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Can Symptoms Of Egg Intolerance Mimic Those Of Being Glutened?


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#16 nutritionguy

 
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Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:27 AM

Food is digested into small particles in the digestive tract.  I don't think that your "physical difference on a molecular level" argument is valid.   Have you studied any biochemistry?  That would be helpful to your understanding here.

Yes, I have--I have studied biochemistry, and I have a BS with Honor from the California Institute of Technology.


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#17 dilettantesteph

 
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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:22 AM

That's where I did my post doc.  Is your degree in biochemistry?  Are you telling me that the protective molecules are chemically bonded to the omega 6 fatty acids such that they are still in physical proximity after the digestion that takes place in the stomach?  What are these protective molecules called?


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#18 nutritionguy

 
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Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:29 PM

That's where I did my post doc.  Is your degree in biochemistry?  Are you telling me that the protective molecules are chemically bonded to the omega 6 fatty acids such that they are still in physical proximity after the digestion that takes place in the stomach?  What are these protective molecules called?

My undergraduate degree is in biology.   As for protective molecules and physical proximity, I am basically referring to molecules and chemical reactions that most readily occur in a liquified medium.  Solid food (such as vegetables cooked in olive oil) needs to be digested, broken down, and liqufied in the stomach before it absorbed.  In my mind's eye, I visualize egg fats (omega 6's and omega 3's) being digested and coming in contact with (likely inflammed or previously damaged) mucusal epithelium or submucosa temporally close together.  Because of the temporal closeness, chemical reactions (inflammatory and anti-inflammatory) can be affected by the relative concentrations of the omega 6 and omega 3 fatty acids (ie: a 15 to 1 ratio fosters the reactions promoted by the omega 6's).  For olives, the omega 6's and the protective molecules (phenols like hydroxytyrosol and oleuropein, as well as other molecules that have antioxidant activity) are also temporally digested at the same time because they are present in the same whole food.  For vegetables cooked in olive oil, the olive oil gets absorbed into and onto the vegetables, and the two are digested together.  For high omega 6 eggs and vegetables cooked in olive oil, the two foods (which together are effectively not one whole food) are not digested and absorbed simultaneously (ie: the omega 6's from the eggs and the protective molecules from the olive oil saturated vegetables) hit the mucosa and submucosa at different times and in different locations).  In addition, I would like to point out that because digested food is a mixture of solubilized molecules and undigestable fiber, I seriously doubt that all of the molecules in this mixture are evenly dispersed as one would expect if all constituents (including fiber) were solubilized and broken down into small molecules (ie: like sodium chloride in water).  


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#19 dilettantesteph

 
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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:58 PM

Let me make sure that I understand.  If I cook eggs and vegetables in olive oil, the vegetables will absorb the oil and the two are digested together.  The eggs, also cooked in olive oil, do not absorb the oil and so do not digest together with the other parts.  I'm afraid that doesn't make any sense to me.  Why would eggs absorb oil less than vegetables?  Do you have some study which shows that?

 

The food goes into the stomach at the same time.  The stomach is an acidic environment filled with digestive enzymes and the food is broken up and churned around.  I can't see how it wouldn't be mixed together.

 

Did you do further formal study after your biology degree?


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#20 nutritionguy

 
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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:16 PM

Let me make sure that I understand.  If I cook eggs and vegetables in olive oil, the vegetables will absorb the oil and the two are digested together.  The eggs, also cooked in olive oil, do not absorb the oil and so do not digest together with the other parts.  I'm afraid that doesn't make any sense to me.  Why would eggs absorb oil less than vegetables?  Do you have some study which shows that?

 

The food goes into the stomach at the same time.  The stomach is an acidic environment filled with digestive enzymes and the food is broken up and churned around.  I can't see how it wouldn't be mixed together.

 

Did you do further formal study after your biology degree?

This is my hypothesis:  The protective molecules in the olive oil protect against the omega-6's in the olive oil; the vegetables have nothing that needs protecting against.  The omega 3's in eggs from grass fed chickens protect against omega 6's in these same eggs on a one to one basis.  The omega 3's in the eggs from grain fed chickens are markedly outnumbered by the omega 6's in these same eggs (15 to 1 according to the USDA study you brought to my attention).  The protective molecules in the olive oil do not protect against additional omega 6's in the eggs from grain fed chickens.

 

Regarding further formal study I have done, I would prefer for personal reasons not to go into that at the present time.  But I can assure you that my education and training beyond my undergraduate degree are quite solid.  On the other hand, if the citation of additional formal study might influence you to more seriously consider what I am proposing, I would strongly urge you to get the following book:  "Anti-Cancer:  A New Way of Life" by David Servan-Schreiber, M.D., PhD.  The physician who wrote this book developed a relatively aggressive type of brain cancer (glioblastoma multiforme) during his psychiatric residency, and went through surgery and chemotherapy only to have his tumor come back a few years later.  Faced with a poor prognosis, he then decided to use all the latest knowledge in nutritional research to devise a diet that could slow the growth of his tumor.  And he successfully went on for the next 10 years, living an active and productive life.  Quite remarkable in my book.  Reading his book was the first time I was exposed to the latest experimental research on omega-6 fatty acids.  And the interesting thing is that I have seen individuals with cancer or autoimmune diseases benefit from his recommendations.  On the other hand, I will be the first to admit that there is much that I still have to learn.  That being said, I suspect that with your scientific background, you know as well as I do that observation is frequently the first step in the process of making new discoveries.


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#21 GF Lover

 
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Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:27 AM

This is all very interesting.  Also interesting that the man died of Brain Cancer !!  Just to be up-front, I am a skeptic of miracle cancer treatments.

