Jump to content

Follow Us:  Twitter Facebook RSS Feed            




   arrowShare this page:
   

   Get email alerts  Subscribe to FREE Celiac.com email alerts

 
Celiac.com Sponsor:                                    


Photo
- - - - -

Ratzinger--not Good For Celiacs


  • Please log in to reply

75 replies to this topic

#61 celiac3270

 
celiac3270

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,263 posts
 

Posted 27 May 2005 - 02:55 AM

-----
  • 0

Celiac.com Sponsor:

#62 steadyed

 
steadyed

    New Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • Pip
  • 17 posts
 

Posted 27 May 2005 - 01:03 PM

After reading all this I feel compelled to point out the actual Catholic teaching in what happens during the Consecration at Mass. During the Consecration, the bread and wine are completely, totally, and utterly changed into the Body and Blood of Jesus. The wheat in the host, including the gluten, is gone. It does not exist any more.

I realize that there are many people here with different backgrounds and different religious beliefs. I also realize that other Christian faiths that have the Eucharist do not have exactly the same teachings as the Catholic Church when it comes to this either. That's okay. My purpose is merely to explain the actual teaching of the Catholic Church here.

As in any religious teaching, it is a matter of faith. It cannot be forced upon anyone.


Ed
  • 0

#63 celiac3270

 
celiac3270

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,263 posts
 

Posted 27 May 2005 - 01:16 PM

-----
  • 0

#64 celiac3270

 
celiac3270

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,263 posts
 

Posted 27 May 2005 - 01:22 PM

-----
  • 0

#65 connole1056

 
connole1056

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 143 posts
 

Posted 27 May 2005 - 09:28 PM

It was not an insult, it was the truth. A rogue is someone who engages in acts that vary from the standard. That is what the priest did when he claimed the girl's First Communion was valid. Claiming he is a rogue priest was not sinning. I was stating a fact. It's akin to me calling him a brunette if he had brown hair. Thanks for worrying about my immortal soul though!
  • 0

#66 Guest_BellyTimber_*

 
Guest_BellyTimber_*
  • Guests
 

Posted 27 May 2005 - 09:31 PM

Well said Connole.

celiac3270 - you complain you have got problems with your own religion.

A lot of the others - complain they have got problems with ours which is not theirs.

celiac3270 (and all Catholics) please note and this has all been said by others than me:

1.Ask for a separate wine cup (if you may have wine). If your parish priest doesn't allow communion in two kinds he is absolutely and utterly in the wrong.

2.Don't be deceived by people who say they can bend the rules for you when they can't.

3.If you don't use wine, use the ultra low gluten and ultra low wheat host once a year only; if not, make a spiritual communion. Not one of you (except Abby and Connole) said whether you had ever heard of that fact before or whether that fact makes any difference to what you think. Spiritual communion is a practice of equal value and status to communion in the elements of bread and wine when it is done for serious reasons of a medical nature.

4.First Communion on that basis is once in a life time.

5.Do home work.

6.Research from reliable and authoritative sources.

7.In regard to proportions of gluten in things, did you know that in the U.K., by law foods containing 200 parts gluten per million, may be called gluten free? That means that in the U.K., hundreds of thousands of coeliacs are still consuming gluten (I don't know whether their health is getting much better). The point being, a sense of proportion (and there is always as we have kept on saying spiritual communion). A lack of sense of proportion is somethimes called scruples. Scruples supposedly on behalf of someone else is insincere interference as we are used to in politicians and officials at least in my country if not yours; and on our own behalf may be counterproductive and hold us back from something better.

ETC ETC

We've got to wise up you and me and do our homework and stop hanging about on the fringes complaining, we're free to join something else you know. Do you want to live somewhere where it causes major legal ructions to change your religion?

We like to think we don't put up with misinformation from doctors, food companies or politicians, why should we put up with it from clergy or laity?

The priesthood is of believers under the High Priest and the church is of a inverted pyramid model of service. Anything else is just as bad news for men as for women whether they know it or not. If this really means anything to you seek God to bring about his will because in every generation this needs to be brought about anew, it can't be taken for granted. When did you last hear that from a pulpit now? Do some research - what kind of people are saying that though - including what famous people?

The wheat comes from the passover recipe, as Donna researched.

Don't recycle what you wrote before, think whether what others have written changes any of your ideas or not and if not, you've made your points already (badly).

There's nothing wrong with passion, we need clear headedness. We've gone round the circle, now let's go somewhere.

And by the way a title like "Ratzinger - not good for coeliacs" is grossly inaccurate and a misuse of the forum. I did see you listed somewhere at some time as a "leader" of some of the forums, is that a sort of under-moderator? You are reliable on some subjects and ought to be more tentative when you're less sure of the subject.

