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Once Again, The Balsamic Vinegar Issue
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18 posts in this topic

So -

I have had a set back for the past 8 weeks or more. In that time I did buy very expensive Balsamic Vinegar which only lists balsamic vinegar as an ingredient, and have had it almost every day. Then today, I ate at Legal Seafood. I saw that their Balsamic vinagraitte was not gluten-free...no biggie...out of curiousity I asked the source of the gluten, the waitress asked the chef and he said that there was a starch in the dressing that contained gluten and the BALSAMIC VINEGAR itself contained gluten. This piqued my interest further. I asked the waitress what was the source in the vinegar? The chef did not know, but Colavati, the supplier of the balsamic tells Legal Seafood that their balsamic vinegar is not gluten free. I looked at the label and the only suspicious ingredient was caramel color.

So, I panicked and read these threads again...read about the barley malt for sweetner, etc.

Here are my questions:

1) Are labeling laws different when it comes to vinegar? If barley malt is in a balsamic vinegar, why wouldn't it be listed? ( I don't care if I have to read labels. What scares me is when ingredients are NOT listed). Where the heck is the source of gluten in a balsamic vinegar who's only ingredients are grapes, grape must and caramel coloring?

2) I am very nervous now about my expensive balsamic - Olivier from Modena, packaged in Napa Valley CA, purchased at Williams Sonoma where the only ingredient listed is "balsamic vinegar". Are Italian labeling laws so much different? Could barley malt or caramel coloring from a gluten source be in there and not listed?

3) And back to the Colavati from Legal Seafood. If a product is made in the US, then A) wouldn't the caramel color be from corn? and B) wouldn't the barley malt need to be listed merely because it is one of the ingredients?

Again- I don't mind having to read labels, I do mind when ingredients are hidden.

PLEASE HELP!! I do love my Balsamic Vinegar

Nancy

And by the way, In my panic, I read some threads about getting rid of gluten skin products and gluten everything. I did stop using certain lipsticks because that sits on my mouthc, but this misinformation spreads panic unnecessarily. Gluten is not a danger unless it hits the stomach or villi, which can only happen if it is swallowed, then producing / aniti giagladin response which gets into the blood. Gluten has to meet with stomach for a problem to occur. I saw one woman intimating that having sex with someone who eats gluten is a problem!!!!! We all have to be careful, but we need to have all our information as well.

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I buy a brand of president's choice that i called in about. This one is ok. I often have b. vinegar on my salad when we go out. When i don't know what to order i stick with salad with b vinegar, and i have come home sick. So could it be???

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It is important to note that there are various reasons why members join this board: some have Celiac, some have gluten intolerance/sensitivity, some have allergies, and some don't know why they have problems with gluten...and others don't know and are searching for answers. Some have been tested, some have not. Some react to personal care products, and others do not. The information about gluten in products is important and necessary to those that get sick from it, regardless of what the "mechanism" is behind it.

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"And by the way, In my panic, I read some threads about getting rid of gluten skin products and gluten everything. I did stop using certain lipsticks because that sits on my mouthc, but this misinformation spreads panic unnecessarily. Gluten is not a danger unless it hits the stomach or villi, which can only happen if it is swallowed, then producing / aniti giagladin response which gets into the blood. Gluten has to meet with stomach for a problem to occur. I saw one woman intimating that having sex with someone who eats gluten is a problem!!!!! We all have to be careful, but we need to have all our information as well."

Nancy

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And by the way, In my panic, I read some threads about getting rid of gluten skin products and gluten everything. I did stop using certain lipsticks because that sits on my mouthc, but this misinformation spreads panic unnecessarily. Gluten is not a danger unless it hits the stomach or villi, which can only happen if it is swallowed, then producing / aniti giagladin response which gets into the blood. Gluten has to meet with stomach for a problem to occur. I saw one woman intimating that having sex with someone who eats gluten is a problem!!!!! We all have to be careful, but we need to have all our information as well.

I guess the main problem is when gluten in a personal product such as soap comes into contact with your hands which you then use to handle your food or chew your nails etc.

I am not one for paranoia, and have only replaced hand soap and lipsticks, but I would not totally dismiss the skin product issue as it can certainly play a part, particularly if people are very sensitive.