 

Colleen


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#22 dilettantesteph

 
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Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:29 AM

Nutrition is not my area of expertise.  I was wondering if it was yours.  Generally, I don't believe one person's ideas whether or not they are dealing with a very difficult disease.  I like to read the original research papers and see if it looks like the study was well done.  I like to look at the consensus of the experts in the field.  This idea of things not mixing in the stomach is one that I don't believe is widespread.  Why otherwise would we be advised to add flax seed and other supplements to our diets?  

 

It looks like Servan-Schreiber lead an exemplary life.  I hope that your interest in this man doesn't come from a cancer diagnosis.  I wish you the best.


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#23 dilettantesteph

 
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Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:31 AM

This is all very interesting.  Also interesting that the man died of Brain Cancer !!  Just to be up-front, I am a skeptic of miracle cancer treatments.

 

Colleen

 

You and me both.


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#24 Gemini

 
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Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:19 PM

I heard an interview on the radio a few years back that this man did and he detailed his journey after diagnosis. He originally was from France, if I remember correctly. After receiving treatment for his cancer, he was visiting family back home in France, and one friend of his asked what he was doing to keep the cancer from coming back.  He told them of all the fancy treatments he was receiving back in the States but again, his friend asked what he was doing that would really help.  I guess this guy worked all the time and admitted his diet was not good. In other words, he was burning the candle at both ends, as far as his health was concerned.  This started his journey of learning about nutrition and learning better habits to help him in his fight against the cancer he had.

 

He mentioned nothing about eggs but just went on to say he started eating a much healthier diet, got more sleep and all those things you do when you are sick and trying to get well.  I did not know he had passed away but the cancer he had was pretty aggressive and I don't think better nutrition, more sleep and obsessing about fats in eggs would have helped him much. This type of cancer is usually fatal for the vast majority of people who have it, unfortunately.  


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#25 nutritionguy

 
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Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:41 PM

Nutrition is not my area of expertise.  I was wondering if it was yours.  Generally, I don't believe one person's ideas whether or not they are dealing with a very difficult disease.  I like to read the original research papers and see if it looks like the study was well done.  I like to look at the consensus of the experts in the field.  This idea of things not mixing in the stomach is one that I don't believe is widespread.  Why otherwise would we be advised to add flax seed and other supplements to our diets?  

 

It looks like Servan-Schreiber lead an exemplary life.  I hope that your interest in this man doesn't come from a cancer diagnosis.  I wish you the best.

 

The research paper below from UCLA was one of the publications I referred to earlier.  If you have an open mind, I would be interested in hearing from you whether or not you think this study was well done:

 

 


Opposing effects of n-6 and n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids on pancreatic cancer growth.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Opposing+effects+of+n-6+and+n-3+polyunsaturated+fatty+acids+on+pancreatic+cancer+growth.


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#26 GF Lover

 
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Posted 02 November 2013 - 10:23 PM

That study has no bearing on why the omega's would mix differently in digestion which is what you are proposing or am I missing something?

 

Colleen


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#27 kareng

 
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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:12 AM

 

The research paper below from UCLA was one of the publications I referred to earlier.  If you have an open mind, I would be interested in hearing from you whether or not you think this study was well done:

 

 


Opposing effects of n-6 and n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids on pancreatic cancer growth.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Opposing+effects+of+n-6+and+n-3+polyunsaturated+fatty+acids+on+pancreatic+cancer+growth.

 

 

 

The original poster's question has nothing to do with your "theories" about omega fats and cancer.  I'm sure there are forums where you can discuss those.  Maybe you could start a topic in the gab chat section for discussions on other topics?

 

Back to the OP's question -

 

Sorry your question got lost in here.  Sure, an intolerance to eggs or soy or really any food could manifest itself like a gluten reaction.

 

You seem to have a lot of possibility for gluten exposure.  Maybe you could work on limiting that for a few months.  Maybe that is all it is?  Or once your gut has healed, maybe you can eat some foods that bothered you before, like eggs.


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#28 dilettantesteph

 
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Posted 03 November 2013 - 07:57 AM

Sorry MuminNorway.  Thanks Kareng for getting back to the point.  Kareng is right, with crumbs all over, it is hard to blame the eggs for sure.  It is so easy to blame the wrong thing.  I tried something again yesterday that I had blamed and I am just fine today.  I have learned by now to try things again.  I figure that it takes 3 times to be sure.  Sometimes it isn't worth the risk, but if I want to be sure, that's what it takes.  If you do decide it is the eggs you could try some from grain free chickens.  They can be hard to find, but they worked for me and my son.  We are both sensitive to very low levels of gluten.


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#29 Mum in Norway

 
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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:24 PM

I found the whole thing about the different ratios of omega3- and 6 to be very interesting, as I study nutriton. Omega 6 is not something bad we need to be protected from at all, but it is true that an inbalace in the ratios of omega 3-6-9 is not good, but very common with a modern western diet. Also, whatever you eat in one meal will become quite liquified, broken down and very well mixed up before getting into the intestine, so if this was the problem it could be solved with just taking a omega 3 supplement along with an eggy meal, and it would be fine. I usually have salmon with my egg (caus it's so tasty!), and that makes no differance, either. There can be some damage done by having an omega ratio that is very off, but it is very unlikely for that to manifest as an intolerance to one speciffic food.

 

I did try eggs several times after making that first post, and it did not go well. So I left it for a few weeks, and tried again very carefully with foods that contain egg, and that now seems fine. I have not yet tried having pure eggs, I think I'll ease in to that later.


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#30 dilettantesteph

 
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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:51 AM

I read up on the omega ratio thing too.  It does look like a good idea to try to optimize your ratio.  I don't think that it could explain why I don't react to pasture raised chicken eggs, but I do react to grain fed chicken eggs, because as you say, things mix in the stomach, or what good would supplementation do?  


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