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"Cross Reactivity"


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43 replies to this topic

#31 vb10

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 08:54 AM

And I state this unequivocally as someone who has developed reactions to many foods since going gluten free. I do not term them cross-reactivity. I term them additional intolerances, many of them developed because I had a leaky gut which allowed larger molecules of these foods to filter into my bloodstream and be attacked by T-cells which were put on guard and created a hyper-sensitivity in my body to what it perceived to be alien invaders. I state this not as fact, but as my opinion.


Okay, I am very familiar with the leaky gut syndrome (just listened to an hour lecture about it) and here is my question: why only certain foods create hyper-sensitivity in your (and my) body?
Why don't I know at least one celiac who developed hiper-sensitivity to meat or cruciferous vegetables?
I too developed hiper-sensitivity to many different foods and cannot eat much.
Have you ever tried looking for the answers? Have you ever seen any research that would offer a reason why it is so?
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#32 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:12 AM

Some people DO have a problem with cruciferous vegetables. Read the food intolerance section.

Some people cannot DIGEST MEAT. It means they lack sufficient enzymes to do so.

You seem to know very little about the digestive process and you are quick to assume things as a result. IMHO

It's not necessarily that the antibodies "just developed" right after going gluten free-- it is possibly because when you REMOVED the gluten from your diet, your other intolerances became more evident to you. How lousy did you feel before you went gluten-free?? I drank milk and ate cheese out the ying- yang before I was DXed as a celiac, and I had horrible symptoms all the time. But I did not KNOW it was from dairy, TOO! I knew my gut was messed up, but I did not know why. I took out both gluten and dairy and I STILL FELT LIKE HELL for MONTHS.

THE GUT NEEDS TO HEAL.

Actually, I am also intolerant of soy--and in fact, all legumes. Not any other grains.

As for dairy, secondary lactase deficiency results from injury to the small intestine that occurs with severe diarrheal illness, celiac disease, Crohn's disease, or chemotherapy. This type of lactase deficiency can occur at any age but is more common in infancy.

Celiac disease blunts the villi in the small intestine. The tips of the villi produce lactase, which is the enzyme that digests lactose. For some, this means a secondary lactose intolerance--with gluten intolerance being the primary.

Okay so far?

now, IN TIME, the majority of celiacs can resume dairy products when the villi heal. Some cannot.

Some people develop an intolerance to soy which has no explanation
I can find. Believe me, I have read about this disease process for 3 years. Some suggest it is because soy is used so freely in products we consume regularly (like wheat gluten is) and therefore, some develop an intolerance for it. That is how food intolerances work--how much are you eating any one food? That food could become an issue. This is why Elimination and ROTATION diets help people recover.

If you cannot digest potatoes or whatever else is bothering you right now--and you list mainly carbs and starches-- it is likely because your digestive tract is inflamed.
They are the most difficult to digest--for most people.


from the Harvard Medical School:

"December 2010 guidelines from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) explain how to distinguish a food allergy from a food intolerance. The difference: Food allergies are orchestrated by the body's immune system; food intolerance results from an inability of the gut to digest food normally.

An allergy is the immune system's overreaction to a normally harmless substance. The resulting symptoms may include lightheadedness; itching, hives or rash; swelling of the lips, tongue and throat; and nausea, vomiting and intestinal upset, including cramping and diarrhea. Many foods are associated with allergic reactions, but 90% of all cases involve milk, eggs, peanuts, tree nuts, fish, shellfish, wheat or soy.

Rarely, a food allergy will trigger a life-threatening, whole-body reaction known as anaphylaxis, in which the breathing passages narrow and blood pressure drops sharply, causing shock, loss of consciousness and sometimes death.

People with food allergies must avoid the dietary culprit. But in case of accidental exposure, a self-injecting device (EpiPen, Twinject) can dampen the reaction until medical help arrives.

As for food allergies starting in adulthood, it's not common, but not rare, either.

When a food allergy is suspected, the NIAID guidelines recommend two tests to narrow the field of potential culprits: A skin-prick test and a blood test.

Unlike food allergies, food intolerance usually results from the inability to digest or metabolize a food completely. The symptoms -- gas, bloating, nausea and diarrhea -- overlap those of irritable bowel syndrome, making diagnosis tricky.

Food intolerances are varied, but some common types are lactose (milk sugar) intolerance, impaired complex carbohydrate digestion and gluten intolerance.

If you have troublesome reactions to certain foods, it's important to determine what your problem is. If it's a food allergy, you may have to avoid the food trigger or risk anaphylaxis or gastrointestinal damage.