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So -

And by the way, In my panic, I read some threads about getting rid of gluten skin products and gluten everything. I did stop using certain lipsticks because that sits on my mouthc, but this misinformation spreads panic unnecessarily. Gluten is not a danger unless it hits the stomach or villi, which can only happen if it is swallowed, then producing / aniti giagladin response which gets into the blood. Gluten has to meet with stomach for a problem to occur. I saw one woman intimating that having sex with someone who eats gluten is a problem!!!!! We all have to be careful, but we need to have all our information as well.

The idea that gluten has to get all the way into the stomach is a false. Gluten is fully capable of crossing any mucous membrane. This includes the nose, eyes, female private parts (women with DH need to be really careful with scented pads and such to avoid blisters) and so on. Once it gets into the blood stream through a mucous membrane the autoimmune reaction will be triggered in those who have gotten to the point of forming antibodies. Some places use a gluten suppository that is inserted rectally then the tissue is biopsied to look for antibody changes in the tissue a couple of hours later. There are also places that use the mucous membranes in the mouth to do the same test. These tests are very accurate and can diagnose us before the total villi destruction that is required in the US.

Absorption through the mucous membranes may not cause severe GI upset in all, for some of us it will simply reactivate autoimmune disorders that have gone into remission gluten-free, like arthritis and fibro type pain, brain fog, increase in ataxic symptoms or whatever autoimmune process the individual has going. If folks don't want to be concerned about nonfood sources that is fine, it is your body but to say that nonfood sources are not a problem for anyone is frankly dangerous for the newly diagnosed.

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I am not that sensitive a person but I can tell you I used to think that shampoo and conditioner would not matter...I was so wrong, it made my scalp dry and itchy and I never had DH before in my life.

So as Raven and others have stated personal care products are just as important.

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2) I am very nervous now about my expensive balsamic - Olivier from Modena, packaged in Napa Valley CA, purchased at Williams Sonoma where the only ingredient listed is "balsamic vinegar". Are Italian labeling laws so much different? Could barley malt or caramel coloring from a gluten source be in there and not listed?

This is a long and complex subject.

For a lot of historical reasons, not to mention constitutional and well plain greed the US doesn't follow International Law for "Regional Protected" origins.

In a simple way, if its not Trademarked in the US then the US doesn't enforce any international "area trademarks" .

So you can have a cheese made in Florida called Wisconsin Cheddar that has nothing to do with Wisconsin except they decided to call it that because its known for cheese.

The rest of the world excluding Australia (but mainly Europe) have what are known as protected regions. DOP in Italy and DOC in France etc. so Bayon Ham must come from Bayon or it can't be called Bayon Ham... and Dijon Mustard must be made in Dijon. The ingredients, manufacturing process etc. are guaranteed by the region ... and enforced. Chablis must come from the DOC Chablis, the grapes, ingredients and even soil or fertilizers are controlled by Chablis.

Italy has DOP and Modena and Reggio Emila are the two places with a DOP for Basalmic Vinegar. The ingredients, processes etc. are controlled by the regions. Italian or EU law would only kick in if they contained allergens and then it is the region not the government enforces this.

Protected designation of origin (PDO), protected geographical indication (PGI), Protected Geographical Status (PGS)[1] and Traditional Speciality Guaranteed (TSG) are geographical indications (GIs) defined in European Union Law to protect the names of regional foods. The law (enforced within the EU and being gradually expanded internationally via bilateral agreements of the EU with non-EU countries) ensures that only products genuinely originating in that region are allowed in commerce as such. The legislation came into force in 1992. The purpose of the law is to protect the reputation of the regional foods and eliminate the unfair competition and misleading of consumers by non-genuine products, which may be of inferior quality or of different flavor.

These laws protect the names of wines, cheeses, hams, sausages, olives, beers, and even regional breads, fruits, and vegetables. Foods such as Gorgonzola, Parmigiano Reggiano, Asiago cheese, Camembert de Normandie and Champagne can only be labelled as such if they come from the designated region. To qualify as Roquefort, for example, cheese must be made from milk of a certain breed of sheep, and matured in the natural caves near the town of Roquefort in the Aveyron region of France, where it is infected with the spores of a fungus (Penicillium roqueforti) that grows in these caves.

