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Taking Communion At New Church And Dh


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#31 brizzo

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 08:43 AM

James tells us the same thing here in Chapter 2. Faith and Deeds

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
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#32 purple

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 09:19 AM

Purple, I have asked myself these questions before... I once believed as you did, I am not a cradle lutheran. I also would like you to know that I agree with you about not trying to convert each others beliefs or attack. I think that it is great that we can have discussions civilly about the Bible. I actually enjoy it! =)

Here is what took me many years to learn. As I am not easilly "sold" into theology.

"how can the bread and wine be Jesus' actual body and blood when he wasn't dead yet?"

The same way he said "let there be light", and "I am in the father and the father is in me", his word is inerrant. he says it----it is , period

John tells us this.... Chapter 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

You referenced the word communion's definition..... Do a search on biblegateway.com for the word communion in the Bible. You won't find it. This is a human descriptor for a spiritual and Biblical thing. It's man-made definition, 2,000 years later, is meaningless to Christ's words.

You give many scriptural examples of "spiritual implication" in the Bible. While I agree that many of your examples are correct. The references to the last supper in the gospels, are not meant to be interpreted this way in the original Greek text. I have studied this Greek. And not to get too collegiate, here it is in a nut-shell. Matthew (Mt 26:26), Mark (14:22) and Luke (22:19) use exactly the same Greek words for “This is my body”.

Touto estin to soma mou
This is the body of me

When the text is examined in relationship to Greek grammar employed in the passage, the meaning becomes very clear. Touto (this) is a neuteral demonstrative adjective (in Greek, words are male, female, or neutral...similar to Spanish) . It can’t modify or refer to bread, which is a masculine noun. Instead, it clearly refers to soma (body), which is a nominative neuteral noun. Therefore the only possible translation in English is: “This [substance in my hands] is my body.”

The verses you gave in reference to "spiritual implication" do not share this same masculine/feminine vs. neuter demonstrative sentence structure. Actually, I believe that this is one of the few times (possibly the only time) that Christ is recorded in this way. He is VERY SPECIFIC HERE! It is indeed meant quite literally. This IS my body.

Paul uses a somewhat different Greek construction in his First Letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor 11:24).
Touto mou estin to soma
This of me is the body
Once again, however, the meaning is very clear. Paul’s positioning of mou (of me) strengthens the meaning of touto (this). The text is so clear that Jesus is speaking about his body that it is so reflected in most English translations. What was only bread is only bread no longer. It is "my body."

Once again. I think scripture already answers this for us in 1 Corinthians 10:16
...Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Well?

As far as "Do this in remembrance of me." You partake in his body and blood while remembering him, not thinking about last night's ball game. Simply put. Jesus did not say...."forget about all that body and blood stuff I just said, five minutes ago...I must have been hallucinating... just eat juice and crackers... and oh yea, think about me when you do it, that would be nice....I'd like that.."

you stated..."If Christ's actual body and blood are in the bread and wine then he is being sacrificed over and over." -you said this....not me...

This is very Catholic theology. (No offense to Catholics). But I don't buy it. Every time we sin and repent, we are guilty for his crucifixion, and are baptized in his blood. Again and again. His blood is forever there. We are not re-sacrificing Christ again and again. I believe you might be referencing the Catholic term of "Sacrifice of the alter" , when referring to communion. Once again, I am not Catholic. If I believed this or saw it in the Bible, I'd convert. But as far as I know, it's not in there. I would answer answer your question about re-sacrifice a little more, but I am not sure where your point of reference for this came from. I don't buy this theology, it's not Biblical, and I never said it, nor do I believe it.

I share with you in your prayer of
Luke 24:45
Then opened he (Jesus) their understanding that they might understand the scriptures.

Learning this is not easy and can be downright painfull. It's like trying to learn how big space is. It makes my brain explode, and I'd rather not think about it. I think many people in this world do this with theology, and it is sad. I am glad to see people like yourself, me, and many others on here, still have the desire to learn the truth. I believe that you and I have made progress in that department. Even if we differ in theology!

Many blessings, Brizzo!


Which Bible version do you study from?

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? Communion IS written in the scriptures.
http://www.av1611/kjv/counterfeit.html
http://www.hissheep....he_kjv_niv.html
http://bloomsburgbap...ch.net/NIV.html
Http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/...esuitPriest.htm
http://www.learntheb...aring Bible.htm
There are tons of sites to research bible versions and why/how they are changed.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book.