But if your problem is a food intolerance, you can safely experiment with dietary changes for symptom relief. One way or the other, you can expect to enjoy food once again."

Does this help at all?
  • 2

"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


#33 vb10

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:15 AM

"I believe this research is ongoing on in many countries just as we discuss it here"--again, WHERE EXACTLY? Do you have ANY SUBSTANTIAL evidence to support this statement?

I know that gluten intolerance is being researched in Sweden. I also know that in Italy they are working on producing gluten-free wheat. I have read about it from Dr. Vikki's website.

"There are food intolerances. Skylark and Mushroom and I have explained it to you and Skylark has graciously provided you with ample research to support this information."

I actually read all the articles Skylark provided. There is some very solid research there. However, none of it disproves the theory of cross-reactivity.

Read the supported evidence.

I have.

If you choose to ignore it, that's your business.

I have read it.

"But here is the bottom line, you can't just take things off the internet--advertisements and blogs--and suggest they are PROOF."

I agree. I do not think they are PROOF. I think they offer a theory that explains developing secondary food intolerance by providing details about cross-reactivity to gluten. If you know any research that would explain the fact that some people who go on gluten-free diet develop additional food intolerance, please let me know. It would be very helpful.

"That is not only wrong-- it is misleading to the newly diagnosed who come to this forum looking for answers and help."

I have made a suggestion to the person who asked the question to go off all grains and potatoes and try an elimination diet. What is the danger in doing this? Nothing - no potatoes and no grains for a month.

The worst that can happen is she (or he) will miss potatoes.

The best thing that can happen to her is that she will cure her acid reflux, because this is how I did it.
As soon as I went for elimination diet, I no longer had acid reflux (and this was my official diagnosis).
I still have my gastric erosion, but it is healing.

I understand that you care and you are trying to be helpful, but I would like you to know: your tone in your messages to me personally is beyond unfriendly. It is unacceptable. I believe I do not deserve this kind of treatment.

If your intention is for me to stop postings on this forum, I believe it is not being very helpful, since I am myself a celiac sufferer.
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#34 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:25 AM

I understand that you care and you are trying to be helpful, but I would like you to know: your tone in your messages to me personally is beyond unfriendly. It is unacceptable. I believe I do not deserve this kind of treatment.

If your intention is for me to stop postings on this forum, I believe it is not being very helpful, since I am myself a celiac sufferer.


You have got to be joking. How am I being "unfriendly"?? I am trying so hard to answer your questions and explain what you asked to be explained.

I even asked a scientist among us to provide information for you to read because I want to help you understand. I am--in the words of many members on here, if I may say so with a humble tone--a voice of reason and kindness.

I think I have been beyond gracious in my attempts to help you understand the concept of secondary food intolerances. Nowhere do I adapt a tone that is discourteous or unfriendly.

Did you read the last post I wrote in response to your question about food intolerances and how they develop?

I took time to try and help you and I do not see how that is anything but kind. Accusing me of such things is an attack on me personally.

I refer you to the Board Rules.
  • 1

"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


#35 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 10:08 AM

I know that gluten intolerance is being researched in Sweden. I also know that in Italy they are working on producing gluten-free wheat. I have read about it from Dr. Vikki's website.

If you know any research that would explain the fact that some people who go on gluten-free diet develop additional food intolerance, please let me know. It would be very helpful.



Again, how is this first statement RELEVANT to "cross-reactivity theory"?

Dr. Vikki--same source. AGAIN.


I explained it ABOVE--any good celiac research material explains it.

I am very sorry you are unwilling or unable to see what we are telling you. If your dietary exclusions help you recover--then, that is all that matters.

But it is not acceptable practice on the forum to make statements as facts when they simply are not so. That is what we have asked you to stop doing.

I apologize to the OP who asked for help and had her thread hijacked. It was not my intention. I asked a question about a source and this is what happens sometimes.

