Fruit And Vegetables

[domesticactivist]

I have been participating here for almost seven years, and lurked for months before actually joining.

Shauna, the level of hyper-sensitivity to gluten that you describe is not just unusual. In all my time here, it is UNIQUE. For most of us, it is way over the top.

I don't dispute that these are true stories of your life, and I feel sorry that you have to live this way. But these experiences just do not reasonably transfer to the lives of the rest of us.

It seems that when Shauna posts this is often the response. I get that people want newbies to realize they probably don't have to be as vigilant as Shauna. However, I'd like to point out that she never claims everyone needs to be as careful. I think it's very clear that she realizes her level of sensitivity is extreme.

However, I for one am very grateful for her posts. We have uncovered problem areas because of her sensitivity, awareness, and willingness to share.

[BakingQueen]

Wow, what a great post! Well said.

Was that because a newcomer to the board posted as everyone else does, but didn't undertand the unstated caveats needed to ask a question for which she needed a super sensitive perspective?

And who would have guessed the tension that would ensue by having super sensitive people discuss their issues? I don't think it is fair to say

without also disclosing that many super sensitives tire of the tone of the comments when they do share the precautions that work well for them. I have met several other super sensitives here that also take the level of precautions needed by T.H. and others with her unique gluten hypersensitivity. Many of them no longer actively post.

I admire the way that Shauna has supported others here, and I appreciate hearing how she copes with the necessary lifestyle changes. It certainly makes me feel better to know that she can understand the precautions that our family also needs to take in maintaining health and wellness in our gluten filled world.

I have one dire regret in my gluten free journey so far, and it was listening to others that felt our necessary precautions were too extreme. The consequences of that were devastating for our family, and I hope to never repeat that mistake.

[salexander421]

No they don't, because I don't walk around with "Celiac" stamped on my forehead.

I thoroughly understand super sensitives. But, I would like to know scientifically, how your wheat based slugg bait transferred gluten to the bearing fruit. Can you explain that to me, please?

All threads are open to all members.

Sometimes there just aren't any scientific answers, that's what makes it so hard and challenging. And that's exactly why we turn to the experiences of others to help us figure it all out. The truth is there just aren't many, if any, studies being done on any of these issues. If there was it would make it a lot easier.

Shauna's list may seem over the top for some but may not even be enough for others. We need to let everyone share their experiences without skepticism, I think I can speak for some of us when I say we get that skepticism enough from the non celiac/non gluten intolerant world.

We seem to do ok with most produce and so I don't feel the need to ask all these questions, if we did have a problem then I would. A light bulb actually went off in my head the other day when I read about wheat straw being used to grow strawberries. For months now we have not been able to figure out why our 2 year old sometimes would eat strawberries and be fine and other times she would eat them and get tummy aches and diarrhea. When I read that wheat straw is sometimes used in the growing process it all of a sudden made sense. She does fine with frozen strawberries and it must be something in the washing process, so for now we'll stick to the frozen ones. It's not scientific no, but it works.

We should allow people to freely share their experiences and allow the reader to decide if it may or may not be too extreme for themselves. That's just my feelings on the matter

[Jestgar]

Shauna, have you ever considered that you might have chemical sensitivities? It seems like the care you go through to make sure your food is free of gluten would also remove a lot of other contamination (coatings, crop acceleration, etc).

[kareng]

So........

Back to the original posters question. Is there something that can be done to wash fruits and vegs - more than just rinsing with water and less than growing your own or quizzing farmers (an exhausting prospect for anyone). At least I think that's the original idea.

It sounds like strawberries might be iffy and you certainly can't take a scrub brush to them.

I don't want to start a fight, just give the OP and others some actual procedures that would work for most sensitive folks. If they don't work for them, they can continue on to finding farmers, etc. Has someone found a good cleaning solution or method?

[T.H.]

Oh goodness. I guess I'll just say that I'm glad some of what I've had to say has been able to help some people.

