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Antibiotics Stopping The Symptoms - Have You Experienced This?


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#16 chasbari

 
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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:16 PM

I am having a hard time letting this go. The little girl they cited in the Microbiome article had, for all intents and purposes, a gut flora transplant. It seems they inadvertently cleared the way, much like a bone marrow transplant is prepped by destroying or sterilizing the bone of the faulty marrow. In this case the antibiotics they were using may have created a clean slate. The human fecal matter they used was really a gut flora transplant. Since this can be considered to work like an independent organ it was like she received an organ transplant of sorts. I would be curious if the prepping would be necessary in all cases or if the gut flora could be re-established to a healthy functional level without needing the antibiotics. Antibiotics very much triggered my episode that began the real downhill slide and later on a course of antibiotics gave me relief for a few days. Since there was no follow up with probiotics (of limited effectiveness now that I am taking them anyway) I was back to square one or worse once the antibiotic was done and the damaged gut flora was just that much more out of whack. I would be willing to have them try a gut flora transplant on me. I am looking into other methods as well. I have been trying to add in foods that naturally promote this to little success and wonder. It seems to me that an intact gut flora should, in the healthy individual, be self sustaining. I wonder how much a role the damage to this plays in a myriad of conditions that are becoming more prevalent.
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#17 catarific

 
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Posted 10 April 2011 - 03:57 AM

After posting this question, I have been doing some research on SIBO (Small Intestine Bacteria Overgrowth) and came up with three very interesting links I am going to share.

If you think you may have SIBO, you should see a doctor who can prescribe the correct antibioics for you. SIBO is confirmed by a hydrogen breath test. I have an appointment with my doctor in two weeks and hopefully he can help me with this. But, in the meantime, I have done my research and this is what I found:

Symptoms:

•excess gas,
•abdominal bloating and distension,
•diarrhea, and
•abdominal pain

A small number of patients with SIBO have chronic constipation rather than diarrhea. When the overgrowth is severe and prolonged, the bacteria may interfere with the digestion and/or absorption of food and deficiencies of vitamins and minerals may develop. Weight loss also may occur. Patients with SIBO sometimes also report symptoms that are unrelated to the gastrointestinal tract, symptoms such as body aches or fatigue. The symptoms of SIBO tend to be chronic. A typical patient with SIBO can experience symptoms that fluctuate in intensity over months, years, or even decades before the diagnosis is made.

The interesting part of this is the dietary approach to what foods to avoid and what foods are good to eat.
This is where we get into the Low-Fodmap Diet. On this diet, gluten free cereals and gluten free bread are advocated. Also limiting dairy and fruits with excess fructose is part of this diet as well. And most artificial sweetners are a no no.

The links describing the diet are here:
http://thefoodielist...-ibs-sufferers/
http://www.gidoctor....et-ibs-sibo.php

And a great little chart outlining the foods to avoid and those to eat can be found here:
http://www.healthyfo...rances-0310.pdf

There does seem to be a definite link with gluten free diet and eliminating the symptoms of SIBO.
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#18 a1956chill

 
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Posted 10 April 2011 - 04:18 AM

WOW is all I can say,,, it may take me awhile to digest (pun intended :) ) all of this ., seems the more I learn the less I know :unsure:
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Gluten free Oct/09
Soy free Nov/10

numerous additional intolerances,, i.e. If it tries to kill me I do not eat it .
After 40+ years of misdiagnoses I was diagnosed with:
Dermatitis Herpetiformis : Positive DH biopsy...... Celiac :based on DH biopsy and diet response.

Osteoporosis before  age 50
Hashimoto's thyroiditis disease .

Diagnosed type 2 Diabetes 

Osteoarthritis

Gilbert's Syndrome , confirmed by gene testing


#19 chasbari

 
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Posted 10 April 2011 - 07:36 AM

I have been reading up on the specific carbohydrate diet approach to all of this and recommend the book "Breaking the Vicious Cycle: Intestinal Health through Diet" by Elaine Gottschall. There was a link in another thread to some video of her being interviewed. Interesting stuff. Basically a proponent of reestablishing a healthy gut flora through dietary means. I was close with my paleo approach and really don't have to change much in order to switch to the SCD diet. I do need to add yog(h)urt in order to accomplish full compliance but am waiting until I have a source for yogurt made from raw milk as I have some real concerns about pasteurized milk. Gottschall addresses the whole issue of SIBO as well in this but takes diet only approach to it instead of antibiotics. I am wanting to avoid them as I have had nothing but trouble over the last thirty years when taking any of them.
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#20 catarific

 
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Posted 10 April 2011 - 08:41 AM

If you are interested in Elaine Gottschall's diet - here is a link to a web site that tells you something about her book including a list of legal and illegal foods. Her diet does require you to give up a lot, though.

http://www.breakingt...illegal_a-c.htm
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#21 chasbari

 
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Posted 17 April 2011 - 01:42 PM

Antibiotic mediated gut flora dysbiosis:

A hypothesis based on anecdotal observation.

