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Genetic Origins Of Celiac


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#1 gfp

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:15 AM

All these threads on "Where do you come from" and trying to link that to celiac got me thinking.

Take any European country and it is non homogenious. There is no French gene pool or Italian gene pool... etc.
A Northern Italian is related much more closly with a Scandanavian than someone who's family have spent 1000 years inbreeding in Napoli but probably share the Scandanavian genes from Normans in Sicly,
So Someone saying they have Italian genes is just pointess. There is NO Italian gene... NO Irish gene ... etc. etc.

Scandanavian genes are somewhat purer if you ignore the Mongol and Slavic influence. (very few people wanted to invade the inhospitable North)

However this got me thinking... about from a European perspective pre-Roman gene pools.

Growing wheat or rye is a labour intensive task and one which is almost impossible to survive on without a community. Ever since 10 cavemen decided if they banded together and picked up sticks they could kill 100 individuals and steal their goats, women and whatever the "group" has become increasingly dominant in society.

(On top of this Scandanavian society is also rather different, the people are much more self reliant and traditionally prefer not to speak to anyone outside their immediate family and only then only if strictly necassary. Many West coast Norwegians would ideally like to live on their own mountain and see nooone (Xenophobes guide to Norwegians - written by a Norwegian) and if they ever do see anyone then they don't want to say much except "this is my mountain - go away you are in my personal space" Personal space in Norwegian terms means I can't see you or hear you.) or to put it bluntly Norwegians prefer to be alone.... and most of them still are living in communities of 100-200 ... scattered about.

Anyway....

It makes me think that the process of cultivating wheat is also linked to the ability to live in a community.

Up until the last 200 years in Europe it was completely possible to live outside of society.
People who didn't want to be a part of it had a whole load of possible paths. They could become hunters and only interect to trade or subsistance farmers in an isolated valley or charcola burners living in the woods and forests... etc. etc. ... in reality a whole set of traditional crafts that don't involve living in a town or villiage and only occaisionally having to interact with people.

These people were often regarded as "strange" .... the stuff of legends and kids tales. The witch in the woods or the lumberjack who chops up kids ... basically the stuff of the Grimm brothers or Hans Christian Andersen.

What if these were just people with a natural tendency against group mentality.

Back to the cavemen... and early pre-history!
You only need a few thousand people to wipe out a hundred thousand individuals.
People view the Roman invasion of Gaul as a mass of well disciplined Romans but in reality Julius had 3 legions.
A few thousand legionairres masacred hundreds of thousands of individual Celts.

The same thing crops up again and again in history ... a few thousand organised people either genociding completely or killing the males and taking the women of countless peoples.

Indeed we have now got to the point where "group mentality" is the norm and those who lack this are considered to be mentally deviant. I think the PC term is "Non Neurologically typical" but it means the same.

Each time the "NT group mentality" settled an area they planted wheat ....those who couldn't tolerate wheat died out with a higher rate being sickly, failing to conceive or miscarrying such that the original idea of small family groups became a minority in Europe and the only ones carrying on the non Group gene were the ones with limited social interaction living outside this society.
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#2 queenofhearts

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:21 AM

What a fascinating theory! And now I understand about those Norwegian batchelor farmers.
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The Queen of Hearts,
She made some tarts
All on a summer's day.
The Knave of Hearts,
He stole the tarts
And took them clean away.

Diagnosed at age 49 by biopsy 31 May 2006

Learning how to bake those tarts gluten-free!

#3 gfp

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:49 AM

What a fascinating theory! And now I understand about those Norwegian batchelor farmers.

There is a whole lot of extra stuff I missed out.
If you see a traditional Norwegain costume Jewelry is very important.... the women folk needed to be able to take their wealth with them when the men folk went "a viking".

Vikings never built permanant villiages ... they used wood even when in many places wood was scarcer than stone.

The whole concept of viking was to provide more space for the sons to start families ... because the land and sea could only support low population densities. Whenever Vikings did build permanant cities it was usually in combination with the local farmers such as Celts in Ireland.

The Viking colony of Greenland died off mainly it is thought because they would not interact with the native inuit.
While Vikings starved the inuit survived with their traditional methods.

The starkest evidence of this is them eating their prized hunting dogs while we know contemporaneous Inuit's had no food shortages.

On the other hand genetic testing of a country shows that the average European person has little in common with someone form the other end of the country. Indeed there is less genetic diversity between an Australian aboriginal and a inuit (or any two far flung humans you can think of) than in a single troop of chimps.

