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Diseases In Europe


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#1 mle_ii

 
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Posted 06 September 2006 - 12:20 PM

Ok, for those who know history of Europe, and perhaps some of Asia.

What diseases in the past oh, say 500,000 years have decimated the European population in the past? Of those diseases, which aren't now causing large amounts of the European population to die of? Finally which of those diseases still might or do run rampant in Asia, South Africa and among Native Americans?

I'm currently reading "Guns, Germs, and Steel" - by Jared Diamond, but I'm not to the Germs chapter. I'm sure I'll get a good idea of what these might be, but I thought I'd ask as I'm sure one or two or more might know the answer.

Where I'm going with this is what I've talked about in the past. That our HLA-2 and 8 (perhaps some of the others, except HLA-4 were selected because we (with those genes) survived some disease, pathogen or whatever. Those that did not have the genes died. Others who were more isloated from Europe, namely Asia, South Africa and the Americas don't have these genes. Unfortuneatly for us there are foods that we eat that also have the protein signature recognized by these genes as a pathogen.

For more on gene's read this article:
Understanding the Genetics of Gluten Sensitivity by Dr. Scot Lewey

For more information to those left reading. :)

So our immune systems get turned on and fight back. Part of the fight back is the attack on our own body tissues. The reason for this is that Tissue Transglutaminase binds to the gliadin protein, in some cases it just changes the protein, in other cases it binds to other things. Some of those other things include other body tissues. When the B-Lymphycyte sees this foreign matter it checks it out, this is done by basically engesting the object (including the ttg and bound body tissues) and breaks it down into parts. The gliadin gets recognized as foreign (due to the HLA-2 and 8 genes) after talking with a T-Cell. And thus the B-Lymphocyte creates antibodies for all the proteins it enjested. Including ttg (ttg is the same thing that tests to find the antibodies for found in Celiac Disease) and other body tissues. Normally the body would ignore the self tissues but due to disease or other reasons, perhaps even the mechanism which tells the body that it's infected (with gliadin or a similar pathogen) turns off this mechanism of not recognizing self as foreign. Once the body sees self as foreign it doesn't stop until the pathogen is gone. And since the body sees self as foreign it attacks self as well and thus more bad things happen.

Thanks,
Mike
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#2 Katie O'Rourke

 
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Posted 06 September 2006 - 01:21 PM

I would go with some sort of virus as far as the coeliac thign is concerned, as coeliacs are more susceptible to bacterial and fungal infections, yet from my experience practically impermeable to viruses (apart from herpes simplex which technically is dormant in your body for your whole life from childhood, and apart from when coeliacs have ingested gluten). ive mentioned thsi before on here but unless i eat gluten and the same with my dad we never ever catch flu, colds or stomach viral bugs. weird really. same thign with my gran who died from bacterial food pooisonign on a hospital ward infected with norwalk virus. so i would look in that direction.....
and before you ask the plague was one major killer but that was caused by bacteria - Yersinia pestis, so is unlikely to be that....
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#3 Nantzie

 
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Posted 06 September 2006 - 02:25 PM

I've wondered the same thing. There must have been some sort of plague that resulted in a genetic mutation that made certain people basically become celiac, or some sort of mutation in the gluten crops themselves that made them a different thing altogether, which some people weren't effected by. There's got to be an answer.

Here's a link that I found interesting -

http://www.biologyne...e_from_hiv.html

There are some reference to specific plagues that could be researched.

Nancy
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#4 Nantzie

 
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Posted 06 September 2006 - 03:16 PM

Here is some more reading to do. It doesn't take gluten intolerance or those genes into account, but I think the more important thing is that they're trying to figure out the classic DQ2 / DQ8 celiac.

http://www.celiachea...rofessional.asp
Especially:

http://www.celiachea...pidemiology.pdf

http://www.celiachea...athogenesis.pdf

Nancy
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#5 gfp

 
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Posted 07 September 2006 - 02:04 AM

Well you can start off by influenza. This is historically one of the largest killers.

Secondly I don't think bubonic and pneumonic plague was all that common as we are led to believe and most references to "plagues" are actually something more common like cholera or typhoid.

In most cases where clear descriptions are available and preserved from trained literate physicians the sypmtoms of plague do not fit with the known symptoms of yersinia pestis.

Secondly yersinia pestis is excessively difficult to transmit and the most common method being a flea bite in its bubonic form yet "plague" seems to have struck equally the clean hygenic populations of Rome and Greece as much as the filthy conditions in the middle east, africa and northern europe.

