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Glutathione


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#1 sugarsue

 
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Posted 10 October 2008 - 05:26 PM

Rachel and others... I was reading a post from a month or so ago about glutathione and sulfites. Can you tell me a little more? My dd (age 6) has been taking glutathione and I believe it's giving her awful diarrhea. The docs say it should not be doing that but I'll know within a day or two because I've decided to stop it. She's on a pretty high dose of glutathione cream in emu oil and probably something else but I don't have an entire ingredience list.

It has me confused about her gluten intollerance and how that all fits in. I'm curious to learn more about sulfite sensitivity and what the connection is with glutathione so I can try to figure out this issue she's having. The other post was very good but I'm hoping someone will have more information related to the glutathione.

She has high citric acid which is one reason why she's on the glutathione. Without it, she was not absorbing many of her supplements (vitamins, etc,). But that was before going gluten free. Maybe she does not need it now.

Thanks!
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Susan
LYME diagnosed 11/2010, allergic to wheat, Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, allergic to all grasses, most trees, dust
Mom to 9 year old dd, lyme, diagnosed 11/2011, highly gluten intolerant, epilepsy w/ generalized seizures, mitocondrial markers, malabsorption, recurring candida - Gluten-free Casein-free since 9/16/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09, seizure free since going gluten-free!
and 10 yr old dd, Lyme diagnosed 11/2011, severe dust allergy, allergic to most trees/grasses/weeds. Positive gluten intolerance testing. Gluten Free since 12/09/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09

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#2 Rachel--24

 
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Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:54 PM

Rachel and others... I was reading a post from a month or so ago about glutathione and sulfites. Can you tell me a little more? My dd (age 6) has been taking glutathione and I believe it's giving her awful diarrhea. The docs say it should not be doing that but I'll know within a day or two because I've decided to stop it. She's on a pretty high dose of glutathione cream in emu oil and probably something else but I don't have an entire ingredience list.

It has me confused about her gluten intollerance and how that all fits in. I'm curious to learn more about sulfite sensitivity and what the connection is with glutathione so I can try to figure out this issue she's having. The other post was very good but I'm hoping someone will have more information related to the glutathione.

She has high citric acid which is one reason why she's on the glutathione. Without it, she was not absorbing many of her supplements (vitamins, etc,). But that was before going gluten free. Maybe she does not need it now.

Thanks!


Did your dd have organic acid testing....is that how you found that she had elevated citric acid?

If I was posting something about negative reactions to glutathione it may have had something to do with sulfur metabolism.....not just sulfite sensitivity but a problem with all sulfur due to enzyme deficiency and/or faulty transsulfuration.

Do you know whether or not she has problems with sulfites or sulfur containing foods?

Sulfites and sulfur are two different types of compounds. Sulfites are chemical preservatives and sulfur is naturally occuring in foods such as garlic, onions, egg yolks, etc. Sulfur is an essential element that is found in two amino acids. It is necessary in order for the body to manufacture glutathione.

Does she have problems with sulfites (preservatives) or all sulfur (including the high sulfur foods)?

Some people who are in need of glutathione are also very sensitive to it and cannot tolerate it. Usually these people would also be sensitive to other supplements or foods containing sulfur. Basically they cannot tolerate glutathione itself...nor can they tolerate the amino acids that the body would normally use to build glutathione on its own.

I couldnt tolerate glutathione in any form....whether it was oral, IV or transdermal. It could be that your dd cannot metabolise it properly or possibly the dose is too high for her.

I'm not sure what type of doctors you are working with but I have some who do muscle testing or other types of "alternative" testing which has been VERY helpful as far as determining what I can or cant tolerate. If I can tolerate something...it may be only at a very small dose.

If she is dealing with glutathione depletion.....it may be that she is more susceptible to toxins and infections due to genetic vulnerabilities....as is the case with ASD's and other chronic conditions.

If thats the case other things may need to be addressed prior to trying to supplement the glutathione. Everyone is different so I cant really guess as to what would work for your dd....or why she might be having problems with glutathione (other than her body cannot metabolise it).

Does she have other symptoms other than the diarrhea? Does she have alot of stinky gas?

If she has a problem with her methylation cycle (common in autistic kids...although I dont know if this applies to your dd) then in many cases that problem has to be addressed BEFORE glutathione can be supplemented.

It is usually not possible to normalize the glutathione levels on a permanent basis by direct approaches of glutathione augmentation.

