Gut Imbalance And Dysbiosis Behind Everything.

[holdthegluten]

Yes, I have major problems with sulfites (pretty much all processed foods), all high sulfur foods as well as any supplements containing cysteine, glutathione or anything else high in sulfur.

I have a major block. You might have the same problem but reactions depend on how impaired the enzyme is. I wouldnt be able to tolerate even a small amount of wine.

You had the same indicator of glutathione deficiency so you may be having some problems with the same pathway (hence the food/wine reactions)....but you might not be as sensitive as I am.

I think I'd investigate the sulfites first....as far as a cause for the reaction you experienced.

Sulfite sensitivity indicates impaired function of the sulfite oxidase enzyme....which normally converts the sulfites into sulfate. If the enzyme is down...the sulfites accumulate and cause reactions. The symptoms may be similar to an allergic reaction....but its actually a metabolic issue and not an allergy. Sulfites are toxic....so if the body isnt breaking them down efficiently.....they will make you feel pretty sick.

I will be starting treatment for my pathway problems soon....so I'll keep you informed as to what we're doing for it.

What is the treatment that you have started? Im guessing something to open up the pathway. Why does the pathway get blocked?

[Rachel--24]

What is the treatment that you have started? Im guessing something to open up the pathway. Why does the pathway get blocked?

I havent started any treatment yet because I've had additional testing (awaiting results) and have an appt. to see another Dr. before we start anything. I've already had alot of testing done but this is a new doctor that I'm seeing and he wants to be sure nothing is overlooked.

Yes, he wants to start treatment to open up the pathway but right now we dont know how many defects or "blocks" I have in the pathway.

This is the reason for the additional testing. I may also have some genetic testing done (not sure on that yet).

Different things can cause blocks in the pathway. Usually there is some genetic weakness there to begin with. Any weaknesses can make a person more susceptible to toxicity and/or infection.

Also nutritional deficiencies can weaken the function of certain enzymes.

Heavy metals like mercury and lead can totally inhibit the enzymes.

I may have had some vulnerabilities but I was not affected by them and was in good health until I had a couple fillings drilled out unsafely. I think every doctor has agreed that I was already "on the edge" prior to that "event".....but thats basically what pushed me over.

I had no intolerances or sensitivities (of any kind) prior to that.

Sometimes when a person is susceptible it takes a long time for the toxicity to build up (symptoms appear gradually)...and in other cases one exposure can do some pretty major damage (which is the way it happened for me).

Things that can inhibit your protective Sulfite Oxidase enzyme

Things that can impair the protective sulfite oxidase are as follows:

Heavy metal molecules such as lead and mercury, Sulfa-drugs (e.g. a class of drugs within the sulfa group that can impair pterin synthesis, such as asthmatic inhalants and many antibiotics), molybdenum deficiency, proto-IX-porphyria (enzyme that makes blood inhibited), inherited genetic damage encoding of the SO-enzyme, severe B12-vitamin deficiency, and arrays of So2/SO3-group containing drugs including DMPS (an Rx chelation drug).

I think in my case there are other weaknesses in the methylation cycle/sulfation pathway. I dont think that is the only block in my cycle....but its definately a big one.

[holdthegluten]

I havent started any treatment yet because I've had additional testing (awaiting results) and have an appt. to see another Dr. before we start anything. I've already had alot of testing done but this is a new doctor that I'm seeing and he wants to be sure nothing is overlooked.

Yes, he wants to start treatment to open up the pathway but right now we dont know how many defects or "blocks" I have in the pathway.

This is the reason for the additional testing. I may also have some genetic testing done (not sure on that yet).

Different things can cause blocks in the pathway. Usually there is some genetic weakness there to begin with. Any weaknesses can make a person more susceptible to toxicity and/or infection.

Also nutritional deficiencies can weaken the function of certain enzymes.

Heavy metals like mercury and lead can totally inhibit the enzymes.

I may have had some vulnerabilities but I was not affected by them and was in good health until I had a couple fillings drilled out unsafely. I think every doctor has agreed that I was already "on the edge" prior to that "event".....but thats basically what pushed me over.

I had no intolerances or sensitivities (of any kind) prior to that.

Sometimes when a person is susceptible it takes a long time for the toxicity to build up (symptoms appear gradually)...and in other cases one exposure can do some pretty major damage (which is the way it happened for me).

I think in my case there are other weaknesses in the methylation cycle/sulfation pathway. I dont think that is the only block in my cycle....but its definately a big one.