Further the size of a chimp troop is genetically controlled.
Those from big troops will stay in big troops ... those from small ones stay as small groups.
If a big troop meets a small one they genocide it.
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Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. (JC, De Bello Gallico Liber III/XVIII)

#4 queenofhearts

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 05:19 AM

There is a whole lot of extra stuff I missed out.
If you see a traditional Norwegain costume Jewelry is very important.... the women folk needed to be able to take their wealth with them when the men folk went "a viking".


I saw an exhibit at the Met years ago of Viking gold. It was astonishing-- the sheer bulk of gold-- I'd never seen anything like it. Interesting to know the reason behind it.
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The Queen of Hearts,
She made some tarts
All on a summer's day.
The Knave of Hearts,
He stole the tarts
And took them clean away.

Diagnosed at age 49 by biopsy 31 May 2006

Learning how to bake those tarts gluten-free!

#5 cgilsing

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 05:25 AM

Wow that is interesting! I had always wondered why there was such a Celiac presence in Italy! I just googled it and read about the Norman invasion of southern Italy! Cool!
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#6 gfp

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 05:50 AM

Wow that is interesting! I had always wondered why there was such a Celiac presence in Italy! I just googled it and read about the Norman invasion of southern Italy! Cool!

Thats not really what I'm saying....

Indeed the Vikings invaded most areas of looting and they were not exactly know for consentual sex with the locals.

The Longobards invaded Northern italy... and the goths and visigoths invaded right down to Rome.

but hardly before the Romans had already spread their DNA thoughout most of Europe and the Middle east and exchanged DNA with all of these cultures.

If you choose Italy (and its history is well documented so its a good bet) then follow the whole history from 10,000BC through to 1847.

Or http://www.glutenfre...s...st&p=191151

that covers the basics of genetics on who we call Italian.

The celiac presence in Italy has only one reason, they screen all pre-school children.
The results of screening are EXACTLY the same as the US... 1:133 and this varies little throughout of most of Europe.


So

I am curious to know how Celiac's is related, in the majority, to people of an Irish background. Everyone I have spoken too, who have the disease, have some Irish background. I just want to know if there is a connection. If you have no Irish background, please let me know what nationalities you are.


Is meaningless..... possibly half of caucasian Americans claim some Irish background.
and of those that do not 1:25 children in the US are not the child of the presumed father.

I can trace part of my family tree back to 1219 ... that part is all "English" ... but the other parts all have everything from Irish, Jewish and possible Spanish... but stick me in Scandanavia and everyone is convinced I'm an (albeit short) typical Scandanvian. this is hardly suprising the Danish ruled the Nothern part of England for 400 years .. and even then they eventually met up and lost to the vikings in the south.

the battle of Hastings so often referred to as the last time the english were invaded is a farce, it was two vikings !
One who called himself English and the other who called himself Norman French...
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Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. (JC, De Bello Gallico Liber III/XVIII)

#7 queenofhearts

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 05:56 AM

Just curious, are you a historian by profession, or do you study all this avocationally?
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The Queen of Hearts,
She made some tarts
All on a summer's day.
The Knave of Hearts,
He stole the tarts
And took them clean away.

Diagnosed at age 49 by biopsy 31 May 2006

Learning how to bake those tarts gluten-free!

#8 cgilsing

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 06:05 AM

Sorry to be off topic! I don't think I'm really awake yet! :P I'm going to ask a follow-up question though that's a bit off topic too...sorry but you seem to be knowledgable! So is the percentage of people with celiac disease the same in Northern Europe as well? Or is it higher? If not then how do they link celiac disease to Northern European decent?
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#9 gfp

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 06:11 AM

Just curious, are you a historian by profession, or do you study all this avocationally?

:lol:

You missed the 50 questions thread! ;)

41. WHAT BOOK ARE YOU READING? I always read 4-5 books in parallel, Presently Tristram Shandy, Harry Potter (in French), Hugo Italian in 30 days (yeah right), Stephen hawkins " brief history of time" (toilet - gluten nights), Wilber Smith "the third prophet" in French.. don't know the exact title, Last chance to see Douglas Adams, Seutonius (latin and English versions concurrently), Voltaire, letters regarding the English nation (original English), Who dares Sells and Small business startup guide (work like), The Gallery, John Horne burns (very slowly because its a rere 1st ed. and this restricts me carying it around)
Cripes....


