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Gut Imbalance And Dysbiosis Behind Everything.


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90 replies to this topic

#1 AliB

 
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:50 PM

The more research I do the more I am realising that it is not gluten that is behind all these illnesses but gut dysbiosis.

It starts right from birth, particularly when a baby is either not, or only temporarily breast-fed as their little guts do not develop the right balance of flora. Then it will be exacerbated by other factors - anti-biotics (I was given loads as a child), high carb and high sugar foods that encourage the growth of the rogue bacteria, later on, things like 'the Pill', painkillers, etc., can all contribute to the imbalance.

When the gut flora is out of balance, not only can the digestion not cope with certain foods, like gluten and dairy, but the bacteria is also producing copious quantities of toxins, placing a huge stress on to the liver.

The pathogens are extremely adaptive, so change their environment and they will adapt. I was reading about Pyrroluria (or Pyroluria) - I came across a forum where some had tried the suggestion of extra B6 and Zinc. They were finding that they would feel better for a few days or weeks but then go back downhill.

What seems to happen is that we are deficient in these vitamins and minerals because the bacteria are robbing the body of them. When we supplement with extra to compensate, it actually makes those bacteria stronger and they then consume the extra supplements. If we then stop taking them, we become even more deficient.

I proved that some years back, although I didn't realise what was happening. For a while I was taking extra zinc and felt better. I didn't catch cold for months. I stopped taking it for some time then when I resumed taking it again it was no longer protecting me like before and I didn't understand why. I know now.

I have found the following article which is extremely interesting and gives a lot of support and credence to this. It makes VERY interesting reading.

I know that Rachel has spoken quite a lot about gut dysbiosis and I am convinced that it is the key. Whether we can find the lock to put it in is the dilemma!

http://www.loveyourb...ources/gut.html
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Ali - 50 - struggled with what I now know to be GI symptoms and poor carb digestion for at least 35 years! Diabetic type II (1997). Mother undx Celiac - lifelong diabetic Type 1 & anemic (plus 1 stillborn and 10 miscarriages after me). Father definitely very GI.

Stopped gluten & dairy, Jan 08, but still other issues so dropped most carbs and sugar and have been following the Specific Carb Diet (SCD) since March 08. Recovery slow but steady and I can now eat a much broader range of foods especially raw which are good for my digestion and boost my energy level.

Not getting better? Try the SCD - it might just change your life.........

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#2 Fiddle-Faddle

 
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:33 PM

That IS interesting. Thank you for posting it.

It does spark some questions, though.

What about those of us who did get better on the gluten-free diet, but are not low-sugar or low-carb?

What about those of us who weren't breastfed (back then, the doctors were even worse idiots than they are now)--but were healthy for decades and THEN had celiac triggered?

What about the relationship of vaccines to all these problems?
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#3 AliB

 
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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:13 PM

That IS interesting. Thank you for posting it.

It does spark some questions, though.

What about those of us who did get better on the gluten-free diet, but are not low-sugar or low-carb?

What about those of us who weren't breastfed (back then, the doctors were even worse idiots than they are now)--but were healthy for decades and THEN had celiac triggered?

What about the relationship of vaccines to all these problems?


Hmm. That takes some thought. It seems that the bacterial imbalance may run in families. Presumably, the more different types of rogue bacteria there are in the gut, the more health problems you are likely to experience. The converse may also be true.

It can take something to act as a trigger - perhaps a virus, or a medication, an accident, an operation, anything, but something that upsets the flora, yes, undoubtedly even vaccines - When you are exposed to virii normally, there may be just a few, but a vaccine exposes you to a greater amount that may overwhelm the immune system, especially with things like the MMR where children are exposed to several different virii in one fell swoop (my 4 year-old grandson was given 7 - yes seven! at his last visit!).

I was bottle-fed as a child. I also had a lot of the seemingly typical (of gut dysbiosis) colds, coughs and chest infections as a child. I missed a lot of school and was given anti-biotics like sweeties. My dysbiosis started at a very early age. I also was put on the Pill when I was 16 to try and regulate my very irregular and heavy periods and it was about that time that I developed the extreme fatigue that has dogged me all my life. Maybe the Pill was just the 'last straw'. I have had a problem with Candida for years and have tried, unsuccessfully, to ignore it, so that was a pretty obvious clue that my gut wasn't right even years ago.

