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Dangerous Grains...
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Someone here mentioned a book called Dangerous Grains. I was looking at bits of it and reviews on Amazon, and it looked really good. Has anyone read it? I've been considering putting my whole family on a gluten-free diet as a result of all this info coming at me about how gluten grains aren't good for anyone. Is this a fact, or do you think it's the hype that goes along with any diagnosis of a disease? You know, when you start seeing Celiac Disease in ALLLLL of your friends, family and acquaintences.

A lot of the literature I'M focussing on has to do with how bad gluten is for a person...and not just Celiacs...EVERYONE. But if I was steeping my brain in literature about the benefits of a whole grain diet, I'd be going in a completely different direction. Can someone out there help me balance my thoughts on the subject???? Or are there folks out there who totally believe there's a definitive point being made for the total removal of gluten for all? Help. Hard core opinions welcomed.

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I agree that gluten is hard to digest for all people, not just celiacs, but because wheat is so much cheaper, it is still widley used. If you want to do whole grain and gluten-free you can still do that just use healthier flours and not the starchy ones.

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I know what you mean!I'm a celiac spotter too!

But on a serious note,I'm in a similar position to you.

My husband was dx with celiac disease 9 months ago.One of my son's has had borderline blood results(constant bowel symptoms),more tests being done.I've put my youngest on a gluten-free diet to see if it will help with dyslexia/behavioural problems(doc won't test him as he doesn't have bowel symptoms)-so I'm thinking maybe it would be easier if we were all gluten-free.(slight problem with the eldest at 15yrs,doesn't want to give up his gluten fixes!)

I agree with your comments about 'whole grain'.Here in the uk we are bombarded with advertisements telling us to eat'wholegrain' cereals and bread as this can help prevent heart disease.'Give your child wholegrain as it's healthiest'

Hmmm,I'm confused what to do for the best....

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I think we have to be careful about putting our diet as a cure all health problem. My husbands whole family are serious grain eaters, including him and none have cronic problems of any kind. What is super good for us, may not be super good for all. Each and everyone of us are different as we well know with the variety of symptoms, lets not tell anyone else what is good for them unless we truly know. It could be the old saying ... "If it aint broke, don't fix it" :rolleyes:

Just my thoughts.

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I bought "Going Against The Grain" last night and have been reading some very interesting stuff. Specifically the "20 year rule" observed by a certain scientist (don't recall his name off hand) but he noticed that in societies that didn't have grains as a food all went through 20 years of seemingly no problem when grain was introduced, then started having problems like shorter stature, heart disease, diabetes, etc etc etc. There were also examples of cultures that totally depended on one grain that was actually deficient in a certain vitamin or consumption of that grain further depleted that vitamin from their bodies and large amounts of those cultures started having diseases that are common with that particular deficiency. One, for example, was Japan, and eating white rice which became common early in the 20th century. This depleted them of vitamin B1 which led to epidemics of a disease called beriberi.

Anyway, I have only gotten started reading but think it's a very interesting book, doesn't seem to be over the top in presentation (no hysterical - must stop eating grains now!!! kind of attitude). Something to think about.

I'm considering dropping all grains from my diet now as I was pretty low grain before going gluten free, though still ate some. Since going gluten free, a lot of symptoms got better but lately some have gotten worse, especially blood sugar control for me and hormones. I have been eating more rice and corn than I have in 4 years. So I'm thinking for me it's better to stick with protein/veggies/fruits/dairy. We'll see...

Stephanie

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Wheat, unlike rice, oats, potato, etc. cannot be fully digested. About 10% cannot be. It was introduced to our diet long after our digestive systems had developed and therefore, isn't good for anyone. That's a little snippet, but you'll obviously find more in a book like Dangerous Grains, where they actually have precise statistics and more of them.

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The North American culture is centered around wheat. It's in everything. I am very interested in studies that look at the incidence of disease in our culture and other cultures.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that wheat originated in the middle eastern region about 9.000 years ago... I'm wondering if maybe celiac disease developed at the same time wheat was discovered. It appears that celiac disease is higher in people that originated from the middle eastern region. Specifically, I mean celiac is more common in people from Africa/Europe/North America than Japan/China/Thailand. I'm guessing celiac disease is a "hint" that our bodies don't like gluten since it is more common in people that eat a lot gluten and whose ancesters also ate a lot gluten.