Actually I'm actually reading a couple more... a " Kafka for beginners" .. slowly making my way through the complete works of Dodgson... (and have been for a year) ...


meanwhile me thinks of a way to post a photo of "the Gallery" from the book which is in Naples and doesn't refer to my website.....(wouldn't want to break any more rules!)

methinks google images should do it! google Galleria napoli (but I bet my photo's are better)
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Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. (JC, De Bello Gallico Liber III/XVIII)

#10 Jestgar

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:01 AM

gfp,

I'm a little curious about where you get your genetic information from. We study the effect of SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) on gene responses. There are huge differences in the SNP profiles of the different races, and people are beginning to investigate the profiles of same race populations from different locations.

If I look at one person's SNP profile from three genes, it;s possible that I can tell that this is a white individual with either asian or native american (same gene pool) influences. I can easily identify people who believe themselves to be all white but very likely have a not-to-distant african ancestor. And that's from three genes. We each have thousands of genes. I think it's very likely that every, even slightly inbred population is entirely different from one another.
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#11 Camille'sBigSister

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:17 AM

Hi, gfp!

Very interesting concept! Have you read Arthur Koestler"s controversial but thought-provoking "The Thirteenth Tribe"? From the jacket: ". . . traces the history of the ancient Khazar Empire, a major but almost forgotten power in Eastern Europe, which in the Dark Ages became converted to Judaism. . . . ." Koestler provides extensive References and Bibliography sections. I don't know for sure, but imagine it's way out of print. I bought my hardback copy in the late 1970s or early 1980s.

I don't "get" Kafka, but maybe I'll try "Kafka for Beginners." :P

Just as an aside: During the Medieval Warm Period, farmers in Scandinavia were able to grow wheat at much more northern latitudes, and they grew oats at latitudes more northern still. About those Vikings in the Greenland settlement: Perhaps they would have survived, even after the seas froze and cut them off from the rest of the world during the onset of the Little Ice Age, were it not for the rigid mindset of their religion. They doomed their entire colony to death because they refused to associate with the "skralings" - the so-called heathen savages, whose survival skills in that frigid climate could have saved the Norse.

I have a friend in Paris whose parents were White Russians, who fled to Paris to escape the Bolsheviks. Her father, Sasha, was still alive when I met her, so I got to know him also. Sasha was fluent in 5 (or 7 - can't remember which) languages, and I drooled over his library! He would buy a book in all the languages of which he had command (provided that the book was available in those languages), because, as he explained, each language had its own nuances, and by putting them all together he got a complete picture of the author's intent.

I've enjoyed reading your perspective on the widespread prevalence of the celiac gene in Europe. :)

Cissie
(Definitely in the Non-NT category! :lol: )
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#12 gfp

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 09:04 AM

gfp,

I'm a little curious about where you get your genetic information from. We study the effect of SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) on gene responses. There are huge differences in the SNP profiles of the different races, and people are beginning to investigate the profiles of same race populations from different locations.

If I look at one person's SNP profile from three genes, it;s possible that I can tell that this is a white individual with either asian or native american (same gene pool) influences. I can easily identify people who believe themselves to be all white but very likely have a not-to-distant african ancestor. And that's from three genes. We each have thousands of genes. I think it's very likely that every, even slightly inbred population is entirely different from one another.

That is rather my point.

Part of this comes from looking into various haplotype markers (a while ago) and part of it comes from knowing a bit of history and a very large part comes from having worked with todays (or mostly yesterdays) military in 3rd world countries.

You can add other's bits of common knowledge... for instance the English (really meaning plantangenet) whilst invading Scotland made a law whereby the "English" lord had first rights on sleeping with a bride before she married... but even in normal circumstances the "Lord of the house" usually got first dibs on serving girls.....

Add this to the fact that even today 1:25 presumed named fathers on birth certificates are not the actual biological father. This has been happening for thousands of years ...

People for instance fail to realise that aincient Rome had a large Hindu trading population...
or the effect that Alexander had.... on gene mixing through the near east.

As far as scientists know, no particular genes make a person Irish or Chinese or Zulu or Navajo. These are cultural labels, not genetic ones. People in those populations are more likely to have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other. (There may be rare variations, however, that are found only in some populations.) This cannot be very surprising, in light of the vast extent of intermarriage among human populations, now and throughout history and prehistory. There is no such thing as a genetically "pure" human population.


I got interested because I have a few Basque friends. However even though they are mainly recognisable by facial and physical characterists, premature balding pinning this down via genetics is pretty far off.

Another area of interest is for instance the spread of a certain religion.
If one takes a specific like the Iris goddess one can track its evolution through the mediterranean... from Minoan and phoenecian origins to deviations in Egypt or Carthage. Specific changes can be mapped and linked to trade..

