Oxalates And Nightshades

[Flor]

Hey Judy,

I'd love to hear what you learned from your conversation!

I've been scarce the last couple of weeks because I had a major setback. I'm not sure if it was adding tortilla chips back in or sneaking some chocolate, or stress or what, but I've just been sick like the old days. More D, bloating, more joint pain, headaches, exhaustion, etc etc.

I went back and did some reading on leaky gut generally -- which is really where I think I am -- and reminded myself that oxalates are one piece of a bigger pie. And for me after gluten and soy and dairy and nightshades and oxalates, the remaining piece is SUGAR and yeast-friendly foods (wine, vinegar, aged goat cheese, mushrooms, etc etc).

So, I'm back off the corn and also now day two of yeast-free diet and am feeling much better, though I think the yeast are rebelling some because I've been really itchy. I feel like I've been living in the clutches of sugar cravings my whole life, so now I'm going to try to tackle that one.

Anyway that's where I am.

Also doing another round of VSL3 which I think was helpful before and starting on NAG which the VP Foundation recommended.

How's everyone else?

xoxo

Florence

[Judyin Philly]

will try to write more tomorrow Florance but i think your on to your own cure.

back up ...........the leaky gut will get you every time.

and since you were feeling so good...naturally you added some new stuff and that will do it

just my opinion..........but try to go back and do the simple meat, veg, fruit and supplements and the low oxalate and nite shades ........watch those little suckers.............

good luck...........

actually Valerie just inforced all we know but for me .............she doesn't think i've healed enough.....as she's been doing this for 7 years.

tomorrow...........girlfriend......i'll be back

i have to play with the supplememts again now......after chiro apt.

love judy

[Yellow Rose]

actually Valerie just inforced all we know but for me .............she doesn't think i've healed enough.....as she's been doing this for 7 years.

love judy

Judy,

How long does Valerie think healing takes? 7 Years seems like a really long time.

Yellow Rose

[Judyin Philly]

Judy,

How long does Valerie think healing takes? 7 Years seems like a really long time.

Yellow Rose

Hi Florence.

She didn't say.

She's had a lot of other medicial issues as do I- so it may not take as long for you.

I think IMO that what I hear is that 2 years for just celiac alone. But you have other sinsitive food issues too...............Maybe others can weigh in on this. I still think it's just 'your personal time' based on how long you've been un dx. etc.

Valerie was really speaking to me about the oxalate issues. She's able to tolerate some H oxalate foods now so in her opinion....you can heal and eat these foods again if your careful.

i'm sure no expert here.........so it just my opinion.

[Judyin Philly]

HI

Susan just posted this on the LOD thread on yahoo and thought some of you might be interested.

I know some on the OMG thread have issues with anemia and lron. This child has another medical issue but this info is interesting to me.

"""You might want to try a probiotic more capable of

> degrading oxalate, and the best we know of here for that purpose is

VSL#3, that can be purchased from wellnesshealth.org or from the website

with the same name as the product.

>

> Potatoes are high oxalate. Why don't you look at the recipes

section at lowoxalate.info (a website that goes with this list) and take a

look at the food lists to see which items are high.

>

> Iron can be tied up by oxalate. One of the big problems is that

oxalate

> can substitute for the carbonate ion in transferrin, and that keeps

the

> iron in transferrin from being able to be unloaded from the

molecule when

> transferrin is taken up into cellls. This can keep someone anemic

despite

> supplementation. If you search the archives on iron, you will find

a more

> detailed explaination.

>

> Giving oils with meals may actually be making your son absorb more

> oxalate. The oils bind the calcium in the GI tract, and that keeps

the

> calcium from binding oxalate, and the result is that the oxalate is

> absorbed. We recommend getting your fats in away from meals.

Florence. Aren't you using this VSL#3?

How are you finding it working for you?

Judy

>

[bluejeangirl]

What do they mean by giving oils with your meals. As a suppliment like fish oils or using oils in your cooking?

