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Beware B Vitamin Toxicity!


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#16 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:03 AM

Could It Be B12 – An Epidemic of Misdiagnoses - 2nd Edition by Sally M. Pacholok, R.N., B.S.N. Jeffrey J. Stuart, D.O.

I should add: the serum b12 test ALONE is not the best.



I see, so what additional tests ARE recommended, then? or how do they determine if it is NOT pernicious anemia? and what is their research based on--do they say?? thanks! you've got my attention...
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"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


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#17 SGRhapsodos

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:09 AM

I too believe in getting all your vitamins & minerals from a balanced diet & have always felt that way. In fact my mom taught us that. However, for right now, until my gut heals & I can get the benefit from my food; I need & feel much better from taking supplements. I am going to stop them as soon as it's safe to do so. I'm looking forward to that day.


Best of luck to you!!!! It's a long road for all of us but with education and experience we can all have a healthy boy again!!!
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#18 Ninja

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:11 AM

From what I remember they suggested the serum b12, urinary MMA and homocysteine... I'll have to go back and look as I think I might be forgetting one. They identified people whose serum b12 levels fall under 500 as in the "gray zone." They spoke a lot about the symptoms - levels connection and found that people whose levels fall under 500 (particularly levels under 450) could benefit from supplementation. There are lists of references usually 2-3 pages long after every chapter. I could go through and type them all out if you'd like, but that would be a little tedious. :lol:

Oh - I will have to go back and look at the pernicious anemia bit as I do not want to relay the wrong info.
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#19 SGRhapsodos

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:13 AM

I may just point out that the serum B12 test is not the best at identifying a B12 deficiency. Most of the ranges (in the U.S.) are too low given that many people with higher LEVELS still have the symptoms of a deficiency. So, while having testing done should be helpful... make sure it's the right kind because not all doctors are clued in on vitamins and minerals. :)

Thanks for making us aware of this.


Good to know! I'm still taking the b12 supplement until I feel like I don't need it anymore. The one I've definitely stopped is the b6 because I was having those convulsions. I'm waiting to pee it out now. Been to the bathroom like 5 times today and it's only 11 am here lol. Thanks for the info. I love these forums because you guys have more info than any doctor. Seriously, my first GI doctor told me to go online and that's what I did. Saved my life.
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#20 squirmingitch

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:16 AM

From what I remember they suggested the serum b12, urinary MMA and homocysteine... I'll have to go back and look as I think I might be forgetting one. They identified people whose serum b12 levels fall under 500 as in the "gray zone." They spoke a lot about the symptoms - levels connection and found that people whose levels fall under 500 (particularly levels under 450) could benefit from supplementation. There are lists of references usually 2-3 pages long after every chapter. I could go through and type them all out if you'd like, but that would be a little tedious. :lol:

Oh - I will have to go back and look at the pernicious anemia bit as I do not want to relay the wrong info.


Do you have a scanner? You could scan it & then upload it here???????? Save an awful lot of typing.
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Self diagnosed dh Sept. 2011~~~ confirmed dx July 18, 2012
Gluten free Dec. 2011
Soy free Dec. 2011
Hubs self diagnosed dh March 30, 2012
Hubs gluten free March 30, 2012

Summer 2013 We both have added back a little soy which is near unavoidable & we are doing okay with that small amount.

 


#21 Ninja

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:19 AM

Smart thinking, there. B)

Our old one doesn't work and I'm not entirely sure where the scanner is located in our new one... but my stomach is rumbling and telling me it's time for breakfast. I will figure it out though! :)
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Gluten Free 2/12 

 

Let the soul speak with the silent articulation of a face

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#22 AVR1962

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:20 AM

There's wonderful safe vitamin guidelines on the Internet. I know some docs have prescribed large amounts to patients who are struggling to absorb. Many of us really do need these vits to help us regain our health but like the original post says we do all have to be careful with certain vitamins but that should not scare off anyone in need.

B vits have wonderful benefits, not just for people who are deficient. Not long ago I was in a doc's office here in Germany getting a treatment for my back. One of the things the German doc told me is that they use B and C vitamins for numbness and tingling for nerve pain. They put a whole IV of vits thru me and I felt wonderful!

Diabetics, HIV suffers, MS patients, etc find relief from nerve pain using specially formulated b complexes. I think you have to read the labels and stay within the limits provided unless you are under a doc's care for anything higher. If you are supplementing I think it is a good idea to have regular blood tests to check your levels.

I was a bit shocked at my last doc appt when he told me my D was slightly elevated. I didn't even know how but that is something I have to be careful with because I have problems with kidney stones. And me the sun worshipper!
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Yesterday is not ours to recover but today is ours to win or lose!

Miscarriage, Kidney stones, Anemia, Pneumonia, Migraines, Restless leg, Bone fractures, Blurred/Double vision, Extreme fatigue, Bone & Joint Pain, Thyroid nodule, Celiac diagnosed 2011, Spine and leg bone loss, GERD, Vitamin deficiencies, Malabsorbtion, Neuropathy issues, Ataxia, Raynaud's Syndrome. Currently on diet with limited grain and sugar.

#23 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:14 AM

From what I remember they suggested the serum b12, urinary MMA and homocysteine... I'll have to go back and look as I think I might be forgetting one. They identified people whose serum b12 levels fall under 500 as in the "gray zone." They spoke a lot about the symptoms - levels connection and found that people whose levels fall under 500 (particularly levels under 450) could benefit from supplementation. There are lists of references usually 2-3 pages long after every chapter. I could go through and type them all out if you'd like, but that would be a little tedious. :lol:

Oh - I will have to go back and look at the pernicious anemia bit as I do not want to relay the wrong info.