Perhaps, in some cases, the gut imbalance kept at a fairly low level for some years until it was radically upset by something. It can take a while for the imbalance to 'get out of hand', which may explain why some don't develop 'Celiac' until a later stage. There are some who, although they apparently carry the 'Celiac' gene markers, never actually develop the disease. Perhaps that is because they never end up with gut dysbiosis so radical that gluten intolerance becomes a problem. So little is known about genes that who knows whether they even have that right anyway!

I have to say that I have been wondering all along whether Celiac and 'non Celiac' gluten intolerance aren't actually the same thing - it could all have gut dysbiosis behind it! Perhaps it is the type of bacteria, or quantity of it that determines whether you carry antibodies and how bad the overgrowth has become before gut damage becomes evident. Because it is something that is completely ignored or dismissed then dysbiosis would not be considered as a possible cause of either Celiac or NCGI.

Perhaps those who get better after dropping gluten are just dealing with one particular bacteria that is then controlled by the withdrawal of gluten as its food source. For others, although losing gluten may well lead to the depletion of certain bacteria, unfortunately though, that may then leave a bigger hole for other, more ambitious and aggressive bacteria to fill!

Sadly, because the Medical Profession gives little or no credence to gut flora and its role in disease, those of us who are suffering because of it are left struggling under our own steam. I am convinced that it is bacterial activity that is behind my inability to digest carbs properly and the constant 'pounding' that I get that is worse after eating any carbohydrate. I am finding that i am getting similar responses to carbs in general that i got with gluten in the form of gas and bloating. Certain bacteria produce gas as a by-product so it has to be bacteria-driven.

When my digestion collapsed back in January I dropped gluten and dairy. I had a very brief window for just 2 or 3 days, of experiencing what it was like to have energy, then just dropped right back down. I was following the SC Diet but as I started to feel a little better I dropped it and have started going backwards. I really ought to get back on the wagon as I am sure it will be the only way I will be able to beat these little beggars! For me, gluten and dairy is only a very small part of the picture.
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Ali - 50 - struggled with what I now know to be GI symptoms and poor carb digestion for at least 35 years! Diabetic type II (1997). Mother undx Celiac - lifelong diabetic Type 1 & anemic (plus 1 stillborn and 10 miscarriages after me). Father definitely very GI.

Stopped gluten & dairy, Jan 08, but still other issues so dropped most carbs and sugar and have been following the Specific Carb Diet (SCD) since March 08. Recovery slow but steady and I can now eat a much broader range of foods especially raw which are good for my digestion and boost my energy level.

Not getting better? Try the SCD - it might just change your life.........

#4 Ken70

 
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Posted 01 August 2008 - 05:14 AM

I'm going to have to completely AGREE with you.
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#5 ShayFL

 
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Posted 01 August 2008 - 05:39 AM

I agree too and that is why I have shifted my focus to my "gut". If you check out the other forum Ali....you can see what I am up to: "The Duck Quacks On...." :)
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GLUTEN FREE 4/4/08. LEGUME/SOY FREE 5/15/08. YEAST FREE. CORN FREE. GRAIN FREE. DAIRY FREE. I am eating all meats, eggs, veggies, fruits, squash, nuts and seeds. I just keep getting better every day. :)

Do not let any of the advice given here substitute for good medical care. Let this forum be a catalyst for research. Find support for any post in here before you believe it to be true. Arm yourself with knowledge. Let your doctor be your assistant. Listen to their advice, but follow your own instincts as well. Miracles are within your reach. You can heal!

#6 AliB

 
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Posted 11 August 2008 - 02:55 PM

Carrying on this topic, I reckon that is probably what 'withdrawal' is all about. There is an advert floating around on the TV here in the UK for Niquitin anti-smoking products. It shows the 'receptors' in the brain going mad when the nicotine stops. What if it isn't 'receptors' but bacteria? What if the same thing happens when we withdraw the bacterias' food source? They probably go pretty manic for a bit until they die back making us feel pretty dreadful in the meantime.

We know that when we follow an anti-Candida regime we get die-off or Herxheimer. The same must be true with other bacteria or yeasts when their food source is removed. The removal of gluten and/or dairy obviously has a radical effect on some bacteria.