If you were proposing a debate you ought to have had the straightforwardness to insert at least a question mark into your title.
  • 0

#67 connole1056

 
connole1056

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 143 posts
 

Posted 27 May 2005 - 09:39 PM

Steadyed spoke of what I had touched on. I am glad you brought it up. The point is that after the consecration the host does NOT contain gluten. Most people do not have the faith to believe that and that is where much of the problem lies. Many other religions view the host as symbolic and not the actual body of Jesus. If this were part of my religion and I did not understand what happened at the consecration then I might, out of ignorance, question the Catholic teaching. So thank you for educating people.
  • 0

#68 connole1056

 
connole1056

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 143 posts
 

Posted 27 May 2005 - 09:52 PM

Gapspan brought up some very important issues. I agree with what was said about the title itself.

I did not know the exact formula for food labeling he spoke of, but I was aware that the definition of "gluten-free" is not the same worldwide. I was warned about this years ago. Some people will not eat anything gluten-free from other countries. It was a very good point to bring up.
  • 0

#69 celiac3270

 
celiac3270

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,263 posts
 

Posted 28 May 2005 - 06:49 AM

-----
  • 0

#70 connole1056

 
connole1056

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 143 posts
 

Posted 28 May 2005 - 11:16 PM

Thank you!
  • 0

#71 lovegrov

 
lovegrov

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,537 posts
 

Posted 29 May 2005 - 07:42 AM

"Steadyed spoke of what I had touched on. I am glad you brought it up. The point is that after the consecration the host does NOT contain gluten. Most people do not have the faith to believe that and that is where much of the problem lies."

So are you saying that the Catholics who I know who have gotten sick from the wafers are either imagining they got sick or they simply don't have enough faith? If they believed more they wouldn't have gotten sick?

richard
  • 0

#72 tarnalberry

 
tarnalberry

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,542 posts
 

Posted 29 May 2005 - 07:48 AM

I wonder if anyone has done an analysis on a wafer after it was "changed". (I'm an applied physicist by training - we think about testing things after every "change", so I'm not bringing this up in an intentionalyl sacriligeous way.)

But it also leads me to the question - one unanswerable without a well funded study - for those who take communion, how much of a reaction, or lack thereof, psychosomatic? I assume that the population of communion recievers include a representative sampling of both those who do truely believe that true transfiguration has taken place, and those who don't - even amongst Catholics. We know that psychosomatic effects are quite real, quite significant in some cases, and can work either way - making you feel better than you would without it or making you feel worse than you would without it.

It's nothing more than a thought experiment, because it's not going to happen, I'm sure, but it's an interesting one.
  • 0
Tiffany aka "Have I Mentioned Chocolate Lately?"
Inconclusive Blood Tests, Positive Dietary Results, No Endoscopy
G.F. - September 2003; C.F. - July 2004
Hiker, Yoga Teacher, Engineer, Painter, Be-er of Me
Bellevue, WA

#73 Guest_BellyTimber_*

 
Guest_BellyTimber_*
  • Guests
 

Posted 29 May 2005 - 09:33 AM

:D

Tiffany, your question is 100% spot on and the answer is it has been done. The answers have got nothing to do with any concept of "psychosomatic".

The elements in the Eucharist exist at three or four levels in the off-the-cuff description of my friend who is an experienced higher student of theology at possibly one of the top handful of theology colleges in the UK (with the odd comment by me thrown in):

- the level of investigation (your question) which is the SAME level as that of digestion AND of sensory perception. This is sometimes, in technical theological terminology called "appearances". This is EXACTLY why the Catholic Church DOES permit and extremely highly esteems the accommodations I described some days ago, in non-frivolous circumstances of the kind I described. I am not out to undermine anybody and do agree with everything else Connole has said.

- the philosophical level of the concept of being fed by bread (as Donna has pointed out this comes from the Passover). This is not trivial or a sop, all the churches bring this out strongly I think.

- The sacramental level which perhaps is the same as the vision of faith as the Body of Christ (in the instance of the wine, the Blood of Christ). Why fed, and what is the relevance of being fed in the dimension of faith? It is about being fed on the journey God has called us each on (like the journey of the Exodus people in the first place), in which our personal history is intricately involved. Meaning of life questions. If you haven't had this area opened up much for you, I hope you will be at peace about this and open-hearted exploration of all these things is something where God will lead you and I want to talk about the first level mentioned especially.

All these levels are existing at the same time. They are poles. You can't have the earth without the south pole because you only like the north (in fact there seem to be at least three in the above account but you get my drift...).

Life is more interesting when its multidimensionality can be appreciated.

