Oxalates And Nightshades

[Judyin Philly]

HI RACHEL,

I SEE WE WERE POSTING AT THE SAME TIME.

WOULD YOU SAY...HERXING...AND DUMPING...ARE KIND OF THE SAME CONCEPT.........OR ARE THEY TOTALLY DIFFERENT?

SO GLAD YOU SEE YOU CHECKING IN.

JUDY

[Rachel--24]

WOULD YOU SAY...HERXING...AND DUMPING...ARE KIND OF THE SAME CONCEPT.........OR ARE THEY TOTALLY DIFFERENT?

Judy...I havent looked up "dumping" but from what I've read here I would say they are the same thing.

To me herxing = too many toxins overwhelming the elimination organs. They cant get out so they circulate and cause symptoms.

With regards to killing bugs....we end up spilling heavy metals into the system because the bugs bind with metals....especially yeast. That can cause alot of stress on the body.

In Robbins post she mentioned that oxalates bind with heavy metals. I have never looked that up but if thats the case....I would assume some metals get dumped into the system as oxalates are leaving??

Not really sure but I did read (from the link I posted) that oxalates are very similar to sulfur and sulfur definately does bind with heavy metals. Alot of the autistic kids have problems with the sulfation pathway...they have difficulties metabolizing sulfur. These same kids usually do better avoiding oxalates as well.

Oxalates seem to be involved with the sulfur system...so if that is not functioning properly I could see how oxalates would become problematic.

Sulfur metabolism is essential for removing heavy metals and it can be shut down by mercury (or genetic factors).

I have problems with sulfur metabolism as well...all the foods high in sulfur and oxalates are not in my diet. I have no problems with russet potatoes....so nightshades dont affect me.

Oxalates are related to metals - they are very potent in their chelating abilities.

If this is true then its likely oxalates can accumulate in the body (holding onto metals) much in the same way that sulfur does....when there are problems with that particular pathway.

To me it seems linked to heavy metals and the function of the sulfation pathway.

My Dr.'s say these problems with my sulfation pathway will resolve as I become less toxic from the metals. They say the food problems will resolve as I progress

I will have to see how it goes. I only just started my chelation treatment. I will report my progress (and hopefully I have some to report).

[Flor]

And while I'm asking questions, may I ask some more? :-)

Robbin, where again is your journal that's mentioned here a couple of times?

And then this next question I know opens a whole can of worms, but I can't help myself...

I developed anxiety and depression symptoms at the same time that the GI and joint symptoms started -- about 2.5 years ago. I did a year of various SSRIs but ended up hating them -- I think mostly because I am likely a slow metabolizer and they tended to be toxic for me, though they all helped some.

Side note: I've been curious to understand how this slow metabolizer thing (like 8% of the population?) might correllate to our kinds of auto-immune reactions to various stressors (viral, life, etc).

So....I came off all the SSRIs -- coming off effexor was one of the most heinous stretches of my whole life, and then a brief stint with wellbutrin almost killed me, no kidding. Anyway, for the last six months my mental health has been terrific, though my guts not any better.

And THEN, I saw another GI doc a few weeks ago who talked me into eating gluten and dairy and everything for a couple months so he could do a colonoscopy. THREE days after I started eating wheat again, I had a major depressive episode, first one in half a year (and those were actually CAUSED by too much SSRI). And two more horrible episodes followed in the last couple of weeks.

I decided in the last couple of days I couldn't handle the "gluten challenge" and the depression sent me in desperation back to my old bottle of lexapro from two years ago, only 5mg dose. It has helped immediately, but I'm pretty clear I wouldn't have had to go there if it weren't for starting back on eating gluten.

Anyway, I'm curious to know if others have had similar experiences with the anxiety/depression stuff.

Now that I "wimped out" on the gluten challenge and have started this low oxalate diet, I'm thinking I should just cancel the colonoscopy/endoscopy and see how this new diet goes. I'm so skeptical about how useful the mainstream GI stuff is.