Shortly after i went gluten and dairy-free, just for 2 or 3 days I got a brief burst of energy but then it went back down again. I suspect it was the bugs readjusting to the different situation. Because i was still eating carbs at the time, I was still feeding them, albeit a different source, and they soon picked back up and carried on with their debilitating of my body.

I am trying to get properly on to the SCD as I am more convinced than ever that it is the only way I am going to thrash these little rotters. Although I have not had any, i have had enough exposure to gluten to know that it is not affecting me any more, but I will need to stay away from it and stick to the SCD for at least a year before my gut will have healed properly and i will be able to eat normally.

This book I got from Amazon by Natasha Campbell-McBride - Gut and Psychology Syndrome, is fantastically enlightening. She has found within her practice that the only thing that really works is the SCD and boy does it work! Although her field is mainly mental and neurological problems like Autism, ADD, OCD, Schizophrenia, SCD also is successful with so many other health issues and diseases.

The crux of the diet is basically, if it isn't a food in its natural state, don't eat it. 'God-made' makes us well. 'Man-made' (or mucked about with) makes us sick.
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Ali - 50 - struggled with what I now know to be GI symptoms and poor carb digestion for at least 35 years! Diabetic type II (1997). Mother undx Celiac - lifelong diabetic Type 1 & anemic (plus 1 stillborn and 10 miscarriages after me). Father definitely very GI.

Stopped gluten & dairy, Jan 08, but still other issues so dropped most carbs and sugar and have been following the Specific Carb Diet (SCD) since March 08. Recovery slow but steady and I can now eat a much broader range of foods especially raw which are good for my digestion and boost my energy level.

Not getting better? Try the SCD - it might just change your life.........

#7 AliB

 
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Posted 18 August 2008 - 04:06 PM

Hi Ali

I don't know how many people are reading this thread, but I'll bet you've rung a lot of bells when you talk about healing the gut and then being able to tolerate gluten.

My question to you is this:
How does one know that gluten is tolerated?

Gut symptoms are only one sign of gluten toxicity. What about the effect on the nervous system, endocrine system, skin, and so on, that may take years to develop?

I, for one, do not plan to ever mess with gluten again, no matter how "healed" I may someday feel from the SCD.

Boy, and to think I used to worry that someday I may be stuck in a nursing home where they serve Jello for lunch.


To go back to your point on the other thread Pele, the research I have been doing has led me to be pretty confident that it is not the gluten that is the problem. After all, if gluten WAS the problem then EVERYBODY would have a problem with it.

The problem lays not with the gluten but with those of us who are intolerant. If it is not gluten that causes the toxicity then what is it? My 'theory' (and it is not just mine because I have gleaned a lot of my information from others, some of whom are trained in Medical Science) is that it is the interaction of certain bacteria with the gluten that is causing the toxicity. Get rid of the bacteria and you get rid of the toxicity.

People become Schizophrenic. They are not born with it. Why does it hit them at some point in their life? The same is true of most diseases. Perhaps even children get certain diseases because their gut flora is so bad that their immune systems just have no power. Certain of the major important bacteria are there for digestive and immune support, without them our digestion and immune system cannot function properly. Without them we have no strength to fight any internal rogues or invaders. Their toxic by-products then start to infiltrate the body causing all sorts of mayhem.

Many have found after following the SCD that their health problems have disappeared - even mental and psychological. Why? Because the toxins that were causing them have gone. If those toxins can be removed by the diet then why not the 'gluten' toxins too?

I believe that all these illnesses are just names for bacterial toxins that attack different parts of the body. That for instance, people who have Rheumatoid Arthritis carry bacteria within their bodies that produce toxins that attack the joints. That those who suffer with Chronic Fatigue carry bacteria that produce toxins that affect the brain and the liver, depleting energy. That many of these rogue bacteria damage the gut to a greater or lesser degree leading to the diagnosis of Celiac or NCGS. That some who do not develop gut damage can just as easily be affected by other bacteria in different ways. Not all bacteria affect the gut, but they can affect the brain, or the heart or any other cell or organ in the body.

My brain seems relatively 'untouched', but within my body they have affected my GI system, my spleen, my liver and my pancreas. My husband is affected in his stomach and his brain, my friend is affected in her stomach and her joints, my daughter is affected in her stomach and her brain, and my son's energy and brain is affected. We all have different combinations of bacteria within our bodies.