The gift Connole has mentioned, of confidence in not receiving harm at a bodily level from the bread (or wine, if having alcohol sensitivity - like one - only one - alcoholic in recovery whom I know) is an additional issue. If this does not mean anything to you please do not worry about it!

Meantime it is possible for some people to decide that an extremely-low-gluten wafer contains no more than say the level of "contamination" encountered in daily living and that consuming it as frequently as instructed by the Church (once yearly) is right for them. For those that know that is in turn too much the "Spiritual Communion" is extremely warmly recommended as being of the same value in cultivating one's relationship with God by the Official, mainstream, orthodox and authoritative church. I'm sure we would welcome some more reaction about this reality if anyone has got some insight on it.

I most warmly invite all those among you, and anyone else with concerns around these points to explore them assertively, constructively and openheartedly with church officials who really know their stuff about all this, I can only say if the officials concerned in these stories (and perhaps in your experiences which you are not mentioning) forgot to refer you to such a source of reliable information (and we don't know that didn't happen in the publicised case, I think the published story doesn't say so at any rate), it must be because they are only human having a less than perfect day, just like the rest of us this side of ... YKW! (and also some church officials get some facts wrong)

My doctor forgot to refer me to a gastroenterologist and we have read here of some doctors getting things wrong but that doesn't contradict the positive reality of an ever expanding body of knowledge being discovered by the searchers for facts in our generation - new discoveries don't contradict the reality of coeliac disease and similar and related conditions but simply carry on putting them in context. Knowledge doesn't invent but discovers and explores.

My pastor was given the rest of a box of hosts by the spouse of a deceased parishioner, I am going to fetch them off him then bring one at a time to Mass and see how I get on with them, having studied the composition stated on the label, and then see from my resulting experince of them whether I fit into the category, purely practically speaking, of using them or of making a Spiritual Communion. A couple of months ago I stated that I would prefer the wheat thing to be absolutely varied in such a case but since then I have enquired and found the above explanation satisfactory. (I hope I haven't garbled it too badly)

The taking of the standard host, the taking of the ultra-low-gluten one frequently, the taking of the ultra-low-gluten one once a year, and the Spiritual Communion, when the latter are done for the serious reasons we know apply in the case mentioned, are therefore evidently practical distinctions in procedure only, because God designed us to live in the practical sphere of eyes, hands and intestines, and each of these procedures are of equal spiritual value.

:rolleyes:

P.S. - important for the reputation of the forum - please can administrators, moderators and leaders take note - please can the discussion be continued under a new title expressing a straight question (not slanted) or a neutral statement please!

Very glad indeed that the discussion broke free of lunar orbit, let's keep it that way!

;)

Also I'm very sorry if my words about the reality of the subject, expressed with dynamism, wrongly included harsh words to those who have done so much for me :( :)
  • 0

#74 connole1056

 
connole1056

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 143 posts
 

Posted 29 May 2005 - 07:46 PM

To answer you lovegrov, I never said or implied that anyone you know who got sick was imagining any sickness or reaction. Since faith is between God and the faithful as individuals I cannot say whether or not their faith is strong, weak or somewhere in between the two. But that could be something you could ask them. I know people who have received the host at communion with the belief that it is Jesus' body entering their bodies and been fine. If you are familiar with the Catholic teaching about what happens at the consecraion you should be able to see how this can happen. This is one of the differences separating the Catholic religion from other Christian denominations. Other Christian churches do not think of communion in anything but symbolic terms. But the Catholic faithful are taught this miracle does takes place at the consecration. It does not have anything to do with the makeup of the host as it is no longer the same host.I know many people have a hard time with this and if they do not want to take a leap of faith, that is certainly their option. I do not think this is something to be done to "see if it works" because then the person is testing God and that should not be done. It is not something where a person can say he'll do it to prove a point fully expecting to get ill.
  • 0

#75 connole1056

 
connole1056

    Advanced Community Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 143 posts
 

Posted 29 May 2005 - 08:09 PM

Just so there is no uproar-I was not judging anyone's level of belief in the validity of the consecration. I do not and cannot know what a person truly thinks about any issue, religious or otherwise. However, I did point out that people have taken a leap of faith and received the host without problem. I thought some Catholics would like another side of the story, something to ponder. Perhaps pray about this and look at the issue from a different angle.
I e-mailed someone earlier that what is very difficult about writing something is that one cannot know how it will be taken. When speaking we annunciate, gesture, use facial expressions and add inflection to our voices so our meaning is usually obvious. I do not know if anyone else has thought about this when reading through posts. I mention this because it seemed lovegrov was upset and I did not know if I made myself clear. But who knows, I may have taken what lovegrov wrote about me the wrong way!
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Celiac.com Sponsors: