Reverse-Engineering Udi's Bread

[MelindaLee]

:blink:I read this thread when it was just a couple pages long...so maybe someone has touched on this. I was reading a cook book on baking gluten-free...they were talking about altitude changes. Is it possible the difference in Udi's comparent to us around sea level is the altitude???

[Krystyn41]

I read your recipe and I'm surprised you used 8 eggwhites!! Wow! I hope I don't have to use 8 eggwhites to make bread! I was also surprised you used 4 tsps salt and 4 tsp xanthum gum. If it was "gummy" it's too much xanthum gum. I have decided that 1 1/2 tsp of santhum gum is all I want in any baked good that i make. I was wondering..wasn't it too salty? You may be right on using that many eggwhites as something is making those "holes" in their bread. Thanks a lot for trying. Let's keep it up. I made it again and i will post my results as soon as i investigate something.

Kris

I'm starting to think that I'm a glutton for punishment. I was thinking about the mock udi's bread recipe that I came up with after toying with my german puffy pancake recipe. So I pulled out my gluten-free bread supplies and my recipe.

Here's the latest version, which created more air holes than my previous version. When placed next to the real Udi's the air holes are very comparable in size, and the bread's texture is pretty close to the original. My version is a tad more dense/gummy than the original, but tastes pretty close. I'm about 1000 ft. above sea level.

I used a 50/50 combination of rice flour and buckwheat. You can't tell that there is buckwheat in the bread, and I replaced a half a tablespoon of oil with one egg yolk in the second test batch just to see what happened. It didn't alter the texture any, but the loaf did get a tad bit more golden brown than the other batch.

Revised Mock Udi's bread:

3 c. rice flour (or a combination of buckwheat and rice flour)

3/4 c. (potato, corn, or tapioca) starch

4 tsp. xanthan gum

4 tsp. salt

6 tsp. yeast

4 tbsp. oil

3 tbsp. sugar

4 tsp. baking powder

2 1/2 tsp. dough enhancer or vinegar

approximately 3 c. water (divided into 1 and 2 cups)

8 egg whites

1 tsp cream of tartar

First, let yeast dissolve with sugar and 1 cup of water, let sit while you whip the egg whites.

Whip the egg white to stiff peaks, adding the cream of tartar as the egg whites begin to turn white. Set aside.

Combine dry ingredients and add to the yeast mixture, oil, and about 1 1/2 cups of the remaining water. Stir well to combine, add in a bit more water as needed to make the dough soft enough to resemble cookie dough.

Fold in egg whites a quarter at a time, gently folding until well combined, then adding more egg whites. Once all the egg whites are incorporated, gently scoop/"pour" batter into 2 well greased loaf pans.

Let rise in a warm place for 30 minutes, then bake at 350 degrees for 30-35 minutes until golden brown all over.

[Krystyn41]

Hello! I "googled" Udi's bread in my town and found a place that actually sells it. I went over, bought one loaf (it's very small, isn't it?), et it and tried to emulate it again. The place I bought it is going out of business so I still have to figure out how to make this bread!

Udi's bread

1 1/2 cups of brown rice flour

1/2 potato starch

1 cup of Tapioca flour

1/3 cup corn starch

2 tsp xanthum gum

3 tbsp Blue Agava

1 1/2 tsp salt

4 tbsp dried egg whites

2/3 cup dried milk powder

1 tbsp yeast

1 tbsp cider vinegar

2 tbsp olive oil

1 1/2 cup water

2 tbsp lecithin granules

1 tablespoon caraway seed

First I placed the warmed water, agave syrup and yeast in a measuring cup to let the yeast expand while i was mixing the other ingredients. This is did nicely esp. since i already had the oven on and i placed this cup on the stove. I mixed all the other ingredients but waited till i was ready to place it in the oven before i put in the xanthum gum. I added at least 1/2 cup more of water cause it appeared too thick. I plopped all this in just 1 bread loaf pan. I baked it for 50 minutes, tested with a toothpick, which didn't come out clean. I baked it some more at 350 degrees, approximately 1 hour total. I gave up and took it out of the oven. At 50 minutes it browned beautifully, it tasted great but it was extremely gummy!! (Which is why i kept cooking it!) To me, the "gumminess" factor ruins it!

