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Genetic Origins Of Celiac


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31 replies to this topic

#16 mle_ii

 
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Posted 24 August 2006 - 02:26 PM

Rather interesting stuff.

What I also found interesting that I learned about recently is that Irish Setters (the dog) are known to have Celiac. Supposedly this is what nearly brought them to extinction. The addition of wheat as a filler in dog food nearly brought them in.

I have no idea how this could possibly be related at all, but I did find it rather ironic with the talk of Irish genes and celiac. :)

Mike
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#17 debmidge

 
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Posted 25 August 2006 - 01:28 AM

the battle of Hastings so often referred to as the last time the english were invaded is a farce, it was two vikings !
One who called himself English and the other who called himself Norman French...



Who are these two Vikings?



I have a friend in Paris whose parents were White Russians, who fled to Paris to escape the Bolsheviks. Her father, Sasha, was still alive when I met her, so I got to know him also. Sasha was fluent in 5 (or 7 - can't remember which) languages, and I drooled over his library! He would buy a book in all the languages of which he had command (provided that the book was available in those languages), because, as he explained, each language had its own nuances, and by putting them all together he got a complete picture of the author's intent.




Cissie: Hi

Other than vodka with cream, what is a person who is a White Russian?

Deb
  • 0
Husband has Celiac Disease and
Husband misdiagnosed for 27 yrs -
The misdiagnosis was: IBS or colitis
Mis-diagnosed from 1977 to 2003 by various gastros including one of the largest,
most prestigious medical groups in northern NJ which constantly advertises themselves as
being the "best." This GI told him it was "all in his head."
Serious Depressive state ensued
Finally Diagnosed with celiac disease in 2003
Other food sensitivities: almost all fruits, vegetables, spices, eggs, nuts, yeast, fried foods, roughage, soy.
Needs to gain back at least 25 lbs. of the 40 lbs pounds he lost - lost a great amout of body fat and muscle
Developed neuropathy in 2005
Now has lymphadema 2006
It is my opinion that his subsequent disorders could have been avoided had he been diagnosed sooner by any of the dozen or so doctors he saw between 1977 to 2003

#18 gfp

 
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Posted 25 August 2006 - 01:33 AM

Yes, but my point is, when looked at in combinations, there are very clear haplotype trails.

Here is link to an interesting article regarding human diversity.

http://friesian.com/trees.htm



Yes, and I really appreciate you help in this (I know your busy now) ....

What I mean firstly is an "Italian genotype" doesn't exist. The genotype pools are much much smaller.

If you choose a single place and simply study the gene trading over 10,000 years then the influences are huge.
Language affinities vastly underestimate this because they only reflect dominant language pools with localisation and dialiectisation.

Back to my Italy example ... Italian has only been spoken in Napoli for a short time. Greek was up to this century the dominant language in Napoli.
Napolese (pretty much incomprehensible to anyone with Roman Italian) reflects French and Spanish (and I would expect the gene pool does equally, if such gene pools existed) but it also reflect the turkik side of the Austrian occupation mixed and hard to seperate from Arabic ... and perhaps traces of cartheginian influenced phoenecian.
Not to mention the influence of Byzantines, Lombards, Normans, Swabians, Angevins, Aragonese.

Napoli was a "greek" villiage before the Romans built Misineum ... but a single decision by Marcus Agrippa (one of the most under estimated architects of the Augustan era) changed this in ine fell swoop....

Historically Augustus' (great Nephew of Giaus Julius) needed to control piracy in the Tyrrhenian Sea. This had previously been ceded by Julius to Crassus as part of the agreement on the 1st triumvirate in order for his support to elect Julius to consul. so it was largely a political descision but one that altered the gene pool of Napoli enormously.

Unperterbed by the fact the area had no drinking water to support the fleet they built it..... and it soon became the largest port in the area and held the largest Roman fleet... quite what this meant so far as the brothels in Napoli and the genetic makeup of the fleet is enormous.

In some respects Napoli's gene pool is of course unique... but in other respects it is a complex mixing of hundreds of different cultural gene pools.
If you were to do this for nearby Ischia and Capri you would again find a different mix....