I can report, completely unscientifically, that the last two days of low oxalate eating I have had NO gas and NO intestinal discomfort. Those stretches have been very few and far between in the last few years.

[Rachel--24]

And THEN, I saw another GI doc a few weeks ago who talked me into eating gluten and dairy and everything for a couple months so he could do a colonoscopy.

Why does your Dr. want you to eat gluten and dairy before doing a colonoscopy??

Anyway, I'm curious to know if others have had similar experiences with the anxiety/depression stuff.

Yes. BIG-TIME depression for me. I was depressed for more than 2 years....it got to the point where I was not wanting to live. I cried most days...and my brain was pretty messed up...couldnt concentatre or focus on anything...including driving.

The Dr.'s tried to push the antidepressants on me but I instinctively knew that something else was going on....I've never been one to take meds anyways....not even aspirin.

After a couple years I finally gave in and took Prozac for two months (they convinced me to at least try it)...it did nothing for me. They wanted to add Wellbutrin and I said "No way...I tried it..it didnt work."

I ended up sicker as time passed and eventually did a major overhaul on my diet and eliminated alot of "everyday" toxins I was exposing myself to. I havent had problems with depression in over 2 years now.

Occassionaly I have a bad day if I get overwhelmed with chemicals or if I eat something that I shouldnt. Its pretty rare for me to shed any tears now.

[Flor]

Rachel, that's such wonderful news about your not being depressed in the last couple of years.

I guess I'm glad the SSRIs are there but they are a very blunt instrument and certainly don't deal with underlying causes very well.

The GI doc wanted me to eat gluten because I haven't had a definitive celiac diagnosis. I'd been gluten and dairy free for a year when I did the blood test and so tested negative. I had dramatic improvement on the gluten-free diet, but then the symptoms returned after a couple of months, then went soy free and symptoms improved again. Then a month or so later the symptoms returned...so I went to a new GI doc to see what they had to suggest next. The persistence of joint pain seems to make them think celiac more likely, but who the heck knows, right?

I don't actually understand entirely what the colonoscopy/endoscopy can determine. Is it just clinical observation of damage/inflammation that's considered "the gold standard" in celiac diagnosis or is there some definitive lab/pathology work that comes of the procedures that would distinguish celiac damage from say Crohns or ulcerative colitis? I know I should know this by now but I don't....

[Rachel--24]

I don't actually understand entirely what the colonoscopy/endoscopy can determine. Is it just clinical observation of damage/inflammation that's considered "the gold standard" in celiac diagnosis or is there some definitive lab/pathology work that comes of the procedures that would distinguish celiac damage from say Crohns or ulcerative colitis? I know I should know this by now but I don't....

The colonoscopy cant determine anything with regards to Celiac....thats why I asked why he wanted you to eat gluten. The endoscopy is used to diagnose Celiac....so as long as he's gonna do that and not just a colonoscopy its fine....otherwise you'd be eating gluten for nothing!

This page explains what they're looking for when diagnosing Celiac with the biopsy.

Open Original Shared Link

The colonoscopy can look for other issues but thats totally seperate from diagnosing Celiac.

[darlindeb25]

Thanks for asking Patti, my hysterectomy was 6 weeks ago this last Wednesday and I am doing ok. I really do notice those missing hormones though. I was already in menopause, so at least sugical menopause wasn't so rough for me--the tears are the worst.

I can't remember who mentioned some of us having hysterectomies and tumors--mine was for a prolapsed uterus and polyps, which came back benign. So, I'm not sure if that fits your line of thinking.

[aschev]

Like many of you, I've been on the elimination diet that never ends since being diagnosed as celiac this past January. I have been nightshade-free for 11 years (for arthritis & other issues), and am now gluten-free, dairy-free, soy-free, meat-free (eat only fish), low starch, grain-free, and sugar-free. I eat only fish, and limited fruits and vegetables. I went low oxalate because I had developed severe pain surrounding my arthritic joints, and (sorry for being so graphic) stinky urine. Within a day of going low oxalate, the severe pain went away (yay!) but after about a week my joints became severely inflamed, and I'm having chills followed by sweats at night. Severe pain from inflammation (different from the original pain) in one knee wakes me up at night, and it's so swollen it feels like it's going to explode!