Instead, it appears that the methylation cycle block must be corrected first, to break the vicious circle that is holding down the glutathione levels. In addition to this, some patients, because of particular genetic polymorphisms, cannot tolerate supplementation with glutathione or other substances intended to help them directly to build glutathione.

One clinician estimated to me that this group amounts to about one-third of the patients.


I dont know the extent of her health issues or whether or not any of this pertains to her own symptoms from glutathione supplementation.....but these are some of the things I have learned from my own experiences.

I did not have elevated citric acid show up in testing but I did have markers for glutathione deficiency as well as indicators that there may be a block in my methylation cycle. Right now I'm waiting on the results of genetic testing with regards to glutathione and detoxification.

There are alot of possibilities as far as how the gluten intolerance fits in....was she tested for Celiac? If its not Celiac it could be due to enzyme deficiency, leaky gut, gut infections, etc.

If she is low in glutathione and if she is having problems with supplementing it.....I would assume that this is also having a negative effect on her digestion. Sulfur is essential and sulfates are necessary in maintaining the integrity of the intestinal lining. If there is a problem with sulfur metabolism.....the gut will be affected. Gluten and casein intolerance kind of go hand in hand with leaky gut.

Is she still eating dairy because that could also be the cause for her diarrhea after having gone gluten free.

EDIT:
I just saw in your signature that she is Gluten-free Casein-free for almost a month now.

If the diarrhea is/was caused by the glutathione she may not be able to tolerate it all...or you might consider starting at a very small dose and see how she does. You can increase gradually and watch for any return of diarrhea or other symptoms.
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Rachel

#3 Rachel--24

 
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Posted 11 October 2008 - 03:39 PM

I also wanted to mention that she may not be having a problem with the glutathione at all....but maybe she's reacting to something else in the cream. They have some really pure glutathione supplements that are free of additives and everything else....although I'm not sure about creams specifically.

Also, some people have bad experiences with one form of glutathione and do well with another. Some people do better with taking the amino acids that are necessary in building glutathione....rather than taking glutathione itself. Sometimes it takes trial and error to find out what works.

If she cant tolerate sulfites, high sulfur foods, precursers for glutathione (such as cysteine) and glutathione itself...then its probably a metabolic problem involving the methylation cycle and faulty sulfation.
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Rachel

#4 sugarsue

 
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Posted 11 October 2008 - 04:24 PM

Thank you Rachel, I find your posts so informative and helpful and appreciate you taking so much time to respond. I'll have to read this a few times to take it all in.... I've had trouble finding anyone who has experience with glutathione and I'm still not positive that's what she's having trouble with but it is (was) pointing to that.

She did have a celiac panel and had positive antigladian IgG with low normal Total IgA. She has improved on the gluten free diet. We went casein free before gluten free and I didn't notice too much but I also find it harder to remove all casein than gluten for some reason and I know she's had some dairy periodically.

She did have the OAT done where we found the citric acid and a host of other things. We are doing another one next week to see how she's doing along with a comprehensive stool analysis from great plains. She is rarely considered on the spectrum but our current doc does because of her many similar conditions found in ASD children and he is a Dan! doctor and we also see a neurologist since she has epilepsy. I don't think she was ever tested for glutathione deficiency and she's only had minimal allergy testing which showed up very minor allergy to egg whites and dairy. I have not noticed any reaction to any of the sulfites or sulfer but until yesterday when I ran across your post, I had not given it any thought so I will need to start to pay attention to that.

Her symptoms....
General seizures (non-convulsing, staring episodes that last approx 7 sec., hundreds a day on EEG currently medicated to supress)
Malabsorbtion and mitocondrial markers (high CK, high ammonia, low zinc, low biotin, low b vitamins, low carnitine that's all I can remember but there are a few more)
Small size (10% for height and weight)
Gas, Foul smelling Diarrhea, Stomach pain
Sensory Processing Disorder and Impulsive Behavior
Tired (weak muscle tone needs lots of rest)
Candida/Yeast problems
Can't fall asleep or wind down without Melatonin
Was addicted to wheat

She takes CoQ10, taurine, GABA, zinc, b multi, MB12 shots, calcium, biotin, essential oils, carnitine

Since she's been gluten free, she is not as tired and is participating more. She's eating better and her stomach pain is usually gone. Her gas and diarrhea will seem like it's getting better but will then get worse again. She's been glutened 2 times that I know of since we started.

If her D goes away now that she's off the glutathione, I'll do what you suggest and start it back up gradually and see what happens. She's been off for 2 days now with no change yet.