In the NIV, in Luke 11, the translators have removed 1/2 of the Lord's prayer.
In the NKJV, over 20,000 words are taken away and over 100,000 are changed.

http://www.fillthevo...ferences-1.html
http://www.jesus-is-...m/nkjvdead.html

God's word is being taken away from us, one word at a time.
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Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28

#33 brizzo

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 10:52 AM

purple, I always reference back to the original language, Greek and Hebrew. This is where we can find the original word of God. I agree with you and your reference that the Bible can be lost in translation. This is why I referenced the original Greek for you. I agree with you on the idea that things can be lost in translation. I believe this is what has happened in the lords supper.

As far as the word "communion". There is no Greek word in the original text for this. This is what the English language has "learned" to call it. Go to biblegateway.com ; here u can search every version of the Bible known to man in all languages in one search. Type the word communion and search ALL versions of the Bible for this word. It's simply not there. I assure u that I am not changing the word of God. Purple, that was a cheap shot. I always good evidence from the Bible. I though we were having a civilized, mature conversation here. I would never accuse u of being a heretic for having a different opinion.
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#34 brizzo

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 01:30 PM

Purple ,,,,,I STAND CORRECTED!!!!!!!! The term communion IS in the bible, I did not select all versions on my search! But I did find some very interesting things. Out of the 19 versions of the bible that I found...4 use the term communion, 15 use blessing or thanks, in the scripture you referenced.
Here they are
I Corinthians 10:16

message version-the cup of blessing
KJV-communion
NIV-thanksgiving
NASB-cup of blessing
Amplified-blessing
Mew Living-Bless/body/blood
ESV-body/blood
contemporary english version-blessing
New KJV-blessing
New century version-blessing
American Standard-communion
young's literal translation-blessing
darby- blessing/communion-both
holman christian standard-blessing
new international-body/blood/thanks
wycliff version-communion/blessing
worldwide english-blessing
NIV-UK-thanksgiving
Today's NIV-thanksgiving

The greek puts it like this
I cointhians 10:16

to pothrion thV eulogiaV o eulogoumen, ouci koinwnia estin tou aimatoV tou cristou; ton arton on klwmen, ouci koinwnia tou swmatoV tou cristou estin;

The word here is koinwnia or koinonia, pronounced (koy-nohn-ee'-ah). 1 Corinthians 10:16 (KJV) use the English word “communion” to represent the Greek word of koinonia. But most all other Biblical translations use the term "blessing" and do not include the term, communion. KJV reads... "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" Any common meal certainly could represent a “sharing.” The Greek term koinonia is viewed as much deeper, however, when the meal is associated with a spiritual purpose. Joining in the Lord’s Supper is uniting oneself with other believers in the body and blood of Christ. To "become one" through His body and Blood in the bread and wine.

The word, koinonia, has such a multitude of meanings that no single English word is adequate to express its depth and richness. It is a derivative of "koinos," the word for common . Koinonia is a complex, rich, and thoroughly fascinating Greek approach to building community or teamwork.

The great Theologian , Thomas Aquinas, was quoted as saying,"the Eucharist is the sacrament of the unity of the Church, which results from the fact that many are one in Christ." This was in the 13th century. WAAAAYYYY before Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, King James Version, New Standard Version, The message.....ect.

A matter of fact, this was considered the actual body and blood of Christ by ALL Christians from about 2-300 AD (the early church) untill about the mid 1500's. This was around the first time that it is ever recorded in history as a debate of being only a remberance meal. This was first debated by Luther and Zwingli.

So if what you say is correct, then that means that for 1500 years, ALL CHRISTIANS WERE WRONG! IF this is what you are indeed saying, that is BOLD!!!!!!

People have been taking bread and wine as body and blood for about 2000 yrs back untill Christ's time. The remembrance meal is only 500 years deep in history. Ask yourself, who changed the Biblical meaning of Koin-a-nia!

I do apologize about the no communion comment. I stand corrected. But I don't think that discredits my above argument.
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#35 Lisa

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 01:45 PM

This thread is about a person with Celiac Disease receiving or not receiving Communion and what options are available.

Theological discussion are discouraged and Bible Study should not be held on the general forum.
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Lisa

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"Not all who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

#36 brizzo

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 02:08 PM

I started this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you are telling me what I can and can't say. What kind of forum is this??????????
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#37 Lisa

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 02:11 PM

I started this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you are telling me what I can and can't say. What kind of forum is this??????????