I'm not sure if this is considered dumping, but I sure hope so. It's been a few days, and I'm still waiting for some relief.

[Flor]

Let's hope that IS dumping, Aschev! It sounds awful! Keep us posted.

I read through a lot of the case studies in the yahoo group last night and they described the dumping symptoms mostly as more frequent urination and behavioral regression in their autistic kids.

My cousin has an autistic son and she has a hard time figuring out whether there's anything going on GI-wise with him. Anyway, a lot of the specific experiences from the yahoo group are hard to translate over here to those of us with GI issues. Though one woman asked if anyone else's kids had been limping as part of the "dumping" process -- which makes it seem possible it's causing autistic kids joint pain too. Or it could just be coincidence. The communication issues with the ASD kids obviously makes it hard to decipher.

I will say now on my third day of low-oxalate diet that my diarrhea is much worse and that my joints are hurting a bit more, though I am not as bloated and gassy.

I'm worried I'm adding to problems because I've doubled my intake of calcium -- and the supplement I had on hand comes along with magnesium, Vit. D, some plant-based digestive enzymes and a few herbs. It's possible those enzymes and herbs are high oxalate...

What's this thing about calcium citrate being the ideal form? What do you all take and how much? Brand?

I will mention in case it applies to anyone here that melatonin has been shown to aggravate rheumatoid arthritis inflammation. I had been taking it every night for sleep and when I stumbled on the studies about melatonin and RA, I stopped taking it. Within a week or two my joint pain decreased by at least half. It was really quite striking. Though now I'm taking ativan or klonopin (very low dose, but still) to sleep.

[Flor]

Rachel! I meant to say THANK YOU for the link to the site about endoscopy and celiac and for clarifying this for me.

I'm going to have to decide in the next week I guess whether to go back to eating gluten before my Oct 10 endoscopy/colonoscopy or to cancel it and see how it goes with the low oxalate diet.

[Flor]

Dear Gluless,

It sounds like you have had the most dramatic experience on the low oxalate diet of anyone we've heard from so far.

Can I bother you to summarize your experience for us here? Just a quick overview, like how long you've been on it now, how long it took to notice improvement, and how you're feeling now?

Thank you for sharing your experience! It sounds amazing! And like it's been a very long hard road as well!

[Rachel--24]

My cousin has an autistic son and she has a hard time figuring out whether there's anything going on GI-wise with him.

I think pretty much all of the autistic kids have GI problems. All of my current Dr.'s are treating the autistic kids and they do have GI infections, food intolerance, leaky gut, yeast, etc. I've never heard of an autistic child NOT having GI issues. They might not have noticeable symptoms (in comparison to other things going on) but they do tend to have GI problems. Its a major factor in their treatment.

Anyway, a lot of the specific experiences from the yahoo group are hard to translate over here to those of us with GI issues. Though one woman asked if anyone else's kids had been limping as part of the "dumping" process -- which makes it seem possible it's causing autistic kids joint pain too. Or it could just be coincidence. The communication issues with the ASD kids obviously makes it hard to decipher.

I havent joined that Yahoo group but I'm wondering if there is any discussion about *why* oxalates are accumulating to toxic levels in these kids??

From what I read it sounds like its because of an inability to metabolize them...a problem with that pathway. The oxalates are binding with heavy metals...possibly in the brain even.

I think the "dumping" is likely a release of heavy metals which is why many of these kids are experiencing an increase in physical symptoms as well as behavioral regression. The same thing happens during chelation if too much is mobilized at once and the elimination organs cant handle the burden.

I dont think the increase in joint pain would be a coincidence at all....I think its directly related.