I wish you well.
  • 1

"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


#36 Lisa

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 10:09 AM

A healthy discussion is always a welcome thing here, but when the argument overshadows the discussion, perhaps it's time to stop :D

Please review our Board Rules:

http://www.celiac.co...tion=boardrules

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Any claims you make here should be based on legitimate sources, or be expressed as opinion, experience, or inquiry. You should remain on topic and be consistent with the theme of the forum as a whole.
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Lisa

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"Not all who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

#37 Skylark

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 10:40 AM

I would love to know your opinion:

What, according to peer reviewed research, causes "secondary intolerance"?
How do celiacs get thouse antibodies?
I have been drinking milk and having dairy producst all my life and right after going gluten free, how did I get so many antibodies?
Why some people who go on a gluten-free diet develop lactose intolerance, grain intolerance, soy intolerance, etc.?
Why does it happen as soon as they go off gluten?
Why don't they develop intolerance of meat or vegetables? I would like to see at least one person who has developed intolerance of cruciferous vegetables while going gluten-free. To my knowledge (and this is my opinion), it has never happened.
What is the explanation behind the fact that many people (like myself) developed "intolerance" for millet, amaranth , rice and other grains that are gluten-free?
I know only two theories that explain that. One is "cross-reactivity" that is a theory and, as we all know now, the research is not peer reviewed, but it makes total sense to me. The other one is closely connected. If you know any other theories that explain the mechanics why there are very specific intolerance that develop on gluten free diet, please let me know. Of course, it should be in APA format and all research has to be peer reviewed. However, even if it is not peer reviewed, I would love to hear it.

These are all great questions. None have answers but there are many more theories than you have considered, most with better evidence than cross-reactivity.

As far as peer review, peer reviewed literature is more limited and difficult to read but if you largely stick to it you will avoid falling into the traps that tend to catch non-scientists. Articles like the ones from Cyrex are all over the Internet. They are pseudo-scientific, cite a lot of irrelevant references, fail to cite the references that disagree with their marketing claims, and over-interpret what data they have. They are constructed to look legitimate enough that an average person will be impressed and pay hundreds of dollars for questionably useful test. The peer review process doesn't allow an author to overlook conflicting information or over-interpret their data. Journal articles are also constrained to a format of hypothesis testing, which limits wild speculation.

Personally, I think our development of food intolerances has more to do with Fasano's zonulin work than cross-reactivity. We have abnormal intestinal permeability and more foods make it across the intestinal epithelium to the lamina propria where the intestinal immune cells are than happens in normal people. That combined with a high level of inflammation and immune cells in the intestine means more food is presented to the immune system as foreign and we develop a wider variety of food IgA antibodies. Here. This is a great article.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21248165

There is also growing evidence of gut flora and mucous layer production problems in people with celiac. This supports the "leaky gut" idea.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20509753
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21787223
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22060617

I do not believe cross-reactivity is a particularly good hypothesis to hold onto. The few studies I have seen don't support it, other than milk, and antibody specificity is usually pretty good. As far as to why some foods provoke reactions more easily than others, some proteins are more immunogenic than others. There is a lot in the allergy literature about why this is the case. It has to do with high-affinity reactions between MHC and certain epitopes, much like the high-affinity reaction between DQ2.5 and deamidated gliadin.

We may be compounding our gut dysbiosis and inflammation issues with gluten-free baked goods because they are very starchy and contain gums like xanthan and guar gum that feed the wrong bacteria. The nutritionists in the 1940s who were going purely by symptoms documented that people with GI problems - IBS, SIBO, colitis, Crohn's, celiac - do not digest complex sugars and starches well. The hypothesis is that we don't produce saccharide digesting enzymes very well. (Lactose intolerance by this mechanism is common knowledge on the board; not everyone realizes it can extend to enzymes used to digest other di- and polysaccharides.) Gluten was discovered as the underlying mechanism of celiac and we were "cured" but many of us have learned that gluten-free is not the magic diet it's touted to be.

I also think a lot of our reactions have nothing to do with antibodies and are to food chemicals, lectins, and alkaloids. Grains and beans contain lectins that can give us give us trouble. Nightshades contain alkaloids and lectins. Aged cheeses, red wine, chocolate, hung meat, and fermented foods tend to contain amino acids that are neurotransmitter precursors. MSG (natural or manufactured) and Aspartame give some people trouble because they contain neurotransmitters. Salicylates are another problem chemical, particularly for folks with damaged intestines. Again, gut dysbiosis plays a role because of both increased permeability to food chemicals and lack of symbiotic bacteria that can digest problem food chemicals. Have a look at this website. It's fascinating.
http://failsafediet.wordpress.com/

Cruciferous veggies that you mention as well-tolerated in another post don't contain human-reactive lectins, and they also don't contain much in the way of troublesome food chemicals. Same with fresh meats, white rice, and lettuce which most of us tolerate.