Have you looked up the supplement Molybdenum............It sounds kind of interesting?

[Rachel--24]

Have you looked up the supplement Molybdenum............It sounds kind of interesting?

Yeah...I've known about the sulfite problem for a long time now and molybdenum is the cofactor for the sulfite oxidase enzyme (as well as two other important enzymes).

Copper is an antagonist for molybdenum....so too much copper can cause molybdenum deficiency. I have elevated copper as well.

I've supplemented molybdenum but never felt any different with it. Some people can increase their intolerance for sulfites by supplementing the molybdenum. Its something you can try to see if it helps you.

I think usually there are other complicating factors involved. The doctor thinks that my CBS is impaired and that would be the most significant problem with regards to the function of the pathway. CBS is an enzyme which is at the beginning of the transsulferation pathway.

[purple]

I am so glad we have such intelligent people on here. Thank you all!!!

[AliB]

Thanks for your compliment - at the end of the day we are all learning - and we are all trying to make sense of our health issues.

For many of us there is no one out there fighting our corner so we have to figure it out for ourselves. Whilst we all suffer with different and varied issues, somewhere along the line we can but just hope that someone else has found a way to restore their health, that may also be of benefit to us.

If only for us it was as simple as just avoiding gluten........................

Still, if that was the case and we all got better simply by doing that, then there would be little need for further research or analysis or questioning outside of the 'Celiac' threshhold. 'Celiac' would be as straightforward as most other diseases, there would be a defined set of symptoms and those 'picked up' by the Medical Profession would be in the majority, not the minority.

[AliB]

I have just posted this on the SCD thread but feel that it fits this thread just as importantly.

Very, very interesting little snippet I cut out of the paper today. Apparently there has been some research to show that women who take probiotics during pregnancy and who give them to their babies, halve the risk of their babies getting eczema.

Even more interesting is that the research found that whilst Lactobacillus Rhamnosus worked well, bifidobacterium did nothing at all!

Doesn't that back up Elaine's research where she feels that we are better avoiding bifidus - yet so many so-called probiotics are full of the stuff! The last paragraph is very clear that many of the commercial 'probiotic' yogurts and drinks are a total waste of money and actually can be extremely counter-productive.

"Experts have warned that many probiotics do not contain the right sort of bacteria in the right quantities and often contain large amounts of sugar". Exactly.

I believe that more and more of this will come out as time goes on and the nutrient starved high-carb, high-sugar Western diet fuelled 'rogue' bacteria and gut dysbiosis 'theory' will, in the end, be proved as a large, if not the largest factor in the epidemic of 'Western' diseases.

As so little at present is known about this field, we are pretty much floundering in the dark, but research like this can be helpful in some small way.

I have just finished Michael Pollan's book 'In defense of food' which truly is an eye-opener and just wish I had a field in which to grow my own fruit and veg.

[Ken70]

Any links on what probiotics to take would be helpful. I keep trying different ones. Some work and some don't.

Rachel has commented multiple times about how gut dysbiosis develops. She thinks there are links to heavy metal toxcicity and lyme disease to name two. Over the weekend I watched a National Geographic special on stress. Guess what? I think we might have to move stress right to the from of the list as one of the probable causes for gut dysibiosis.

The theory is that stress exists to keep us alive under short term life or death situations. It works by shutting down everything in our bodies accept our vital functions (mostly delivering energy to our cells for movement) - the immune system being one of the systems shut down. In today's world chronic stress, as a result of our "position" in life according to the special, doesn't go away. It shuts down our immune systems to subsistance levels and bingo - the little critters grow uninhibited by our immune system.

For the record gut dysbiosis was not discussed int he special but I am making the connection. They did argue that certain kinds of body fat were caused by this chronic stress though.

[Rachel--24]

Stress is a major factor in chronic illness.....and definately up there at the top of the list. I dont know anyone with any type of chronic illness in which stress didnt play a role (to some extent).

The thing is that when we are under stress and especially when the stress is chronic....the immune system is suppressed. Also, stress increases the toxicity in the body.

We are all exposed to pathogens, toxins, heavy metals, a large percentage of the population has been exposed to Lyme, polution, chemicals....and the list goes on.

Anytime that we're under stress our bodies have a difficult time dealing with these things....and they create an even heavier burden on the immune system. The immune system doesnt typically become overwhelmed by one thing.....its a combination of things...including both emotional and physical stressors.

Most people that I know of with chronic illness dont just have dysbiosis, or just have lyme, or just have heavy metals. The body is *one*.....so it doesnt handle these things as seperate issues....they all come together and they can all play a role.