As I stated earlier, theological discussions here are discouraged.
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Lisa

Gluten Free - August 15, 2004

"Not all who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

#38 brizzo

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 02:16 PM

I am having a mature conversation with adults that I happen to respect. There is no "ugliness" here.

What else is off limits here?....... Abortion, politics, talking bad about communist China!

How childish!

Where is this healthy or right.......

Are you a moderator on this forum?.....
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#39 Lisa

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 02:22 PM

Are you a moderator on this forum?.....
[/quote]


Yes sir, I am.
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Lisa

Gluten Free - August 15, 2004

"Not all who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

#40 psawyer

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 03:14 PM

These boards are run for specific purposes, by an individual, at his expense. I think that he has the right to make rules and appoint moderators (I am one as well) to monitor them.

This section is titled Dermatitis Herpetiformis and has as its purpose, "Discussions concerning the skin condition associated with celiac disease." This is clearly visible on the home page, as is the subject matter of each of the sections. This site is run to focus on specific areas of interest, and is not a general purpose discussion forum.

The discussion in this thread is no longer about coping with Dermatitis Herpetiformis, and is therefore no longer consistent with the purpose of this forum.
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Peter
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#41 brizzo

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 03:40 PM

I'm done ... you win!


I can point you to hundreds of posts where they have "gotten off topic" from gluten. This happens to just one of them. I can't count the amount of times the last post in a 3 page thread has had NOTHING to do with the main topic, or even venture off course a bit. Nothing in this thread is any different. It just happens to be about God. I found it to be a very intriguing thread, and in no way a nuisance on here.

After two years as an advanced community member on this board, I will be canceling my account. I can no longer be a part of a group that only enforces moderation of religion.I will be posting my goodbye to all in one last thread, then I will delete my account in several days, after all have had a chance to read it.

Problem solved...

Brizzo
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#42 blueeyedmanda

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 04:18 PM

I am sorry you feel that way, but this board has rules for a reason.
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#43 Lisa

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 04:22 PM

brizzo,

I am sorry that you feel that way.

As I mentioned in a Personal Message to you, this membership is made up from people all around the world with various religious beliefs. Therefore, the policy of this site is to refrain from topics such as politics, religion and sex for the obvious reasons. As history will tell, those subjects never end well here (as evident in your most recents posts).

If you still feel compelled to close your membership, you must contact the Administration directly.
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Lisa

Gluten Free - August 15, 2004

"Not all who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

#44 home_based_mom

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 04:50 PM

Perhaps you could carry on the conversation in the section about anything except Celiac. While this thread has indeed deviated far from DH, it seems that over in that section you are free to discuss (politely and courteously and within obvious social limits) whatever you want.
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Sandi ~ learning to live in a world obsessed and infested with wheat.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" probably was not referring to us . . .
"For the love of money gluten is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." (apologies to 1 Timothy 6:10 (NASB)
The person we most dislike is still a soul for whom Christ died. (David Jeremiah)

#45 AndreaB

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 04:57 PM

My understanding is that is it ok to mention God on this forum and there is no restriction of such. The problem arises when you start quoting scripture. That is something that can be done in PM's. There are many faiths represented on this board and I've been on other threads within the last two years that haven't gone into studies, that got heated.

We all need to respect that others may believe differently than we do. Even threads for prayer are answered by those who don't necessarily believe in God but will keep the people in their thoughts.

There are also many threads on communion, although I don't remember what section they are in.


Putting on my moderator cap as well. Bible study is not a "safe" topic on an open forum like this. There are other forums out there for that, and I'm sure many of them. There is need of keeping constroversial topics off of a public forum where anyone can read and sign up and join in a fight. If you look at the disallowed topics under the gab/chat section that will give a good idea of "hot", controversial topics.
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Andrea

Enterolab positive results only June 06:
Me HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0201; HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0301; Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 2,3 (subtype 2, 7)
Husband HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0201; HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0302; Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 2,3 (subtype 2,8)



The whole family has been soy free since February, gluten free since June 2006.

The whole family went back to a gluten diet October 2011.  We never had official testing done and I decided to give gluten a go again.  At this point I've decided to work on making some gluten free things again, though healthwise everyone seems to be fine.  The decision to add gluten back in was also made based on other things I'd read about the 2nd sequence of genes.  It is my belief that we had a gluten intolerance, but thanks to things I've learned here, I know more what to keep an eye on.  If you have a confirmed case of celiac, please don't go back to gluten, it's a lifelong lifestyle change.



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