This system is similar to the French Appellation d'Origine Contr

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And by the way, In my panic, I read some threads about getting rid of gluten skin products and gluten everything. I did stop using certain lipsticks because that sits on my mouthc, but this misinformation spreads panic unnecessarily. Gluten is not a danger unless it hits the stomach or villi, which can only happen if it is swallowed, then producing / aniti giagladin response which gets into the blood. Gluten has to meet with stomach for a problem to occur. I saw one woman intimating that having sex with someone who eats gluten is a problem!!!!! We all have to be careful, but we need to have all our information as well.

As others have said ..

Anything that gets onto the skin potentially end up in the mouth ...

Gluten has to meet with stomach for a problem to occur.

I'm not so sure about this... the antibodies just need to be in the blood or the gluten to get into the blood for it to be recognised and antibodies produced. Simply producing antibodies on a continual basis is enough to make many sick and neurological and symptoms like depression I doubt need intoduction via the stomach ..

Crossing the stomach/blood barrier is only one way... I wouldn't want to inject gliadin into a vein... yet this is what you do if you shower with a cut.

Either way ... unless someone can convulsively show that injecting gliadin is harmless I think safer is beter than sorry. There are far nastier reactions to gliadin than lost villi and a bit of D...

I saw one woman intimating that having sex with someone who eats gluten is a problem!!!!!

Again, yes there is a lot of misinformation .. however there is actually far more misinformation given out by GP's, GI's and nutritionists in the other direction just because they have never considered it.

How many people got told to at least clean utensils and dump the toaster by a GP or GI? That they need different dishcloths etc. ??

Last time I was ill from glutening my GP asked if I accidentally ate some cake ... or something ?? because they really don't have a clue of all the places gluten can be and mostly how little it takes to actually cause a reaction.

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3) And back to the Colavati from Legal Seafood. If a product is made in the US, then A) wouldn't the caramel color be from corn? and B) wouldn't the barley malt need to be listed merely because it is one of the ingredients?

And by the way, In my panic, I read some threads about getting rid of gluten skin products and gluten everything.

I have learned that if a producer says "it's not gluten free", it almost certainly isn't. Sometimes if they say "no gluten ingredients, but we can't guarantee it's gluten free", that means they use an outside ingredient that they can't be 100% sure about. Yes, we gluten-free types sometimes have to err on the side of caution or pretend to be mind readers ;) caramel color (maybe from a non-US source??) or cc would be my best guesses with the Colavati.

gluten can make me feel panicky too. And it is a hassle to go through every darn personal care product at, especially at first. For me, I went gradually and did find my cc and topical irritation dropped as I eliminated gluten (and fragrance, but that might be another sensitivity and not necessarily gluten) from products I use. Now that I've *almost* checked everything, it's easier, I just replace what runs out as I go along (reading the label every darn time). So hang in there :) And consider setting a timer before websurfing if you are panicking...may sound silly, but helps me avoid a downward mental spiral sometimes.

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Hi-

I started this thread. Someone misread what I wrote. I DO use gluten-free lipsticks...Of course I do.

Also, I misspoke. For gluten to do damage to the villi is a big problem and to produce an auto-immune reaction is another big problem. You guys are correct. And the inflammatory response is no picnic. We all leave out foods for many reasons, not only because they damage the stomach directly, we leave them out because of the response they cause. i do apologize for misspeaking.

However, I still stick to what I said about being careful. Information is power only if it is CORRECT information. I am relatively calm in my gluten-free life now but I can still get panicky from time to time. What keeps me calm is staying informed with the best facts at the time because that is all i can go on. I am straight up Celiac and I get no direct gluten whatsoever. Never did. Other than horrible overall health, that is.

Didn't mean to stir up the pot so much, I am really most interested in the Balsamic Vinegar. The information about DOPs in Europe was interesting. Sounds like Modena polices itself in terms of including allergens on the label...and so does that mean we can not trust the label for its ingredients?

Concerning the I did panic because I do not get a reaction when I eat gluten, for me it is literally like the silent killer. I am straight up Celiac with no immediate or intermediate reaction when I eat it whatsoever. So, I only have facts to go on, not my gut, literally, to tell me when I've eaten gluten.

Thanks again for any more info-

Nancy

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Hi-

I started this thread. Someone misread what I wrote. I DO use gluten-free lipsticks...Of course I do.