Shauna, have you ever considered that you might have chemical sensitivities?

It is something we looked at, but doesn't seem to be the case. Organic produce, with less chemicals, actually tends to cause more gluten issues than conventional produce, at least with the bigger farms. Lots of organic farms seem to use sprays and such that have less processed grains and grain derivatives in them, I'm assuming as a binder.

Has someone found a good cleaning solution or method?

There were a couple things we used to do that we eventually had to abandon when we grew more sensitive. But they did help.

One thing for beans and whole grains is to sort and wash. Pour them out on a dark surface, like a black cookie pan, and take out any suspicious looking grains that don't look the same as the grain/legume you are sorting. Then wash them with soap and water in a mesh sieve (metal coffee filter, for teff).

Fill up a bowl with soapy water, put the beans/grains in the sieve and put it in the water, then scrub it around in against the inside of the sieve for about 20-30 seconds. Dump out the soapy water, rinse out the bowl, and repeat the soap washing 1-2 more times. Then rinse that way 2-3 times to get all the soap off.

With beans I have reacted to, I have washed the same batch that was originally tested and then re-tested it later. The reaction was less after washing in this manner. So I do think that it may be of some use in lowering any potential low level gluten, especially in items that it might be difficult to clean. Usually, if I am not using it right away, I needed to dry these out before storing, either in the open air or the oven on warm.

It's only useful for items that are sturdy enough to scrub against the sieve, though.

For softer, smooth skinned produce, washing with soap and water, then peeling, then washing with soap and water again, helped a bit.

For some, I wasn't ever able to find a solution that made any difference, like the strawberries you mentioned, Kareng. Broccoli, peaches, and cauliflower have been in that category, as well. Probably someone more skilled with a knife might be able to peel the peach, but I always ended up with a big, mushy mess instead, LOL.

[Mango04]

It is something we looked at, but doesn't seem to be the case. Organic produce, with less chemicals, actually tends to cause more gluten issues than conventional produce, at least with the bigger farms. Lots of organic farms seem to use sprays and such that have less processed grains and grain derivatives in them, I'm assuming as a binder.

This comment really reminds me of hypersensitive people who used to post around here a few years ago. They found out their hypersensitivity was the result of other underlying issues (I think lyme disease was one issue - I can't remember the others). Your comment is so similar to the ones I used to read here from them I just felt the need to point that out. (The main thread they posted on is now gone though, I think).

Sorry for the off-topic post..

[psawyer]

This comment really reminds me of hypersensitive people who used to post around here a few years ago. They found out their hypersensitivity was the result of other underlying issues (I think lyme disease was one issue - I can't remember the others). Your comment is so similar to the ones I used to read here from them I just felt the need to point that out. (The main thread they posted on is now gone though, I think).

Sorry for the off-topic post..

Actually, it is not off-topic. Lyme could well explain why some of these members are sill sick even after adopting the gluten-free diet.

The Lyme Disease topic is here. It has been quiet for a while, but is not gone.

[dilettantesteph]

So........

Back to the original posters question. Is there something that can be done to wash fruits and vegs - more than just rinsing with water and less than growing your own or quizzing farmers (an exhausting prospect for anyone). At least I think that's the original idea.

I have done triple washing with soap followed by careful rinsing. That helps.

I got an ultrasonic food washer which I used with soap (by hand washing dish soap). That helped more.

I tried washing with rubbing alcohol, followed by washing with soap and careful rinsing. I don't know if that helped further or not.

Bottom line was that careful sourcing was more effective. I still wash with soap and water and scrubbing with a vegetable brush if possible.

[kareng]

I have done triple washing with soap followed by careful rinsing. That helps.

I got an ultrasonic food washer which I used with soap (by hand washing dish soap). That helped more.

I tried washing with rubbing alcohol, followed by washing with soap and careful rinsing. I don't know if that helped further or not.