Its amazing what they know about digestion. She should be giving seminars to doctors.

Gail

[Judyin Philly]

What do they mean by giving oils with your meals. As a suppliment like fish oils or using oils in your cooking?

Its amazing what they know about digestion. She should be giving seminars to doctors.Gail

Hi Gail

She does do this alot.........esp in the autisum community.

the 'oil' was given for another condidtion. will try to find it and post but it's not related to our celiac issues i don't think.

judy

[Flor]

Hi you guys,

I am taking VSL3 and I think i do like it. I did an initial testing round of it a couple of months ago -- 20 days worth -- and I felt worse when I stopped, so I ordered some more and am taking again. All I can say is that it feels good going down and that it doesn't make me feel bloated they way I think the healthfood store probiotics do.

My understanding of the oils-away-from-calcium thing is just to take any supplemental fatty acids after meals. So if you take the calcium citrate 20 minutes before meals as they recommend, then take your fish/flax oil awhile after the meal so the calcium can bind to the oxalates in the foods you're eating. They warn in general about a high-fat diet since I guess it soaks up more calcium (and is more work to digest). All things in moderation!

A couple other things, from both VP Foundation and the Low Oxalate folks:

N-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG) was also recommended by VP foundation -- I got some from Amazon and have started taking. No word yet. It is supposed to be good for both gut healing and connective tissue.

L-arginine is another supplement that there's good research indicating it helps replenish intestinal mucosa and helps damaged villi heal. An article in the lox oxalate group files also has this study saying it hinders oxalate retention:

"L-arg feeding prevents the retention of calcium oxalate

crystals in hyperoxaluric rats by way of protecting the renal cells from

oxidative injury and also by providing a second line of defense through the

normalization of the oxalate metabolism. It reduces the risk of stone

formation, by curtailing free radicals and hyperoxaluria as both of them

have to work in close association to form stones."

I'm going to order some.

Lots of folks on the low oxalate group are also taking co-enzyme Q-10 for oxidative stress.

Anyway, for what it's worth, here's the latest summary of the supplements I'm taking:

VSL3

Glutamine

Fish and flax seed oil

N acetyl glucosamine

Garlic

Zinc

Biotin

Co-enzyme Q10

General multi-vitamin

Tons of calcium citrate (some with Mag, some with D)

Echinecea and goldenseal (temporarily)

And soon: L-arginine

Anyone have experiences with any of these or other supplements they'd like to weigh in on?

After a couple of weeks of major setback, I removed corn again (damn!) and ALL REFINED SUGAR (double damn!), as well as all yeast-friendly foods (wine, vinegar, mushroom, aged cheese, grapes, etc). And I am back to feeling much better!

Based on reading through the Low Oxalate Cookbook I've also added some medium oxalates back in (sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, and a few other things I can't remember) -- without ill effect.

Best to all of you!

Florence

[bluejeangirl]

After a couple of weeks of major setback, I removed corn again (damn!) and ALL REFINED SUGAR (double damn!), as well as all yeast-friendly foods (wine, vinegar, mushroom, aged cheese, grapes, etc). And I am back to feeling much better!

The holidays are just to hard to restrict sweet goodies but I'm going to start the anti candida diet in January. Whenever I do eat to many sweets I won't sleep good. I just stay super alert. So I'll eat just alittle just enough so I don't feel deprieved. I did get the book that was recommended , An Extraordinary Rower To Heal by Bruce Semon and thought it was very good. Not a hard diet to follow at all. In fact I'll be making one pumpkin pie with gluten free crust, ricemilk, and honey and one the regular way.

He does come down hard on vinegars. Also malts, chocolates, and coffee. Anything thats "roasted" is bad. So that includes chocolate, and coffee beans, and peanuts.

This will be the first thanksgiving that I won't have any alcohol in any form. This will be hard because I use it so I can relax around all the commotion and people.