Many people do not have symtpoms from Lyme....until they've been under heavy stress and for long periods of time. Its not just the gut bugs that gain a foothold when we are burdened by stress. The whole body is affected. Also, detoxification is slowed down while we are under heavy stress....this allows heavy metals and other toxins to accumulate. The presence of toxins furthur weakens the immune system....thus making us more susceptible to infection (of all kinds).

What you are saying is absolutely true...but when the immune sytsem is compromised its not only the gut ecology that is thrown out of balance....toxins can accumulate in any area of the body....and these areas of the body become weaker and this is where pathogens set up housekeeping.

Overtime more and more problems can develop....and its not limited to the gut....and it doesnt necessarily start in the gut (although it often does).

Anything which weakens the immune system can be a cause for dysbiosis. Most of the time its several things contributing...not just one thing. If the immune system is weakened as a result of chronic stress.....we become more susceptible to *everything*. If the immune system is weakened by mercury....we become more susceptible to *everything*. If the immune system is weakened by Lyme....we become more susceptible to *everything*. If the immune system is weakened by chronic mold exposure.....we become more susceptible to everything.....and on and on.

This is why people with chronic illness (including dysbiosis) are found to have several issues (especially the ones I just listed).....because overtime these things start to pile up.

We only become sick when the scales begin to tip....because we are no longer "in balance". This happens when the toxic load becomes too great and when the immune system is no longer able to keep pathogens in check.

If you're dealing with chronic gut infections....then undoubtedly there are other issues contributing.....otherwise the situation wouldn't be chronic. It would be easily remedied with antifungals, diet, antibiotics, antiparasitics, etc. When the problem remains chronic its because the immune system remains burdened (usually by the other factors).

There are already many stressors that the immune system is dealing with on a daily basis...if you add chronic stress to that pile...it could be the straw that broke the camels back. Even if stress starts the cascade.....in the end things have piled up.

How Do We Accumulate Toxins?

There are two types of toxins: exogenous and endogenous toxins.

Exogenous toxins come from our environment. Daily we are exposed to chemicals from our air, water and food. Examples include: mercury, aluminum from toothpaste and deodorant, lead from smog, petrochemicals from plastic bottles, chlorine and fluoride.

Endogenous toxins are produced by our body as a result of imbalances in our body's ability to rid itself of the byproducts of metabolism from the water, food, and drugs we ingest. Toxins also accumulate in the body as a result of parasitic, bacterial and viral invasions. An example of metabolic imbalance is the build up of too much uric acid causing kidney stones.

An overlooked source of toxic accumulation results from electromagnetic exposure from cell phones, computers, TVs, microwaves and dental work. Stress also throws the body's metabolism out of balance causing an overproduction of stress hormones that need to be broken down and eliminated by the body. Continual stress from physical, mental or emotional sources overburdens our excretion systems and allows for the gradual build up of toxins in our organs. The effects are cumulative on our bodies.

[Ken70]

What you are saying is absolutely true...but when the immune system is compromised its not only the gut ecology that is thrown out of balance....toxins can accumulate in any area of the body....and these areas of the body become weaker and this is where pathogens set up housekeeping.

Well said as usual. I've been trying to figure out how and why I got out of balance so that it doesn't happen again. For me I haven't found toxic overload to be the problem although I recognize it could be at any time. It was and still is gut dysbiosis. Having listened to you and others I have researched many of the possibilities but I had never considered stress as a factor. Oddly enough I believed that my stress was caused by GD and that if I fixed that the stress would go away. I guess I worked on both at the same time and sure enough I'm considerably better.

I think you are correct when you argue that we are all exposed to these factors but a healthy body can handle them most of the time. I'm leaning towards the theory for myself that all of the stress of fatherhood and running my own business etc. combined with lack of sunshine, a totally poor diet, a bit of gluten intolerance and exposure to fungus and or bacteria and I ended up with chronic fatigue, brain fog, anxiety and bowel issues.

I am mindful of the fact that I could be wrong and I could have something else going on. That's why I keep checking in here as often as I can to stay current. Thanks. Ken

[AliB]

The short answer Ken is that I don't know which bacteria is best and I am not sure that anyone does. Elaine Gottschall did say that it is better to confine to Lactobacillus types in general and avoid Bifidus strains. She did seem to do some research on it.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that some seem to work for you better than others. At the the end of the day we are all different and my gut dysbiosis will undoubtedly be totally different to yours.