Capri is expensive and has been for 2000 years! During Roman times the gene pool was very different to Meseneum or Napoli.... you were either a serf or equestrian class to live in Capri.

You can look at different places all over Europe and the middle east in the same way.
York was where constantine (at least 50% serbian ) was crowned emporor.. but he made the seat of his empire Trier (now in Germany) as the Praefectus Praetorio Galliarium Trier was the administrative capital from Morocco to Britian. Once again this created a huge influx of "Roman's" from Spanish to Greek, before it was moved to Arles....

I'm drifting because the point is that I could then relate the history of Arles ... again unique and with an unique influx of genetic material and again creation of the aquaduct at Pont du Gard bringing in a unique gene pool of slaves....

Indeed the Gard area is quite distinct in many ways... from langue d'oc. Culturally and linguistically (grape varieties ... an area of interest for me and also a benificiary of DNA studies - especially at the Univerity of Montpellier halfway from Arles to Gard!), architecturally etc. etc. The architecture is .. well far more solid.. its what you would expect a master stone mason to build for himself... it wouldn't surprise me if we could find some genetic material of the original master masons preserved somewhere and actually trace that back to a component of the present day inhabitants.
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#19 Jestgar

 
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Posted 25 August 2006 - 07:15 AM

I love reading your posts.

On a different aspect of genetics, I recently watched a program on PBS that investigated the domestication of dogs and linked the development of coat colors and floppy ears to aggresion. I'll try to remember which program it was and see if there is a link on the web somewhere.
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#20 Jestgar

 
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Posted 25 August 2006 - 07:38 AM

http://www.freerepub...ws/807641/posts

This is about an experiment where a russian scientist selectively bred the least aggressive foxes. It's a great read.

"Their bodies changed in size and proportions, leading to the appearance of dwarf and giant breeds. The normal pattern of coat color that had evolved as camouflage in the wild altered as well. Many domesticated animals are piebald, completely lacking pigmentation in specific body areas. Hair turned wavy or curly, as it has done in Astrakhan sheep, poodles, domestic donkeys, horses, pigs, goats and even laboratory mice and guinea pigs. Some animals' hair also became longer (Angora type) or shorter (rex type).

Tails changed, too. Many breeds of dogs and pigs carry their tails curled up in a circle or semicircle. Some dogs, cats and sheep have short tails resulting from a decrease in the number of tail vertebrae. Ears became floppy. As Darwin noted in chapter 1 of On the Origin of Species, "not a single domestic animal can be named which has not in some country drooping ears" - a feature not found in any wild animal except the elephant.
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"But then, in all honesty, if scientists don't play god, who will?"
- James Watson

My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating.
- Ashleigh Brilliant

Leap, and the net will appear.

#21 queenofhearts

 
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 05:52 AM

I love this thread! Fascinating stuff! Funny about the Irish setters-- though it makes sense that dogs in general wouldn't have evolved to digest wheat. It's odd really that they do as well as they do on the typical foods.
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The Queen of Hearts,
She made some tarts
All on a summer's day.
The Knave of Hearts,
He stole the tarts
And took them clean away.

Diagnosed at age 49 by biopsy 31 May 2006

Learning how to bake those tarts gluten-free!

#22 Camille'sBigSister

 
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 02:07 PM

Who are these two Vikings? (End of your first quote.)

Cissie here. I'll give you a short answer, deb, and leave it to gfp to elaborate, if he wants to. Battle of Hastings, 1066 - William of Normandy defeated King Harold of England. This was one of history's most important dates, according to my high school history teacher. It's right up there with 1215, when King John signed the Magna Carta. I graduated from high school in 1951, in Memphis, Tennessee, and I still remember those historic dates in the history of English speaking people. :D


Cissie: Hi

Other than vodka with cream, what is a person who is a White Russian?

Deb

Hi, Deb!

