[EmilyR83]

I was reading this article http://autism.about.com/od/vaccinesandauti...tfulhouse_2.htm

At my sons 12 month doctors appointment, my doc and I decided to put off the MMR for a couple months until we knew what was wrong with him. He is almost 15 months now and we have found out that he has celiacs. The article says that if a child has a weakened immune system, the child would be more susceptible to autism. Here is a little clip from it

MMR and other live-virus vaccines negatively impact certain children with a vulnerable immune system. This immune weakness is likely to be genetic but can also be induced or made worse by environmental toxins. These children fail to clear viruses appropriately, and the viruses may remain in the gut and other body tissues. The immune system responds with a dysregulated production of cytokines, leading to an abnormal degree of inflammation. Initially the inflammation occurs in the gut but ultimately inflammation occurs in the brain. Neurological inflammation affects behavior, presenting as an autism spectrum disorder.

Well, this all makes me nervous about getting this vaccine. So do you guys get the vaccine? What are your thoughts?

[FMcGee]

I would recommend going beyond about.com to research this. Medical researchers have shown again and again that there is no link between vaccines and autism. About.com isn't scientific, and there's no good way to evaluate the information you read there. I've found lots and lots and LOTS of misinformation on that website, on everything from history to horses. I'd DEFINITELY read some actual scientific, medical studies about this.

It's also worth noting that if people stop vaccinating their children, these diseases are going to come back. That is going to be extremely bad for society, and especially for women, who are disproportionately going to have to stay home in the quarantines with their children that will be imposed when these diseases start breaking out. This has already begun happening in some places. A child whose parents didn't vaccinate him traveled abroad, picked up the disease, brought it back, and the town had an outbreak. Women (because of the way our society works - women still make only slightly more than 3/4 of what men do, women are expected to be the caretakers, etc.) had to stay home with their children and many lost their jobs. It also wreaked havoc on the school system. Not to mention, of course, that many children got sick and some died because of these awful, awful diseases. Measles, mumps, and rubella are extremely serious, and can certainly kill a child with a weakened immune system. Just because one person's child may not travel somewhere the disease is, doesn't mean no one around her will.

Putting off vaccinating your child because he's been unwell thanks to celiac makes sense, and you and your doctor understand the situation better than anyone on the board could. But please look into actual medical research about this, because, as I said, it has disproven the link between vaccinations and autism time and again, and there are societal implications for ignoring those studies.

[Jestgar]

Research the risks from getting those diseases versus the risk from vaccine.

[FMcGee]

Jestgar, on Oct 8 2009, 07:39 AM, said:

Research the risks from getting those diseases versus the risk from vaccine.

Also a good suggestion.

[TrillumHunter]

And also, you don't have to give the combo vaccine. That is for convenience and avoiding extra needle sticks for the child. There is a slower, less aggressive schedule you can follow. We did that with our last two and I was much more comfortable about all of it.

If you are serious, you will need to do much more research. Don't allow yourself to be scared by horror stories from either side. Look at the evidence and make your decisions based on that.

FMcGee, I'm interested in reading more about the incident you mention. Can you give the approximate time and place it happened?

[FMcGee]

I heard about it on NPR. The story aired about a year ago, I believe, and it took place in central California. I'll try to look up the details on the NPR archives later today, when I've got a little more time.

[TrillumHunter]

Thanks! I'll look on NPR and see what I can find.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

www.fourteenstudies.org discusses the studies that are held up as supposedly showing no link between vaccines and autism.

Every one of those studies was either conducted by or funded by someone who directly profited by the vaccines in that study, which constitutes a clear conflict of interest.

In addition, there are many significant flaws in every one of those studies, and they are discussed at length.

The only thing that can disprove the link between vaccines and autism would be a study comparing the rate of autism in vaccinated populations vs. unvaccinated population, and that has never been done, despite repeated requests from the parents of those who have documented adverse effects from vaccines.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

I forgot to mention that VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Effect Reporting System) has been involved with compensating a couple of thousand families for vaccine-induced injuries and deaths, including 2 very recent cases that specified the MMR (Hannah Poling and Bailey Banks).Their dx was officially PDD--which is used interchangeably with autism in many legal definitions.