Texts influential in formative thought in this matter:
"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" Weston Price
"Breaking the Vicious Cycle: Intestinal Health through Diet" Elaine Gottschall
"Good Calories/Bad Calories" Gary Taubes
Synopsis of the Human Microbiome Project by NIH
Study of two calves done in 2010

Key facts:
Serum negative for celiac disease
reactive to soy
multiple autoimmune issues including rheumatoid arthritis, sjogren's syndrome, high lupus indicators, episodes of Reynaud's, positive response to a celiac gluten free diet in remediation of all above autoimmune disorders.
Notable trigger events all linked to episodes of antibiotic use

I started to have my first rheumatic symptoms when I was in pre-school at approximately age 5. I had a number of reactions to antibiotics. First were sulfa based antibiotics then came some penicillin antibiotics and eventually reactions to biaxin and other broad spectrum antibiotics.

I had a series of chronic bronchial infections starting in the 1980's with a respite until into the 1990's. By the time my ear nose and throat doctor was able to come up with an effective strategy to break the dependence on antibiotics his observation was that I had many symptoms of antibiotic overuse. This is when I began to have problems with Sjogren's Syndrome as well as what appeared to be thrush. His opinion was that my immune system was really out of balance due to the number of courses of antibiotics used in a relatively short time.
At no time did any doctor ever recommend prophylactic use of probiotics or yogurt to go along with antibiotic use.
My ear nose and throat doctor did put me on a very strict yeast free diet which, as it turns out, was gluten and soy light. When I followed the diet strictly I had an unprecedented stretch of good vocal function for nearly ten years where I had no respiratory ailments or missed performances. I did have the occasional arthritic flare (although I didn't know that's what it was until 2004.)
I had a history of digestive problems as well as blood sugar regulation dating back to my middle school years in the early/mid 1970's and went through a whole host of diagnostic imaging at that time although nothing was conclusive. I also had orthopedic and neurological evaluations due to neuropathic pain and was told there was nothing physically wrong and to consider counseling.
In fall of 2004 I took my first course of antibiotic in many years and immediately went into a severe rheumatic flare that led to my diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis. This flare failed to let up, even with typical medications of methatrexate and Enbrel. As these two medications only marginally reduced my gel time while causing severe dysphonia and hearing loss issues, I elected to stop taking them altogether. I did continue to get worse even with dietary measures aimed at reducing inflammatory trigger foods such as night shade vegetables such as potatoes and tomatoes.
By 2008 I was having severe mobility issues as well as difficulty with sustaining mental effort. I was developing dental complications that necessitated having a tooth extracted in an emergency. Four other teeth were causing problems and my oral surgeon was prepared to extract them as well.
In the course of our researching what might be causing all the complications my wife came across an article on celiac disease and suggested that we look into this in light of my symptoms.
I had to find a new general practitioner as my doctor had tragically passed away recently. I was calling around with a great sense of urgency but no one was taking new patients or the waiting list was months and I sensed I had little time left to find a solution to my rapidly declining health.
I met the local facilitator of the celiac support group at a local health foods market and she made a recommendation of a physician who was knowledgeable in celiac disease. I called his office immediately and they were able to see me two days later.
Initial consultations followed by testing led to endoscopic biopsy and referral to a gastroenterologist who diagnosed celiac based on villus atrophy and response to diet.
I stayed rigorously gluten free but was not successful initially as we tried to maintain a near equivalent standard western diet with gluten free replacement food. I stopped deteriorating on a daily basis but really didn't get much in the way of relief from present symptoms.
It was not until I switched to a Paleolithic based diet informed by the writing of Loren Cordain that I had true relief from the symptoms. In fact, the whole host of autoimmune complications began to clear up as I followed the paleo diet. I had a stretch of six weeks where I lived almost exclusively on meat and a few vegetables with no fruit or dairy and felt better than I ever remember.
I had a slight setback due to a family crisis and never did get back to the level of health I felt when eating such a limited diet.
Follow up testing showed I still had villus atrophy even though I only had one other known episode of gluten exposure over the course of two plus years of eating strictly gluten free.

That brings me to this point.
I was reading Elaine Gottschall's book and was struck by two comments in particular. One was her contention that there are many possible causes of villus atrophy including reactions to soy. The other was that celiac needs to be more rigorously diagnosed and not just based on response to diet restrictions.
I was curious as to her recommendation to avoid liquid milk. In light of the two calves experiment I wondered whether this might be rooted in the fact that pasteurized homogenized milk used to make yogurt and kefir is necessarily a dead food relative to the bioactivity to be found in raw milk.
Further reading of the details of the human microbiome project made me curious about the effect of antibiotic insult to the normal state of healthy gut flora. Gut flora serves to facilitate the digestion of many nutrients and vitamins. While it is true that you can digest food with a sterile gut environment it is shown that you also need thirty percent more caloric intake in the state.
I encountered a number of situations where antibiotic use triggered severe digestive problems over the years. There were episodes where this would be reversed for a short time when taking yet another course of antibiotics only to become worse when I finished the prescription.
The catastrophic reaction I had in 2004 that resulted in a cascading onslaught of more and more autoimmune complications seems to be directly coincident with taking a broad spectrum antibiotic. It was as if this was the final insult to any sense of normal gut flora function.
I have been working from the premise that I do, indeed, have celiac so it was surprising to read that Elaine Gottschall seems to think celiac is, perhaps, over diagnosed. She notes cases where celiac was cured. My guess is that what the subject actually had was not celiac. This has made me curious as to the response I have to soy. It also makes me curious as to the function, or lack thereof, of my gut flora.
When I read about the treatment of the two year old who had suffered from severe diarrhea only to be complicated by stronger and stronger antibiotics and resolved by placing healthy human fecal material (in essence, a gut flora transplant) in the digestive tract I was intrigued. In comparing the digestive tract health of the two calves a light went on. Would raw milk be a way of re-establishing proper gut flora balance and function?
Here in Ohio you cannot purchase raw milk from a farmer due to restrictions. Ultra low temperature pasteurization is a possibility but still, the process kills active microbes that might be essential for proper establishment of and support of gut flora function.
I was able to find a source for raw milk and have begun an experiment. I was concerned about the need to make it into either yogurt or kefir and was looking for suitable cultures to accomplish this with the raw milk so that I wasn't having any liquid milk per Elaine Gottschall's recommendation. The more I thought about this, though, thinking it might have more to do with the deleterious effects on the biovitality of milk as nature intended, I decided to just go with the raw milk.
Now in day four I have several observations:
Milk never tasted this good.
I have absolutely no digestive complications indicating lactose intolerance.
I am willing to attribute this to psychological factors even though I had some apprehension when starting this but.. I feel great.
My hair has gone from being chronically straw like for the last several years to being silky smooth in just four days.
Things have been healing on me that I thought never would.
My Sjogren's Syndrome has been far less problematic and my eyes are much less dry upon waking.
My response to working out has been palpable, rapid and strength is noticeably increasing.
I am have been able to put on a few pounds in the last four days.
I have not had near the hunger problems and feel satiation after meals.
I drink the milk at room temperature.

I realize that this is not scientific in any useful way but I am beginning to wonder as to whether I actually have celiac. I suppose I would need genetic testing to see whether I have the genes for celiac. I also know that I will not be inclined to ever test by gluten exposure as I have made a conscious decision to be grain free from now on anyway.
I am curious, in light of the growth of the pharmaceutical manufacture of and therefore greater exposure to antibiotics, as to whether much of what we see in deterioration of health has its initial source in insult, injury and deterioration of the gut flora to a much greater degree than most would think. I can start seeing how this could ultimately be a source/point of departure for many disease processes.
I can speculate as to the possible mechanics for how improper gut function could make someone prone to many hypersensitivities that would cause autoimmune response and a lack of homeostatic balance in the body.
I will be curious to see how this affects my blood work next month as well as bone density testing.
I hope this would make someone curious about the research possibilities as to gut flora restoration.
Another note, I wonder what impact the prepping for various imaging procedures has on the viability and sustainability of a healthy gut flora. I know that I never received any follow up care that would attend to this matter whenever I have had to take antibiotics or after prepping for and receiving various GI tests over the years. It seems rational and even logical to me that any time the gut flora is disturbed as severely as it is in all these cases that there should be a regimen to follow that is every bit as important as any other to restore/re-establish the proper functioning of the gut flora.
Funny, I was talking to a farmer about the care of pastured herds and milk production. We got to talking about probiotics. I was taking one with eight different strains of bacteria. He laughed and said his cows get at least twenty three! And they just chew on grass. Further, the Human Microbiome Project is hoping to eventually be able to identify the genetic code for as many as nine hundred of the possibly three thousand different microbial organism existent in the human gut flora. Eight starts looking like a very small number. Not only that but, who's to say that out of three thousand, those are the ones that are out of balance? What if they are actually the ones that are already overgrown? I stopped my probiotics several days before starting this experiment. Things got seemingly worse while actually feeling a bit better. I know, hard to understand but that's what was going on. Poor function is no substitute for correct function.
I am not sure how long I will be carrying this experiment on but I intend to do so for several months if at all possible. It is expensive at present but I think it will be well worth it.
Makes me want to move to Texas, though. That's one state where you can actually drive to the farm and by raw milk without having to jump through all sorts of legal loopholes.
I guess I have now officially joined the lunatic fringe. Sorry for the long read..
CS
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#22 etta694