You mention the methylation cycle. I don't know what this is but I'll do some internet searches to read up.

Any further thoughts are appreciated! Her doc is very open to looking into other things but I may have to go off on my own for some answers too.
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Susan
LYME diagnosed 11/2010, allergic to wheat, Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, allergic to all grasses, most trees, dust
Mom to 9 year old dd, lyme, diagnosed 11/2011, highly gluten intolerant, epilepsy w/ generalized seizures, mitocondrial markers, malabsorption, recurring candida - Gluten-free Casein-free since 9/16/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09, seizure free since going gluten-free!
and 10 yr old dd, Lyme diagnosed 11/2011, severe dust allergy, allergic to most trees/grasses/weeds. Positive gluten intolerance testing. Gluten Free since 12/09/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09

#5 Rachel--24

 
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Posted 11 October 2008 - 05:25 PM

Since her doctor is a DAN! doctor I would think that he would be familiar with the methylation cycle. In recent years there is alot of research and evidence that points to the methylation cycle as being a major factor in ASD's and other conditions like CFS, Lyme Disease, chronic viral infections, etc.

I also have a DAN! doctor and the methylation cycle is something he looks at all day long....the problems vary with each patient so treatment has to be tailored for that person's specific needs.

Uusally if they have knowledge in this area they will get some indications whether or not the methylation cycle is impaired from the OAT results, urine amino acid analysis and if necessary genetic testing. There are alot of additional tests that I've done for heavy metals, lyme, viruses, yeast/mold, etc.

I put off the genetic testing for a long time because we werent sure if it was gonna be needed, because of cost and because the testing is still in its infancy...so there is alot that they still dont know.

Anyways, I just started with the DAN! doctor and had a huge pile of tests that were already done with previous doctors so we went right into looking at the methylation cycle and any possible genetic weaknesses. He also has me kind of "re-visiting" some of the other possibilities as well....so I'm having some additional tests for viruses, etc.

We already know mercury/heavy metals are an issue...that much has been known for a few years now.

Its good that her doctor is open to your own ideas/opinions. What types of things has he tested her for?

She may have other food intolerances besides gluten and dairy that might start to cause noticeable problems. What about soy?

Also, what types of things came up in her OAT?

Did she have any toxic indicators? Vitamin indicators? Oxalates?

I can provide you some info. on the methylation cycle if you're interested.

I do get gas, stomach pain and other symptoms from sulfur....so if those have increased while she's been on the glutathione it could be that she's not tolerating it.

I did have bloodwork a couple years ago for antioxidants, vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, etc and much of it was within the normal range....including glutathione. Overall my "total antioxidant function" level was "average".....not deficient but not in the desired range.

Anyways, the OAT provides more info. as to how these things are being utilized. For example, in bloodwork my B12 was borderline low....but not showing any significant deficiency. However, the OAT indicates B12 deficiency that may be caused by defective absorption or transport of B12.

I had very elevated methylmalonic acid which is an indicator of B12 deficiency and this is one of the factors that prompted the Dr. to look at my methylation cycle. Even though the bloodwork appears normal.....it doesnt mean that my body is utilizing/transporting these things the way that it should. If there is a "block" somewhere in my methylation cycle...alot of normal processes can be dysfunctional as a result. The biggest problem with impaired methylation is an accumulation of toxins, immune dysfunction and increased susceptibiltiy to chronic infections.

Its not a bad idea to do your own research. I've been doing that from the start and the doctors I've seen over the past few years have appreciated it and have also said that the more "involved" the patient is....the higher their chance for recovery. Even with the best doctors I dont think I'd get very far without taking an active role.
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#6 sugarsue

 
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Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:00 AM

Her orig. OAT was about 1 yr ago that we had it done. She did have high Oxalates. Tried the low oxalate diet for a while but the way I did it it had so much wheat in it so I didn't notice any help. We have not done another OAT until now so I don't know what her oxalates are like now. Our doc thinks they were high due to her yeast issues which are more undercontrol now so I hope to see those more normal. Also we did get a normal HPHPA test a few months ago. She didn't have any toxic indicators but did have vitamin indicators and High Krebs Cycle.

