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Sluggish Gallbladder/liver: Herbs And Salicylate/gluten Sensitivity


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#16 CR5442

 
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:43 AM

One other thing Bea on peppermint and salicylates. Could I ask what your symptoms were? Both digestive, neurologically and physically? I was trying to see if there were compounds in some herbs that weren't in others, particularly bitters. I thought saponins might be one issue as they are gut irritants... however, Peppermint doesn't have these in any great quantity if at all.
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#17 Skylark

 
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:40 AM

Thanks for the suggestion of cleavers. There is an herb store in town so I'll try to go by over the long weekend and see if they have it.

GAPS diet is a version of the Specific Carboyhdrate Diet that's got extra probiotics and a lot of gelatin-rich bone broth. It is designed to heal the intestine and hopefully repopulate it with healthier bacteria. http://gapsdiet.com

For the TH1 vs TH2 branches of the immune system, here are a few links. It's not simple and the articles explain it better than I will. The idea is that the immune system gets out of balance, but it can be different in different people. Herbs that work for a TH1 person will make a TH2 person sicker.

http://www.anapsid.o...s/cheneyis.html
http://www.medhelp.o...or-TH2-dominant

This is the problem with stimulating the wrong side of the immune system. http://www.precision...een-tea-hazards
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#18 yolo

 
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:41 PM

Thanks for the suggestion of cleavers. There is an herb store in town so I'll try to go by over the long weekend and see if they have it.

GAPS diet is a version of the Specific Carboyhdrate Diet that's got extra probiotics and a lot of gelatin-rich bone broth. It is designed to heal the intestine and hopefully repopulate it with healthier bacteria. http://gapsdiet.com

For the TH1 vs TH2 branches of the immune system, here are a few links. It's not simple and the articles explain it better than I will. The idea is that the immune system gets out of balance, but it can be different in different people. Herbs that work for a TH1 person will make a TH2 person sicker.

http://www.anapsid.o...s/cheneyis.html
http://www.medhelp.o...or-TH2-dominant

This is the problem with stimulating the wrong side of the immune system. http://www.precision...een-tea-hazards


These are fantastic links! Thank you Skylark and Caroline.

I think finding out if one is TH1 or TH2 could be of great value for healing one's health. I am now wondering if there is anyone here in the SF Bay Area who could do these tests? The lowball self test to me would indicate I am TH2 since Green Tea is completely out for me. All I need to do is drink one cup of watered down Green Tea and I feel hyped up for at least 48 hours. Nevertheless I also avoid Echinacea since I know it is an immune stimulant. So maybe I don't need to??

Given the herbs in question (Marshmallow Root, Dandelion Root, Oregon Grape Root, Barberry Root), I wonder how they orient with this TH1 or TH2?? I tried to choose ones that are not stimulants as much as possible. I thus did not suggest Echinacea (or Green Tea) or even Burdock Root. If any on the list might be a stimulant, I would think it would be the Barberry, thus my suggestion to use it with observation and caution. Certainly Dandelion does not appear to be an immune stimulant; it just seems to be very good for most everyone (though of course there always is the exception).

As far as my "list" goes, I did not suggest Rosemary, though if one does NOT have a salicylate problem, it is a very good herb to use. It may be slightly stimulating however since it is part of the mint family.

I did suggest Marshmallow Root (the one herb Caroline left out). It is the oddball in the list since it has no berberine and is not a cleanser or blood purifier; nevertheless it is key in matters of both gut and liver/gallbladder health as well as the kidneys since it is mucilaginous plus anti-inflammatory. I don't believe it is a stimulant of any kind. Nevertheless, people on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet look at Marshmallow Root with suspicion since they fear it may clog the lining of the intestines. I never found it to be harmful at all, but like the articles Skylark showed us, we are all a little different. My feeling is that for those with Celiac or Salicylate Sensitivity, a little mucilage on the intestinal wall can be healing rather than a source of problems. This may present itself differently for someone with Crohn's disease however.
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Diagnosed celiac sprue as infant: failure to thrive & pneumonia-back on grains age 4. Began herbs 1971 combating chronic kidney disease/general ill health 1973. Avoid wheat family and "allergens" by 1980. Late 80's doc. diagnosed candida: cave-man diet. Diagnosed degraded myelin sheath 2006; need co-enzyme B vitamins. Discovered celiac fall 2007; finally told diagnosis as infant. Recently found I am salicylic acid intolerant. Ironically can't tolerate most herbs now. Can now eat brown rice & other gluten-free grains (except corn) & even maple syrup & now homeopathic medicine works! Am still exploring the shape of this elephant but I've made progress!