Assessment:

I just did some research on xanthum gum/lecithin and it appear to me that a lot of recipes call for both. However, the next time I will MAKE sure i DO NOT use more than 1 1/2 tsp. of xanthum gum in ANYTHING and I'm certain that adding at least 2 tablespoons of lecithin probably made it even more gummy. I'm gonna try the recipe again but maybe use the fresh eggs (3) that it called for plus 1 tbsp. of dried egg white, use only 1 1/2 tsp xanthum gum and 1 tsp of lecithin.

What do ya'll think??

[halfrunner]

I read your recipe and I'm surprised you used 8 eggwhites!! Wow! I hope I don't have to use 8 eggwhites to make bread! I was also surprised you used 4 tsps salt and 4 tsp xanthum gum. If it was "gummy" it's too much xanthum gum. I have decided that 1 1/2 tsp of santhum gum is all I want in any baked good that i make. I was wondering..wasn't it too salty? You may be right on using that many eggwhites as something is making those "holes" in their bread. Thanks a lot for trying. Let's keep it up. I made it again and i will post my results as soon as i investigate something.

Kris

Well, as far as the egg whites go, it is for 2 full size (ie normal loaf pan) loaves of bread. If you only make 1 loaf, it's only 4 egg whites, which is not much. Plus, you need the extra protein and volume to hold the loaf together without it turning into a hockey puck.

As far as the salt, that is what DH decided was enough after numerous loaves, any less and he said it was tasteless. That is definitely one ingredient you can cut down some if you don't want to use that much.

The "rule of thumb" I've stuck to where xanthan gum is concerned is 1 tsp. per cup of gluten-free flour. You can experiment as much as you like, but that is why I use the amount I do. Less changes the texture some. And again, that's still only 2 tsp. per loaf, which is usually divided over about 16 slices. YMMV, but it doesn't seem like an excessive amount.

[bitu]

Hm, will note that amount of xanthan for future reference. Is there a rule of thumb of how much to use per amount of gluten-free flour?

Used 1 tsp yeast. Let the dough rise for about 2 hours (covered in microwave with container of hot water because house is too cool to let it rise in the kitchen). It rose up to maybe half the size of a typical Udi's loaf. Would more yeast make a difference? Or more rising time?

Thanks for the tip on the egg whites. I tried whipping them with oil because another recipe had a similar step & was curious if it'd make a difference or not.

Just stumbled upon this topic; very interesting. Beating eggs and sugar is a common technique used in gluten baking, referred to as "ribboning." You beat them together until the mixture thickens, and falls from the beater in ribbons that sink slowly back into the surface of the mixture. It does impart lots of tiny bubbles that help with the rise. This technique is usually used with cakes and quickbreads. (I am a professional baker newly diagnosed with celiac, although my baking experience isn't serving me terribly well in making gluten-free breads thus far)

[bitu]

I don't think so. I have no experience with egg replacer as DH still eats eggs without trouble, but I know the egg white solids/powdered egg whites are exactly what they sound like. I guess you'd have to try the egg replacer and see what happens.

egg replacer is made with tapioca and potato starches, will whip somewhat, but not to the meringue consistancy of real egg whites.

[bitu]

With regards to Udi's bread being a dough consistency as opposed to a batter: I think this is accomplished purely by the technique used in making the dough. I suspect that the water may be boiled, added to the starches, mixed, and allowed to cool before proceeding with the other ingredients. I will experiment some using riceguy's original formulation.

[bitu]

I may have to take back what I said about the rise time. I just started using a brand new package of yeast, and wow, it has cut the rise time by nearly half! Same type, same brand. The only difference is that it's newer. So now, what usually would take about 70 minutes, now takes about 35. I suspect that the last few experiments were taking longer only because I was nearing the bottom of the previous container of yeast. Although, I don't recall such a quick rise when that package was new, so perhaps it was already somewhat stale when I got it. In any case, this just emphasizes that the time required to rise the dough can vary quite a lot, and we shouldn't think something is wrong if our experience doesn't match that of someone else.