The important thing is to make sure we try and get enough of the 'good' bacteria to give the gut back some kind of protection and to boost the immune system. Other things can help such as making sure we have enough zinc in our diet and taking herbal boosters like vitamin C, and short courses of Echinacea, etc. The more support we can give our immune systems the better.

I don't know about stress being a factor in my case. Mine all kicked off (well, in the way of manifestive symptoms) when I was about 16 ( unless the teenage years and school, etc. can be considered as stressful in themselves) and I was not aware of being particularly stressed up to then - in fact I have always been pretty laid-back and rarely worry about things.

My family life was happy and secure, yet I became 'tired' pretty much overnight it seemed and never really regained the energy apart from 2 brief episodes when I went low-carb. I am not aware of my childhood being particularly problematic although I apparently used to get a lot of colds and chest infections when little. If my Mum's flora was poor then she would not have had anything decent to pass to me. My Dad also suffered with digestive issues and I am sure that his was due to bacterial imbalance.

I regularly have suffered with backache and my stomach would often get so weak I would feel like just laying down wherever I was - even in the street! I never did and always managed to struggle through it - thinking about it I now realise that most of my life I have been battling against some kind of Chronic Fatigue although I wasn't as bad as others. I always thought it was to do with my weight, but now know that it has always been my digestion that was the problem.

Although a slim child, the weight went on when I hit puberty and has been an issue ever since as has latterly the diabetes, because my digestion has never worked properly. It's weird. Some people's gut dysbiosis seems to encourage weight gain, and others, weight loss. Probably gluten and carbs in general have always been an issue for me - undoubtedly due to gut damage and a lack of certain enzymes, hence the benefit of the low carb diets. How I wish I had not listened to all those doubting thomases and stayed on the diet that was so good for me. Now my digestion has deteriorated to the point that even low-carb does not work very well.

Sigh.

[Ken70]

The short answer Ken is that I don't know which bacteria is best and I am not sure that anyone does. Elaine Gottschall did say that it is better to confine to Lactobacillus types in general and avoid Bifidus strains. She did seem to do some research on it.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that some seem to work for you better than others. At the the end of the day we are all different and my gut dysbiosis will undoubtedly be totally different to yours.

The important thing is to make sure we try and get enough of the 'good' bacteria to give the gut back some kind of protection and to boost the immune system. Other things can help such as making sure we have enough zinc in our diet and taking herbal boosters like vitamin C, and short courses of Echinacea, etc. The more support we can give our immune systems the better.

I was thinking of trying the Mercola brand. Has anyone tried his? I may also get his Krill Oil but I am suspicious of anyone who dispenses advice and sells products.

[aprilh]

I was thinking of trying the Mercola brand. Has anyone tried his? I may also get his Krill Oil but I am suspicious of anyone who dispenses advice and sells products.

Ken70,

I do not like the probioticis that he sells. I do like the krill oil and have been taking it. He has a multi vitamin type supplement that looked pretty good. Had all sorts of nutrients that are good for keeping the detox pathways moving - which I need.

Lately, I have been doing Kirkman's acidophilus and have noticed a huge improvement since taking it. I also make yogurt with it.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

I think another factor in our society is the use of anti-perspirants (which many people call deodorant, for some reason). That blocks one of the body's ways of getting rid of toxins.

Have you ever noticed that in times of significant stress, your sweat smells quite different? But if you plug up your sweat glands (with aluminum, no less!), your body has to find another way--if even possible--of getting those toxins out. And those sweat glands are VERY close to the lymph nodes.

[Rachel--24]

I think another factor in our society is the use of anti-perspirants (which many people call deodorant, for some reason). That blocks one of the body's ways of getting rid of toxins.

Have you ever noticed that in times of significant stress, your sweat smells quite different? But if you plug up your sweat glands (with aluminum, no less!), your body has to find another way--if even possible--of getting those toxins out. And those sweat glands are VERY close to the lymph nodes.

I totally agree Fiddle Faddle.

I havent used any of the store bought antiperspirants/deodarants for a long time now....not even the ones that are aluminum-free.

I actually use just plain ol baking soda. Its not blocking my sweat glands....but it totally controls odor. Works better than anything I've ever used...and it costs way less.

[AliB]

I totally agree Fiddle Faddle.

I havent used any of the store bought antiperspirants/deodarants for a long time now....not even the ones that are aluminum-free.

I actually use just plain ol baking soda. Its not blocking my sweat glands....but it totally controls odor. Works better than anything I've ever used...and it costs way less.

