Communion Wafers

[Jnkmnky]

There are a number of things I have issue with the Catholic Church for, and don't often defend them, but you're showing the all-too-common lack of logic that is confusing correlation with causality. There are a number of reasons why the Catholic priesthood would not be a fair population distribution for statistical comparisons, but none of them are evidence that a belief in any sort of religion, even Catholicism, causes "this sickness".

Yeah, but the Catholic Church has been covering it up. I agree with you that the statistics he wants to tie together are not equal, but the Catholic Church is seriously wrong in moving pedophiles around the country and world rather than expel them. My husband is the type of Catholic that thinks the Church never makes mistakes... that all decisions are "perfect" within the church.... Yeah, well, not me. I think they were co-conspirators on many levels. But I agree with you that the religion didn't cause the criminal behavior. But this is the kind of reaction you get when something this awful is handled so poorly. It's easy to make the entire religion a scapegoat for this when the guys in charge facilitated the perpetuation of the criminal behavior. This is the fallout from their ineffective leadership. I think the same logic that keps the Church from allowing rice hosts, kept the peds in. "Avoid scandal".... the motto of the current leadership.

I'm amazed that this is even an issue.

I mean, I realize that sometimes God is "in the details" and that certain traditions and rituals within the church need to be kept to a certain standard. I'm certainly not advocating that the church should just "chill out" and get rid of all the rules and doctrines that aren't "cool" anymore.

But it's also important to note that during the sixties, Pope Paul VI instituted (is that the right term?) Vatican II in an attempt to make the church more accessible to its followers. As a result, a lot of traditions were thrown out or made optional like masses said in Latin and the "no meat on Friday" dietary rule. Sure, Communion is probably a different issue, but I don't see how it's not possible for the church to allow Celiacs to take Communion. With the pedophilia scandals and people leaving the church in droves (and celibate gay priests who don't molest children being purged to boot!), you'd think the church would want to hold on to the few followers it still has!

There are quite a few Catholics left in the world.

[celiachap]

Also, as much as you point out you need proof of the existence of God, I think you should be tasked to prove He doesn't exist. And that Heaven and Hell don't exist. You can't prove what you believe any more than I can prove to you what I believe. I have faith that God exists. That doesn't require you to believe along with me. You made sweeping accusations against "religion" and don't seem to care that your myopic view of "religion" leaves out all the benefits of the many and varied religions. I won't itemize the list and refute it out, but c'mon- that was lame of you. I think you're really smart, your pov is well thought out and not half-assed *except for that last bit*, but do you really expect to get away with blaming religion for everything wrong with society? Do you really think your logic in denying the existence of a God (ie-where's the proof?) is profound enough to shake the faith of those who believe? Have you considered that the concept of "faith" requires no proof!? See, believers have all sorts of tricks to avoid the "scientific proof" nonsense non-believers like to toss out. ALTHOUGH, you conveniently forget to show the scientific proof you've discovered to prove God, etc, doesn't exist. Seriously, have you contemplated the enormity of eradicating all religion from the planet with your conviction that God doesn't exist? I would definitely need proof. And it would have to be like, really incredible proof.

I was raised by a *devout* agnostic....

I cannot, nor can anybody else, prove that "god" does not exist. The burden of proof is on the believer, and NOT believing in a fantasy like god is not a "belief". So, you are absolutely right: I cannot prove that god does not exist. If somebody tells me that they see little green men in the sky, and I do not, I cannot "prove" that they are wrong about seeing the images.

I suspect that there is a "gene", or some other inherited condition, that causes people to be suseptable to believe in religion as we know it. This is a good possiblity since much, if not most, of the world does not believe in this fashion - at least not in the type that is prevalent in the West. Perhaps one day, scientists can find a "cure" for religion and religiosity (communism, fascism, and other destructive non-religious belief systems). So, until then, the rest of us must try to eradicate the perils of faith sans medicine - similar to the way we handle celiac, since there is at present no scientific cure.

I do not blame religion for everything that is wrong with society - but I do think that it presents the greatest threat to peace, freedom, juistice, scientific thought, mental health and, last but not least, the continuation of life on this planet.

That's enough for me - I'm out of here for now!