Perhaps those who are diagnosed as 'Celiac' have a high gluten antibody level because the predominant bacteria in their bodies is 'gluten-chomping', producing copious toxins that trigger an immune response. Perhaps others have a low antibody 'negative' response because although they may be present enough to trigger a small immune response, it is not the 'gluten-chomping' bacteria that is the predominant pathogen within their bodies. Perhaps those who apparently 'carry' the Celiac genes but do not develop the disease do so because they have good gut flora that protects them and prevents the degeneration into the 'disease.

A person who is an Alcoholic has a similar problem to one who is carbohydrate intolerant. In order to control the problem they have to completely avoid the alcohol. Why? Because the ingestion triggers off the craving. I have a similar problem with carbohydrates. A few years ago I did the Atkins diet. It was good for me - I lost weight and gained energy. But I listened to the doubting Thomases and started to re-introduce the carbs. It was fatal. The craving overtook me and I could no longer control it. I was a Carboholic.

Although I had removed the trigger and the bacteria had settled down, I had not replaced them with 'good' bacteria to keep them under control so as soon as I ate the carbs, the bacteria woke up, started multiplying and I was 'hooked' all over again. That is why most people who diet cannot keep the weight off. As soon as they start to eat 'normally', the cycle starts all over again.

I suspect the reason that gluten becomes a problem is not gluten itself, but the fact that it is eaten almost continuously. If we were to relegate it to an occasional part of our diet it would not be a problem, and no-one would be Celiac, but it is in the vast majority of foods we eat. If we consume the same food day in and day out, the bacteria that is attracted to this food starts to proliferate. The same with alcohol. People who imbibe only occasionally do not become alcoholic. Alcoholism is triggered by a regular consumption.

Eventually the damage to the gut caused by the bacteria prevents 'Celiacs' from being able to tolerate gluten any more and often other foods too, leading to the Celiac diagnosis. It is before that point that the bacterial activity and toxicity causes the most damage leading to the many and varied health issues. I believe that 'Celiac', like many other 'diseases' is actually a symptom, not a cause.

Like anything - sort out the cause and the symptom goes away.
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Ali - 50 - struggled with what I now know to be GI symptoms and poor carb digestion for at least 35 years! Diabetic type II (1997). Mother undx Celiac - lifelong diabetic Type 1 & anemic (plus 1 stillborn and 10 miscarriages after me). Father definitely very GI.

Stopped gluten & dairy, Jan 08, but still other issues so dropped most carbs and sugar and have been following the Specific Carb Diet (SCD) since March 08. Recovery slow but steady and I can now eat a much broader range of foods especially raw which are good for my digestion and boost my energy level.

Not getting better? Try the SCD - it might just change your life.........

#8 tom

 
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Posted 18 August 2008 - 05:52 PM

I believe that 'Celiac', like many other 'diseases' is actually a symptom, not a cause.

Like anything - sort out the cause and the symptom goes away.

:huh: :huh: :huh:
:huh: :huh:
:huh:
:huh: :huh:
:huh: :huh: :huh:

So, I don't have a hereditary auto-immune disease? I have a bacteria problem?

Is this bacteria problem hereditary somehow too?

Is all the research done by actual research scientists just made up?
They recently found the mechanism that causes the excess zonulin in a celiac.

Celiac IS an auto-immune disease, not a "symptom", or some sort of gluten-intolerance "syndrome".


Believe me, I'm all FOR questioning the status quo - it's how science moves forward - but this .. . ..uhhh . .. ..this .. . I don't know what to say ...
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>>>>>>> tom <<<<<<<

Celiac 1st diagnosed as a toddler, in the 60s. Docs then, between bloodletting & leech-tending, said "he'll grow out of it" & I was back on gluten & mostly fine for 30yrs.

Gluten-free since 12-03
Dairy-free since 10-04
Soy-free since 5-07

#9 Jesse E

 
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Posted 18 August 2008 - 06:41 PM

I agree with you somewhat, but I think you have the order of things a bit mixed up.