What this appears to also be effecting, is how far to let it rise before baking. Since it rises so fast, the time it takes for the dough to heat up enough to kill the yeast allows for some additional rise. I should note here that because my oven has a warm setting which I use for rising the dough, I don't preheat the oven before baking. Rather, I just remove the cover from the pan, and start the bake cycle. The time required for the oven to heat up is therefor a factor as well.

The first time I used some yeast from the new package, I was caught by surprise, and the dough rose too high, subsequently falling as it baked. Obviously, I can just use less yeast if I want to extend the rise time. I do notice a bit more yeast taste too, which is only logical I suppose.

You might also want to try a slower rise, at about 80 degrees. In my experience, a slower rise makes the loaf more stable and less likely to fall after baking.

[dcrehr]

I read this thread a while ago and have only just gotten around to trying out making Udi bread from the reverse-engineered recipe.

I think I have more or less nailed it, and, lucky for me, on the second try.

I used the whole-grain recipe. The first try was as-written, beat the egg whites and folded them in, baked at 350 for 1 hour, and the bread collapsed. I baked it at 350 degrees for about 1 hour. I could not get Teff flour, so put in twice the specified Flax Seed Meal instead.

On the second try, I made the following changes:

1) added an additional 1/4 tsp of xanthan gum

2) used about half the amount of water specified (didn't measure exactly)

3) did not pre-beat the egg whites (this, the result of a bonehead mistake that makes no difference at this point).

I mixed this all up with a mixer until thoroughly blended. The dry yeast was proofed in 3 T of water with about 2 tsp of sugar, but I think you can add the yeast directly to the batter and get as good a result. Rising time may take a little longer.

I ended up with a sticky dough (maybe call it a thick batter). It filled the bread loaf pan (glass) only about 1-inch worth. Put it in a warm place and waited for it to rise. I didn

[dcrehr]

One more thing...

I put my finished loaf in a plastic bag in the refrigerator. A week later (I only ate a few slices), the texture was much much closer to Udi's store bought.

Duh.

Give it some time to dry out, and the too-much-moisture problem goes away. How old do you think your last Udi's store-bought loaf was??

DR

[dcrehr]

My last post on this, to summarize it all, so you won't have to go looking all over the place to make adjustments. I've made this enough times now to be confident that the recipe and technique works consistently.

"UDI" Whole Grain Bread

DRY INGREDIENTS:

1/2 Cup Tapioca Flour/Starch

1/4 cup + 1/2 tablespoon Brown Rice Flour

3 tablespoons Potato Starch

1-1/2 tablespoons sugar

3 tablespoons Flax Seed Meal

1 teaspoon Xanthan gum

1/2 teaspoon salt

1/2 teaspoon baking powder

WET INGREDIENTS:

1-1/2 tablespoons vegetable oil

3 egg whites extra large

1 teaspoon apple cider vinegar

3/8 cup water

IN ADDITION TO THE ABOVE:

1 teaspoon dry yeast

1 teaspoon sugar

mixed with 3 tablespoons warm water

TECHNIQUE -

1) Put together the yeast/sugar/water mixture first. Water should be warm to get the yeast going. Set this aside in a warm place. By the time to get back to it, it should be foamy, indicating the yeast is good.

2) Combine the dry ingredients and mix together well.

3) Combine the wet ingredients and mix together well. (Some people have suggested beating the whites - I did not and therefor do not think it is necessary)

4) Add the wet ingredients to the dry ingredient... and then dump in the foamy yeast mixture. Stir it all together vigorously with a stout wooden spoon. You'll end up with something that is halfway between dough and batter. If you want, you can use a mixer, but doing it by hand is really pretty easy.

5) Prepare a bread loaf pan (one with handles is preferable) by lightly spraying it with an anti-stick spray (I use Waffle-Off, but something like Pam will do fine). Be very careful not to overdo it. When the bread is done, you will be inverting the pan and resting it on a couple of supports so that it cools upside down, so you do want it to stick at least a little bit.