[darkangel]

Getting back on topic, Jesus himself rebuked the Pharisees for obsessing over details and missing the big picture. (Matthew 23:23) When he established the communion ceremony he said, "Do this in remembrance of me." I feel it's more important to have your thoughts centered on him and his sacrifice, to have your heart right, than to get hung up on the details. I'm not Catholic (obviously), but even in my non-denominational church, there have been issues in the past over one cup or several, individual wafers or whole sheets of unleavened bread. Should we have music during communion or should there be silence? I think all of these things are less important than having your heart and mind in the right place.

When communion is served each Sunday, I break off the tiniest crumb of the cracker. Often there isn't even really anything to swallow, but I am participating and remembering, as commanded. I can't believe God would want anyone to deliberately ingest something harmful to their health. You obey his word as you're able. I know this is an extreme example, but think of the days of religious oppression behind the Iron Curtain. If the correct supplies for worship were not available and any practice of religion forbidden, would you not do the best you could with what you have? And would your worship not be acceptable to God? He looks at you heart, not your body and its limitations.

[Jnkmnky]

I cannot, nor can anybody else, prove that "god" does not exist. The burden of proof is on the believer, and NOT believing in a fantasy like god is not a "belief". So, you are absolutely right: I cannot prove that god does not exist. If somebody tells me that they see little green men in the sky, and I do not, I cannot "prove" that they are wrong about seeing the images.

I suspect that there is a "gene", or some other inherited condition, that causes people to be suseptable to believe in religion as we know it. This is a good possiblity since much, if not most, of the world does not believe in this fashion - at least not in the type that is prevalent in the West. Perhaps one day, scientists can find a "cure" for religion and religiosity (communism, fascism, and other destructive non-religious belief systems). So, until then, the rest of us must try to eradicate the perils of faith sans medicine - similar to the way we handle celiac, since there is at present no scientific cure.

I do not blame religion for everything that is wrong with society - but I do think that it presents the greatest threat to peace, freedom, juistice, scientific thought, mental health and, last but not least, the continuation of life on this planet.

That's enough for me - I'm out of here for now!

The burden of proof is NOT on the believer just because you say so.

In anycase, here's what "proved" God exists... for me. My fiance got me a present and told me he got me something and that I'd never guess what it was. We were talking on the phone in separate states. Anyway, I am really good at guessing gifts. He said there was no way I'd ever figure this one out. I said I was sure I could. He kept taunting me, saying I would never guess this one. I was alone in my apartment which I rented with another girl, and I heard a man's voice tell me what the gift was. I jumped up out of my chair, looking around because I thought there was someone in the apt with me- my roommate was gone for spring break. I said what the gift was, and my fiance was silent. I yelled it again and was still looking around the apartment, quite freaked out. My fiance said, "That's impossible. How could you have guessed that?" Well, that's when I heard, "Anything's possible with God." I was so freaked out, I yelled at him "anything's possible with God! Shut up and don't say anything else or I'll hear it again!" So he shut up and I was totally freaked out, but I will never doubt God exists again. I was a typical college student at the time, raised with no religious beliefs and not in anyway expecting to have God tell me what the gift was that my fiance had just gotten me 700 miles away. But it didn't happen to you, so do with my story what you will. I think it's important to point out that God has a weird sense of humor. The gift was so ridiculous, and to think, God ... with all the things He could have said to me *like how to promote world peace, cure disease, or the lottery numbers!*... no, he told me what the gift was. And I haven't heard from Him since... But when things get really bad, I think, God even paid attention to the nonsense gift I was getting... He certainly cares about me now when things suck. You could accuse me of being nuts and hearing voices... from a very basic pov, that's what happened. But the voice was right. Now that's weird. Even a defective Gene couldn't have nailed what the gift was. And I don't have a history of mental illness, never heard voices before and not since. I highlighted "mental health" above because I guess anyone who reads this will think I'm nuts!

[celiachap]

The burden of proof is NOT on the believer just because you say so.