It's probably more like this:

1. Someone has celiac genes.

2. Something happens to their gut, most likely bacterial overgrowth and celiac is activated.

3. Celiac causes more bacterial overgrowth due to malabsorption - more food for the bacteria.

The digestion problems in celiac are not caused solely by gluten - it is the combination of gluten + bacterial overgrowth that is always going to be present due to malabsorption. But if you don't treat both, you're still going to have issues. Some people just have to remove the gluten and their bacteria problem is gone. Some people will have bacteria that will stick around even after malabsorption issues are gone from gluten removal, so they'll have to take antibiotics to deal with the leftover bacteria.
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#10 lovegrov

 
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Posted 19 August 2008 - 12:14 PM

I agree that it's all fine and good to explore various options, but I'd be very careful about telling people there's no such thing as celiac disease or that gluten isn't the problem. Reading stuff on the Internet, some of which is no doubt bogus (this is true in any subject), is a far cry from studying it scientifically.

richard
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#11 Fiddle-Faddle

 
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Posted 19 August 2008 - 04:06 PM

I think that what AliB found might be true for a subset of those with celiac-type symptoms.

We do know that some of the people on this board have or have had celiac symptoms that were directly traced to Lyme Disease, and they insist that they can now eat gluten without problems (or will be able to when their Lyme is gone).

I have also read that the husband of the author of www dot lunchinabox dot net was originally diagnosed with celiac disease, but after 9 months of a gluten-free diet and NO improvement in symptoms, they did more testing (including genetic testing, and found that he had none of the celiac-predisposing genes), and, after still more testing, concluded that he had a bacterial infection of the gut, treated it, and he is now eating normally with no problems whatsoever.

It all makes for very interesting "food for thought!" (With apologies for the pun.)
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#12 AliB

 
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Posted 19 August 2008 - 04:31 PM

I'm not 'telling' anyone what it is - merely what I believe it is...........

Yes the bacteria is just as likely to be 'inherited' as anything else. Family members live in close proximity to each other. Mothers breast-feed babies. Babies are apparently born with a sterile gut. Within days their gut has started to be populated with flora. Where does it come from? If breast-fed, it has to come from the mother, where bottle-fed, from the substitute feed. Breast-fed babies have a different flora to bottle-fed.

But even when breast-fed, if the mother's flora is out of balance, she will not have the right combination of flora to pass on to her child. If she carries pathogenic flora, they too can pass to the baby.

Family members share toilets, baths, towels, flannels, you name it, the flora gets shared around.

Something has to trigger the Celiac. It's a chicken and egg situation. Does the celiac trigger the bacterial overgrowth, or does the bacterial overgrowth trigger the celiac? I know I had the bacterial overgrowth long before I became diabetic and I would be pretty convinced that it was bacterial action that triggered that. I have had stomach problems as far back as I can remember but until now, never knew why.

Why do so many 'Celiacs' have stomach problems? You can guarantee their stomach problems started way before they were ever diagnosed with Celiac. The stomach problems have to be caused by something. Why not bacteria? It is only fairly recently that Helicobacter was discovered and found to be responsible for a lot of stomach problems. Although it was poo-pooed at the time, no-one now can deny its existence.

What is Helicobacter? A bacteria. There are thousands, if not millions of different bacteria. Helicobacter is just but a tiny member of that community. What others are in there that shouldn't be, creating havoc with our bodies? We know so little about so few of them, no-one knows. This 'theory' may just appear to be a theory, but it is an extremely logical one and holds a great deal of lateral thinking behind it.

Every infection within the bodily environs is connected to bacteria. Pus is the body's way of fighting infection and attempting to destroy the bacteria. Bacteria can affect any part of the body. The immune system is there to protect us from the pathogens. If our Immune System is compromised though, the body cannot fight these invaders effectively and disease results. Why would the Immune System be compromised in the first place? Gut flora, like Lactobacillus and Bifidobacteria are there for digestive and immune support. If they are depleted then the immune system becomes vulnerable.

Why would they become depleted? The wide use of medicines like anti-biotics and common over-the-counter painkillers destroy and disrupt the balance. Anti-biotics may kill some of the bad bacteria but some are resistant and survive. The drugs are also unfortunately very effective at destroying the beneficial bacteria and the gut is then left wide open for the pathogenic survivors to take over. Our high-carb, high-sugar diet feeds these little beggars and we're in the soup.......