How do you use it Rachel? Does it not add extra salt to the body?

For some years I have been using crystals. They work really well and although a little more expensive than deodorant last for ages, so work out considerably cheaper than the chemical stuff. The one I use currently was bought over 5 years ago and I still probably have another 2 or 3 years worth in it. I think it cost me about

[Rachel--24]

How do you use it Rachel? Does it not add extra salt to the body?

For some years I have been using crystals. They work really well and although a little more expensive than deodorant last for ages, so work out considerably cheaper than the chemical stuff. The one I use currently was bought over 5 years ago and I still probably have another 2 or 3 years worth in it. I think it cost me about

[Ken70]

The first detox I did highly recommended not using deodorant so I went without for a time. Oddly enough I didn't need any when I was strictly following the diet. Now that I am nowhere near as strict I need the deodorant again. Maybe I will drop it again as I am getting back on a strict diet.....

[lizard00]

What a weird topic.

My husband and I were actually just talking about this the other day. I generally don't use deodorant, haven't used an antiperspirant in ages. I read somewhere and totally agree that if your body is not toxic, deodorant is not necessary. I do notice a difference when I don't eat as well as usual. The only time I smell anything is when I take something like fenugreek for my allergies. Interesting how when the standard diet took a turn for the worse, we were made to believe that deodorants and antiperspirants were just a standard part of personal care.

It's funny, a few years back, my gramma told me she didn't use antiperspirant because of the chemical affects on the body. I thought she was crazy... who would've thought I would've turned out exactly like her. :lol:

[Rachel--24]

What a weird topic.

LOL...somehow we went from the effects of dysbiosis.....to the effects of antiperspirants.

I read somewhere and totally agree that if your body is not toxic, deodorant is not necessary. I do notice a difference when I don't eat as well as usual.

I agree with this too. In the months preceding my illness I was in more need of deodorant than ever before. I thought it was odd but during that time I still felt healthy. Obviously, my body was becoming more toxic and the increased body odor was a symptom of that. Eventually I did get sick....and since then I have not been able to go without using some sort of "deodorant".

The foods which increase my toxicity will also increase my body odor. I have a really restricted diet, mostly organic...my diet, along with the baking soda keeps things under control.

[purple]

I totally agree Fiddle Faddle.

I havent used any of the store bought antiperspirants/deodarants for a long time now....not even the ones that are aluminum-free.

I actually use just plain ol baking soda. Its not blocking my sweat glands....but it totally controls odor. Works better than anything I've ever used...and it costs way less.

I got my mom to use baking soda, she's 72. I sometimes use coconut oil just so I don't "stick" together.

[AliB]

LOL...somehow we went from the effects of dysbiosis.....to the effects of antiperspirants.

I'm not sure they aren't actually connected - after all bacteria lives everywhere on the body. Whilst the smell can be down to certain foods, like garlic for instance, it can also be down to bacteria.

If we are eating foods that the bacteria react to then they also will give off 'whiffs'. Those 'eggy' BB's? Bacteria. Methane? Bacteria. Poop? Bacteria. Halitosis? Bacteria. Can't get away from it..........

The more carbs and sweet stuff we consume - BO heaven..........

4 months on the SCD and my food choices are growing. I still allow 'bad' foods to creep in here and there but I am getting better, albeit slowly. I WILL beat these little beggars..................

[Rachel--24]

I'm not sure they aren't actually connected - after all bacteria lives everywhere on the body. Whilst the smell can be down to certain foods, like garlic for instance, it can also be down to bacteria.

For sure bacteria can produce some nasty toxins.

In my case its more of an issue with impaired detoxification......being exposed to chemicals can cause me to sweat...same with most foods. If my body cant process these things efficiently I end up detoxing more heavily under the arms....it never fails.

I've had numerous tests for bacteria....including the metabolites produced by bad gut bacteria. So far no evidence of a major problem with this.....although I have had some yeast issues which have improved with diet changes.

[Matilda]

Just wanted to chime in on the under-arm baking soda. I tried it after reading Rachel's recommendation. It works! I also have Arm and Hammer Cat litter deodorizing powder (orange scented) in my bathroom and I'm very tempted to try that too!

Matilda

[AliB]

Just wanted to chime in on the under-arm baking soda. I tried it after reading Rachel's recommendation. It works! I also have Arm and Hammer Cat litter deodorizing powder (orange scented) in my bathroom and I'm very tempted to try that too!

Matilda