If the body cant get rid of something very efficiently...it will circulate throughout the body causing symptoms of toxicity. Heavy metals are stored in the organs and tissue and if oxalates can bind with them...they would likely get stored there as well. This would definately cause inflammation beacause the immune system responds to toxins that are in places that they shouldnt be.

If suddenly the amount of oxalates consumed is reduced the body would finally be able to start getting rid of some of it. In that process I would imagine that heavy metals get mobilized.

These things that bind with metals require a fully functioning sulfation pathway to keep things moving. If there is interference with this process we cannot detox properly. Basically we would start accumulating heavy metals and other toxins.

Also, oxalates deplete gluathione. Glutathione is *the* most important thing we need in order to detox efficiently. Glutathione's role is to detoxify....without it we would die.

I currently have to supplement glutathione for my own condtion.

I'm worried I'm adding to problems because I've doubled my intake of calcium -- and the supplement I had on hand comes along with magnesium, Vit. D, some plant-based digestive enzymes and a few herbs. It's possible those enzymes and herbs are high oxalate...

I have problems with all plant based enzymes and herbs as well...this has been the case for a long time now. I had to completely avoid these things the last few years....otherwise I would deteriorate fairly quickly....it took me awhile to catch on. Now I'm at the point where a few of my supplements contain some herbs and I'm doing ok. My Dr.'s muscle test me first and most herbals I still cannot tolerate...but some I'm ok with in small doses.

Has anyone ever seen any "crystals" from the oxalates?? I actually get some type of crystals that form under my fingernails (never knew what they were but thought it was sulfur related somehow). I wonder if it could be oxalates??

The only other place I see crystals (well it actually looks like salt to me) is on my face. I can actually scrape it off my skin sometimes. As most of you know my most toxic area is my head....lots of mercury and "bugs" hanging out in my jaw...fungus in my sinuses, etc. Over 95% of my symptoms and inflammation is in this area. My lymphatic system is pretty clogged up from all the toxins here.

I'm wondering if oxalates are also accumulating...binding with all these toxins.

I wonder if that could be why those salts come off of my skin from time to time.

How weird would that be??!!

Well....I guess no weirder than anything else thats happened to me.

[Flor]

Someone else on here described the same white stuff coming out of their skin as part of the low oxalate diet, so maybe so!

Also, on this sulpher stuff -- which I don't understand -- a woman on the low oxalate yahoo site who has been low oxalate for many years said she had to sort out her sulphur issues -- I've posted back to ask what that means she did specifically.

She also refered us to another yahoo group led by this same woman/researcher who is running the low oxalate group -- it's called sulphurstories. I just requested access to it. But the home page of it lists a whole mess of sulphur-related supplements that she says some people have done well with and others have had huge problems with. They include MSM, SAM-e, and a bunch of amino acids. I don't remember what else. But I know I've tried about half a dozen of those on the list at various times and I think every one of them has given me diarrhea. So I'm curious to know what this sulphur stuff is about.

Are you all doing fish oil in any amount? Problems or benefits? I've been taking it a long time and don't know if it's helping or hurting.

[Flor]

The role of O.formigenes:

Check out the last sentence especially. We have to read all this kidney stone stuff through the lens of "enteric hyperoxaluria" (too much oxalate in the gut) which IS heavily correllated with celiac and other gut diseases.