Very brief synopsis: White Russia/Belorussia/Lithuania - a principality in the northwest, next to Poland on a map - under Russian control at time of the Socialist Revolution (1917) against the Tzar and his government; the Revolution was almost immediately afterward taken over by the radical Bolsheviks (Marxists/Communists). A counterrevolutionary movement arose, in 1918, to attempt to overthrow the Communist government; and the Russian Civil War began, lasting for years. For various, somewhat vague reasons, this counterrevolutionary army was called the White Army. It was composed of cossacks, army officers, the bourgeoisie, educated young men, and members of various political parties. Most intellectuals either joined the White Army, or gave it their support; thus they were called White Russians. (Think "Doctor Zhivago") The Red Army prevailed, as we well know, and wealthy, well-educated White Russians fled, mostly to Paris. French was the language of the Royal Court of Russia, and of all educated people. The White Russian father of my friend in Paris was definitely an intellectual.

As I said, this is a very brief synopsis. I hope it made sense.

Have a lovely weekend! :)

Cissie
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#23 eKatherine

 
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 02:30 PM

In On Our Minds, Stephen Pinker discusses the heritability of many human personality traits that are generally considered to be acquired.

Clearly, if you breed animals for certain traits, other traits may become uncontrolled. So a dog bred for appearance may be vicious or stupid or nervous. Why is it considered that people are exempt from this? People often choose to marry partners who have similar personality traits, and if this is heritable, it is passed to the children more effectively than the effects of childrearing.

The book was very controversial, but after having read it, I'd have to say that most of the controversy seemed to be carried on by people who hadn't read the book.
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#24 CarlaB

 
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 02:34 PM

Here's the article about Irish Setters.
http://dogtorj.Lame Advertisement/id23.html

GRRR. Instead of Lame Advertisement, put tripod dot com
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#25 gfp

 
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 03:10 PM

Who are these two Vikings?

Harold Hadrara and Duke William (Guillaume) of Normandy

Harold is referred to as a "Saxon" but his mother was Gytha Thorkelsdóttir, said to be the granddaughter of the legendary Viking Styrbjörn Starke and great-granddaughter to Harold Bluetooth, king of Denmark and thus also ancestor to King Canute. (his predecessor and another Viking)

He married 2 Danes himself...So as you can see the idea of them being even Saxon is pretty messed up ...as he had far more Viking blood than saxon...


Rather interesting stuff.

What I also found interesting that I learned about recently is that Irish Setters (the dog) are known to have Celiac. Supposedly this is what nearly brought them to extinction. The addition of wheat as a filler in dog food nearly brought them in.

I have no idea how this could possibly be related at all, but I did find it rather ironic with the talk of Irish genes and celiac. :)

Mike

They are also quite strange dogs .... lovely but strange temperaments and many suffer mental conditions perhaps not so far from autism spectrum .... they can be quite intellegent and yet do the stupiest things .. forget what they are doing and joyfully start something else like running in circles for 30 mins...
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#26 gfp

 
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 03:29 PM

In On Our Minds, Stephen Pinker discusses the heritability of many human personality traits that are generally considered to be acquired.

Clearly, if you breed animals for certain traits, other traits may become uncontrolled. So a dog bred for appearance may be vicious or stupid or nervous. Why is it considered that people are exempt from this? People often choose to marry partners who have similar personality traits, and if this is heritable, it is passed to the children more effectively than the effects of childrearing.

The book was very controversial, but after having read it, I'd have to say that most of the controversy seemed to be carried on by people who hadn't read the book.

Yes I think we rather treat humans as a special case (I bet the dolphins think the same about them) ... and yet we breed passive animals (and agressive ones) .. humans can perhaps cover up the excesses better than dogs but they are still there below the surface and in the genes.

I think this is a very close analogy to the "domestication of humans" ... those whom adapted best to "city life" (when that meant 1000 people) presumably did better ... those who didn't ended up as village idiots and outcasts.

Individualism had no part in a feudal system ... etc.
The inbred herding ability of collies is more than aquired. Its a specialisation of the wolf's instinct to a very high degree. Domesticiating foxes is very much harder... (but has been done)...