Bottom line was that careful sourcing was more effective. I still wash with soap and water and scrubbing with a vegetable brush if possible.

What's an ultrasonic food washer? Sounds a bit high tech for Walmart!

[dilettantesteph]

This comment really reminds me of hypersensitive people who used to post around here a few years ago. They found out their hypersensitivity was the result of other underlying issues (I think lyme disease was one issue - I can't remember the others). Your comment is so similar to the ones I used to read here from them I just felt the need to point that out. (The main thread they posted on is now gone though, I think).

Sorry for the off-topic post..

I do believe that it is important to consider other possibilities with your doctor if you are still sick on the standard gluten free diet. Super sensitivity is only one possibility.

In my case, my doctors and I have considered all sorts of possibilities, but this super sensitivity stuff has been the only answer. As long as we stick to these techniques, my family members and I are in very good health. As I have bragged about before, I even did a mini triathlon!! I am now back at work after 17 years off. These super sensitive techniques have been the answer for me.

[dilettantesteph]

What's an ultrasonic food washer? Sounds a bit high tech for Walmart!

I got it from a company who I can't mention here. Here's a link to another (much more expensive) source: Open Original Shared Link

[weluvgators]

We often use an ultrasonic food washer - that is amazing stuff, not even from a gluten perspective - it truly opened my eyes to how thickly coated some of our produce was!

We also use a soap and water with scrub brush method. We generally follow a three wash process - first with soap and water, the next two with water only. Our washing processes depend on our past experiences and the particular food being washed. Peeling is another defense we use as well.

For grains and beans, we do an initial visual inspection, followed by an extensive wash procedure in the ultrasonic food washer. We also rely extensively on gluten home testing to ensure that our sources meet our gluten free requirements.

So again, we have found that sourcing of our food is the most critical step for maintaining our wellness. We have been able to demonstrate with gluten home testing that our wash procedure works *sometimes*. We were able to take a dried fruit that was positive for gluten (not a high positive) to negative for gluten with our ultrasonic food washer. We were unable to clean a gluten contaminated amaranth to test negative for gluten . . . and we tried and tried and tried. I have had the same experience with other contaminated grains, as we were unable to sufficiently clean them from positive for gluten to negative for gluten.

Now is a great time of year to connect with farmers and CSA owners to discuss your produce needs, as they are already planning for next year's crops. We found that reaching out to a local CSA group helped us tremendously, as she was doing a lot of legwork in finding all of the local farms and interviewing them on their practices. She can quickly tell me the risk of any produce that she carries. She also grew a few of the crops herself this year and was able to meet our specifications.

Another fun produce adventure that we had this year was meeting up with another super sensitive friend in the next state over and going to her local farmer's market with her! She had already done all of the interviewing and could quickly steer me to the foods that met our requirements. It was so much fun!

As for considering other things . . . yeah, we do it all the time. But again, I spent over a year watching my child suffer in horrible ways, always in a desperate search for a *something else* (in large part because I listened to people that repeatedly told me that there *must* be something else) . . . well two hospitalizations, dozens of doctors, a trip cross country to seek more specialist healthcare provider input, and dozens if not hundreds of tests now have been unable to identify *something else* that relieves our super sensitivity. Incorporating our experiences and the expertise of other super sensitives COMPLETELY RELIEVES the chronic symptoms that otherwise surface. The list of *other* things that we have tested for borders on ridiculous . . . and OUCH - those bills have been extraordinary. And the hospitalizations, dozens of doctors (many reknown for their specialties) and experiences of our family haven't come up with anything more than continuing to follow super sensitive protocols . . . because that works (and it is enormously CHEAPER!!!)

[kareng]

We often use an ultrasonic food washer - that is amazing stuff, not even from a gluten perspective - it truly opened my eyes to how thickly coated some of our produce was!