Also, I misspoke. For gluten to do damage to the villi is a big problem and to produce an auto-immune reaction is another big problem. You guys are correct. And the inflammatory response is no picnic. We all leave out foods for many reasons, not only because they damage the stomach directly, we leave them out because of the response they cause. i do apologize for misspeaking.

However, I still stick to what I said about being careful. Information is power only if it is CORRECT information. I am relatively calm in my gluten-free life now but I can still get panicky from time to time. What keeps me calm is staying informed with the best facts at the time because that is all i can go on. I am straight up Celiac and I get no direct gluten whatsoever. Never did. Other than horrible overall health, that is.

Didn't mean to stir up the pot so much, I am really most interested in the Balsamic Vinegar. The information about DOPs in Europe was interesting. Sounds like Modena polices itself in terms of including allergens on the label...and so does that mean we can not trust the label for its ingredients?

Concerning the I did panic because I do not get a reaction when I eat gluten, for me it is literally like the silent killer. I am straight up Celiac with no immediate or intermediate reaction when I eat it whatsoever. So, I only have facts to go on, not my gut, literally, to tell me when I've eaten gluten.

Thanks again for any more info-

Nancy

Hi,

Well done for starting such a heated debate :)

I have also had problems with balsamic vinegar. I know it is meant to be gluten free, but I have reacted to it several times even having chosen ones that are meant to be 100% balsamic. I have no idea why, perhaps it is another allergy that I am unaware of. I usually just ask for lemon juice and olive oil on my salads.

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balsamic vinegar, having sulfites, can bother some people. but a balsamic from modena is just grapes. (I've been there, went through a very cute vinegar producer's factory, learned the whole process - in broken english! ;) ) caramel color should not be added to any even "decent" quality balsamic vinegar. (yes, I'm a food snob. :P ) that's not to say that vinegar won't bother your stomach - it's 12.5% acid!

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balsamic vinegar, having sulfites, can bother some people. but a balsamic from modena is just grapes. (I've been there, went through a very cute vinegar producer's factory, learned the whole process - in broken english! ;) ) caramel color should not be added to any even "decent" quality balsamic vinegar. (yes, I'm a food snob. :P ) that's not to say that vinegar won't bother your stomach - it's 12.5% acid!

Moreover its illegal in Modena and Reggio Emila.

The information about DOPs in Europe was interesting. Sounds like Modena polices itself in terms of including allergens on the label...and so does that mean we can not trust the label for its ingredients?

Its not really about the allergens, if they had allergens then the EU would force them to label them but the policing is done very very strictly to ensure the livelyhood of the region and the product from how it is grown and harvested to what exactly can be put in. This works well for us :D because these methods are traditional before additives. The idea is that everyone has the same raw materials and the same chance and the quality of the end-product is down to the "art" of the producer.

Most of the DOC and DOP are areas that would be astoundingly poor was it not for their much sought after traditional product. Even if say Basalmic vinegar could be made "better" using some additives the rest of the producers would be VERY VERY pissed if they thought someone was cutting corners.

There are even non DOP and DOC local laws. To give one which is funny for us .. in Naples you cannot call a Pizza "Neopolitan" unless you are certified and tested. From memory it has to be cooked on in wood powered stove, the mozeralla must be from cattle feeding on a certain grass in a certain area... and the quality is tested. As I remember this is just a local by-law. The funny part is you can't buy a gluten-free Neopolitan Pizza, they have to call it something else.. (there are at least 5-6 great gluten-free pizza places in Naples)

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So -

I have had a set back for the past 8 weeks or more. In that time I did buy very expensive Balsamic Vinegar which only lists balsamic vinegar as an ingredient, and have had it almost every day. Then today, I ate at Legal Seafood. I saw that their Balsamic vinagraitte was not gluten-free...no biggie...out of curiousity I asked the source of the gluten, the waitress asked the chef and he said that there was a starch in the dressing that contained gluten and the BALSAMIC VINEGAR itself contained gluten. This piqued my interest further. I asked the waitress what was the source in the vinegar? The chef did not know, but Colavati, the supplier of the balsamic tells Legal Seafood that their balsamic vinegar is not gluten free. I looked at the label and the only suspicious ingredient was caramel color.

So, I panicked and read these threads again...read about the barley malt for sweetner, etc.