This is an abstract from a 2002 article:

"Oxalobacter formigenes and Its Potential Role in Human Health"

Oxalate degradation by the anaerobic bacterium Oxalobacter formigenes is important for human health, helping to prevent hyperoxaluria and disorders such as the development of kidney stones. Oxalate-degrading activity cannot be detected in the gut flora of some individuals, possibly because Oxalobacter is susceptible to commonly used antimicrobials. Here, clarithromycin, doxycycline, and some other antibiotics inhibited oxalate degradation by two human strains of O. formigenes. These strains varied in their response to gut environmental factors, including exposure to gastric acidity and bile salts. O. formigenes strains established oxalate breakdown in fermentors which were preinoculated with fecal bacteria from individuals lacking oxalate-degrading activity. Reducing the concentration of oxalate in the medium reduced the numbers of O. formigenes bacteria. Oxalate degradation was established and maintained at dilution rates comparable to colonic transit times in healthy individuals. A single oral ingestion of O. formigenes by adult volunteers was, for the first time, shown to result in (i) reduced urinary oxalate excretion following administration of an oxalate load, (ii) the recovery of oxalate-degrading activity in feces, and (iii) prolonged retention of colonization.

SO, the issue is that antibiotics or other intestinal damage can eliminate the healthy presence of O.formigenes and that O.F. is KEY for the body being able to handle oxalates AND a SINGLE dose of OF can solve the problem!

I think you all have alluded to this before, but it seems like might be crucial to find a source for O.F. I've taken heavy-duty probiotics for a couple of years and I don't think they help me AT ALL. And I think they cause gas. But maybe part of the problem is that it's missing the key ingredient?

Okay, sorry to be OBSESSIVE here!

[Rachel--24]

Someone else on here described the same white stuff coming out of their skin as part of the low oxalate diet, so maybe so!

Wow! I'm betting thats what it is. Its very obvious under my nails....if it accumulates they can get pretty solid like a piece of crystal! On my face its small...like little pieces of salt.

It really makes alot of sense to me.

Also, on this sulpher stuff -- which I don't understand -- a woman on the low oxalate yahoo site who has been low oxalate for many years said she had to sort out her sulphur issues -- I've posted back to ask what that means she did specifically.

Sulfur metabolism is a part of the methionine pathway....a major detox pathway that is not functioning well in alot of the kids with autism. I've had similar problems since I got sick and became very toxic.

Sulfur foods (garlic, onions, eggs, etc.) bind with mercury....with glutathione and other processes they can help remove heavy metals from the body. Our bodies can manufacture glutathione from sulfur intake. Sulfur is a very important part of the detoxification process.

If a person is toxic from heavy metals these foods dont have the capability to pull out the metals from the tissue and carry it all the way out of the body. They end up mostly moving it around...which is worse then leaving it stored where its at.

If something is wrong with the pathway these foods end up causing problems. I have alot of problems with sulfur foods. I can eat eggs if I remove the yolks...the yolks are the part which is high in sulfur.

Mercury and lead both have a great affinity for sulfur and sulfhydryls and are capable of affecting the transsulfuration pathways in the body.

She also refered us to another yahoo group led by this same woman/researcher who is running the low oxalate group -- it's called sulphurstories. I just requested access to it. But the home page of it lists a whole mess of sulphur-related supplements that she says some people have done well with and others have had huge problems with. They include MSM, SAM-e, and a bunch of amino acids. I don't remember what else. But I know I've tried about half a dozen of those on the list at various times and I think every one of them has given me diarrhea. So I'm curious to know what this sulphur stuff is about.

Some of these sulfur containing supplements are used to chelate heavy metals. None of them are effective by themselves because they dont have the capability to do the job on their own...they might have the ability to pick up mercury but a chelator has to be able to hold onto the metals until they can be excreted. Some of them (like NAC) can pick up mercury from one area and then drag it into the brain...which is not good!

In conjunction with other supplements and if done in the right way...the metals can be chelated safely.

Amino acids help the body to detoxify....three of the amino acids can be manufactured into glutathione. Cysteine (NAC) is one of them...its a sulfur compound...called a "thiol".

To effectively chelate metals 2 "thiols" are required. Sulfur foods and supplements only contain one "thiol"....which can cause them to move mercury from one place to the next instead of clearing it out of the body. This can cause symptoms to worsen.

Also...the immune system will be reactive to mercury that is on the move...so when sulfur is "bound" to it...the immune system can also begin to target the sulfur. This is a common reason for becoming reactive to sulfur foods or supplements.

