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Romans, Chapter 14 (from The Bible)


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#1 celiac3270

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 05:46 AM

I know very little about the Bible, but this passage seems to defend our right to a gluten-free communion. Look at 14... "But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean" (i.e. wheat, rye, barley). I am not trying to offend anyone, not trying to spark more sharp disagreement. I understand that the Catholic Church has adopted its own doctrine and has no theoretical obligation to change this. I'm just saying that if we interpret this passage, it seems to defend our choice in food. Thought it was interesting:

Romans, chapter 14

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.
15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.
16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

This seems to say: no food is bad or unclean, but if someone thinks it is (i.e. through an allergy or intolerance) then for that person it isn't okay. Then at the end, it says that God and piety doesn't revolve around eating or drinking, but about who you are as a person. And that even if you aren't eating gluten or a gluten-containing Communion, if you're being a good person, that's all that matters.
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#2 Guest_gfinnebraska_*

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 05:52 AM

This passage refers back to the eating of "clean" and "unclean" animals in the Old Testament, under the "old law"... but, hey, if it will work to help Catholics... go for it! :)
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#3 jenvan

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 05:57 AM

I especially love verse 17...
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#4 celiac3270

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 05:58 AM

This passage refers back to the eating of "clean" and "unclean" animals in the Old Testament, under the "old law"...

Oh, shucks. I knew there must be a catch.... <_<

I especially love verse 17...

Me, too ;)

Edited by Coulter, 16 June 2005 - 06:00 AM.

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#5 Carriefaith

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 06:10 AM

Good work celiac3270! and great topic.

I personally don't think that God would want us to damage ourselves by eating gluten bread at communion. I believe that it does say somewhere in the bible not to hurt your body. The whole purpose of communion is to take the bread and wine/grapejuice as a symbol of the body and blood to remember that Jesus died for our sins so that we could have eternal life. I personally don't think God cares if the bread we take as a symbol has gluten or not. I mean we don't actually drink the actual blood or eat the actual body right? We drink wine or grape juice and eat bread as a symbol.
Just my two cents :D
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#6 Jnkmnky

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 06:54 AM

Thanks! This is what I told a group of moms just the other day when we were discussing communion. Now I can print out what you took the time to post! ;)
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#7 KaitiUSA

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 06:58 AM

Good work celiac3270! and great topic.

I personally don't think that God would want us to damage ourselves by eating gluten bread at communion. I believe that it does say somewhere in the bible not to hurt your body. The whole purpose of communion is to take the bread and wine/grapejuice as a symbol of the body and blood to remember that Jesus died for our sins so that we could have eternal life. I personally don't think God cares if the bread we take as a symbol has gluten or not. I mean we don't actually drink the actual blood or eat the actual body right? We drink wine or grape juice and eat bread as a symbol.
Just my two cents :D

I ditto that!

Thanks for posting this celiac3270
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Kaiti
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#8 Jnkmnky

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 07:44 AM

Just want to say....without wanting to start any awkward controvery.... :) , that Catholics actually do believe that the bread and wine do, infact, become the body and blood of Jesus. I know, I know...then why does the gluten matter...It's all part of the "mystery", I guess! ;) In my experience, God's shown himself to be a rather ironic and humorous entitiy. :blink:
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#9 KaitiUSA

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 09:23 AM

I have a question then:

If Catholics believe that it is truly transformed to the body and blood of Christ then why can't a wafer made of rice be transformed to the body and blood of Christ too? Why does it have to be that particular ingredient? Christ did not command that it must have a certain ingredient. He did NOT say take this wheat bread in remembrance of me. I don't think He would even want you to take something that would make you sick.

Theres a verse in the Bible where it says people look on the outside but God looks at the heart...I think that applies with this because it doesn't matter what you can and can't have or anything like that. God knows the condition of the heart and I think that should be the meaning of communion. I don't think that the ingredient of what you take should overshadow that meaning.