Here are my questions:

1) Are labeling laws different when it comes to vinegar? If barley malt is in a balsamic vinegar, why wouldn't it be listed? ( I don't care if I have to read labels. What scares me is when ingredients are NOT listed). Where the heck is the source of gluten in a balsamic vinegar who's only ingredients are grapes, grape must and caramel coloring?

2) I am very nervous now about my expensive balsamic - Olivier from Modena, packaged in Napa Valley CA, purchased at Williams Sonoma where the only ingredient listed is "balsamic vinegar". Are Italian labeling laws so much different? Could barley malt or caramel coloring from a gluten source be in there and not listed?

3) And back to the Colavati from Legal Seafood. If a product is made in the US, then A) wouldn't the caramel color be from corn? and B) wouldn't the barley malt need to be listed merely because it is one of the ingredients?

Again- I don't mind having to read labels, I do mind when ingredients are hidden.

PLEASE HELP!! I do love my Balsamic Vinegar

Nancy

And by the way, In my panic, I read some threads about getting rid of gluten skin products and gluten everything. I did stop using certain lipsticks because that sits on my mouthc, but this misinformation spreads panic unnecessarily. Gluten is not a danger unless it hits the stomach or villi, which can only happen if it is swallowed, then producing / aniti giagladin response which gets into the blood. Gluten has to meet with stomach for a problem to occur. I saw one woman intimating that having sex with someone who eats gluten is a problem!!!!! We all have to be careful, but we need to have all our information as well.

Nancy.....you obviously have touched on a nerve here but I must agree with you completely on this one. Except for those with DH, who react topically, gluten has to reach the gut for a reaction to occur and this medical fact can be backed up with any reference to Celiac Disease. Gluten cannot be absorbed through a mucous membrane because the molecule is just too large to do so. But if some want to believe that it does and go to greater lengths wth their personal care products, that's their choice. I take care with lipstick, for obvious reasons, and eye drops, because the medication will end up going down the back of your throat. The hand soap thing is beyond me as I usually rinse all soap off before drying so the problem should be taken care of. To back this up, my blood work is fantastic so I KNOW I am not ingesting gluten. Simple enough to find out with a blood test.

The balsamic vinegar problem may be from sulfites because balsamic does not contain gluten....especially the good stuff. It's all I use on salads and I have never had a problem with it. If it does contain caramel coloring, that is safe if the source is US made...it's made from corn here. From Italy, it could be another story. I highly doubt any reputable balsamic manufacturer in Italy would ever use barley malt in their product...they are food purists and tend to not do stuff like that. I have used the Williams Sonoma brand and have had no problems. Maybe try another brand and see if it makes you feel bad?

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Nancy.....you obviously have touched on a nerve here but I must agree with you completely on this one. Except for those with DH, who react topically, gluten has to reach the gut for a reaction to occur and this medical fact can be backed up with any reference to Celiac Disease. Gluten cannot be absorbed through a mucous membrane because the molecule is just too large to do so. But if some want to believe that it does and go to greater lengths wth their personal care products, that's their choice. I take care with lipstick, for obvious reasons, and eye drops, because the medication will end up going down the back of your throat. The hand soap thing is beyond me as I usually rinse all soap off before drying so the problem should be taken care of. To back this up, my blood work is fantastic so I KNOW I am not ingesting gluten. Simple enough to find out with a blood test.

The balsamic vinegar problem may be from sulfites because balsamic does not contain gluten....especially the good stuff. It's all I use on salads and I have never had a problem with it. If it does contain caramel coloring, that is safe if the source is US made...it's made from corn here. From Italy, it could be another story. I highly doubt any reputable balsamic manufacturer in Italy would ever use barley malt in their product...they are food purists and tend to not do stuff like that. I have used the Williams Sonoma brand and have had no problems. Maybe try another brand and see if it makes you feel bad?

Gemini-

Thank you so much for this reply - both parts - about the gluten and about the balsamic vinegar. I did touch on a nerve, though, didn't I? One's mind can go crazy with gluten paranoia and you become afraid to eat, breath, wash, drink and in some people's case, have sex...I gain security from knowing the facts and the exceptions to the facts. The Colavita Balsamic only has grape, grape must and caramel coloring as ingredients and is produced in Linden, NJ. But, they claim to Legal Seafood that they are not gluten free. So, that is when my equation that I trust (if made in US caramel coloring made from corn) came into question, thereby calling into question other balsamic vinegars. I think the remaining thing I question are: Can we trust caramel color from Italy and does Italy have to list caramel color as an ingredient?