6) Use a rubber spatula to spread the dough evenly into the loaf pan. Cover and set it aside in a warm place to rise. I don't know all the factors in rising time, but don't worry about it. If the yeast is good, it will rise. Two hours or more is not unusual. Just set it aside and forget about it. Once the top of the dough begins to touch the covering (I use plastic wrap, so I can see it), its ready to bake.

7) Preheat oven to 325.

8) Bake at 325 for 90 minutes. NOTE - this is a lower temp and longer time than for the average bread recipe, but this is what makes it work. What you'll get is a loaf that is very brown on the outside. The crust is a bit thicken than average, but I believe it is this crust that plays a large role in supporting this bread and keeping it from collapsing.

9) Remove bread from oven, invert the pan and rest the handles on two tin cans. Let it cool completely. The upside down position will keep the bread from collapsing, just as one does with an angel food cake.

10) When cool, I like to slice the loaf down. Use a sharp serrated knife, and let the sawing motion do the work. Don't press down too much, because this is still a very delicate bread and you can crush it. Slicing also aids in the drying out process. When very fresh, this bread is almost too moist. It you let it sit in a plastic bag in the fridge a few days, I think its texture is much more user friendly.

11) This bread is absolutely best when toasted. By crisping up the surface of the slice, the bread is firmed up even more.

IF YOU LIKE THIS AND WANT TO DO IT OFTEN: Mix up your dry ingredients in bulk. I put together enough for four loaves at a time, and then use 1/4 of the mixture added to the wet ingredients. Makes for a much faster and more convenient process. 1/4 of the mixture, by the way, is just a smidge over 6 ounces by weight. I don't know what it ends up to be by volume. Weight is a much more accurate way of measuring it.

And that is Udi Bread about as close as you can come to buying it at the store.

Good luck to all.

[dbmontana]

I'm new to this forum but I've been watching this thread and have learned a ton so I thought I would share what I've discovered along the way. I do live at somewhat high altitude (3500 ft)so maybe that changes things a litte, I don't know. Anyway I, like many of you, have baked so many loaves of gluten free bread trying to reach the holy grail that is Udi's and so many loaves ended up as bird food or bread crumbs for meatballs. Yet, not all was failure. I have beaten the egg whites stiff, not beaten the egg whites stiff, used egg white powder, played with the ratios of other ingredients, used different size pans, played with rising time and oven temperature, and, well, you get the idea.

Some different things I have tried are adding a teeny bit of probiotic or digestive enzyme (amylase specifically) to aid in the breakdown of the starches and using only 2 egg whites (not beaten). I know the probiotic addition is a little weird but I was trying to think what sort of enzymes Udi's was using and I had a bottle of enzymes at home and thought it couldn't hurt. I also beat the batter with a hand mixer (with dough hook attachments) for roughly 5 minutes but I think I may do less to get bigger holes. Still I do get pretty good result. I think the probiotic/enzymes really help.

Also, I have found that once your dough shows fissures on top like it is cracking open, then your dough has risen too high. I have kind of given up on the egg white powder idea as it never resulted in a very good loaf for me but maybe I was doing it wrong. It is quite expensive too. Yet, I can't see Udi's cracking hundreds of eggs just to get the whites and throwing away all those yolks, so it makes sense.

Another thing I have considered is that Udi's uses tapioca maltodextrin. If you guy's google that you will find that it essentially turns fats into powder making a denser loaf lighter. Since many of us don't have this in our pantry it is somewhat unrealistic hence, we are going to have a heavier loaf no matter what we do. I can't think of anything else that does the same thing. I think you can buy that stuff on Amazon but it seems kinda weird to me and processed. Kinda scary to think about what chemical reaction needs to occur for that to happen.

