Oxalates And Nightshades

[nora-n]

Interesting discussion.

I just want to mention that I react to yeasts and citric acid. I also have a positive blood test for IgG antibodies to yeasts.

.... Guess how they make citiric acid.....that is why I would not try calcium citrate...

nora

[Rachel--24]

Guess how they make citiric acid.....that is why I would not try calcium citrate...

Citric acid is derived from Aspergillus fermentation. It does NOT come from citrus as most people believe.

Yup...I also react to anything "yeasty"....incuding anything fermented (even yogurt). I react very badly to citric acid and have avoided it for a couple years now.

My very elevated yeast antibodies were IgM antibodies....that was almost a year ago. 6 months later I retested and my IgM antibodies had decreased over 50%!!

They were still more than twice the normal range but a HUGE improvement from where it was. A year ago I had less than normal range IgG antibodies to the yeast. Now I have elevated IgG antibodies and the IgM went down considerably....a very good sign.

[Rachel--24]

What do you think about us all sharing the list of supplements we're taking? Maybe we would learn something from each other's regimens?

Most of the stuff I'm taking comes from my Dr.

I couldnt take any supplements that I'd tried on my own and I pretty much react to everything I buy at the store...no matter how "pure" it is.

My Dr.'s test me with different types of energetic testing (Kinesiolgy or ART). This type of testing lets them know what my body needs, what it will tolerate and at what dose.

My whole treatment protocol is put together this way. The supplements are mostly the ones that are only sold by health practitioners. They are very high quality and hypo-allergenic. I can list them if you want.

Most people have different sensitivities so what works for one person wont necessarily be as good for someone else.

I'm currently taking alot of different supplements but most are used to target specific infections I have, to support detoxification and to chelate heavy metals. I do take magnesium, minerals and a few other "basics".

[jerseyangel]

Interesting discussion.

I just want to mention that I react to yeasts and citric acid. I also have a positive blood test for IgG antibodies to yeasts.

.... Guess how they make citiric acid.....that is why I would not try calcium citrate...

nora

Yes! I use calcium carbonate. I actually started taking it to counteract excess fluid in my intestine, therefore preventing D. It works very well for that

I began to get interested in the whole oxalate connection when I was hearing how well Robbin was doing. I did try switching to calcium citrate, but it didn't seem to have the same constipating effect for me. I do think that the carbonate is helping to rid the oxalates, as I have been having the symptoms.

[Flor]

Anyone heard of PPC?

I'm on a listserv for "sulphurstories" -- also run by Susan Owen who does the LOD yahoo group. This email just came in and I was curious to know if anyone knows about this stuff.

Rachel, given you're on a very specialized protocol it probably doesn't make sense to list it all here. I was looking mostly for guidance about the basic stuff -- vitamins, minerals, amino acids, fatty acids.

What you say Jerseyangel about your different experience with calcium citrate and calcium carbonate is interesting.

Here's the email about PPC below:

Hi listmates, just run into some info on PPC (polyenylphosphatidylcholine) as a support to

detoxifying systems and it says that it provides a source of choline used in the body's

manufacture of acetylcholine.

This is from www.phoschol.com:

"...increasing # of publications suggest that PPC can help improve:

oxygen supply and consumption in the brain

cerebral blood flow

microcirculation

vessel resistance and blood coagulation lipid values

antiperoxidative processes "

What really caught my attention is what they suggest improves, we're LOD (my daughter

has autism and I multiple chem sensitivity and a taste of kidney stones and possibly CF):\

"orally administered ppc enables:

-repair of damaged membranes in the gastrointestinal mucosa

-emulsification of fats and oil soluble food components

-fat absorption via chylomicron formation

-protection of stomach mucosa wall from gastric acid

the benefits of orally administered PC:

-strenghthened stomach mucosa

-reduced gastric side-effects

-reduced ulceration in a natural way

-pain relief from stomachache"

...

"the probable reason is that PPC corrects the hepatic oxidative stress by restoring SAMe

and adequate levels of SAMe are necessary to produce enough GSH by transsulfuration."