I am being a crazy detective. Like I mentioned, I get NO reaction from gluten, it has silently given me dozens of diseases, so I can't go by a "reaction". And like you all mentioned I get many other food reactions, so who is to say what is causing what. Usually, sulfites give me a headache or a full headed feeling...hard to explain. I did not get this reaction from the Olivier vinegar - I got no reaction, excepts I was getting weaker, losing my strength as the days went by.

If you try the Williams Sonoma brand and have not had a problem I will give it a try.

And thanks again-

nancy

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Nancy.....you obviously have touched on a nerve here but I must agree with you completely on this one. Except for those with DH, who react topically, gluten has to reach the gut for a reaction to occur and this medical fact can be backed up with any reference to Celiac Disease. Gluten cannot be absorbed through a mucous membrane because the molecule is just too large to do so. But if some want to believe that it does and go to greater lengths wth their personal care products, that's their choice. I take care with lipstick, for obvious reasons, and eye drops, because the medication will end up going down the back of your throat. The hand soap thing is beyond me as I usually rinse all soap off before drying so the problem should be taken care of. To back this up, my blood work is fantastic so I KNOW I am not ingesting gluten. Simple enough to find out with a blood test.

The balsamic vinegar problem may be from sulfites because balsamic does not contain gluten....especially the good stuff. It's all I use on salads and I have never had a problem with it. If it does contain caramel coloring, that is safe if the source is US made...it's made from corn here. From Italy, it could be another story. I highly doubt any reputable balsamic manufacturer in Italy would ever use barley malt in their product...they are food purists and tend to not do stuff like that. I have used the Williams Sonoma brand and have had no problems. Maybe try another brand and see if it makes you feel bad?

Yes...all good information.

I do TRY to buy gluten free topical products just in case I do have a gluten reactions, I can eliminated that source immediately. I do not find it critical to my health and I do not have any DH issues.

In the past three years information as developed and changed quite a lot. As Gemini stated caramel color is not a gluten issue in the US, but it does take some time for the correct information to filter down to where it is considered safe to all concerned. There still are many incorrect myths still floating around that just won't die. :(

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I am so glad to have run across this thread! I definitely have avoided caramel color like the plague unless I knew about the product's gluten free status beforehand. Whew! It is great to know that US-made is okay (well, depending on what is going on with this vinegar).

Nancy, I feel you on the no reaction thing -- I cannot say definitively whether in the past two and a half years of glutenfreeness I've been sick because of gluten... there have been times when I've felt bad, but nothing for sure. When I got diagnosed I just felt generally bad, weak... but no surefire reaction immediately after eating gluten.

Whenever I put any vinegar on a salad, with the first bite, I feel like I want to gag. It has only come about in the past year or so... I am pretty much not eating it anymore because it makes me a little nauseated. Sounds like I should check the sulfite issue. Thanks to all of you!

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    • I see no one has responded to your query.  Unfortunately I have yet to try making a pie crust.  It was something I never mastered before going gluten free.  Have you looked on Pinterest?  You might find something there.
    • I honestly feel like both doctors think it's all in my head even though there is proof.  Yeah there was a point when I felt crazy.  That was when I was being shuffled from dr to dr being given individual diagnoses of my problems.  None of those diagnoses ever made me get better.  Seriously I was diagnosed with heart palpitations, neurocardiogenic syncope, I was given a butt load of steroids because a dr felt like I was producing too much adrenaline, freaking had a few tell me I was depressed, and the good ol IBS.  It seemed most wanted to push pills.  It's all just ridiculous!
    • I can't believe your doctors!!! You have a daughter who is dx'd already! Yet the ped doesn't want to test your other kids unless you have a dx????!!! Are you kidding me???!!! That's absurd!!! They have a first degree relative who has been dx'd with celiac already. There is no need to wait to see what you turn out to be!! And then, and then, and then....don't even get me started on your doctor!!! Does he have brain damage? Oh this is insane & ridiculous!  I have never heard of a disease that doctors are so unwilling to consider or test for OR to diagnose as this one! Usually they are hot to trot to make a dx but say the word celiac & they shake in their boots. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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