Elevated yeast/fungal metabolites, indicating a yeast/fungal overgrowth of the gastrointestinal tract. Increase in HPHPA
Elevated succinic acid
High citric acid
Elevated VMA
Low normal ascorbic acid (we did not supplement w/ vit. C because of the high oxalates)
Elevated Pantothenic acid
Elevated kynurenic acid
Increases in suberic acids

We have only been seeing our current DAN! doc for a few months so he's still getting up to speed on us (and us on him). Our other doc who we were seeing long distance over the phone probably looked at the methylation cycle but never called it that. I'll ask our doc about it when we see him next. We have not done any heavy metal testing which I'm not sure why.

She has a strange mixture of feeling better and still being sick. She will play much more now and then come to me looking exausted and feeling sick and says she wants to go home (even if we are home).
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Susan
LYME diagnosed 11/2010, allergic to wheat, Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, allergic to all grasses, most trees, dust
Mom to 9 year old dd, lyme, diagnosed 11/2011, highly gluten intolerant, epilepsy w/ generalized seizures, mitocondrial markers, malabsorption, recurring candida - Gluten-free Casein-free since 9/16/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09, seizure free since going gluten-free!
and 10 yr old dd, Lyme diagnosed 11/2011, severe dust allergy, allergic to most trees/grasses/weeds. Positive gluten intolerance testing. Gluten Free since 12/09/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09

#7 Rachel--24

 
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Posted 13 October 2008 - 09:17 PM

She has a strange mixture of feeling better and still being sick. She will play much more now and then come to me looking exausted and feeling sick and says she wants to go home (even if we are home).


Awww....hopefully your new doctor will come up with some things that will help her.

I agree that the high oxalates are usually tied in with yeast. At one time I had very elevated antibodies for yeast.....but this has improved alot for me. I think for me it was primarily foods with a high phenol content that were promoting the yeast issues.

I basically got strict with the Feingold/Falisafe diets and I think it helped alot with regard to the yeast. I still eat sugar so I know that wasnt the main thing in my case....beacuse the yeast situation did improve. My antibodies went down and I noticed some improvement.

I've only had one OAT...which was very recent....so I have no idea what it would have looked like a couple years ago. This one had all yeast/fungal metabolites within normal range (although the arabinose was at the very high end of normal). Everything regarding oxalates was within normal range.

Also, no bacteria metabolites were elevated in my test.

My results were very different from hers....pretty much everything that was out of range was in the vitamin indicators (almost all of them)....with one toxic indicator (glutathione deficiency) and one metabolite in the krebs that was out of range (that one I'm not too familiar with). Other than that my test was pretty clean.

I'm surprised they never checked into heavy metals....but its probably a good thing to look into at some point. You could always ask her DAN! what he thinks about it.

All of the doctors I've seen are treating kids...and they do alot of the same tests that they've done with me. Its mostly been focused on metals and infections (viral, bacterial and fungal).....and now the methylation stuff.

I'm kind of at the point where I'm also having a mixture of feeling better (alot better actually) but yet I'm still very sick....if that makes sense?

The diet changes have helped me the most so far. Since she's new to Gluten-free Casein-free you might notice more improvement with time and as you get a better handle on the diet. I think casien is much harder to avoid!

I'm not familiar with the HPHPA test?? Thats one I havent heard of yet.
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#8 sugarsue

 
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Posted 14 October 2008 - 04:58 PM

I'm not familiar with the HPHPA test?? Thats one I havent heard of yet.


This was one of the bacteria that is tested in the OAT. She had to take a special probiotic to help get rid of it. I am glad that you are starting to feel better and continuting to find answers. GOOD LUCK!
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Susan
LYME diagnosed 11/2010, allergic to wheat, Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, allergic to all grasses, most trees, dust
Mom to 9 year old dd, lyme, diagnosed 11/2011, highly gluten intolerant, epilepsy w/ generalized seizures, mitocondrial markers, malabsorption, recurring candida - Gluten-free Casein-free since 9/16/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09, seizure free since going gluten-free!
and 10 yr old dd, Lyme diagnosed 11/2011, severe dust allergy, allergic to most trees/grasses/weeds. Positive gluten intolerance testing. Gluten Free since 12/09/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09

#9 mftnchn

 
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Posted 14 October 2008 - 07:30 PM

Just a couple of comments adding to Rachel's ideas.

The up and down dramatic swings were very like what I went through for quite a while after Gluten-free Casein-free. I improved after going SF, but still many ups and downs. I'd take a careful look at soy.

I am glutathione deficient too, and in the summer started giving myself GSH injections. I notice that they really help. I recently gave myself an extra small amount on a day where I had symptoms and again, it really helped.