This improvement of liver function sounds very interesting specially since things live milk

thistle are out of the question if we follow LOD.

Anyone tried it with good results? thanks

[Rachel--24]

OMG Rachel!! Aspergillus....I wonder if that could be an issue for me, too? My pain is most always worse from the shoulders up and I have lots of problems with my sinuses, jaw and ears. I was actually diagnosed with TMJ by an ENT--and my accupuncturist confirmed it.

Patti, I was diagnosed with TMJ too. I went to like 3 TMJ specialists who all said that my jaw was so messed up they didnt even know where to begin with me.

OK...so in a matter of only a couple months I went from totally normal jaw (no pain) to one of the worst cases of TMJ they've ever seen?? Obviously that doesnt just "happen".

I also got sent to a stupid "TMJ management" class.

I never bought into any of those "diagnoses" because I knew something was causing it. I remember seeing a biological dentist who also pointed out the TMJ situation. I asked him "What is it gonna take to correct this??" He replied "You have to find out exactly whats causing so much stress to your immune system....thats the only way you will correct it."

I knew he was 100% right about that.

I dont really consider it a "TMJ" problem...I know that there are toxins causing that inflammation. There are so many things accumulated there but the Aspergillus could be a main factor for me.

I called my Dr. and left a message....he'll call back later when I get off work.

As far as the sinus symptoms...the problems started in my nose/forehead...especially right between my eyes....my eyes got very puffy. It later spread to other areas (cheeks, jaw, ears). I have swelling everywhere on my head (not noticeable to others). The pain was unbearable until I changed my diet.

I would say that if you have similar symptoms that have persisted you most likely have some kind of infection contributing to that. Fungal infections are most likely...but it could also be bacterial.

Unfortunately, Aspergillus infection is yet another thing that the mainstream Dr.'s dont acknowledge.

I know *something* is causing this and the aspergillus seems most likely. For me the diet is sort of a "bandaid" treatment but I gotta stick with it until I can get to the root causes. I think if I can resolve this toxicity I should be able to resume a normal diet.

[jerseyangel]

OK...so in a matter of only a couple months I went from totally normal jaw (no pain) to one of the worst cases of TMJ they've ever seen?? Obviously that doesnt just "happen".

Yep, it was the same with me. He didn't say it was the worst case, but he said it's "classic TMJ Dysfunction". Just like that, right outta the blue

The sinus problems have been going on for many years. I've had x-rays and 2 CT scans which were all ok. My primary problem area is my eustachian tubes--for some reason, they don't function well and have a hard time draining.

It's particularly bad right now. I hate it--I can hear my blood rushing in my ear all the time

Inflammation is involved here somehow....

[Judyin Philly]

HI friends

I'm finding even with all your love and support I'm not able to deal with this last issue alone

I placed a call today to my dear CELIAC SPECIALIST FRIEND---NANCY PATIN FAILINI.

She's the dietitian I worked with at the hospital for 15 years and wrote the dietitian section in one of Danna Koorn's books and also is the author of the great kids book on celiac.

She's given papers internationaly.......she knows celiac and all that entails, she knows diets.........she knows me professionally (before my brain went MIA) and.........we were and continue to be good friends since we both left the hospital...........

S0000000000000--------- I'm going to pay out of pocket for a dietitians consultation with her.

Her time is so limited.....she has adopted 5 kids and home schools them all...........amazing woman.

I will let you all know when she gets back to me. It may take awhile..but that's ok.......busy people are the hardest to get hold of

I'm going to email this thread to her.

She will be interested in what we have dis coved here.

Thanks to you all and please keep posting your results.

with love and hugs Judy

[jerseyangel]

That's great, Judy! Hopefully, she'll be able to shed more light on all of this for you

This stuff sure gets confusing...the most important thing is finding out what is best for you.

[Judyin Philly]

THANKS PATTI................AND ALL THE REST POSTING.

THIS IS ALL MAKING ME KNOW THAT WE ARE ON TO SOMETHING.

WAS TAKING TO ROBBIN AND WITH THESE WET NITES --ITCHING WHEN I GET UP --I'M THINKING I 'M REALLY REALLY DUMPING...................