I don't know... I'm just rambling now.

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Wheat became a common staple food because it can be stored for very long periods of time. It used to be used primarily when other foods were not available. It became a big part of European and later North American diets because it can be grown cheaply and in large quantities. Because gluten is what makes wheat flour stick together it can be manipulated in an infinite variety of ways.

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I'm a huge fan of the "Dangerous Grains" book. I think that everyone who is newly diagnosed should have a copy. It is very thorough & well documented, with approximately 27 pages of references, most from peer-reviewed journals.

The book "Going Against the Grain" that skbird noted is also really good. It is more focused on the benefits/disadvantages of grain in the diet where the book "Dangerous Grains" deals more with the medical aspects of those with gluten intolerance.

If you are looking for a book to support a no grain diet, I think a good one is "PaleoDiet" by Loren Cordain. You could also check out their website: http://www.thepaleodiet.com/

There is a particularly interesting section dealing with grains on the FAQ page:

Fiber, Cereals, and Grains

Aren't whole grains good sources of fiber, minerals, and B vitamins? How can I get these nutrients if I cut down or eliminate grains from my diet?

On a calorie-by-calorie basis, whole grains are lousy sources of fiber, minerals, and B vitamins when compared to the lean meats, seafood, and fresh fruit and veggies that dominate The Paleo Diet. For example, a 1,000-calorie serving of fresh fruits and vegetables has between two and seven times as much fiber as does a comparable serving of whole grains. In fruits and veggies most of the fiber is heart-healthy, soluble fiber that lowers cholesterol levels -- the same cannot be said for the insoluble fiber that is predominant in most whole grains. A 1,000-calorie serving of whole grain cereal contains 15 times less calcium, three times less magnesium, 12 times less potassium, six times less iron, and two times less copper than a comparable serving of fresh vegetables. Moreover, whole grains contain a substance called phytate that almost entirely prevents the absorption of any calcium, iron, or zinc that is found in whole grains, whereas the type of iron, zinc, and copper found in lean meats and seafood is in a form that is highly absorbed.

Compared to fruits and veggies, cereal grains are B-vitamin lightweights. An average 1,000 serving of mixed vegetables contain 19 times more folate, five times more vitamin B6, six times more vitamin B2 and two times more vitamin B1 than a comparable serving of eight mixed whole grains. On a calorie-by-calorie basis, the niacin content of lean meat and seafood is four times greater than that found in whole grains.

Anyway - these books have helped me to understand that some of us - in fact, probably most of us, are better off without grains in our diet. The book "Going Against the Grain" discusses "whole grains" vs "refined grains" (if I remember correctly) if you are wondering about those health benefits - but, like I noted above - grains provide minimal nutritional value when compared to fruits, vegetables, and meats.

They are still mighty tasty though and I'm not a full convert yet ;) I have noticed though that on days when I eat no grains I feel about a thousand times better than on days when I do eat grains (even the gluten-free ones!). So... perhaps someday I'll be a full fledged paleo-dieter ;) Who knows. I do know that I would feel better if I followed that diet, but in our society it's simply not an easy thing to do. Plus, I'm still new to being gluten-free! One step at a time ;)

Best wishes! I hope you find what works best for you :)

- Michelle :wub:

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Thanks for the input/suggestions. I'm still not sure if I should remove all grains from my family's diet. I've got to go get those two books you all mentioned here. I guess my problem is, if grains are bad, why would I continue to consume them or allow my family to consume them? Out of convenience? I don't think so. So, I'm trying to establish whether or not a gluten/casien containing diet is so bad that I should make the choice to change it to a gluten free/casein free diet. I want the definitive answer to that question. :blink:

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If you remove nothing else from your family diet - I would remove casein. If you want to learn about how unbelievably dangerous this is, look at the book "The China Study" which is one of the most well done epidemiological studies ever performed (spanning a time period over 20 years).

I don't have the book with me now, but I'll post more information on it later. I highly recommend this book - with a note. It speaks of dangers of animal based proteins but then seems to do most of the studies on casein (as the animal based protein). So, the book promotes a vegan diet when it should really be promoting a milk-free diet. I could be forgetting things - but the studies that most stuck out in my mind are those that were done with casein.