However some fox litters inexplicably do not leave the litter and actually stay and bring up the next cubs...
The start of pack mentality? How about those that become comfortable in cities? Is this also hereditory or aquired or both?
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#27 debmidge

 
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Posted 27 August 2006 - 04:50 AM

Steve

One more question....my memory is rather vague on this topic, but if you could please tell me origin of:

1) Saxons
2) Normans
3) Gauls

I am mixing these 3 up and want to get it right



Also while we are on genetic topic, how then do the Scilians fit in the picture of Italy and Morocco and Libya? Would you say that these 3 groups exhibit celiac gene as well?

I am fascinated every time we go into a connecting area on this topic. I have another question and will post it when/if I remember it.

Thanks
Deb
  • 0
Husband has Celiac Disease and
Husband misdiagnosed for 27 yrs -
The misdiagnosis was: IBS or colitis
Mis-diagnosed from 1977 to 2003 by various gastros including one of the largest,
most prestigious medical groups in northern NJ which constantly advertises themselves as
being the "best." This GI told him it was "all in his head."
Serious Depressive state ensued
Finally Diagnosed with celiac disease in 2003
Other food sensitivities: almost all fruits, vegetables, spices, eggs, nuts, yeast, fried foods, roughage, soy.
Needs to gain back at least 25 lbs. of the 40 lbs pounds he lost - lost a great amout of body fat and muscle
Developed neuropathy in 2005
Now has lymphadema 2006
It is my opinion that his subsequent disorders could have been avoided had he been diagnosed sooner by any of the dozen or so doctors he saw between 1977 to 2003

#28 gfp

 
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Posted 27 August 2006 - 06:58 AM

Steve

One more question....my memory is rather vague on this topic, but if you could please tell me origin of:

1) Saxons
2) Normans
3) Gauls

I am mixing these 3 up and want to get it right
Also while we are on genetic topic, how then do the Scilians fit in the picture of Italy and Morocco and Libya? Would you say that these 3 groups exhibit celiac gene as well?

I am fascinated every time we go into a connecting area on this topic. I have another question and will post it when/if I remember it.

Thanks
Deb


Saxon's: very little is known of their origins before the 1st C b.c.
At this time Roman historians placed them between the Weser, Elbe and Eider rivers.

However Roman historians were not exactly great at classifying barbarian tribes. They could write volumes on peoples they considered educated and washed but frequently mixed up barbarians.

Normans: Again early history is a little vague.... They regarded Danes and Norwegians as fellow kinsfolk and originally shared a language... but also had homeland claimed connections to Neustria.. (present day mid France)

Both the Saxons and the Normans were opportunists in the fall of the Roman Empire and at the same time shuffled around by movements of nomadic peoples such as the Goths and visigoths.

The Normans were granted a duch from the King of France (France wasn't very big then) and this expanded to what is today Normandy. The adopted Northern French (based on akadian) as their language and in many ways emulated the gallo-roman culture remaining.

Their shallow bottomed boats were light and could be carried and they never really lost their "Viking" seafaring heritage nor love of war and fighting. Viking boats are found in Russia (the Rus) and the mediterranean though often they made the trips via rivers and carried the boats inbetween. (antioch was at one time a Norman colony, as was Sicly)
a contempory expert and historian Goffredo (or Geoffrey) Malaterra was an eleventh century Benedictine monk and chronicler of Norman origin. wrote:

"specially marked by cunning, despising their own inheritance in the hope of winning a greater, eager after both gain and dominion, given to imitation of all kinds, holding a certain mean between lavishness and greediness, that is, perhaps uniting, as they certainly did, these two seemingly opposite qualities. Their chief men were specially lavish through their desire of good report. They were, moreover, a race skillful in flattery, given to the study of eloquence, so that the very boys were orators, a race altogether unbridled unless held firmly down by the yoke of justice. They were enduring of toil, hunger, and cold whenever fortune laid it on them, given to hunting and hawking, delighting in the pleasure of horses, and of all the weapons and garb of war."