The only chelators that contain 2 thiols are the ones which are man-made and used specifically to detox heavy metals. I take one of these oral chelators in conjunction with NAC and ALA....the oral chelator as well as glutathione and other supplements help to prevent the NAC and ALA from acting unpedictably...and dragging heavy metals around.

Its all very complicated and there are a few different reasons why someone might not do well on sulfur supplements. Many things can go wrong with the pathway....too much sulfur may already be accumulating in the body and its reached toxic levels...or sulfur bound to mercury and on the move can cause a reaction to occur.

If a person is mercury toxic and the sulfur they take in is binding with that mercury...it disrupts the cycle. That sulfur is needed elsewhere and its not being utilized.

Whenever mercury binds to one of these sulfur-containing molecules, it reduces the molecule's availability for normal metabolic functions.

I dont know what exactly is going on with the oxalates but it sounds very similar to the problems that develop with sulfur....and the oxalates use the same pathway....the sulfation pathway.

I think oxalates can bind with metals and reach toxic levels the same way that sulfur can. If there is a problem with metabolizing the oxalates because the pathway is blocked....then they would circulate and then store themselves in tissue.

Most of the treatments used for autism have also worked for me. My treatment isnt much different from what my Dr.'s are doing with the autistic kids.

Are you all doing fish oil in any amount? Problems or benefits? I've been taking it a long time and don't know if it's helping or hurting.

I tried fish oils early on...about 4 years ago. I know that it was not helping....it made me worse.

Now I do not take "fish" anything because I'm mercury toxic. I know that there are brands out there which are supposedly tested and declared mercury-free...but I have not tried any. I'm being treated so I basically stick to the protocol that my Dr.'s have me on.

[Rachel--24]

Is the woman running the low-oxalate site named Susan??

How do you join?? I tried last night....nothing happened...picked my name "RachelMarie247"....but I couldnt get on.

If its Susan...this is what shes saying about ALA (widely used in chelating mercury).

Oxalates are related to metals - they are very potent in their chelating abilities. Not sure how this relates to DMSA or DMPS, but ALA seems to reduce oxalates. So while we might have thought it was a great chelator, perhaps the effect we

[jerseyangel]

This brings up a good point--how many of us women have had a hysterectomy due to endometriosis or fibroid tumors? I wonder what role oxalates play in the formation of the abnormal tissue?? ........

I forgot to mention the role of leaky gut-which I guess you all have gathered that the lining of the intestine is thinned and permeated by the celiac or other condition and oxalates damage further and circulate throughout the body.

My hysterectomy was due to fibroids (the latgest being 8cm.), endometriosis (which may have an autoimmune connection) and adenomyosis (where the endo infiltrates the uterus). Basically lots of abnormal tissue--interesting.

The connection to leaky gut makes sense. Here is an article that I thought was pretty informative--

Open Original Shared Link

My experience, too. However, I tried using a phase rather than a "name"

I intend to join up as soon as I get the chance.

I'm glad for this thread though (thanks Patti). Hopefully Robbin will stick around and share her experiences.

I hope so too! Rachel, I'm thrilled you have joined in the conversation. I was hoping to get your take on the scientificness of all this.

I developed anxiety and depression symptoms at the same time that the GI and joint symptoms started -- about 2.5 years ago. I did a year of various SSRIs but ended up hating them --

Yes, I also developed depression and to a greater extent, anxiety as my Celiac symptoms became severe. I have some joint pain--that at first became much more widespread when I first tried low oxalate and upped the calcium. It also caused muscle aches.

Thanks for asking Patti, my hysterectomy was 6 weeks ago this last Wednesday and I am doing ok. I really do notice those missing hormones though. I was already in menopause, so at least sugical menopause wasn't so rough for me--the tears are the worst.

Deb--

I'm glad to hear you're doing ok--I was also in menopause at the time of my surgery, so I know exactly what you are saying. I'm not on any HRT by choice, but I couldn't be anyway since I had a stage 4 endometriosis that had spread beyond the organs removed.