Anyway - I could post a ton of articles / pages on the dangers of milk. Let me know if you want them!

- Michelle :wub:

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:D Yes. I want them! I'm going to go to the book store today.... I know no one in my "real life" who shares my facination with diet and health. I love talking with people who carry on a conversation I'm interested in to areas I didn't know existed when I began yapping. It's so fun here.
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Anyway - I could post a ton of articles / pages on the dangers of milk. Let me know if you want them!

I am very interested in this and would love some info! Thanks B)

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I have not read Dangerous Grains. Question: how much of it is directly related to celiac and how much of it is...just about how bad grains are in general or how they are bad for people with other conditions?

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Michelle-

I too am curious about some of the info you have on milk...

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Okay, here are some links:

http://libaware.economads.com/milkletter.php

http://www.drjaygordon.com/links/cowsmilk.htm

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/dairy.html

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/milk.html

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/lactose_intolerance.html

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_form...03-No2-Milk.cfm (This one isn't real professional looking - nor does it have much in the way of references, but it's interesting)

http://www.4.waisays.com/ (This one links excessive calcium to osteoporosis - but if you pay attention, it's actually linking excessive milk consumption - and not listing any other calcium sources as problematic - like vegetables, nuts, etc. - You've got to be paying attention when you read this stuff ;))

Okay, that's probably enough for now! I can also send information from the vast compendium of nutritional books I've collected ;) There's a lot out there that shows how milk is *not* a good thing!

One thing to remember is that the dietary guidlines in the US are really (sadly) highly influenced by the dairy industry. It's actually the dairy industry that provides most of the funding for the nutritional materials handed out in schools for kids. I could get you info on this too if you don't believe me! It's really scary & sad. I hate to sound like an extremist here - but seriously, the dairy industry is more concerned with profits than the health of the people they derive those profits from.

Catch you later!

- Michelle :wub:

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Ugh. I just pulled out my China Study book and was going to copy some information but... there's too much! Try and find this book at your library or order it online. There are 44 pages of references (peer reviewed journals) alone. The book is over 400 pages.

Let me just say that there are high correlations between areas of high milk consumption and: diabetes, multiple sclerosis, osteoporosis, breast cancer, heart disease, and others.

I just noticed that there are correlations in this book to meat - which I didn't say much of before, but *most* of the studies are done using casein as the animal protein.

I'll see if I can find anything shorter! Sorry, don't really feel like typing out 60 pages right now! Please forgive!

- Michelle :wub:

P.S. Here is a link to this book on Amazon: http://www.amazon .com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846 Note that it is a huge success among vegans but also note that this book is *very* scientific and well documented - not an extremist book at all. This is not a book put out by PETA - like so many of the other vegan books seem to be! :P

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Hey, we are way off topic here! I'm going to move some of this information to a new post "Research on Problems with Dairy" - please post anything else you have regarding milk/dairy there :)

I think we should make this info available to people who wouldn't otherwise look under the "Dangerous Grains" topic. :)

- Michelle :wub:

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http://www.truefoodsmarket.com/almilor32ozb.html

I got lost following links Bean posted and eventually ended up looking at a brand of Almond Milk....thinking of replacing my milk. Anyway, this product says gluten free but lists barley malt in the ingreds. There's no such thing as gluten-free barley malt is there? I wouldn't have asked this 2 weeks ago, but since posting here I've learned many things such as Modified Food Starch can be gluten-free...

About all the links Bean posted...I'm off to read more!

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I have not read Dangerous Grains.  Question: how much of it is directly related to celiac and how much of it is...just about how bad grains are in general or how they are bad for people with other conditions?

Dangerous Grains is primarily about the health problems for those with Celiac Disease and gluten allergies /sensitivity. However, the first chapter in the book is called "Grains and People: An Evolutionary Mismatch" so it does go so far as to suggest that humans should not be eating grains. The primary thought here is that we have not evolved to eat grains, and that grain consumption has had "many negative genetic health impacts"

Here is the amazon link to Dangerous Grains - you will probably find more info there than from me (with reviews, table of contents, etc.):

http://www.amazon .com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...KX0DER&st=books

If you are looking for a book with no-grain dietary plans, get the "Going Against the Grain" book. This book talks more about the benefits of a diet without grain, where the "Dangerous Grains" book discusses the health problems that occur when people with intolerance eat grains.