#19 yolo

 
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:16 PM

Hi All, so here are some details on the herbs that Yolo (Bea) mentioned above.
All the following are both antilithic (dissolving and preventing the formation of Gallstones) and act on liver congestion:
Barberry Root
Dandelion
Milk Thistle
Rosemary

Antilithic mainly is:
Nettle

Liver decongestives are:
Oregon Grape Root
Goldenseal

Most herbs have a salicylate content. The most concentrated seem to be the lamiacea family so - peppermint, thyme, rosemary, Oregano etc. Salicylate sensitivity appears to be particularly marked in people with gut issues. Cases of ulcerative colitis have been exacerbated by this compound.

This paper explains some of the mechanics behind absorption, conversion and excretion of acetyl salicylic acid:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....m00276-0043.pdf

Aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid), once absorbed, is
hydrolysed almost immediately to salicylic acid. A
proportion of this is excreted unchanged, but it is
largely conjugated with glycine to form salicyluric
acid. The remainder is converted to salicyl
phenolic glucuronide, salicyl acyl glucuronide and
gentisic acid. The conjugates of salicylate are
cleared more rapidly through the kidney than
salicylic acid and are thus the more effective

Both salicyluric acid and salicyl phenolic
glucuronide are said to be rate limited in their
formation and excretion (Levy & Tsuchiya, 1972).
This implies that with increasing dosage their
synthesis does not increase proportionally. The
capacity limit for their formation may be
approached or even exceeded by doses of aspirin
well within the therapeutic range (Levy, Tsuchiya
&Amsel, 1972).

My thoughts are that it is possible, with the increased toxin absorption through the leaking gut caused by celiac disease, that it increases the level of salicylates in the blood stream and increases the burden on the liver. It is also possible that the half-life of salicylates in the system is much increased in people with liver stagnation, poor bile emptying function. Skylark, you are the biologist amongst us... any clues on salicylate accumulation and half-life issues in celiac or other digestive diseases?

It is possible I suppose, that if gut health is improved the burden on the liver and other systems, particularly the kidneys is reduced, allowing them to both act at full capacity on conversion of and reducing chemical loads of compounds like salicylic acid... perhaps something for further study?! Will post more on the qualities of the above herbs when i have a moment.


Thank you Caroline for this comprehensive info. from your herbal studies.

This thing with the anti-lithics is very interesting. I would have thought that Barberry would also be liver decongesting. It does have other uses--it is also excellent against infections: viral, bacterial, fungal, microbial. Take note Skylark! Not everyone can handle it however. It is extremely bitter. My friend Graeme with celiac and latent rheumatoid arthritis cannot handle it or Burdock for instance. He also has thyroid problems even though he no longer has the markers for Hashimotos. Interesting, eh? He does take Dandelion regularly and is seeing a Naturopath. I think I will suggest this test to the both of them. He tends to have gut dysbiosis. Currently he is back on grapefruit seed extract to kill off his seemingly intractible infection (klebsiella pneumoniae).

As far as the Salicylate condition goes, as I reported previously, both Nettles and Golden Seal are often used as an antidote.
What does this imply?? Caroline you could be right--the liver and gall bladder seem to be implicated if, by nothing else, what these herbs do. I do not know if all people with Salicylate Sensitivity have celiac, however I do suspect that many are gluten sensitive at the very least. Many don't want to deal with it since their sals condition already is so overwhelming. They seem to miss how important avoiding gluten is to many of these conditions. Nevertheless, Salicylate Sensitive people do tend to have Leaky Gut Syndrome. Go figure...