DNA extracted from the pulp in the teeth of "plague" victims in the peloponise war and plague of athens suggests that typhoid was actually responsible. This is questioned however from the descriptions by Thucydides, himself at least a trained physician of the time the symptoms are indicitive of typhoid not plague. (I have had typhoid and its not nice... however this is another baterial disease... it has to be said though that I with my HLA type survived it without medical treatment whereas my ex wife was hospitalised)

What is perhaps interesting is risk of bubonic plague is related to wheat consumption of a population.
For instance the hardest hit civilisations are the ones who are dependant upon grain and transport it in bulk, along with rats.

Other pandemics are usually associated with measles (viral) and TB (bacterial) or cholera (bacerial)

However its worth noting personal experience. I had measles when I was 4-5 but was not ill in anyway and even the spots were only mild wheras my non celiac brother was very ill.
Similarly when I received my TB vaccination at school the intial test showed me to be immune, they gave it me anyway... but I had no reaction, no lump on my arm like everyone else!
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#6 eKatherine

 
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Posted 07 September 2006 - 02:45 AM

Well you can start off by influenza. This is historically one of the largest killers.

Secondly I don't think bubonic and pneumonic plague was all that common as we are led to believe and most references to "plagues" are actually something more common like cholera or typhoid.

In most cases where clear descriptions are available and preserved from trained literate physicians the sypmtoms of plague do not fit with the known symptoms of yersinia pestis.

Secondly yersinia pestis is excessively difficult to transmit and the most common method being a flea bite in its bubonic form yet "plague" seems to have struck equally the clean hygenic populations of Rome and Greece as much as the filthy conditions in the middle east, africa and northern europe.

There are lots of different "plagues". as in "a plague", but only one is nowadays called "the plague". Medical science being what it was at the time (ie, nonexistent), they tended to lump all diseases of a sort in together. Deadly contagious disease (flu, bubonic plague, typhoid)=plague, skin disease (leprosy, psoriasis, dh?)=leprosy...

It's not all that hard to catch bubonic plague. It happens ever year to people living in the Soutwest desert, where it is endemic to the native prairie dogs, and family pets pick the fleas up in the yard. I can imagine that anywhere rats carrying infected fleas have free access could have an outbreak.
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#7 gfp

 
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Posted 07 September 2006 - 04:07 AM

There are lots of different "plagues". as in "a plague", but only one is nowadays called "the plague". Medical science being what it was at the time (ie, nonexistent), they tended to lump all diseases of a sort in together. Deadly contagious disease (flu, bubonic plague, typhoid)=plague, skin disease (leprosy, psoriasis, dh?)=leprosy...

It's not all that hard to catch bubonic plague. It happens ever year to people living in the Soutwest desert, where it is endemic to the native prairie dogs, and family pets pick the fleas up in the yard. I can imagine that anywhere rats carrying infected fleas have free access could have an outbreak.

Yes but its excessively difficult to transmit person to person in its bubonic form and Roman and Greek citizens didn't have fleas .. they bathed daily and treated their skin with oil.. even the poorest citizen had access to communal baths and even domestic slaves were forced to bathe and no Roman would let an unwashed slave anywhere close to them.
Hence human carried fleas could not be a major source of transmission.


What the Romans had was a huge rat problem due to their heavy dependance on grain and their extreme organisation in warehousing it and shipping it.


They were also knowledgeable about the danger of rats and transmission of diseases.
200 BC: The Roman, Cato the Censor, advocated oil sprays for pest control of domestic animals.

and
13 BC: The first rat-proof grainary was built by the Roman architect Marcus Pollio.

What I'm trying to say is one or two infected people would be unlikely in themselves to cause an outbreak...but the transport of bulk grain often with accompanying rats would.
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#8 Guest_nini_*

 
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Posted 07 September 2006 - 05:14 AM

I've wondered the same thing. There must have been some sort of plague that resulted in a genetic mutation that made certain people basically become celiac, or some sort of mutation in the gluten crops themselves that made them a different thing altogether, which some people weren't effected by. There's got to be an answer.

Here's a link that I found interesting -

http://www.biologyne...e_from_hiv.html

There are some reference to specific plagues that could be researched.

Nancy


I've done some research on Yellow Mosaic Virus that is found in wheat crops and is killing off the wheat, and is the "hush hush" reason why all wheat crops are GMO...

http://ohioline.osu....-fact/0003.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm....dB/57030001.htm

There is a National Association of Wheat Growers that is commited to solving any problems with wheat crops... just fyi

oh and Yellow Mosaic Virus is starting to spread to other crops like beans and melons, will we start seeing more people intolerant to these foods as the growers have to GMO their crops to keep them alive?

http://iscb.epfl.ch/...05/PS1_0405.pdf.
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