 
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Posted 17 April 2011 - 08:52 PM

A small number of patients with SIBO have chronic constipation rather than diarrhea. When the overgrowth is severe and prolonged, the bacteria may interfere with the digestion and/or absorption of food and deficiencies of vitamins and minerals may develop. Weight loss also may occur. Patients with SIBO sometimes also report symptoms that are unrelated to the gastrointestinal tract, symptoms such as body aches or fatigue. The symptoms of SIBO tend to be chronic. A typical patient with SIBO can experience symptoms that fluctuate in intensity over months, years, or even decades before the diagnosis is made.


I am so glad you posted. This whole thread is answering or at least giving clues to my brothers life. All the antibiotics...

I am going to have to reread everything you wrote many times to digest it all.. not meant to be punny. Thanks again for taking the time to share all of this.
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Anemia and IBS through my life
2005 Joint pain, exhaustion, general feeling of not being well 2006 Beginning of testing for everything but Celiac 2008 Bloating, more muscle stiffness, feeling sicker, more exhausted-testing 'normal' 2010 March insides begin to shut down, cough that won't go away 2010 June Colonoscopy, Endoscopy, biopsy - all show no problems
Self diagnosed gluten intolerant - went gluten free. Within 3 days feeling better.
After 5 days - insides began to move
Now - feel better than I have felt for 15 years (except when I gluten myself.. which I'm good at)

#23 chasbari

 
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Posted 29 April 2011 - 06:19 AM

I am now in the third week of my whole milk/raw milk experiment. It has been quite a ride thus far. I have also been eating a quantity of coconut oil for the capryllic acid to knock down any yeast overgrowth as well. I went into a flare last week of what seems to be reminiscent of a severe viral infection I had twenty five years ago complete with rash and several other symptoms. The last time I had a flare it put me in the hospital for a week and took me the better part of six months to recover from. I didn't panic this time around because, although the physical signs were there, I felt weirdly like this was more like it was going through its death throes. I was actually feeling better while I was feeling worse if that makes any sense. It was cleared up in a matter of days and I was measurably stronger after the episode. I feel as if I have been going through this massive detox of sorts. I make sure I let the milk I drink reach room temperature and I have no digestive problems at all with it. In fact, my gut flora must be working much better. This is a better probiotic than any pills I have ever taken. My eyes just keep getting better as well as far as dryness goes. Is it all coincidence? I don't know. Is it a result of drinking full fat milk with the extra calories? I don't know. I do know that it has helped tremendously.
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#24 cassP

 
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Posted 01 May 2011 - 10:32 AM

I am now in the third week of my whole milk/raw milk experiment. It has been quite a ride thus far. I have also been eating a quantity of coconut oil for the capryllic acid to knock down any yeast overgrowth as well. I went into a flare last week of what seems to be reminiscent of a severe viral infection I had twenty five years ago complete with rash and several other symptoms. The last time I had a flare it put me in the hospital for a week and took me the better part of six months to recover from. I didn't panic this time around because, although the physical signs were there, I felt weirdly like this was more like it was going through its death throes. I was actually feeling better while I was feeling worse if that makes any sense. It was cleared up in a matter of days and I was measurably stronger after the episode. I feel as if I have been going through this massive detox of sorts. I make sure I let the milk I drink reach room temperature and I have no digestive problems at all with it. In fact, my gut flora must be working much better. This is a better probiotic than any pills I have ever taken. My eyes just keep getting better as well as far as dryness goes. Is it all coincidence? I don't know. Is it a result of drinking full fat milk with the extra calories? I don't know. I do know that it has helped tremendously.

there's capryllic acid in coconut oil?????? good God- no wonder people are finding the coconut oil to be beneficial- i love capryliic acid
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1986- Elevated Speckled ANA/no Lupus.negative Sjorgens
2008- AntiGliadin IGA/IGg~ Negative,TTG IGA/IGg~ Weak Positive, Endomysial Antibody~ Positive, IGA Deficient.
no biopsy (insurance denied)
6/2010- Enterolab Gene Test:
HLA-DQB1 Allele 1 0302
HLA-DQB1 Allele 2 0302
HLADQ 3,3 (subtype 8,8)
7/2010- 100% Gluten Free
8/2010- DH
10/2010-Hypothyroid dx-> 12/2010 Hashimoto's dx + 1/11- Graves dx :(




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