In anycase, here's what "proved" God exists... for me. My fiance got me a present and told me he got me something and that I'd never guess what it was. We were talking on the phone in separate states. Anyway, I am really good at guessing gifts. He said there was no way I'd ever figure this one out. I said I was sure I could. He kept taunting me, saying I would never guess this one. I was alone in my apartment which I rented with another girl, and I heard a man's voice tell me what the gift was. I jumped up out of my chair, looking around because I thought there was someone in the apt with me- my roommate was gone for spring break. I said what the gift was, and my fiance was silent. I yelled it again and was still looking around the apartment, quite freaked out. My fiance said, "That's impossible. How could you have guessed that?" Well, that's when I heard, "Anything's possible with God." I was so freaked out, I yelled at him "anything's possible with God! Shut up and don't say anything else or I'll hear it again!" So he shut up and I was totally freaked out, but I will never doubt God exists again. I was a typical college student at the time, raised with no religious beliefs and not in anyway expecting to have God tell me what the gift was that my fiance had just gotten me 700 miles away. But it didn't happen to you, so do with my story what you will. I think it's important to point out that God has a weird sense of humor. The gift was so ridiculous, and to think, God ... with all the things He could have said to me *like how to promote world peace, cure disease, or the lottery numbers!*... no, he told me what the gift was. And I haven't heard from Him since... But when things get really bad, I think, God even paid attention to the nonsense gift I was getting... He certainly cares about me now when things suck. You could accuse me of being nuts and hearing voices... from a very basic pov, that's what happened. But the voice was right. Now that's weird. Even a defective Gene couldn't have nailed what the gift was. And I don't have a history of mental illness, never heard voices before and not since. I highlighted "mental health" above because I guess anyone who reads this will think I'm nuts!

OK, it's time to let the cat out of the bag. I placed that thought in your mind, because I am God. Thank you for believing in me. I really appreciate your faith - especially in these times. If you do not believe that I'm God, according to your logic, you must prove that I am NOT (God). If you cannot, then I will appreciate a tithe of 10% of your salary each week, payable to my Swiss Bank account. The number of the account will be revealed to you soon.

Yours,

God

P.S. my Son says "Hello"!

[Jnkmnky]

OK, it's time to let the cat out of the bag. I placed that thought in your mind, because I am God. Thank you for believing in me. I really appreciate your faith - especially in these times. If you do not believe that I'm God, according to your logic, you must prove that I am NOT (God). If you cannot, then I will appreciate a tithe of 10% of your salary each week, payable to my Swiss Bank account. The number of the account will be revealed to you soon.

Yours,

God

P.S. my Son says "Hello"!

Hahahaha! Ok, now tell me the lottery numbers for this week. The Jackpot is 65mill... I promise to give you that 10%....

[celiachap]

Hahahaha! Ok, now tell me the lottery numbers for this week. The Jackpot is 65mill... I promise to give you that 10%....

God cannot violate his own nature by cheating, fraud, lies or misrepresentation of the truth – despite what those damned infidels say about my words revealed to the authors of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. God advises you to put your investments in sound places – such as municipal and government bonds, treasury shares, and, if you’re not yet in retirement, a small percentage in an S&P-type equity, or similar, fund.

God thanks you in advance for your donation(s) to his Swiss Bank Account.

J.C. says “Hello”.

[tarnalberry]

But what are you going to do? So the person who told you they didn't think you could have morals and not be religious.... some people live under rocks. That co-worker needs to get out more often. There's a whole bunch of people out there with no religious affiliations that are the most decent, honest, caring bunch you'd ever want to meet.... and then there's a whole bunch of "religious" people out there who are scum. And vice versa. Even Jesus pointed that out *quite scandalously* when he said some of the high priests wouldn't be fit to enter Heaven and then pointed out some low-lifes hanging around where he was preaching and said they were more worthy to enter Heaven.

My only point, which wasn't really backing up celiacchap, was merely pointing out what could be a not uncommon misunderstanding amongst some religious people about the nature of not being religious. This coworker isn't the only one who's expressed the idea that religion is what gives us morals - and many of those people have pretty loud public voices. What I do about it? I life my life morally, but without religious guidance. You're right - there's good and bad people in almost every group. But I wonder how much of the misunderstanding that "oh, if you aren't religious, you're a bad person, because you have no morals. we must save the world from people like you." contributes to these problems we have with religious fanatics who... take things a bit too far.