I know people who get reactions because they take communion...and I know some people who take communion with rice wafers even if its rejected. God doesn't reject it....we live for an audience of one and that one person is God.

That's the thing that seems to confuse me..I understand it is tradition and know that tradition will not be changed...I am just trying to understand the logic of it so I hope none of you take offense because thats not my objective.
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Jeremiah 29:11- "For I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for you to prosper and not harm you,plans to give you a hope and future"

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#10 Guest_gfinnebraska_*

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 09:59 AM

I agree 100% Carriefaith & Kaiti ~ :)
I know, for me, I just take the "grape juice" during communion. I know God understands why I don't take the bread 1/2 of the ceremony. That is the final line, for me. Did God give me celiac? No. Does He understand my limitations? YES! :) That is called grace...
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#11 Carriefaith

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 10:00 AM

I know people who get reactions because they take communion


I've heard of someone who got put in the hospital because the gluten they ingested at each communion made them very sick.

I am not Catholoc, but I think that they believe that the bread must be unleavened, meaning that it has to contain wheat. That is why there is so many issues with celiacs that are catholic.
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#12 Jnkmnky

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 10:39 AM

I realize other branches of the Christian faith view the communion host and wine as a symbol of the body and blood of Christ. Catholics believe that the host and the wine actually DO become the body and blood of Christ. SOOOOO, I am Catholic and I DO believe that the communion host and wine are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus (a little cannabalism with your religion, anyone??) ;) Ha-ha..just kidding! Ok. Seriously, I think that sometimes the guys in charge get a little hung up on tradition and lose sight of the purpose. As I recall from my bible reading and years of church attendence, Jesus did NOT hand down a recipe for the bread we were to use. He handed down the commandment to "do this in memory of me"..... I think you can safely imply from that, that we can do this in memory of him with a wheat cracker, a rice cracker or even a potato chip if that's ALL you have handy.

There are many mysteries tied up into this controversy, including...have the guys making these rules lost their minds?? To deny a Catholic the opportunity to partake in the most sacred part of their religion based on a supposed necessary RECIPE for the body of Christ, just blows me away. It's like persecuting your own kind due to an unseemly disability. If they weren't so nervous about admitting the gluten was still in the host when it's SUPPOSED to be transformed, then they might see that a little gluten doesn't shake the belief of the faithful who still believe it's actually transformed into Jesus's body.

I guess this is why it's so important to put your faith in God and not a bunch of humans who, no matter how hard they try, are still flawed just like the rest of us.
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#13 Guest_gfinnebraska_*

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 12:29 PM

"I guess this is why it's so important to put your faith in God and not a bunch of humans who, no matter how hard they try, are still flawed just like the rest of us. "

Well said!! :lol:
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#14 VydorScope

 
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 01:14 PM

The problem with using this in the Catholic Church is they do not hold up the Bible the same way the Prostants do. Protestants maintain that the Bible is the final and complete authority. Catholics believe that the Bible by itself is insufficient, and that tradition and the teaching authority of the church must be added to the Bible.

This is not the place for me to argue why I extremly disagree with the Catholic Church on this, just place to point out why the above passage is not sufficent to convice the Catholic Church of anything. Since the Catholic Chuch teaches that the bread must contian wheat, then for them thats the same as if it was stated that way in the Bible.

As far as my studies tell me, theres no reason at all the "bread" has to have wheat in it. The important fact here is your are NOT saved by comunine, its a response to being saved. Theres a big differnce there, and those here that take a non-wheat comunine need to understand that, and not worry about what the world says. Salvation is by faith alone, not works or cermony.
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 02:37 PM

I have a cousin with Celiac's who is very religious. When she goes to church, she informs the priest of her condition and he allows her to sip from the cup of wine BEFORE anyone else does (so she doesn't get contaminated). She almost became a nun and this seems sufficient for her. She also believes that God wouldn't want her to eat anything that might hurt her. I don't believe in that kind of a God either. Your body is a temple.
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