TIME WILL TELL IF I'M RIGHT.

TODAY I FEEL 50 #'S LIGHTER IN MY BODY WEIGHT...................I KNOW I'M NOT.............BUT SURE FEEL THAT WAY

JUDY

[jerseyangel]

Judy--

It'll be really interesting to hear what she has to say

[Judyin Philly]

woops double post

[Judyin Philly]

FLORENCE.........Here's a question:What do you think about us all sharing the list of supplements we're taking? Maybe we would learn something from each other's regimens?

I'LL BE BACK TO PUT A LIST HERE.

J

[jerseyangel]

FLORENCE WROTE......Here's a question:

What do you think about us all sharing the list of supplements we're taking? Maybe we would learn something from each other's regimens?

The only suppliment I take is the Caltrate 600--3 times a day, with meals.

I haven't been able to tolerate any other suppliments.

[Rachel--24]

I've been reading all kinds of stuff about fungi and oxalates...seems like several species are oxalate producing but especially Aspergillus.

Oxalate crystals found in lung tissue or sinuses are a diagnostic clue to Aspergillus infection.

Oxalic Acid (A Mycotoxin) Found In Breast Cancer Lesions

Going et al. (1990) found that weddellite (calcium oxalate) crystals are present in calcifications found in the breast tissue of patients with breast cancer. Calcium oxalate crystals are formed when calcium binds with oxalic acid. In human and animal systems, this is a protective process which considerably reduces the severe toxicity of oxalic acid. Oxalic acid is a powerful corrosive agent and oxalate salts are widely used for their cleaning and bleaching properties!

Oxalic acid happens to be a mycotoxin which can be produced by a number of different fungal species. Some fungi produce such large amounts of oxalic acid that they are used for commercial production of the chemical.

Aspergillus niger fungal infection in human lungs produces large amounts of oxalic acid which is extremely toxic to the blood vessels and which may cause fatal pulmonary hemorrhages. Consequently, oxalic acid (calcium oxalate crystals) in the sputum or lung specimens of patients is also an indication of an Aspergillus infection of the lung. These calcium oxalate crystals are the same as the calcium oxalate found in breast cancers.

The presence of oxalates in the breast is indicative of the presence of fungi interwoven within the stages of breast cancer development. Since humans do not make oxalic acid themselves, this is an appropriate conclusion.

All of this soooo much explains my symptoms as well as my severe sensitivity to molds/yeasts/mycotoxins. I did not know that oxalic acid was a mycotoxin!!!

Many fungi, belonging to Ascomycetes, Basidiomycetes and Zygomycetes, a few Lichens and slime mold genera Perichaena and Dianema produce calcium oxalate crystals during some phase of their life cycle.

Accumulation of oxalate by fungi, particularly in Aspergillus, Penicillium and Mucor species is of such an order that these fungi could be used for industrial fermentation for oxalate.

Other sources of dietary oxalates include Aspergillus niger and A. flavus; these fungi produce oxalates as a by-product of their metabolism and frequently contaminate feedstuffs.

The association of oxalate crystal deposition in tissue in Aspergillus niger infection is documented, mostly as a pulmonary aspergilloma. In the reported cases of sinus mycetoma the causative organisms have been either Aspergillus fumigatus or Aspergillus flavus.

[Judyin Philly]

Rachel

this is so interesting to me as my Mother, Father, Mothers brother, Mothers cousin all had Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosisl My family dr found this very interesting as it ususally is not found in a cluster in a family

i have had signs of it on chest x rays.

My dr said is a fungi or mold that is East of Miss river and in the Ohio valley........where we were all raised ....................that might be related or the cause.

of course idiopathic means..........unknown origin...........or cause so ................

i'm wondering if this could be the fungi your discussing.

thanks Rachel.

j

[Rachel--24]

i'm wondering if this could be the fungi your discussing.

thanks Rachel.

j

Hmmmm...I dunno Judy. Its interesting that so many of your family members had the pulmonary fibrosis.

I did read that Aspergillus can cause that.