The tears will get better! I had a lot of that, but now at about 10 months out, I'm doing much better. Not as many hot flashes, sleeping better at night, etc. You will get there, it's gradual and takes time, but it really does get better

[Rachel--24]

Okay, sorry to be OBSESSIVE here!

This is not a bad thing!

Especially since my own obsessiveness wont stick out so much!

[jerseyangel]

Ok, part 2

I was afraid the board would kick back my post if it got much longer...

Thanks, Judy, for the sample meal plans.

I also wanted to say I'm sorry for being MIA since right after I started this thread. We are smack dab in the middle of selling our house and having to find a new one to be into by the end of October I'm exhausted--both physically and mentally, although it is really going well so far.

I have to say that a year ago--actually 6 months ago--I could not have ever ridden for 3 hours in the back seat of a realtor's car like I did yesterday. I would have freaked out at the thought of riding through the countryside away from any bathrooms and the possibility of having to ask the person driving to stop for me.

It dawned on me yesterday that I was doing something "normal"--I was anxious about it, but went ahead because of how much better I've been lately since beginning this regimen. Last year, I would have had to stay home while my husband went and took pictures for me to look at--instead, I was out there looking for myself!

I know to some that might not sound like much, but it's huge for me. There is definately something to this--I think I'm still at the stage where I'm reacting to the oxalates making their way out, as I do have more aches in my neck, upper arms and thighs. I think it's a good sign, though

I'm also facinated by the oxalate/leaky gut/autism connection.

Thanks for everyone's input--this is very exciting

[jerseyangel]

Especially since my own obsessiveness wont stick out so much!

Girlfriend, I'm right there with you on the obsessiveness

[Rachel--24]

I know to some that might not sound like much, but it's huge for me.

It DOES sound huge!!

Patti...I'm really excited for you! I have a feeling things are gonna keep improving for you. The new house, getting your health back...its all gonna come together.

YAY!!

I'm also facinated by the oxalate/leaky gut/autism connection.

Me too! Not that I really needed anything else to put my brain into overdrive.

[Flor]

Rachel, yes Susan someone runs that yahoo site AND the "sulphurstories" one. She seems to be a researcher at some institute. I don't know the whole story.

To join you have to click "join this group" in the upper right corner of the window and fill out a form and write a few words about WHY you want to join and then wait for her to admit you....which only took a few hours for me, but I don't know how regularly she is on there (I assume it's susan who is the administrator).

The site's a bit cumbersome because you also have to wait for her permission any time you want to start a new thread (not respond to someone else's though). But I guess I appreciate that they are trying to do one thing systematically and so limiting extraneous stuff is important for them. And she clearly has gathered and is gathering a lot of useful research.

I posted a question there about the probiotic O. Formigenes or whatever it's called. Robbin referenced it here a few pages back in her most excellent overview.

I think we ought to find a source for this stuff and try it out. If it's being prescribed for kidney stone folks, then doctors should have access to it. I'm going to call my GI doc this week and ask about it.

More soon NO DOUBT!

[jerseyangel]

catesfolly--

Do you mean Susan Owens? I've been reading some interesting stuff by her--some of it in the link I posted.

Here's more info, I hope this works...

www.drneubrander.com/Files/BioChat%2020051004%20-%20Susan%20Owens.doc -

[Rachel--24]

Thanks for explaining!

I did fill out a form and tried to submit it but it wasnt bringing me to a new page. I never saw anything where I had to explain why I wanted to join. Must have missed that....or it was on the next page which wasnt coming up for me??

Oh well. I was just wanting to read what the posters were saying. I could try again another day...see what happens.

[Rachel--24]

Do you mean Susan Owens? I've been reading some interesting stuff by her--some of it in the link I posted.

Yeah...thats her. She's the one I was quoting from.

She wont let me in the group!!

Didnt know there was a screening process.