(As for the catholic church and covering up what some really messed up people did - I totally agree, it is one of the many stupid things the political organization of the church has done. Personally, I think they are stacking the deck against themselves by requiring a vow of celibacy; if nothing else, that is skewing their population towards dangerous extremes. Leaving women out of the clergy doesn't help, but I think the celibacy one is the bigger problem. I also think their teachings on sexuality in general (no, I'm not even primarily talking about hetero/homosexuality) contribute to the problem. But I could spend days talking about all the things (which aren't even strictly speaking, religious) the church does/says that I have an issue with. :-) )

[Jnkmnky]

My only point, which wasn't really backing up celiacchap, was merely pointing out what could be a not uncommon misunderstanding amongst some religious people about the nature of not being religious. This coworker isn't the only one who's expressed the idea that religion is what gives us morals - and many of those people have pretty loud public voices. What I do about it? I life my life morally, but without religious guidance. You're right - there's good and bad people in almost every group. But I wonder how much of the misunderstanding that "oh, if you aren't religious, you're a bad person, because you have no morals. we must save the world from people like you." contributes to these problems we have with religious fanatics who... take things a bit too far.

(As for the catholic church and covering up what some really messed up people did - I totally agree, it is one of the many stupid things the political organization of the church has done. Personally, I think they are stacking the deck against themselves by requiring a vow of celibacy; if nothing else, that is skewing their population towards dangerous extremes. Leaving women out of the clergy doesn't help, but I think the celibacy one is the bigger problem. I also think their teachings on sexuality in general (no, I'm not even primarily talking about hetero/homosexuality) contribute to the problem. But I could spend days talking about all the things (which aren't even strictly speaking, religious) the church does/says that I have an issue with. :-) )

I have Born Again friends who don't think I'm a Christian because I'm Catholic.... They have a difficult time, they tell me, believing I'll go to Hell.... But apparently, I'm going. My BA friends also struggle with the idea that Jews and other non-believers of Jesus are going to Hell...'cause apparently, if you don't accept Jesus, you're going to Hell. So, even if you believed in GOD>> you'd also need to accept Jesus if you expect to avoid Hell. (according to some religions) It all makes my head spin. I really don't get surprised anymore. Even the 70 virgins or whatever it was... I just keep on plugging along. I mess with no one's beliefs. I hang out with a Muslim mom after school while waiting to get the kids, my Born Again friends are learning to chill, my homeschooling Catholic friend has stopped trying to get me to use her Catholic schooling programs during the summer, and my Agnostic mother has made peace with my low-key Catholic beliefs. Oh, and my best friend is a Catholic who was raised by a Jewish mom. I've known them for 10 years, Easter, Christmas's together... I only just found out the mom is Jewish. I was like I just assumed!!!! We were eating lamb together for Easter!!! What was I supposed to think??!!

[debmidge]

Caeli,

We're not always this way! .... Ok.... yes we are when it comes to this topic. Don't hold it against us. This topic releases a lot of emotions and opinions.

Whatever we're talking about, you're welcome to join us so don't let the progression of the topic keep you away.

D.

[celiachap]

Caeli, We're not always this way! .... Ok.... yes we are when it comes to this topic. Don't hold it against us. This topic releases a lot of emotions and opinions. Whatever we're talking about, you're welcome to join us so don't let the progression of the topic keep you away.

My opinions about religion would be the same whether there were people with celiac disease having a problem with communion, or not. I recognized it for what it was long before I had heard of celiac disease. Taking communion is not at the forefront of my disagreements with this religion, as it is a voluntary choice that christians must decide for themselves. The response, or lack of, by the church is just another indication of their lack of regard for the human condition.

[chad from fla]

Aren't there any moderators on this board? This discussion has been off topic for quite some time and I am shocked at the level of disrespect that some people have been resorting to. I'm agnostic but I would never insult someone's religion. (It's called manners!?!?!) And likewise, I would never expect anyone to lecture me on what is happening to me in the afterlife in a secular setting. Some of you need a time out!

Caeli, I apologize that you had to see this. Hopefully someone in charge will put an end to this ugliness soon.

[celiachap]

Aren't there any moderators on this board? This discussion has been off topic for quite some time and I am shocked at the level of disrespect that some people have been resorting to. I'm agnostic but I would never insult someone's religion. (It's called manners!?!?!) And likewise, I would never expect anyone to lecture me on what is happening to me in the afterlife in a secular setting. Some of you need a time out!