It seems like the Aspergillus infections occur mainly when the immune system is already weakened. In my case I was going through all that stuff with mercury when I started having the sinus symptoms..

Heres some info...

Aspergillus spores are found everywhere in the environment including the air we breathe. The spores can therefore enter everyone's lungs and can also enter wounds. This is how all Aspergillus diseases are contracted, although the underlying reasons for the different types of Aspergillus diseases differ.

Invasive aspergillosis occurs almost exclusively in people with a damaged immune system. Most people's natural immunity to Aspergillus means that they easily kill Aspergillus spores that enter their body. However, if someone has a damaged immune system, (for example due to leukaemia) they lose their natural protection and may develop invasive aspergillosis.

Aspergilloma, sinus disease and ABPA often occur in people with an apparently healthy immune system. Individuals with ABPA are allergic to the Aspergillus spores that enter their lungs and they "overreact" to small numbers of Aspergillus spores that most people happily tolerate. This may happen with sinus disease as well. Normally, in sinus disease and Aspergilloma, Aspergillus becomes lodged in the lung or sinus often due to a cavity in these organs.

Occasionally individuals with a healthy immune system are infected with Aspergillus. This is rare, however exposure to very large numbers of spores can lead to severe allergic lung disease called extrinsic allergic alveolitis. The most famous example of this is Farmers Lung, where farmers are exposed to massive numbers of Aspergillus spores in silage.

[Judyin Philly]

Thanks Rachel.

I did so much research on IPF when Daddy was so sick and even some of my pulmonary Dr's who I worked with in the medical library were helping me. We kept getting the asbestos's (from the air craft industries plants where my dad and uncle worked and brought home on their clothes) and this fungi/mold from the farm areas where we lived.

my research was 12 years old tho.

maybe there is more out there now.

I still think alot of mine started with the dental extractions=======that you and i have discussed at length.............

think I'm taking this tired brain to bed.

thanks rachel.

nite.

[Flor]

Research on oxalates, biotin, and fatty acids:

The below was posted by Susan Owens on the low oxalate group at Yahoo. It's in vitro research with chick liver cells, as far as I can tell. And what it shows is that oxalates inhibit liver's ability to synthesize fatty acids but INCREASE cholesterol formation AND that biotin deficiency makes this worse. I'm not sure what the last part means but I'll keep looking...

Biotin seems to be coming up a lot on this low oxalate stuff. I'm gonna go get some!

The effects of oxalate and glucose on lipogenesis by isolated hepatocytes

from normal and biotin-deficient chicks (Gallus domesticus).

Abstract:

Isolated hepatocytes synthesize fatty acids and cholesterol from lactate

and acetate with lactate being the more effective substrate. Biotin

deficiency decreased fatty acid synthesis from both substrates but

stimulated cholesterogenesis. Exposure of intact hepatocytes to oxalate

inhibited fatty acid and cholesterol synthesis from lactate, this effect

was enhanced in biotin-deficient chicks. A similar effect was not observed

when acetate was the substrate. Synthesis of fatty acids from lactate and

acetate was stimulated by glucose, biotin deficiency increased this

response. Cholesterogenesis was reduced in control but not biotin-deficient

chicks.

Publication Types:

* In Vitro

[Flor]

Sorry, Susan has this comment about that article:

Listmates,

Gluconeogenesis is making new glucose out of other things, usually amino

acids, but here, lactate. There is a lot of research looking at how biotin

activity within carboxylases is hampered by oxalate and the thought is that

the big part of this impairment is in pyruvate carboxylase. Something

about the results here suggested this enzyme was NOT the big deal. At any

rate, restoring biotin levels kept the oxalate from being so damaging.

Susan

I wonder if biotin could be like calcium in helping to prevent oxalate damage?

[bluejeangirl]

From what I have learned, oxalates are normally digested by a good bacterium in our intestines called oxac. formigenes, and this good bacteria can be destroyed by antibiotics, perhaps vaccines, or long term intestinal illness. Once the bacteria is gone, you cannot digest oxalates normally and they cause a condition called enteric hyperoxalosis, which is a known condition by urologists and some of the more learned gastroenterologists. The oxalates form crystals which are attracted to tissue that has been damaged by injury or illness. Organs, muscles, even bone. Bacteria, such as lyme, or candida and metals bind with the oxalates

.