Anti-biotics are sometimes a necessary evil, particularly where a person's immune system has no strength to fight any invaders, but Medical Science has determined that these drugs should not be given out willy-nilly like they were up till quite recently, as they have finally twigged that bacteria becomes resistant to them! Hence the rise in MRSA, C.Diff, E.Coli, etc. Once you take even one course, they completely and radically alter the gut flora, and never for the good. People who take them very often find that they go down with yet another illness within a short period and probably end up having to take more of the things because their immune system is now not able to protect them effectively.

I was taken to the doctor as a child, probably for a sniffle and was given them by the ever-so-kind Doctor. I then ended up catching everything going, being dished the rotten things like sweeties for years and missing a huge chunk of my schooling. By the time I was 15 my immune system was shot to pieces and I have been sickly and struggling ever since.

What is auto-immune? I have an 'auto-immune' disease. But what triggered it? What triggers any 'auto-immune' disease? What causes the body to turn on itself? As a diabetic, what if certain bacteria within my Pancreas are causing my immune system to attack it in an attempt to destroy the pathogens? What if the same scenario is being played out in any other 'auto-immune' disease in any other part of the body?

As for the Zonulin thing. So researchers have found elevated Zonulin in Celiacs. What is causing it to elevate? Something is triggering it. Just saying that it is elevated in Celiacs is not enough. Why? Perhaps the body elevates it in an attempt to try and protect itself from pathogens??? Everything has a cause and effect. Nothing happens without good reason. I for one would not be content with that explanation. Why? Why? Why?

I am Diabetic. Why? 'No-one knows'. Not good enough an explanation.
My Mother was Diabetic and probably Celiac. Why? 'No-one knows'. Definitely not good enough.
Why do I get sick but Joe Bloggs down the street doesn't? 'No-one knows'. Not darn good enough.

Sorry, but I am not one of those people who just accepts what I am told. Especially when it doesn't make sense.
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Ali - 50 - struggled with what I now know to be GI symptoms and poor carb digestion for at least 35 years! Diabetic type II (1997). Mother undx Celiac - lifelong diabetic Type 1 & anemic (plus 1 stillborn and 10 miscarriages after me). Father definitely very GI.

Stopped gluten & dairy, Jan 08, but still other issues so dropped most carbs and sugar and have been following the Specific Carb Diet (SCD) since March 08. Recovery slow but steady and I can now eat a much broader range of foods especially raw which are good for my digestion and boost my energy level.

Not getting better? Try the SCD - it might just change your life.........

#13 AliB

 
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Posted 19 August 2008 - 04:48 PM

Quote from University of Maryland, on Zonulin....

"Zonulin works like the traffic conductor or the gatekeeper of our body's tissues," says lead author Alessio Fasano, M.D., professor of pediatrics and physiology at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, and director of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition at the University of Maryland Hospital for Children. "Our largest gateway is the intestine with its billions of cells. Zonulin opens the spaces between cells allowing some substances to pass through while keeping harmful bacteria and toxins out," explains Dr. Fasano.


.....maybe, just perhaps, it is elevated because it is trying to keep harmful bacteria and toxins out.........????
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Ali - 50 - struggled with what I now know to be GI symptoms and poor carb digestion for at least 35 years! Diabetic type II (1997). Mother undx Celiac - lifelong diabetic Type 1 & anemic (plus 1 stillborn and 10 miscarriages after me). Father definitely very GI.

Stopped gluten & dairy, Jan 08, but still other issues so dropped most carbs and sugar and have been following the Specific Carb Diet (SCD) since March 08. Recovery slow but steady and I can now eat a much broader range of foods especially raw which are good for my digestion and boost my energy level.

Not getting better? Try the SCD - it might just change your life.........

#14 lovegrov

 
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Posted 19 August 2008 - 05:04 PM

While might not be (although I have my doubts what to believe about what you think you have found, it sure as heck reads that way. The very best of any celiac research shows it exists and that gluten is the problem.

richard
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#15 Rachel--24

 
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Posted 19 August 2008 - 05:05 PM

.....maybe, just perhaps, it is elevated because it is trying to keep harmful bacteria and toxins out.........????


Excess zonulin keeps the "gates" open. Its causes the intestinal lining to become more permeable. This does not help to keep things out.....it allows undigested food, bacteria, toxins, etc. to enter the bloodstream.
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Rachel




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