Again about the Salicylate accumulation. I do wonder about that. At age three I remember thinking eating green apples gave me bruises. I did not take aspirin or any herbs. Basically at that time I was very healthy. I avoided getting the whooping cough everyone else had for instance. I was at that time off most gluten ( I was not reintroduced to it until a year later). Of course I climbed the apple tree to get at the apples and was also eating the raspberries from the bush nearby--both full of salicylates. Nevertheless, two summers ago (at age 60) I really couldn't sleep plus my itchy bitchy eczema was through the roof. We had a wonderful garden full of tomatoes, peppers, basil, cucumbers, oregano, zucchini, dill, thyme, marjoram, chamomile, rosemary etc. All chock full of salicylates. I was in fact eating mostly the SCD diet and thus made all kinds of zucchini/sunflower pancakes etc as well as zuke/tomato/beet/pepper/oregano/basil/thyme etc. stews and drinking loads of peppermint tea and passion flower tea at night like mad (the passion flower to help me sleep though honestly it didn't really help much except to make me both jumpy and groggy--an accomplishment of sorts, eh?). I think the one good thing I did for myself was making and eating the 24 hour yogurt (thus free of lactose) which I relied on as a staple.

The ironies of life, eh? Many with salicylate sensitivity discover what is good for most people often is not good for them--i.e., many basic fruits and veggies.
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Diagnosed celiac sprue as infant: failure to thrive & pneumonia-back on grains age 4. Began herbs 1971 combating chronic kidney disease/general ill health 1973. Avoid wheat family and "allergens" by 1980. Late 80's doc. diagnosed candida: cave-man diet. Diagnosed degraded myelin sheath 2006; need co-enzyme B vitamins. Discovered celiac fall 2007; finally told diagnosis as infant. Recently found I am salicylic acid intolerant. Ironically can't tolerate most herbs now. Can now eat brown rice & other gluten-free grains (except corn) & even maple syrup & now homeopathic medicine works! Am still exploring the shape of this elephant but I've made progress!

#20 CR5442

 
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:28 PM

Hi Bea, very briefly as we are off for lectures very shortly. sorry for missing out Marshmallow root, interestingly we are doing this in class on the digestive system tomorrow... so I will be sure to ask some pointed questions. I think it was left off the list because i didn't see it in the anti-lithics and LC's - so you are right, it is an oddball. It does have some properties similar to Slippery elm though, as in protective and restorative to the lining of the bowel. I'll let you know when we've had the lecture.

Re. rosemary, sorry, that crept in because i've been using it and just wanted to put the whole list of what we had both been taking together... hence the milk thistle too. Sorry the research is very cursory as I've been finishing off an analysis of one herb for an essay. Will try to add more on the immune system issues later

Immune system enhancers are Flower pollen, Microalgae, wheatgrass (??!!), watercress, Kelp Thallus (I'm seeing a T something theme here!), Bladderwrack Thallus, Suma Root.

Immune system stimulants are: Echinacea (no surprise there!), Wild indigo root, Marigold flower, plantain leaf, Purslane herb, Usnea Thallus, Lemon Rind and oil (limonene?), Asian Buplever Root, Yellow Jessamine Root.

Interesting that none of our herbs in the list appear here. Also it would be interesting to look at the compound differences between the two groups... perhaps there is a particular set of compounds that work on one or the other T groups.

Very rushed, sorry. Will get back here later!
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Th1 And Th2 In Immune System Problems

By Skylark in Skylark's Blog, on 20 November 2011 - 09:40 AM

GAPS diet is a version of the Specific Carboyhdrate Diet that's got extra probiotics and a lot of gelatin-rich bone broth. It is designed to heal the intestine and hopefully repopulate it with healthier bacteria. http://gapsdiet.com

For the TH1 vs TH2 branches of the immune system, here are a few links. It's not simple and the articles explain it...

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