So, I would encourage you to cling less strongly to your cross-reactivity idea. There seems to be a lot of intestinal and immune physiology you need to learn and a lot of literature you have yet to read.
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#38 Skylark

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 11:05 AM

@Lisa. Sorry, I was writing when your post went through. I am trying to be constructive and perhaps some of what I have written about the various ways we can react to foods will be of use to Corky21.
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#39 Lisa

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 11:09 AM

@Lisa. Sorry, I was writing when your post went through. I am trying to be constructive and perhaps some of what I have written about the various ways we can react to foods will be of use to Corky21.

As long as everything conforms with the Board Rules...go for it! :D

Would you prefer to have a separate thread..for those interested in this particular topic? It might get lost piggy-backing on the Original Post, and perhaps a disservice to the OP.
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Lisa

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"Not all who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

#40 vb10

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 11:35 AM

I apologize to the person who started the thread and everybody else, but I do have to reply to this. This is going to be my last reply, so I hope this is a good excuse.

"Clearly you are unmoved by proven science and stuck on this idea"
"If you choose to ignore it, that's your personal business".
"You have got to be joking."

The tone of the statements above, that were taken from your correspondence with me, is not exactly polite.

"Nowhere do I adapt a tone that is discourteous or unfriendly."

Please see the statements above.

I want to thank you for your efforts in trying to explain your point of view to me. Believe me, I understood it very well. It does not mean that I agree with it, but I do understand your point of view very clearly.

This is in no way a personal attack on you - I have never allowed myself to say anything disrespectful and made sure that my tone was appropriate. If I wrote anything even remotely impolite - I apologize.

I wish you the very best - I hope you are healthy, I really do. I also hope this concludes this conversation since I no longer wish to be a part of it. Thank you one more time.
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#41 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 12:17 PM

@Lisa. Sorry, I was writing when your post went through. I am trying to be constructive and perhaps some of what I have written about the various ways we can react to foods will be of use to Corky21.


Many thanks to you, Skylark for providing more supportive information regarding food intolerances for Corky.

As was my original intent--to provide suggestions for the original poster --and any other reader new to the forum--so she can make informed decisions as she begins her gluten free diet.

I tried my best. I meant no disrespect to anyone. Not at all.

I do, however, strive for accuracy in information (as best we know it) for the newly diagnosed.

Perhaps this topic deserves a different thread for discussion.
IH
  • 1

"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


#42 Gemini

 
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Posted 22 January 2012 - 11:39 PM

Many thanks to you, Skylark for providing more supportive information regarding food intolerances for Corky.

As was my original intent--to provide suggestions for the original poster --and any other reader new to the forum--so she can make informed decisions as she begins her gluten free diet.

I tried my best. I meant no disrespect to anyone. Not at all.

I do, however, strive for accuracy in information (as best we know it) for the newly diagnosed.

Perhaps this topic deserves a different thread for discussion.
IH


I think you explained food intolerances quite well, IrishHeart, and your explanation was 100% correct. If some choose not to believe the truth, then there isn't much you can do to help them. The hardest part is getting across to people how long recovery can take and in that process, you may not be able to tolerate other foods for awhile. There is evidence that oatmeal can be cross reactive because of the similar structure to wheat gluten but dairy does not cross react with gluten.

I don't think you were rude at all.....some people become quite defensive when they shouldn't be. All you can do is hope they educate themselves for a better understanding of how this disease works.
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#43 vb10

 
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:38 AM

"I do, however, strive for accuracy in information (as best we know it) for the newly diagnosed."

Okay, here is a new research out there providing cross-reactivity to corn. And cross-reactivity to lactose has already been established.

http://www.springerl...723t3n722317x5/


Research on other grains will follow.

Just wanted to update you on your strive for accuracy.
  • -2

#44 Skylark

 
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:18 PM

Okay, here is a new research out there providing cross-reactivity to corn. And cross-reactivity to lactose has already been established.


http://www.springerl...723t3n722317x5/

Research on other grains will follow.

Interesting stuff but didn't you read the paper? The authors specifically ruled out cross-reaction with anti-gliadin antibodies. They go on to say that cross-reactivity not supported by their sequence analysis either.

"In addition, after a pre-incubation of the sera with gliadins the IgA indexes anti-zeins were still the same as before incubation, while IgA indexes anti-gliadins were negative. Therefore, the anti-zeins indexes are not due to cross-reactivity between them and gliadins which suggests the production of specific antibodies against zeins in celiac disease patients."

This is a separate set of antibodies to corn zein that it seems some celiacs have. It supports folks on the board who get gluten-like reactions for corn for sure! I hope there are some follow-up studies on this.

Also cross-reactivity to lactose is not established. Cross-reactivity to casein was demonstrated in a few celiacs in a small study. It could use some more research though.
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