Ok, last thing I promise. If you all haven't dabbled in gluten free sourdough, you should. I have made some nice baguettes this way and different artisan bread that are light and airy with nice big holes. I typically us 1-1/2 C. brown rice flour or sorghum, 1 C. water, 2-1/4 tsp yeast (not quick) and a teaspoon or so of sugar. Mix it in a large plastic bin of some kind that can hold at least 5-6 cups of liquid. Stir it up and allow it to sit overnight with loosely fitted lid so air can escape. You should have a nice sponge by morning. Sometimes I substitute some of the liquid in a recipe with a little starter and it gives my loaves a better rise and richer flavor. I don't usually let my starter sit past 24 hours as I don't care for the tanginess.

Well, that is my two cents and sorry for the long reply. Happy baking!

[larry mac]

Great going on the sponge idea. I've always loved sourdough, way before it was widely available and I had to go to great lengths to aquire it.

I tried adapting some real sourdough culture to gluten-free flours a few years ago, without success. I may give it another shot though, after recently reading where some gluten-free food scientists believe sourdough is the key to quality gluten-free bread. The trick they say, is that each alternative flour needs it's own very specific sourdough/yeast culture in order to achieve maximum performance.

Way back when, I ordered a variety of dried sourdough cultures from a mail order company to play around with. They were natural wild yeasts from countries all over the world. I never really got anything out of it that was as good as the California sourdough products with the great flavor and crusts. But I'm wondering, now with the internet it should be easy to find stuff like that. Maybe even the exact same cultures these food chemists are using.

I gave up on making gluten-free bread three years ago. But I'm getting kind of excited again.

best regards, lm

[dbmontana]

LM,

I don't want to get you too excited but I have been making gluten free sourdough bread very nicely for a few months just using plain ole' yeast you can buy at the store (gluten free of course). I get nice results and fantastic rise almost every time. I usually use a sponge, which is the yeast, water and flour allowed to sit for 4-16 hours. To get a true sourdough taste you need to allow this to sit for days or even weeks either at room temp, feeding it approx 2 times a day, or in the fridge feeding it every few days or so. I think the success behind sourdough and gluten free baking is that the flours have time to absorb and the yeast has time to break down the starches which I think helps give a better rise and texture.

From my understanding there are different types of starter and I am currently experimenting with each. There is the biga, which has less hydration (less water added) and is much thicker. Then there is the poolish, which is a higher hydrations and much runnier. I have been making a biga with brown rice flour (as this flour tends to absorb a lot of water naturally) and poolish with sorghum (which doesn't absorb as much water). I have found the biga works great with baguettes and bread and the poolish has worked great in cinnamon rolls.

If you want to see my results you can go to www.bitterrootbakery.com. I'm not a true bakery on nothing, I just sell things at my local farmers market for extra income. I post all my results on there so you can see what is possible with sourdough. I don't post all the disasters that end up in the garbage or as croutons though Realistically, I probably have 10 failures before I get one right, or at least closer to what I'm looking for.

If you try it let me know how it works for you!

[mushroom]

I couldnl't get your posted url to bring up your blog

[dbmontana]

There is a link on my profile page.

Oh, I forgot to mention another site I have found really helpful. Redstar yeast's website at Open Original Shared Link, has a ton of gluten free recipes and I have tried a few with amazing result. Nothing like Udi's but very good anyway. I especially like the black Russian bread. That one didn't get stale for 6 days, and I live in a VERY dry climate. I've also tried the Favorite gluten-free bread and that one was very nice too. This is the site I got the recipe for sourdough starter. They also have sourdough recipes which are pretty nice.

So there it is. If these links don't show up right I will try it another way. Thanks for your patience

[larry mac]

dbmontana,

Your website is amazing! Those are some really beautiful gluten-free breads. I tried to make baguettes and they were a dismal failure. You should be an inspiration to us all. Thanks for posting.

best regards, lm

[dbmontana]

dbmontana,

Your website is amazing! Those are some really beautiful gluten-free breads. I tried to make baguettes and they were a dismal failure. You should be an inspiration to us all. Thanks for posting.

best regards, lm

Thanks lm,

Sorry to hear your baguettes didn't turn out. I will try to post a sourdough recipe on my blog soon. I'm still experimenting but I sure would like to make some sourdough pancakes some morning. Don't feel frustrated though. Like I said, I typically throw away 10 bad ones to every 1 that turns out. It is just trial and error. I don't post a ton of bread recipes because it seems that they never turn out for people at lower elevations. It is hard to believe elevation can play such a role in bread but it seems it does. I need to figure out how people can convert recipes so it turns out for them. I've given some friends in Oregon some recipes once and nothing turned out for them. They thought I was just blowing smoke that I could make gluten free stuff turn out edible

The link is on my profile page.