I was wondering about these washers from the non-gluten perspective. My kids like to eat apples and I prefer to leave the peel for the fiber. Trying to get the coating off some apples, even organic, is hard. Also, we had the cantelope listeria problem (not at my house). Apparently, its very hard to get germs off a cantelope because of all the little divots. M & I LOVE cantelope! They grow well here, so I think we may try some next year.

[BakingQueen]

How do you guys wash things with coatings (apples), and things like broccoli? Also, do you recommend buys veggies that are packaged bags like spinach and celery or the ones that are just in bunches open air when you are forced to buy from a supermarket, and what about organic vs. non-organic?

[Gemini]

Weluvgators, I recognize that you and a few others are super-sensitive to gluten. We have set up this area on the board for your benefit.

I stand by my statement that Shauna (T.H.) reports a level of sensitivity that is far beyond anything we have seen in the time I have been here. Worrying about the diet of animals whose manure was used as fertilizer to grow crops is unique. Your view may differ, but for the vast majority of us here, it does not matter where the manure came from. It is all just fertilizer.

Peter...I admire you for your diplomatic attitude! I never like to disparage anyone with food allergies and intolerances as I am pretty darn sensitive

to gluten myself but worrying about what the animals are eating if their manure is used as fertilizer borders on the neurotic. There is just no valid medical science behind this line of thought. I realize it is very easy to become neurotic when first diagnosed.....I think we have all had our moments when learning the diet but this is getting old.

Just wanted to add I hope everyone has a wonderful Holiday season, no matter how you celebrate because I am sure I will be booted from the forum for using the word neurotic!

[Lisa]

Just wanted to add I hope everyone has a wonderful Holiday season, no matter how you celebrate

And a happy holiday season to you too! The speed of it's approach is concerning me!

[Cypressmyst]

There is just no valid medical science behind this line of thought.

My Dearest Gemini I do beg to differ on this point.

Open Original Shared Link

The above is a link to a study on the Soy Protein being found in the egg yolks of chickens fed a soy based diet. If the Soy Protein can get there then it isn't that big of a stretch to think that the Gluten Protein could get there and I can tell you from personal experience with my own chickens that there is something to this. I feed them a grain/soy free diet and can eat as many of their eggs as I want without getting brain fogged or a stomach ache. I have a limit of 3 store bought (organic free range/cage free) eggs every few days otherwise.

So if chickens are what they eat, and humans are what we eat, then why is it such a stretch to think that plants are what they eat? And if what they are eating is the gluten protein then...

I also had a first hand experience with something similar in my tomato garden this year. I spread jalapeno juice at the base of the plants to keep the bunnies away. It worked wonderfully but to my surprise my cherry tomatoes had a spicey taste to them, at least the first few handfuls that I harvested. It was interesting and quite tasty.

Let's make sure that we are keeping all of this science and logic based and not just in the realm of wishful thinking. Doing so does a disservice to the people of this forum and is a good way to keep people unnecessarily sick.

Of course it is possible that the internet and my tastebuds are "all in my head."

[Lisa]

Got any studies on gluten transfer? I would really like to be aware, if that should be the case. Honestly.

And I can't agree more to keep this scientifically based even though some people may think I'm a Flat Earther.

I'm really not.

[Lisa]

Yes, please....But this topic should be about cleaning fruits and vegetables. Don't scrub those strawberries too much.

Begin a new topic if it is not keeping with the current one.

[mushroom]

My Dearest Gemini I do beg to differ on this point.

Open Original Shared Link

The above is a link to a study on the Soy Protein being found in the egg yolks of chickens fed a soy based diet. If the Soy Protein can get there then it isn't that big of a stretch to think that the Gluten Protein could get there and I can tell you from personal experience with my own chickens that there is something to this. I feed them a grain/soy free diet and can eat as many of their eggs as I want without getting brain fogged or a stomach ache. I have a limit of 3 store bought (organic free range/cage free) eggs every few days otherwise.