The vaccine companies have blanket liability protection--even if your child dies from a vaccine, they cannot be held liable.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

FMcGee, on Oct 8 2009, 07:20 AM, said:

I would recommend going beyond about.com to research this. Medical researchers have shown again and again that there is no link between vaccines and autism. About.com isn't scientific, and there's no good way to evaluate the information you read there. I've found lots and lots and LOTS of misinformation on that website, on everything from history to horses. I'd DEFINITELY read some actual scientific, medical studies about this.

It's also worth noting that if people stop vaccinating their children, these diseases are going to come back. That is going to be extremely bad for society, and especially for women, who are disproportionately going to have to stay home in the quarantines with their children that will be imposed when these diseases start breaking out. This has already begun happening in some places. A child whose parents didn't vaccinate him traveled abroad, picked up the disease, brought it back, and the town had an outbreak. Women (because of the way our society works - women still make only slightly more than 3/4 of what men do, women are expected to be the caretakers, etc.) had to stay home with their children and many lost their jobs. It also wreaked havoc on the school system. Not to mention, of course, that many children got sick and some died because of these awful, awful diseases. Measles, mumps, and rubella are extremely serious, and can certainly kill a child with a weakened immune system. Just because one person's child may not travel somewhere the disease is, doesn't mean no one around her will.

Putting off vaccinating your child because he's been unwell thanks to celiac makes sense, and you and your doctor understand the situation better than anyone on the board could. But please look into actual medical research about this, because, as I said, it has disproven the link between vaccinations and autism time and again, and there are societal implications for ignoring those studies.

I agree with what you say about women being disproportionately affected by ill children, but vaccines aren't the answer until they are made safer.

There are thousands and thousands of reports to VAERS of serious adverse reactions to vaccines (including death). Try telling the mothers of those children that vaccines are the answer. Having a child permanently disabled by a vaccine injury (and yes, they are documented, they just don't get reported by the media) is worse for your job than a short illness.

Most of the vaccines aren't even for "awful, awful diseases" for which babies would be at high risk, anyway.

Hepatitis B is a good example, requiring 3 doses, the first the day of birth. This is a disease that is spread by tainted needles and sexual contact. Know any babies at risk for that? Those that truly are (the child of a mother who uses drugs or has multiple sexual partners) might be candidates for a vaccine--but there are no studies on such children, nor what their likelihood of being already infected at birth.

Hep B is also very high on VAERS' list of adverse effects, and has been taken off the schedule in France, where it was proved in court that it caused MS. See http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/200...ent-untruthful/

Measles and Mumps used to be considered normal, mild childhood diseases. Yes, there were some who had much more severe cases--just like there are some who have much more severe reactions to vaccines. But the number of adverse effects of vaccines is far greater than the number of deaths from measles and mumps.

Rubella is not a severe disease--it is so mild, most don't even know that they have it. However, it can have a devastating effect on the developing fetus of an exposed pregnant mother.

I'm not saying that we should throw out the idea of vaccines altogether. But we need safer vaccines, and a more reasonable vaccine schedule. The MMR has been linked (yes, in reproduced studies) to developmental delays, so Andrew Wakefield's suggestion of separate M, M, and R components, given six months apart makes sense. The only trouble is, the separate vaccines currently available are preserved with thimerosal.

Both JAMA and the British Medical Journal have gone on record stating that the flu vaccine is ineffective for children and for the elderly. It even says on the flu vaccine package insert "effectiveness not determined in children and elderly"--yet the flu vaccine (90% of which is preserved with thimerosal) is on the yearly schedule for everyone over 6 months, and is given to pregnant women in spite of the fact that thimerosal crosses the placenta AND the blood-brain barrier.

If the tobacco companies funded, directed, and published studies showing that tobacco does not cause cancer, would anyone take them, seriously? Of course not. But that's what is happening with vaccines.