I was going to post another link to the Red Star Yeast website as they have sourdough recipes and other gluten free recipes that have turned out pretty good in my experience. Maybe give that a shot. Especially the Black Russian Bread. It isn't sourdough but it is very tasty and it stayed fresh for 6 days at room temp.

-H

[dbmontana]

I couldnl't get your posted url to bring up your blog

I just noticed you are a moderator I tried to post it again but it never showed up. It is a little confusing how one is supposed to post a link. When you click the "link" icon it brings up http//, should I add the www too or just the http// or something else? I just figured my second attempt didn't post because I wasn't supposed to give personal blog links Sorry for any confusion.

-dbmontana

[mushroom]

I just noticed you are a moderator I tried to post it again but it never showed up. It is a little confusing how one is supposed to post a link. When you click the "link" icon it brings up http//, should I add the www too or just the http// or something else? I just figured my second attempt didn't post because I wasn't supposed to give personal blog links Sorry for any confusion.

-dbmontana

It's working now

[larry mac]

Here's an interesting study that I'm sure everyone's seen, but just in case. I've contacted Culture for Life, a company that sells a variety of starter cultures, inquiring if they have any of these starters.

best regards, lm

‘Novel and competitive’ starter cultures identified for gluten-free sourdoughs

Open Original Shared Link

[Krystyn41]

I tried to make Udi's bread in a breadmaker..but hey! It turned out good anyway!

[love2travel]

I tried to make Udi's bread in a breadmaker..but hey! It turned out good anyway!

How awesome is that? I am itching to try it and will report back. Thanks!

Does it pass the Spread-the-Creamed-Honey Test?

[julice]

I've crossed referenced 9 rice bread recipe and made over 20 failed loaves before getting really close UDI. Here's the ingredients for my near perfect loaf, so no one has to go through too much trial and error...

Dry Ingredients:

2-1/2 c. rice flour

2/3 c. corn starch

2/3 c. non-fat dry milk (optional)

1 T. xanthan gum

1-1/4 t. salt

Wet Ingredients:

1-1/2 c. warm water

2 T. sugar

2 T. vegetable oil

2-1/4 t. instant/rapid rise yeast

1 t. apple cider vinegar

2 egg whites (optional, produces a larger loaf)

1) Whisk together dry ingredients in a medium bowl. Whisk together all wet ingredients, except the eggs, in a small bowl. Whisk the egg whites together in a separate small bowl. Stir wet ingredients in with the dry dry ingredients until combined (about 18 minutes). Let dough rise (about 1 hour). Bake as you would a normal loaf of wheat bread. Freeze leftover bread.

[chrisrowe]

I was going to try the recipe that dcrehr posted however I think there's a mistake. I've posted the ingredient list below. Shouldn't there be way more flour. I'm thinking it should be 1 1/2 cups or 2 1/2 cups of tapioca. Has anyone tried this recipe as is? Did it work?

 

"UDI" Whole Grain Bread

DRY INGREDIENTS:

1/2 Cup Tapioca Flour/Starch
1/4 cup + 1/2 tablespoon Brown Rice Flour
3 tablespoons Potato Starch
1-1/2 tablespoons sugar
3 tablespoons Flax Seed Meal
1 teaspoon Xanthan gum
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon baking powder

WET INGREDIENTS:

1-1/2 tablespoons vegetable oil
3 egg whites extra large
1 teaspoon apple cider vinegar
3/8 cup water

IN ADDITION TO THE ABOVE:

1 teaspoon dry yeast
1 teaspoon sugar
mixed with 3 tablespoons warm water