From Wikipedia

Geographically, Normandy was approximately the same region as the old church province of Rouen or Neustria. It had no natural frontiers and was previously merely an administrative unit. Its population was mostly Gallo-Roman with a small Frankish/Germanic people admixture, plus Viking settlers, who had begun arriving in the 880s, and who were divided between a small colony in Upper (or eastern) Normandy and a larger one in Lower (or western) Normandy.

In the course of the 10th century the initial destructive incursions of Norse war bands into the rivers of Gaul evolved into more permanent encampments that included women and chattel. The pagan culture was driven underground by the Christian faith and Gallo-Romance language of the local people. The small group of Vikings that settled in assimilated to the Gallo-Romance majority. After a generation or two, the Normans were generally indistinguishable from their French neighbours. With the zeal of new converts they set forth in the 11th century from their solid base in Normandy. Characteristically it was younger sons like William the Bastard, largely dispossessed at home, who headed the adventurous raiding parties.

In Normandy they adopted the growing feudal doctrines of France, and worked them, both in Normandy and in England, into a logical system.

The Norman warrior class was new and different from the old French aristocracy, many of whom could trace their families back to Carolingian times, while the Normans could seldom cite ancestors before the beginning of the 11th century. Most knights remained poor and land-hungry; by 1066, Normandy had been exporting fighting horsemen for more than a generation. Knighthood before the time of the Crusades held little social status, and simply indicated that a man was a professional warrior and wealthy enough to own a war horse. Many Normans of France and Britain would eventually serve as avid Crusaders.

The Norman language forged by the adoption of the indigenous oïl language by a Norse-speaking ruling class developed into the regional language which survives today.


Gauls:
The first literary reference to the Celtic people, as keltoi is by the Greek historian Hecataeus in 517 BC. He locates the Keltoi tribe in Rhenania (West/Southwest Germany) ... the gauls are often used interchangably with Celtic in the region North of the Alps! (a pretty board definition) ...

The Romans really didn't care about where a tribe came from if they didn't wash everyday.
Thier principal interests were price as a slave and what art work they might have and any lands they could conquer.

Julius Caesar's comments on these people from his book, Commentarii de Bello Gallico, are worth quoting:

"All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in our Gauls, the third.
All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws.
The river Garonne separates the Gauls from the Aquitani; the Marne and the Seine separate them from the Belgae.
Of all these, the Belgae are the bravest, because they are furthest from the civilization and refinement of [our] Province, and merchants least frequently resort to them, and import those things which tend to effeminate the mind; and they are the nearest to the Germanic people, who dwell beyond the Rhine, with whom they are continually waging war; for which reason the Helvetii also surpass the rest of the Gauls in valor, as they contend with the Germanic people in almost daily battles, when they either repel them from their own territories, or themselves wage war on their frontiers. One part of these, which it has been said that the Gauls occupy, takes its beginning at the river Rhone; it is bounded by the river Garonne, the ocean, and the territories of the Belgae; it borders, too, on the side of the Sequani and the Helvetii, upon the river Rhine, and stretches toward the north.
The Belgae rises from the extreme frontier of Gaul, extend to the lower part of the river Rhine; and look toward the north and the rising sun.
Aquitania extends from the river Garonne to the Pyrenaean mountains and to that part of the ocean which is near Spain: it looks between the setting of the sun, and the north star."


Additionally rome had an outstanding debt... when the sacked Rome in 390BC.

but it should be noted

The first book deals primarily but not exclusively with the Helvetian War in 58 BC. In it, Caesar describes Gaul and the campaign against the Helvetii, a conglomeration of peoples numbering in excess of 300,000, who decided to migrate by force of arms from the Alpine regions through the centre of Gaul to the west to alleviate population pressures. This would require the crossing either of Provence, or of areas held by tribes allied to Rome. When Caesar made it clear he would not allow this, the Helvetians formed an alliance of tribes to fight him. This drew the Romans out of Provence. Later books are about the campaigns against Veneti, Aquitani, Germans and Bretons; Caesar's invasions of Britain; the insurrection of Gaul (VII, 4) and the defeat of Vercingetorix at Alesia (VII, 89).