Caeli, I apologize that you had to see this. Hopefully someone in charge will put an end to this ugliness soon.

What are you "apologizing" for?

The man only asked for opinions, and even threw out a few ideas for discussion. If he expected people to only write replies that could in no way be taken as offensive by anybody, including people that are ultra-sensitive to dissenting voices regarding the topic, then he wouldn't have posted the question in the first place. Everybody on this board, regardless of their religious affiliation, or lack of, knows that the disease will not be "cured" by prayer, fasting, self-flagellation, guilt, celibacy, or church attendance. The only way to live healthy with it is to not consume gluten. The title of this section is "Coping with", and that is what the people are doing by participating in discussions. It's just a distraction, and may shed some light on aspects of life with Celiac Disease that ordinarily get overlooked.

[chad from fla]

What are you "apologizing" for?

The man only asked for opinions, and even threw out a few ideas for discussion. If he expected people to only write replies that could in no way be taken as offensive by anybody, including people that are ultra-sensitive to dissenting voices regarding the topic, then he wouldn't have posted the question in the first place. Everybody on this board, regardless of their religious affiliation, or lack of, knows that the disease will not be "cured" by prayer, fasting, self-flaggelation, guilt, celibacy, or church attendence. The only way to live healthy with it is to not consume gluten.

He asked for opinions about what to do as a Catholic. Not whether or not he should be a Catholic. Nor did he ask what non-Catholics think of his religion. If you don't agree with his beliefs. Fine. But there's no need to be insulting. I don't see how that helps anyone "cope" with anything.

And where did ANYONE on this board ever suggest that we cure ourselves through prayer, fasting, self-flagellation, guilt celibacy or church attendance?

Moderators?????

[Caeli]

Well here I am (caeli), the initiator of this friendly discussion!

There is nothing new in what I have read - I've heard it all before and expect I will for at least the rest of my life.

I thank those whow have shared their experience, advice and best wishes.

I thank those who have shared their frustrations and anger with the Church. Believe it or not, I too have some anger when it comes to some of the bungling of the institutional Church. But I attribute the bungling to the human side not to God. Hope reigns eternal!

Anyhow, once again, thanks for the laughs and reminding me that nothing ever changes! All of us have our hurts which we need to vent them occasionally. The challenge is to listen with a third ear to hear what we are really saying. Unfortunately, like being a coeliac, there are not always simple answers to be found. I've always found a good sense of humour important in my job! Keep smiling

Kind regards to all!

[jackbarny]

I am a devout Catholic and I know that I can receive low gluten wheaten hosts. My question are:

1. Can a Coeliac tolerate low gluten hosts? I beleive the allowable gluten ratio is 200 (I think this refers to 200 parts per million).

2. If you can tolerate a low gluten host, why can't a person receive a very small portion of a normal wheaten host? In other words, only ingest a very small portion of the host, perhaps half a fingernal or less?

Hi, I'm catholic too and my church offers me gluten-free free wafers for communion and they are made from corn.

I'm the only one who has celiac disease in our parish so I have to go tell them I'm there so I can receive the host.

Som catholic churches in the area won't allow gluten-free free wafers. Why I don't understand the reasoning. Jack

[Scott Adams]

Please avoid religious debates/discussions on this board--it is only to be used to discuss celiac disease and the gluten-free diet. There are many other boards on the Internet devoted to such topics.

Thank you!

Scott

[domineske]

Regarding communion for Catholics...

It's my understanding that there is no approved gluten-free wafer that can be used by Catholics, only the low gluten-wafer made by the Benedictine nuns. Although we don't understand this "rule", as Catholics we accept it. We usually just receive the wine, although not from the Priest's chalice since he adds a piece of the host.

Our priest (who is a very special man) spent time with my daughter teaching her the "spiritual communion", designed for situations when we desire but CANNOT receive communion. It's a simple prayer and we believe it is just as valid as any other form of communion.

"A spiritual communion is made when we fervently desire to receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and then lovingly embrace Him as if we had actually done so. This can be done at Mass when for some reason we are not able to receive the Sacrament or at any time during the day."