[FMcGee]

For some reason, I stopped getting notifications of replies to this threat. Weird. Anyway, here's the This American Life story I referenced before: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Epis...spx?episode=370

Twelve medical studies have shown no link to vaccines and autism. A huge study published in the New England Journal of Medicine says, “Our study does not support a causal association between early exposure to mercury from thimerosal-containing vaccines… and deficits in neuropsychological functioning at the age of 7 to 10 years.” You can see it here: http://content.nejm....ort/357/13/1281

Eleven studies repeated this finding. Six have shown that thimerosal does not cause autism, and three have shown that it does not cause any neurological problems. Studies showing that thimerosal does cause these problems are flawed studies, have serious conflicts of interest, or have been conducted in animals whose results cannot be extrapolated to humans. The initial study, conducted by Dr. Andrew Wakefield, that showed a link between the MMR vaccine and autism was flawed because the researcher deliberately ignored a contamination in the vaccination that could have caused complications. Wakefield has been exposed as a fraud. You can read more about all of this at these websites:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/.../full/114/3/793
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F...al.pone.0003140
http://www.salon.com/books/review/2008/09/...tism/index.html

These myths about vaccinations and autism persist for a number of reasons - and they are myths, because *science and medicine have repeatedly disproven them* - and politicians in both parties aren't helping. In the 2008 campaign, McCain and Obama especially (and Clinton to a lesser extent) gave some credence to these ideas about vaccines and autism, in telling people what they wanted to hear. This was dangerous. I lost some respect for all three. Advocacy groups have accused the federal government, drug companies, and doctors of concealing the truth about the connection of thimerosal to autism. Celebrities have also gotten on board. Oprah, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and Jenny McCarthy have fanned the flames of autism scares. McCarthy is particularly vocal. Even though research points to a genetic link to autism, McCarthy persists in spreading the idea that her son “caught” autism from a vaccine, and that she is “curing” it through a gluten-free, casein-free diet. In the most recent issue of Living Without magazine, she explains that his diet has cured his disease. Autism, science has shown, has no cure at this point, and it is not something a child can “catch.” McCarthy seems to rely on the idea that her being a mother endows her with a knowledge that scientific researchers do not possess, and tries to appeal to other parents – parents of children with autism, who are afraid – to push her agenda. These parents would be better served by working with the scientists and doctors who are trying to learn more about autism and other pediatric diseases, including those that are prevented by vaccines. McCarthy has been getting more and more attention, though, especially from Oprah Winfrey, who has not been giving equal time to the pro-vaccination crowd (including Amanda Peet, who has been outspoken in favor of vaccinations for years, to no fanfare at all). McCarthy has been profiting from her evidence-free screeds, and exploiting a frightened group of parents to do it.

One man, Dr. Paul A. Offit, the chief of pediatric infectious diseases at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, has received death threats from anti-vaccine advocates. He developed a vaccine that prevents rotavirus, a gastrointestinal infection in children, and has been firmly pro-vaccine. Offit’s book, Autism’s False Prophets: Bad Science, Risky Medicine, and the Search for a Cure (2008) shows that the people who have benefited from the anti-vaccine myths have been those who sell “cures” to parents of autistic children. These treatments lack evidence of effectiveness or safety. Offit also addresses how readily society will misconstrue science, holding a single, unverified study as fact. Offit emphasizes that we should be skeptical of a study’s conclusions until its results can be verified by future studies, and highlights many errors in articles written by Kennedy and others. The anti-vaccine movement, he says, is not grounded in fact, but in greed and opportunism. This is causing real harm.

I don't think that everyone who thinks that vaccines cause autism are stupid. I think that the people who have been spreading this misinformation are a microphone minority, and they are deliberately pushing an agenda based on greed an opportunism and not on fact. We cannot rely on herd immunity for our children. Herd immunity is going down as fewer and fewer people are vaccinating. This is dangerous for everyone. Measles is at its highest point since 1996 (see: http://www.salon.com/books/review/2008/09/...ism/index.html). Vaccines are the most lifesaving and significant medical therapy in recent history, and they are being discarded by people with a profit-motive agenda.

I'm not even in the science field. I do history. It's just a matter of doing your own research, looking for evidence that has been proven, and looking at the quality of the study. And, for goodness' sake, don't look to "Living Without" for anything but good recipes. They never take a critical approach to anything.