Hope that helps! :)

- Michelle :wub:

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http://www.truefoodsmarket.com/almilor32ozb.html

I got lost following links Bean posted and eventually ended up looking at a brand of Almond Milk....thinking of replacing my milk. Anyway, this product says gluten free but lists barley malt in the ingreds. There's no such thing as gluten-free barley malt is there? I wouldn't have asked this 2 weeks ago, but since posting here I've learned many things such as Modified Food Starch can be gluten-free...

About all the links Bean posted...I'm off to read more!

Malt is, in very rare cases, gluten-free. Barley malt, however, is never gluten-free.

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http://www.truefoodsmarket.com/almilor32ozb.html

I got lost following links Bean posted and eventually ended up looking at a brand of Almond Milk....thinking of replacing my milk. Anyway, this product says gluten free but lists barley malt in the ingreds. There's no such thing as gluten-free barley malt is there? I wouldn't have asked this 2 weeks ago, but since posting here I've learned many things such as Modified Food Starch can be gluten-free...

Whoa! I just checked this out - because I drink a lot of the Pacific Foods Almond milk (and love it! :))

I think that the site that you referenced must be messed up. I went to the Pacific Foods site (http://www.pacificfoods.com/products-nut-grain.php) and found the following information:

The ingredients listed on the almond milk *there* are:

Ingredients

ALMOND BASE (FILTERED WATER, ALMONDS), BROWN RICE SWEETENER (FILTERED WATER, BROWN RICE), NATURAL FLAVORS, TRICALCIUM PHOSPHATE, SEA SALT, GINGER, GUAR GUM, XANTHAN GUM, CARRAGEENAN, CAROB BEAN GUM, RIBOFLAVIN (B2), VITAMIN A PALMITATE, VITAMIN D2.

No barley malt! And it does say "Gluten Free" on the label. True foods market must have screwed up.

BTW - Pacific Foods has the *best* almond milk, IMHO ;) They also have an "Ultra Soy" drink that is super tasty and has 10 grams of protein per cup :) If you mix the vanilla flavor with glutamine it tastes like vanilla ice cream! :o And *everyone* should be taking glutamine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Someday I'm actually going to do one crazy post on the virtues of glutamine! Hopefullly soon!)

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Thanks for much, I know that everyone has varying opinions on milk, but I don't think it is necessary for our bodies. Actually it makes a lot of people sick. I think we can get our calcium and vitamin D from supplements or other sourses like veggies and fish.

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http://www.truefoodsmarket.com/almilor32ozb.html

I got lost following links Bean posted and eventually ended up looking at a brand of Almond Milk....thinking of replacing my milk.  Anyway, this product says gluten free but lists barley malt in the ingreds.  There's no such thing as gluten-free barley malt is there?  I wouldn't have asked this 2 weeks ago, but since posting here I've learned many things such as Modified Food Starch can be gluten-free... 

BTW - I sent them this email & got the following reply:

Thank you.

Customer Service

orders@globalmart.com

---------- Original Message -----------

From: "Michelle Larsen" <>

To: <support@truefoodsmarket.com>

Sent: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:37:31 -0600

Subject: Pacific Foods Almond Milk

> This product is gluten free and you have listed the wrong

> ingredients for it on your site! The actual ingredients are

>

> Ingredients

> ALMOND BASE (FILTERED WATER, ALMONDS), BROWN RICE SWEETENER

> (FILTERED WATER, BROWN RICE), NATURAL FLAVORS, TRICALCIUM PHOSPHATE,

> SEA SALT, GINGER, GUAR GUM, XANTHAN GUM, CARRAGEENAN, CAROB BEAN GUM,

> RIBOFLAVIN (B2), VITAMIN A PALMITATE, VITAMIN D2.

>

> This was taken from the Pacific Foods website. What you have listed

> on your site includes barley malt - which is NOT gluten free! You

> should fix this!

>

> Thanks,

> Michelle Larsen

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