At the same time Thrace was also being over run by "celts"

DNA analyses with both mtDNA and Y-chromosome have shown that Celts were kin to the Basques. It has been pointed by J.F. del Giorgio, in The Oldest Europeans, that practically the whole post-glacial European population proceeded from almost the same genetic stock, due to a genetic bottle-neck or human near extinction during the coldest episode of the Ice Age in Europe. Celts evidently mantained their isolation as much as possible, but there was an obvious addition of Indo-Europeans as shown by Celtic language and religion.

The Y-chromosomes of populations of the so called Celtic countries have been found in one study to primarily belong to haplogroup R1B, which makes them descendants partially of the first people to migrate into north-western Europe after the last major ice age. According to the most recently published studies of European haplogroups, around half of the current male population of that portion of Eurasia is a descendant of the R1B haplogroup.


Argument rages in the academic world as to whether or not the Celts in England were mostly wiped out/pushed west as the lack of evidence for influence of the Celts on Anglo-Saxon society suggests. Many historians now argue that the Teuton migration was smaller than previously believed or may have consisted merely of a social elite and that the genocide was cultural rather than physical due to such relatively few numbers of Anglo-Saxons mixing with the larger native population. A recent DNA study on Y-chromosome inheritance has suggested that the population of England maintains a predominantly ancient British element. The general indigenous population of Yorkshire, East Anglia and the Orkney and Shetland Islands are those populations with the least traces of ancient British paternal continuation [8]. Ironically, it may be Viking genetic influence and not Anglo-Saxon which has had a more profound impact on paternal British bloodlines, or it could very well have been a combination of both groups.


__________________________________________________________________-
WOW.. so still confused?
Take hese all together.... the celts already mixed blood with Angles and Saxons .. or at least the Romans regarded the belgae as a mixed tribe. (according to Julius)

The Saxons and Angles were also Northern Germanic/Scandanavian....

The whole lot of them were given to frequent raiding, rape and stealing women... soits hardly surprising if they cannot be easily seperated 1000 yrs later !

____________________________________________________________________

Sicly.... really where to start.
It was a greek colony at Syracuse but equally the Cartheginians (present day Tunis) also controlled it and indeed its control was partly reponsible for the Punic wars.

From wikipedia again
The Berbers (also called Amazigh people or Imazighen, "free men", singular Amazigh) are an ethnic group indigenous to Northwest Africa, speaking the Berber languages of the Afroasiatic family. In actuality, Berber is a generic name given to numerous heterogeneous ethnic groups that share similar cultural, political, and economic practices. It is not a term originated by the group itself, and indeed the word may have been derived from the Greek 'βάρβαρος', the forerunner of the English word 'barbarian'.

Then read.....
http://en.wikipedia....i/Berber#Origin

and compare with the origins of the Celts.

It starts to sound like cooking....
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#29 gfp

 
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 08:26 AM

Ok,
This is weird... its OT but

http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/5305484.stm

Belgian town bans school French
A school in Belgium.
Belgium's regions enjoy a wide degree of educational autonomy
The mayor of Merchtem in Belgium has defended a ban on speaking French in the town's schools.


Note this isn't in class, this on on the school premises....
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Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. (JC, De Bello Gallico Liber III/XVIII)

#30 DingoGirl

 
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 10:00 AM

What I want to know is.....

HOW DO YOU GUYS REMEMBER THIS STUFF????? my mind is an utter sieve....I have read all of this and it just falls right through. Can't remember endings (or beginnings) of books I've read within the last couple of years, even (except Grapes of Wrath - who can forget that one).....can't follow complex movie plots..... :( don't remember conversations I've had the same day, or, emails I've sent.....

Sorry. Just jealous of your brains and sad about my own growing ineptness. :angry: Will have to read this thread about.....50 more times just to retain even a modicum of information. It is fascinating, though.
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SUSIE

Diagnosed January 2006

"I like nonsense. It wakes up the brain cells." ~Dr. Seuss




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