I wonder if the diarrhea is a cleansing effect...as the GSH helps with toxin removal. If only one month on the diet, it could take longer than that for things to stabilize.

In addition, I also wonder if your daughter has carbohydrate digestion problems. The up and down yo yo effect for me didn't really improve until this summer when I started the specific carbohydrate diet. Many of the kids are responding to this too. See www.pecanbread.com SCD is soy free too.
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4/2007 Positive IGA, TTG Enterolab results, with severe malabsorption: Two DQ2 celiac genes--highest possible risk.

gluten-free since 4/22/07; SF since 7/07; 3/08 & 7/08 high sugar levels in stool (i.e. cannot break down carbs) digestive enzymes for carbs didn't help; 7/18/08 started SCD as prescribed by my physician (MD).

10/2000 dx LYME disease; 2008 clinical dx CELIAC; Other: hypothyroid, allergies, dupuytrens, high mercury levels

#10 sugarsue

 
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Posted 15 October 2008 - 05:10 PM

Just a couple of comments adding to Rachel's ideas.

The up and down dramatic swings were very like what I went through for quite a while after Gluten-free Casein-free. I improved after going SF, but still many ups and downs. I'd take a careful look at soy.

I am glutathione deficient too, and in the summer started giving myself GSH injections. I notice that they really help. I recently gave myself an extra small amount on a day where I had symptoms and again, it really helped.

I wonder if the diarrhea is a cleansing effect...as the GSH helps with toxin removal. If only one month on the diet, it could take longer than that for things to stabilize.

In addition, I also wonder if your daughter has carbohydrate digestion problems. The up and down yo yo effect for me didn't really improve until this summer when I started the specific carbohydrate diet. Many of the kids are responding to this too. See www.pecanbread.com SCD is soy free too.


Thanks! I'm not familar with SCD so I will check that out. I don't give her soy although she may get some soy milk on rare occasion. I wonder if she'd do better with injections. I'll ask her doc about that. I've wondered that about detoxing from the glutathione too. I wish I knew because it might help me to continue knowing that some good is happening from all the diarrhea!

Susan
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Susan
LYME diagnosed 11/2010, allergic to wheat, Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, allergic to all grasses, most trees, dust
Mom to 9 year old dd, lyme, diagnosed 11/2011, highly gluten intolerant, epilepsy w/ generalized seizures, mitocondrial markers, malabsorption, recurring candida - Gluten-free Casein-free since 9/16/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09, seizure free since going gluten-free!
and 10 yr old dd, Lyme diagnosed 11/2011, severe dust allergy, allergic to most trees/grasses/weeds. Positive gluten intolerance testing. Gluten Free since 12/09/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09

#11 Rachel--24

 
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Posted 15 October 2008 - 05:47 PM

I wonder if she'd do better with injections.


Its worth a try. I do better with injections than I do with anything oral. Glutathione didnt go over very well either way though.

Another thing is that along with trying to supplement the glutathione (which can help alot if shes not reacting to it)....I think it would be important to get an idea as to what is holding down the glutathione levels to begin with. If the underlying problem is adressed then her body can hopefully overcome that and start having enough glutathione available to keep her from accumulating toxins.
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Rachel

#12 sugarsue

 
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Posted 16 October 2008 - 05:13 PM

Another thing is that along with trying to supplement the glutathione (which can help alot if shes not reacting to it)....I think it would be important to get an idea as to what is holding down the glutathione levels to begin with. If the underlying problem is adressed then her body can hopefully overcome that and start having enough glutathione available to keep her from accumulating toxins.


Yes, very excellent point. I have not discussed this directly with our new doc but will soon. I don't exactly know the next steps. After I find out the results of the OAT and stool analysis, I am thinking of suggesting other IgG and IgE tests like ELISA maybe and I don't want to forget about the sulfites and other things we've talked about in this thread.
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Susan
LYME diagnosed 11/2010, allergic to wheat, Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, allergic to all grasses, most trees, dust
Mom to 9 year old dd, lyme, diagnosed 11/2011, highly gluten intolerant, epilepsy w/ generalized seizures, mitocondrial markers, malabsorption, recurring candida - Gluten-free Casein-free since 9/16/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09, seizure free since going gluten-free!
and 10 yr old dd, Lyme diagnosed 11/2011, severe dust allergy, allergic to most trees/grasses/weeds. Positive gluten intolerance testing. Gluten Free since 12/09/08. Diagnosed with P.A.N.D.A.S. 6/20/09




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