[Flor]

Here's hoping my ativan is gluten free and low oxalate because I'm with you on the holiday stress and missing the glass of wine. I feel like an addict saying this. I have so few vices left -- and none of them dietary now! -- no chocolate, nothing roasted, no alcohol, no nuts, etc etc etc. So for the occasional freak-out, I only have ativan now. And it's not even fun the way wine and chocolate are. Oh well.

[Judyin Philly]

happy thanksgiving to you all

How did all your meals go?

Judy

[bluejeangirl]

happy thanksgiving to you all

How did all your meals go?

Judy

Hi Judy,

Well our thanksgiving was nice. Everything turned out great. Was alot of work though I try to please everyone so I make two stuffings. I have to take the turkey out of the oven and keep it warm for a whole hour so that I can fit sweet potatoes, the stuffings and green bean casserole in there. Its the only time of year I wish I had double ovens.

So guess what happens. Last year I got glutened from thanksgiving because I was too careless with all the c.c. This year I was careful and pulled it off. Well didn't sleep anyway because our dogs both had D. all night.... apparently because turkey was to hard on their tummies. One kept waking us up to go outside every two hours and the other just went all over the house. What a mess! And their longhairs so it sticks to the long fur on the way out.

So hoping for a diarrhea free thanksgiving next year for everybody.

[Judyin Philly]

So hoping for a diarrhea free thanksgiving next year for everybody.

WHAT A RIOT......CAUSE I'M NOT LIVING THROGH THE NITE WITH YOU AND DOGGIES.

ALSO.....WE CELIAC'S...........PRAYING FOR 'A NO DIARRHEA' THANKSGIVING WHEN WE ARE COUNTING OUR BLESSINGS AROUND THE TABLE.............

OK SO THAT'S A

1= GOOD DINNER AND NO 'D' OR CC.

1- FOR CC. IN THE DOGGIE COUNT.

LOVE TO HEAR FROM THE REST OF YOU POSTING SLACKERS.......BET YOUR ALL OUT SHOPPING.

OUR WAS GREAT EVEN THO JUST THE 2 OF US.........JIM'S TURKEY STUFFED WITH CIRTUS FRUITS WAS FANTASTIC. HE DOES A STUFFING AND THE BASICS WITH CELERY, ONIONS, GARLIC, PECANS, AND gluten-free SAUSAGE.........HE FIXES THIS AND GIVES ME 1/2 AND THEN I USED MY CF BUTTER AND SAUTED IT ALL AND ADDED SOME CHICKEN STOCK AND MY gluten-free BREAD. SINCE I WAS NOT FEELING UP TO BAKING THE BREAD I USED 2 SLICES I HAD LEFT OVER AND 1 BEGAL. ALL WAS TOASTED THEN PUT INTO THE OVEN FOR 1/2.

IT WAS REALLY GOOD.

WE SKIPPED THE PIES AND DOING TODAY OR TOMORROW.

SO WE HAVE

2= GOOD DINNER AND NO 'D' OR CC

1- CAT BOX WASN'T TOO PRETTY SO GUESS KITTY GOT SOME CC.........

[Rachel--24]

Has anyone heard anything about annatto with regards to LOD??

I react badly to anything containing annatto and I've avoided it for a couple years now...since I first started the Failsafe/Feingold diets.

Last night I tried Amy's mac and cheese even though it used to always cause problems. Its been well over a year since I've had it and I generally dont eat processed stuff anyway.

Its got annatto in it and my stomach hurt after eating it. My head is swollen today but I cant be 100% sure its from the mac and cheese...although its pretty likely. Its not the milk because I dont have that problem from milk in ice cream but I dont ever eat cheese because of mold.

Cheese is definately not something I should be eating but I looked up the annatto (because of the stomach upset) and saw this..

Annatto leaves contain calcium oxalate crystals

It seems like annatto is high oxalate but I cant find alot of info.

What do you guys think?? Any experiences with it?

[nora-n]

I react toannatto too, but I think it is only because it is a known allergen.

[Yellow Rose]

The holidays are just to hard to restrict sweet goodies but I'm going to start the anti candida diet in January.

I agree with you. I also am going to go sugar free ( ) in January. Hopefully this is one resolution I won't break. I bought an e-book on candida and it was really good. You don't have to change your ways of eating forever usually about 6 weeks. I can handle 6 weeks at a time. It says the actual length of time the cure is going to take depends on your body's ability to recover and the strength of the infection. That if you feel that your infection is weakening its hold on you and your body is more balanced, you can slowly re-introduce some of the banned foods. Avoid sweets, cakes, cookies, pastries, and junk food (potato chips, sweetened drinks, and doughnuts. do not be fooled by "natural sugars" such as fructose, sucrose, raw sugar, organic sugar, honey, or molasses Sugar is sugar and what it does most successfully is feed the Candida albicans overgrowth. If you want more info PM me and I will send it to you. There is a lot of don't eat this or that advice along with what you can eat.

MY CF BUTTER

Judy does your CF butter have soy in it. I am looking for some kind of butter without soy or corn.

Has anyone heard anything about annatto with regards to LOD??

Don't know about it with regards to LOD but I do remember reading in one of my gluten-free cookbooks that a lot of Celiac people react to annatto which is in butter and some yellow cheeses.

My thanksgiving was wonderful. My son hosted and I brought my own food. I still had to cook but didn't have to do the extra cleaning. HA! I did agree to bring my famous cresent rolls but I told my family I was sending everyone the receipe so they could make them themselves after this. My DD came over and put in the reg flour and beat it up for me. My DH brought me a mask I could wear so I wouldn't breath in the flour. But the smell of those rolls cooking almost did me in along with all the cleaning afterward. I was so proud of my DH he did not eat one roll. He didn't want to take the chance of glutening me. I ate mashed potatoes and I was a little sore afterwards so I am going back to no nightshades again. I have found that some of the HO are giving me problems like oranges and chocolate (RATS) so I am reevaluating my list and starting a food diary to see if I can narrow this down even more.

Yellow Rose

[Judyin Philly]

QUOTE (Judyin Philly @ Nov 23 2007, 02:35 PM)

MY CF BUTTER

Judy does your CF butter have soy in it. I am looking for some kind of butter without soy or corn.

__________________________________

Smart Balance does not have soy..

Judy

[Judyin Philly]

HI

I haven't been on much and seems like others have not either.

Thomas 3000 posted a radio show link a few days ago and plan to listen again as I remember last year this was a real eye opener for me.

Open Original Shared Link

how is everyone doing? Are people still able to find 'help' on the low oxalate diet?

Love to hear some up dates.

I did start the 'habba' syndrome supplements Cholestyramine or Questran powder)-- It seems to be helping the 'd'. I did a thread on it last week

Open Original Shared Link

aside from helping the essess bile from gallbladder it also said that it helped 'dump oxalates' in the bladder' That is sure true for me but now after about a week that has stopped.

Just love to know your feelings and thoughts. Would esp love to hear how you all are doing or not doing on the LOD.

hugs

judy

[jerseyangel]

Hi Judy--and everyone...

Yes, this thread's been quiet lately. I'm finding that the combination of the calcium and just keeping an eye on the oxalates and sticking with a moderate level on a daily basis is working beautifully for me.

I'm regular, with no D--of course I still need to be careful with my diet in general and other than corn, I am still intolerant to all the foods I was before.

One interesting thing--I am becomming intolerant to almonds. I was eating a lot of them, and then stopped all but an occasional spread on my toast or the odd cup of almond milk in a recipe. The other day, I had some almond butter, and immediately got nauseous and it lasted for 24 hours. I don't know if that has anything to do with oxalates or not.

Anyway, hope you all are doing fine on LOD

[Flor]

Hi Judy and everyone!

Two supplement questions first...

Over at low oxalate diet yahoo group, two new items have been mentioned to be useful for yeast and leaky gut.

The first is an essential oil combo called "Inner Defense" (Open Original Shared Link) -- several folks have seen results with it. I think primarily as an anti-fungal.

The second is colostrum -- which I've heard about and took for a while a couple of years ago at the recommendation of a nutritionist. One woman was getting recommendation both from her nutritionist and her DAN (autism-related) doctor to try colostrum.

Anyone have any experience with either of these?

And by the way...is there a thread on here where people can simply poll for experiences and info about specific supplements? Sure would be nice to gather some of this data systematically since we're all trying different stuff. And my list gets longer every day!

I am still on the slow road to better. Generally, my energy and guts have been better since going LOD, but I've had to cut out the yeast-friendly foods too. Which I am doing with some success, but not entirely. It's SO hard, as you all know.

I am finding now that I have a little more energy than I did before that some form of exercise that makes me break a sweat every day is really helpful.

And I am still once a week or so eating something that just doesn't agree with me and causes a day or more of setback. I don't know what it is or how long the delay is between eating and symptoms. I think corn is the culprit, but only in some forms. I can eat popcorn (on occasion) with no problem and plain corn itself, but tortilla chips I cannot. Anyway, I'm still figuring it out.

I'm experimenting with slightly higher oxalate foods (carrots, the occasional walnut) and that seems fine. It also seems like since my oxalate consumption has increased slightly that the constant burning in my shins has stopped.

I think I can eat limited tomato sauce, but not potatoes. So it's very specific.

I've been sick now for over two years and there are days this is so discouraging and frightening I just want to give up. Mostly these days though I feel hopeful that I'm just on a very long slow road to recovery.

How's everyone else doing?

[Judyin Philly]

Patti.....your post is SO ENCOURAGING..........Think that you and Robbin have really been our poster gals for the LOD. Thanks for sharing.

Florence.......a couple things come to mind.

will just add them........out of your post.

I haven't heard anything about the 2 supplements you mentioned. I've pretty much given up on the Yahoo LOD thread, I post and no one ever answers so just give up.

And by the way...is there a thread on here where people can simply poll for experiences and info about specific supplements? Sure would be nice to gather some of this data systematically since we're all trying different stuff. And my list gets longer every day!

patti can we do a poll in the middle of a thread.

Florence i know we do a poll on a 'new thread you can start'

but tortilla chips I cannot. Anyway, I'm still figuring it out. i bet it's something in the processing or an added ingred or just the brand your using plus it's probably more concentred ..........IMO

It also seems like since my oxalate consumption has increased slightly that the constant burning in my shins has stopped. now that's interesting.........

Mostly these days though I feel hopeful that I'm just on a very long slow road to recovery. I can relate but just think how LONG IT TOOK US TO GET SO SICK. GUESSING IT WILL TAKE US LONGER TO HEAL.

SORRY FOR THE STRANGE POST.......... JUST TRYING TO SAVE TIME AS I HAVE GOT TO GET MOVING.

THANKS FOR POSTING YOU 2

HOPE MORE WILL CHIME IN.

HUGS

JUDY

[jerseyangel]

Hi Florence--I was wondering how you were doing

The poll--the only way to do it would be to start a new topic. It would be interesting, though, to see the replies.

I'm still on the calcium and biotin. I just can't tolerate most suppliments, and to tell you the truth--I don't feel like experimenting with them and making myself sick again. I wish I could take a probiotic and some other things--those suppliments you mentioned sound very promising. Especially the oil.

I've just spent too much time and money on things that I end up throwing away My system is very touchy and it's taken so long to get to this point--possibly at some time in the future, who knows? Last year at this time, who knew I'd be rid of the D, most of the anxiety and eating popcorn!

I'm thinking that you have reached a good balance for your body and that's why the amounts you're eating have diminished the shin pain. I very much agree with you that it's not only an individual thing, but extremely selective.

[Flor]

Hi Patti, I hear you about the supplements! Some days I'm not sure with everything I'm taking if I'm just stirring the pot too much!!!

I will see later today if I can start a new thread as a supplements post. I'm not even sure it should go in this Leaky Gut section because it might be more generally applicable?

And here's another item on a supplement:

For those of you with joint pain as well...(which includes me big-time):

I'm on another listserv run by Susan Owens who does the yahoo LOD group. And this just came in about the benefits of taking MSM and glucosamine (both of which I take -- and the glucosamine is also recommended in NAG form by the VP Foundation people):

Clin Drug Investig. 2004;24(6):353-63.Links

Randomised, Double-Blind, Parallel, Placebo-Controlled Study of Oral

Glucosamine, Methylsulfonylmethane and their Combination in Osteoarthritis.

Usha PR, Naidu MU.

Department of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics, Nizam's Institute of

Medical Sciences, Hyderabad, India.

OBJECTIVE: Glucosamine, classified as a slow-acting drug in osteoarthritis

(SADOA), is an efficacious chondroprotective agent. Methylsulfonylmethane

(MSM), the isoxidised form of dimethyl-sulfoxide (DSMO), is an effective

natural analgesic and anti-inflammatory agent. The aim of this study was to

compare the efficacy and safety of oral glucosamine (Glu),

methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), their combination and placebo in

osteoarthritis of the knee. PATIENTS AND DESIGN: A total of 118 patients of

either sex with mild to moderate osteoarthritis were included in the study

and randomised to receive either Glu 500mg, MSM 500mg, Glu and MSM or

placebo capsules three times daily for 12 weeks. Patients were evaluated at

0 (before drug administration), 2, 4, 8 and 12 weeks post-treatment for

efficacy and safety. The efficacy parameters studied were the pain index,

the swelling index, visual analogue scale pain intensity, 15m walking time,

the Lequesne index, and consumption of rescue medicine. RESULTS: Glu, MSM

and their combination significantly improved signs and symptoms of

osteoarthritis compared with placebo. There was a statistically significant

decrease in mean (+/- SD) pain index from 1.74 +/- 0.47 at baseline to 0.65

+/- 0.71 at week 12 with Glu (p < 0.001). MSM significantly decreased the

mean pain index from 1.53 +/- 0.51 to 0.74 +/- 0.65, and combination

treatment resulted in a more significant decrease in the mean pain index

(1.7 +/- 0.47 to 0.36 +/- 0.33; p < 0.001). After 12 weeks, the mean

swelling index significantly decreased with Glu and MSM, while the decrease

in swelling index with combination therapy was greater (1.43 +/- 0.63 to

0.14 +/- 0.35; p < 0.05) after 12 weeks. The combination produced a

statistically significant decrease in the Lequesne index. All treatments

were well tolerated. CONCLUSION: Glu, MSM and their combination produced an

analgesic and anti-inflammatory effect in osteoarthritis. Combination

therapy showed better efficacy in reducing pain and swelling and in

improving the functional ability of joints than the individual agents. All

the treatments were well tolerated. The onset of analgesic and

anti-inflammatory activity was found to be more rapid with the combination

than with Glu. It can be concluded that the combination of MSM with Glu

provides better and more rapid improvement in patients with osteoarthritis.

PMID: 17516722 [PubMed - in process]

[jerseyangel]

In kind of an odd coincidence, my cat is currently on glucosimine for his arthritis. My husband, who was diagnosed with osteo arthritis in his knee recently, is considering trying it, too.

[Judyin Philly]

HUBBY WAS ON IT AND IT SEEMED TO WORK FOR WHILE FOR HIM.

GOOD FOR YOU ALLO PATTI

I TRIED IT AND IT MIGHT BE THE glucosimine THAT HAS THE SHELL FISH BONES IN IT. MIGHT BE THE OTHER ONE THAT IS THE COMBO.....CONTROTINE (?) ANYWAY.......I BROKE OUT IN ITCHING AS I'M ALLERGIC TO SHELL FISH.

TRY THE POLL FLORENCE AND I'LL RESPOND

I REPLIED TO YOUR FIRST POST THIS AM IN CASE YOU MISSED IT