So if chickens are what they eat, and humans are what we eat, then why is it such a stretch to think that plants are what they eat? And if what they are eating is the gluten protein then...

I also had a first hand experience with something similar in my tomato garden this year. I spread jalapeno juice at the base of the plants to keep the bunnies away. It worked wonderfully but to my surprise my cherry tomatoes had a spicey taste to them, at least the first few handfuls that I harvested. It was interesting and quite tasty.

Let's make sure that we are keeping all of this science and logic based and not just in the realm of wishful thinking. Doing so does a disservice to the people of this forum and is a good way to keep people unnecessarily sick.

Of course it is possible that the internet and my tastebuds are "all in my head."

I do not have a problem with the basic premises of your post, cypressmyst. I, too, try to avoid eating flesh (and eggs) of animals which have been fed soy and corn (soy is not that much of a problem in NZ ) because I have read studies from which I cannot quote this minute of these proteins being found in the flesh of animals (particularly cattle). I approach it from the basis of lectins rather than gluten (since I am more susceptible to lectins than gluten, although suffer from both) and the lectins are very hard for animals to digest, being designed to protect the plant from ingestion by insects and animals in the first place. The more we can minimise our exposure to the things that harm us (in particular) the better off we are. That is not to say that someone who is not as lectin sensitive as I am needs to take so many precautions. I just like to make people aware of lectins and if they choose to explore it, well maybe it applies to them or maybe it doesn't. I also can only eat organic beef because feedlot beef (goodness knows what they feed them - I have really been afraid to investigate ) willl keep me buzzing for a couple of nights of insomnia.

And I am planning on trying to reintroduce raw, homegrown tomatoes into my diet this summer in the hopes that two years of avoidance will have made my body forget its reaction to those other tomatoes.

There is a lot of common ground here in the middle of the forum. But I will not be protecting my tomatoes from the bunnies with jalapeno juice - that would doom my experiment from the start

[T.H.]

Interesting facts about lyme disease - so many similarities!

The one thing I'd be curious to know is if an elimination of symptoms can be brought about in Lyme disease by diet change alone? If so, then I would definitely think it's worth testing for in everyone. But if the symptoms will not completely resolve with only the diet change, then it seems more useful for one who is searching for reasons of continuing ill-health.

worrying about what the animals are eating if their manure is used as fertilizer borders on the neurotic.

If worrying about this comes about for absolutely no reason - no improvement in health because of this precaution, no issues if it's ignored - then yes, it would be neurotic.

If, however, there are physically measurable changes in one's health due to this precaution, then I would disagree. If, in fact, not focusing on this issue results in my getting sicker, then it seems to me I'd be kind of stupid to ignore the results.

I don't have a test sensitive enough to say whether the levels of gluten I react to are present in certain foods...yet. I DO, however, have medical tests that showed changes in my vitamin levels, my weight, and my thyroid health. And these only changed for the better on MY diet.

Gemini, with the level of care that you take with your diet - which I know IS careful - my health was going down the tubes. Your diet, the diet that was recommended to me and that had worked for others in my family, did NOT work for me. At all. Taking this nearly 'neurotic' kind of care is the ONLY thing that finally got my health to improve.

Honestly, I'm not sure why it seems to upset you so much. I've never claimed that my diet is for everyone. I'm not trying to tell everyone what they should be doing, or how they should be eating. I'm sharing what works for me, with the understanding that this may not be relevant/necessary/useful for everyone, probably the majority.

I am not looking at anyone or what they do for their body and their health and telling them my opinion on what that says about their mental state. Because I haven't the faintest clue what they've gone through, what their experience is, and who they are as a person, both mentally and physically.

If we want to argue over facts, I think that's a different story. I do disagree with your statement that "There is just no valid medical science behind this line of thought," for example. There are no specific gluten or celiac studies behind this line of thought, that's true enough. No studies on super-sensitives have been done, no studies on foods and extremely low ppm of gluten have been done. But that is not the same thing as scientifically invalid.