I'm very interested in trying this diet. The more I'm reading about and all your posts makes me believe this could help me. Like many of you going gluten free helped but I know there's along road ahead to get to where I feel good. To summarize my problems I could say it started with candida yeast shortly after the birth of my second son in 84. But I think it started way before that with mercury poisoning, just as you Rachel. I have alot of fillings and wanted to get them removed but never did. Twice I've had a filled tooth crack and them had them crowned. Which I don't think was done proper.

Anyway yeah the candida was real hard to get rid of took a year of strict dieting and lots of nistatin. I did ok for the next 15 years but I could tell I was getting sicker and sicker. I have alot of jaw and upper neck pain. Joint pain expecially on rainy days along with the brain fog and forgetfullness. The pain seems to be more in the ligements.

Also CFS which makes it hard to get a job. I haven't worked for 8 years.

Anyway I want to thank Patti for starting this thread and Rachel for your input with your research, you always help me out. I'm going to eat more then I should of the vegetables on the limited list because I won't be eating white rice or kellogs corn flakes. I can't eat cabbage or cucumbers either ..... to hard on my system. I get constipatied if I don't eat enough vegetable so I think its wise.

I'm going to just go grainless so I'm alittle worried about losing weight which I don't want to do. I might experiment wih coconut flour. If anyone has made things with it I would love recipes and tips. Also it says acorn squash is good so Im wondering about other squashes like butternut and hubbard squash. I looked on one list and it says zucchinni is bad and the list posted here says zucchinni is good, but summer squash is bad which is what I thought zucchinni was or was a part of that class? Any thouchts? How about patty pan squash?

Anyway I have to run but wanted to introduce myself and hopefully I'll be making some progress reports.

Gail

[jerseyangel]

Hi Gail,

How nice to "see" you again! The list I've been using--

Open Original Shared Link

says that zucchini and summer squashes are both high oxalate.

I don't know for sure, but I've been eating all the winter squashes--acorn, butternet, etc. Pattypan should be fine, too, I would think.

Yes, I appreciate all of Rachel's research, too.

I'm excited that you're giving this a try and I'll be looking forward to your progress reports. It sounds quite challenging with what you have to leave out, but I'm sure you're very used to substituting by now.

[Flor]

CFS, glutathione, methylation and more parallels between "us" and folks with autism:

I just came across this paper on the "sulfurstories" yahoo group (related to the trying-low-oxalate-diet group and also moderated by Susan Owens):

Open Original Shared Link

It's a 45 page research paper, so I won't paste it in here. I haven't read it all, but it looks very readable and addresses the role of glutathione depletion in possibly causing CFS, among other things.

If you want the paper and don't want to join the group, notify me and I'll email it as a word attachment to you.

As a number of folks have mentioned, glutathione seems to be at the center of a lot of these depletion/auto-immune illnesses.

I don't know if studies have been done to see how many people overlap gluten intolerance/celiac with CFS, rheumatoid arthritis, and fibromyalgia, but I bet it's a lot. I think the mechanisms of depletion may be all related, with combo of heriditary and environmental stressors triggering events. And autism shows up through all this stuff as well.

[Flor]

Sorry, add-on post here -- I realized the same guy who did the research paper I mention above wrote a much shorter (2 page) recommendation for treatment of CFS based on glutathione issue.

Please tell me if it's not kosher to post it here and I won't do it again. Since CFS and glutathione and methylation have come up several times and it seems so related, I thought I'd put it here.

Side question: is there an ongoing CFS sub-group on this website? I'm going to go look over at Yahoo too because it seems like we might have stuff to learn from those folks.

January 25, 2007

Suggestions for Treatment of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) based on the Glutathione Depletion

[jerseyangel]

Florence,

We don't have a CFS forum--and I don't recall a thread, either.

Thanks for posting that--it was very interesting.