[FMcGee]

There are two other things I should mention: One, As the vaccination rate goes down, the autism rate continues to rise. And two, measles is a terrible disease that causes fevers high enough to potentially result in brain damage. Brain damage is what people are claiming the vaccines cause. It isn't necessarily just a short-term illness that goes away. It can be deadly, and it can have lifelong repercussions. If measles comes back in a big way, the health of our society is in trouble. The measles outbreak in San Diego is being shrugged off because everyone survived it, but we might not be so lucky next time, and the health department was only able to contain the disease by quarantine. Herd immunity isn't reliable. If you're worried about giving your child all her vaccinations at once, there's nothing wrong with spacing them out. Plenty of pediatricians are happy to do that now.

[Roda]

Fiddle-Faddle, on Oct 9 2009, 07:37 AM, said:

Hepatitis B is a good example, requiring 3 doses, the first the day of birth. This is a disease that is spread by tainted needles and sexual contact. Know any babies at risk for that? Those that truly are (the child of a mother who uses drugs or has multiple sexual partners) might be candidates for a vaccine--but there are no studies on such children, nor what their likelihood of being already infected at birth.

Hep B is also very high on VAERS' list of adverse effects, and has been taken off the schedule in France, where it was proved in court that it caused MS. See http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/200...ent-untruthful/

Hep B can be passed by blood and other potentially infectious material not just sexual contact and tainted needles. An infected mother can pass it to her unborn child also. That said, unless there is a high risk for the infant, I do think the dosing schedule could be later when the baby gets a little older. Here is a very good link.

http://www.hepfi.org/living/liv_abc.html?g...CFQyenAod6VUYqw

[Mysh]

I'm on the fence as far as immunisations go. I don't know if they do or dont cause autism. I have two children with autism.

Big regrets for me:-
Not knowing more about the risks of giving a premature baby vaccines.
Not waiting until he was much older to vaccinate.
Not spreading vaccines out
Not asking for single doses.

I am a believer in vaccines, but not on the current schedules. I personally believe we overload young children and it's unecessary. I'd rather pay for my childrens vaccines to be spread out - but thats a personal choice. Thimerosol which used to be the biggest concern in vaccinations was removed from most vaccines a few years ago, but some still carry it (flu vaccines etc).

Depending on where you are in the world, you may be able to ask for single shots, given over time. In Australia we don't have that option. The only vaccine we can get here as a single vaccine is polio.

I had my son (previously immunised at 18 months with MMR) checked for immunity levels at his 4 yr old school shots and those tests showed he still carried immunity and so I chose not to have booster shots.

Do your research, there is a lot of information out there and dont let anyone sway you, or bully you into making a decision. If in doubt, wait a while.

[FMcGee]

Mysh, on Nov 6 2009, 07:11 AM, said:

I'm on the fence as far as immunisations go. I don't know if they do or dont cause autism. I have two children with autism.
....
Thimerosol which used to be the biggest concern in vaccinations was removed from most vaccines a few years ago, but some still carry it (flu vaccines etc).

Depending on where you are in the world, you may be able to ask for single shots, given over time. In Australia we don't have that option. The only vaccine we can get here as a single vaccine is polio.

....
Do your research, there is a lot of information out there and dont let anyone sway you, or bully you into making a decision. If in doubt, wait a while.

Vaccines don't cause autism. That has been proven repeatedly. I linked to studies above that show that, and show that, in fact, thimerosal doesn't have any neurological impact. Very few vaccines use it now, since 2001. Autism is scary, because we don't know what causes it, but studies are pointing towards genetics. I linked to some of those studies above, too, and this website has covered other studies that suggest similar findings, though I didn't link to those.

That said, you can usually spread out vaccines, and most pediatricians will work with you on that. I'd say that if a pediatrician isn't willing to respect your wishes to spread out the vaccines, you might want to try to find a new one. It's important to have a pediatrician you trust and with whom you have a good relationship (and whom your child likes!). There are all kinds of reasons various children might need to have a different vaccine schedule from the standard, and pediatricians understand that. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Schools are beginning to understand that, too, though as is often the case, they may need some nudging.