The human genome project and HapMap being some resources (sorry trying to stick to the linking rule here)

Anyway.... One of the problems of studying history other than is that its written by winners is it extremely biassed. The English regard Napoleon rather poorly, the Napolese rather differently. When Napoleon invaded Napoli with his French army thousands of local girls would have traded genes either for fun, money or against their will... but its pretty much certain that they did! When the Germans occupied France the same and when the Americans were stationed in the UK during WWII a enormous amount of gene trading was taking place.

The idea of Romans occupying Gaul for some 500 years and not trading genes is pretty much laughable, not to mention many of the Romans were not genetically Roman at all anyway....

When you look at history from a particular place as opposed to the "country" way its taught at school then its rather obvious that a "proto-Italian" in sicly with carthaginian heritage is about as related to a Estrucian in Lazio as he is to a phoenecian, indeed his most direct link is through phoenicia.

Ghadaffi hosts the Africa for the Africans summit every year.... yeah sure the Arabs are indiginous?

Sorry... if that unspecific but if you ask a specific question (like origin of the goths) then I can answer that one specifically.
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Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. (JC, De Bello Gallico Liber III/XVIII)

#13 Jestgar

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 09:21 AM

Part of this comes from looking into various haplotype markers (a while ago)

People in those populations are more likely to have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.


Yes, but my point is, when looked at in combinations, there are very clear haplotype trails.

Here is link to an interesting article regarding human diversity.

http://friesian.com/trees.htm
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"But then, in all honesty, if scientists don't play god, who will?"
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My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating.
- Ashleigh Brilliant

Leap, and the net will appear.

#14 CarlaB

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 09:25 AM

Ugh, I wish the brain fog were lighter so I could follow this ... I look just like my father, so I'm one of the 24:25 ... 1/8 English at the very least. 1/8 French at least. The other 75%, who knows? I'll try to participate more in the intellectual aspects in a couple days ... I think I would have been more of a hunter/gatherer than a farmer, but I'm a very social type :) I know, I know, I'm waaayy out there ...
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#15 gfp

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 09:30 AM

Hi, gfp!

Very interesting concept! Have you read Arthur Koestler"s controversial but thought-provoking "The Thirteenth Tribe"? From the jacket: ". . . traces the history of the ancient Khazar Empire, a major but almost forgotten power in Eastern Europe, which in the Dark Ages became converted to Judaism. . . . ." Koestler provides extensive References and Bibliography sections. I don't know for sure, but imagine it's way out of print. I bought my hardback copy in the late 1970s or early 1980s.

Not specifically but I am familiar with the Khazar's... most specifically from their role as allies to Constantinople. But also in reference to Jegstar's question....
The specific type (49a,f Haplotype 11) haplotype is thought to have been introduced eastwards prior to the rise of the Khazar nation but the same migration is also historically associated with patrimonial societies. The Khazar are meant to have had female leaders and advisors for instance and the association with art is seen in the decline of the mother goddess dominance to male godheads.

I don't "get" Kafka, but maybe I'll try "Kafka for Beginners." :P

That's why I'm reading it.... :D not that I can understand German anyway!

Just as an aside: During the Medieval Warm Period, farmers in Scandinavia were able to grow wheat at much more northern latitudes, and they grew oats at latitudes more northern still.


Yes and no... I don't think they relied on wheat.... and incidentally even today there is a particular area of fruit tree orchards along a specific Fjord. (Between Stavanger and Bergen and close to the temperate rain forest)
but not the way the Romans relied on grain....

About those Vikings in the Greenland settlement: Perhaps they would have survived, even after the seas froze and cut them off from the rest of the world during the onset of the Little Ice Age, were it not for the rigid mindset of their religion. They doomed their entire colony to death because they refused to associate with the "skralings" - the so-called heathen savages, whose survival skills in that frigid climate could have saved the Norse.

I was kinda trying to skip that part :D

I have a friend in Paris whose parents were White Russians, who fled to Paris to escape the Bolsheviks. Her father, Sasha, was still alive when I met her, so I got to know him also. Sasha was fluent in 5 (or 7 - can't remember which) languages, and I drooled over his library! He would buy a book in all the languages of which he had command (provided that the book was available in those languages), because, as he explained, each language had its own nuances, and by putting them all together he got a complete picture of the author's intent.

Quite a lot of them here still! .....I know quite a few :D

I've enjoyed reading your perspective on the widespread prevalence of the celiac gene in Europe. :)

Cissie
(Definitely in the Non-NT category! :lol: )

Thanks.... but its open to firther input, like you just did.
I literally just started typing... checked a few dates and stuff... so its a bit rambling....
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Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. (JC, De Bello Gallico Liber III/XVIII)




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