People still reacted allergically to peanuts at extremely low levels before we had tests that were sensitive enough to detect that level of ppm. That didn't mean that when a person claimed to have reacted to peanuts they were making scientifically false claims. It means they were making claims that were scientifically unverifiable, at that point in time.

That's where I'd put many of the claims here from super-sensitive folks. We don't have the tech to prove or disprove what we claim. That doesn't mean the tech won't come along eventually, but until it does, we have to do our best to muddle through. I'm sure we'll have some mistakes along the way, but there's only so much we can discover when we have to do it all with no other measure than 'how is our health' as a guide.

And with so little testing available about some of our claims, we have to do our best to thoroughly investigate possibilities, to see what we may want to consider, or what we can dismiss. Like, for example, manure and protein uptake from the soil.

You can look at any number of farming sites and find farmers that discuss what healthy and unhealthy cattle manure looks like. Intact grains are not uncommon in sick cows. It's easy to verify that.

I have not found any studies on gluten protein uptake by veggies from the soil - don't believe there are any, but I could be wrong. But I have found studies on protein uptake from the soil in plants, so theoretically it is possible, and it looks like it would depend largely on the plant itself.

This study (Open Original Shared Link) was looking at protein uptake in two varieties of plants, and found that a "mechanism of protein acquisition observed was the uptake of intact protein." Again, this is not gluten, and these plants were not ones that we eat. But as I can't find any studies done on gluten and the plants we're eating, and the ppm detection level for available testing wouldn't match what I believe I react to, anyway, this is what I've got to work with.

I'm left with the knowledge that scientifically, it's been shown that some plants can uptake intact proteins that were added to the soil. And some manure has intact grains in them that I would be adding to my soil.

If I could test my manure, and knew which plants could uptake intact proteins and which couldn't, then I could have more focus for my concerns, yeah. It'd be easier. But I don't have that information, so I have to simply eliminate a potential hazard with a broad brush until that changes.

Again, that doesn't mean I think everyone else should do this, or even worry about this. Most don't need to. But I'm going to keep sharing what my experiences are on this, because there are some people who do share it. Not every aspect of it, but we have enough cross over that we can help each other by sharing, just as much as celiacs who can eat gluten-free products help each other by sharing information on that.

[dilettantesteph]

I just want to point out that plants don't have to uptake gluten from the soil for gluten in fertilizer to be a problem. The edible parts of the plant can easily come into contact with the soil directly or indirectly through wind or animal transfer.

[dilettantesteph]

How do you guys wash things with coatings (apples), and things like broccoli? Also, do you recommend buys veggies that are packaged bags like spinach and celery or the ones that are just in bunches open air when you are forced to buy from a supermarket, and what about organic vs. non-organic?

Your post almost got lost with all the bickering. I found that I reacted to coatings on apples quite early on, while I was still eating more processed foods. I do better getting them from the market from farmers who don't use coatings. What I do is buy double of everything and process half to eat later. I also concentrate on eating in season.

I couldn't get the waxes off by washing. They seem to transfer to the part you eat (to a very small degree but still too much for me) when peeling.

Broccoli wasn't a problem initially. I now grow my own.

Open air produce can be a problem if there is an active bakery nearby, or if there are a lot of customers eating gluten and handling veggies.

At this point the only produce I know of that I can tolerate from the supermarket are organic carrots which come in bags, a hydroponically grown lettuce which comes in a plastic container, one company's greenhouse grown peppers which come in a bag, and bananas which are out in the open. When I was eating more supermarket produce, I sometimes found that organic were better, and sometimes non organic. I had to do elimination diets on everything to figure it out.

I hope that you see an improvement in your health.

[dilettantesteph]

I can still understand you moderators concerns about newbies. Maybe you can make warning lights flash when people look at the super sensitivity section.

Nice warning. Now if you just do something to prevent the unkind posts.