Pernicious anemia is a decrease in red blood cells that occurs when your intestines cannot properly absorb vitamin B12.

No need to do all that typing or scanning! Too much work. I just wanted to know HOW she came up with the additional tests that she says should be used IN connection with the serum B-12 test ?
I am just curious!

Elevated homocysteine levels can occur for a variety of reasons (post-menopausal women for example can have elevated levels)

but in essence, what you are saying is,

if a doctor suspects a B-12 def and the B-12 levels are "within normal range" and the patient still has B-12 symptoms (which mimic everything from a stroke to Alzheimer's), there are other tests that may help determine a B-12 def?
  • 0

"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


#24 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:23 AM

.... but with education and experience we can all have a healthy boy again!!!


I know this is just a typo--but it cracked me up. :lol:

I pictured this young, good looking guy who.....

but I digress! :)
  • 1

"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


#25 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:38 AM

One of the things the German doc told me is that they use B and C vitamins for numbness and tingling for nerve pain. They put a whole IV of vits thru me and I felt wonderful!Diabetics, HIV suffers, MS patients, etc find relief from nerve pain using specially formulated b complexes. I think you have to read the labels and stay within the limits provided unless you are under a doc's care for anything higher. If you are supplementing I think it is a good idea to have regular blood tests to check your levels.



Yes and
I think it is very important to note that neuropathy is caused by many medical conditions, like MS and diabetes and shingles, etc. ---not just a B-12 deficiency.

So whenever a new person comes on here and says "I have numbness and tingling", many members say "Take B-12!" ...but,
that is not necessarily wise because we do not know the CAUSE of that person's neuropathic pain.

What if it's something else and the member just blindly supps with mega-doses of B-12??

Yes, it is probably from the celiac--but what if it is something ELSE? Also, someone could throw all the vitamin B-12 in the world down there, but if the person does not determine the CAUSE of those symptoms, what good does it do?

I have high levels of B-12 now ---and I still have neuropathic pain, for example.
IMHO
  • 0

"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


#26 squirmingitch

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:55 AM

I know this is just a typo--but it cracked me up. :lol:

I pictured this young, good looking guy who.....

but I digress! :)


Cracked me up too. I was thinking along the same lines IH.Posted Image



  • 0

Self diagnosed dh Sept. 2011~~~ confirmed dx July 18, 2012
Gluten free Dec. 2011
Soy free Dec. 2011
Hubs self diagnosed dh March 30, 2012
Hubs gluten free March 30, 2012

Summer 2013 We both have added back a little soy which is near unavoidable & we are doing okay with that small amount.

 


#27 Ninja

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:17 AM

Pernicious anemia is a decrease in red blood cells that occurs when your intestines cannot properly absorb vitamin B12.

No need to do all that typing or scanning! Too much work. I just wanted to know HOW she came up with the additional tests that she says should be used IN connection with the serum B-12 test ?
I am just curious!

Elevated homocysteine levels can occur for a variety of reasons (post-menopausal women for example can have elevated levels)

but in essence, what you are saying is,

if a doctor suspects a B-12 def and the B-12 levels are "within normal range" and the patient still has B-12 symptoms (which mimic everything from a stroke to Alzheimer's), there are other tests that may help determine a B-12 def?


Yes, kind of like the thyroid testing. Most doc's only test TSH but TSH only gets at part of the picture. Conversely, a stroke or Alzheimer's can mimic a B12 deficiency.

I know what pernicious anemia is but you asked how she dx's/tests for it. That was the info I didn't want to garble. ;) Here's a quote:

"This diagnosis [pernicious anemia] is properly reserved for the autoimmune phenomenon that results in disease and dysfunction of the stomach (gastric atrophy, poor stomach acid production, intrinsic factor deficiency, and gastric autoantibodies directed against intrinsic factor and/or parietal cells)."

And another:

"Diagnosing Pernicious Anemia: A Note For Physicians

The criteria for the diagnosis of autoimmune pernicious anemia (PA) include:

1. Presence of corpus-restricted atrophy, with or without a spared antrum, as shown by EGD of the stomach.
2. Presence of hyperplasia of enterochromaffin-like (ECL) cells.
3. Hypochlorhydria or achlorhydria (poor or no stomach acid).
4. Elevated fasting serum gastrin.
5. Decreased levels of pepsinogen I.
6. Anti-parietal cell antibody (is found in 90% of people with PA, but its specificity is only 50%)
7. Anti-intrinsic factor antibody (is very specific for PA, but has a low sensitivity of 50%)"



As for the various tests and their explanations — I will scan them in as soon as I can because it is way too long for me to type – but very valuable, IMO. :)
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Gluten Free 2/12 

 

Let the soul speak with the silent articulation of a face

~Rumi
 

 


#28 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:59 AM

Cracked me up too. I was thinking along the same lines IH.Posted Image


where are our heads??? :lol:
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"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


#29 IrishHeart

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:06 AM

Yes, kind of like the thyroid testing. Most doc's only test TSH but TSH only gets at part of the picture. Conversely, a stroke or Alzheimer's can mimic a B12 deficiency.

I know what pernicious anemia is but you asked how she dx's/tests for it. That was the info I didn't want to garble. ;) Here's a quote:

"This diagnosis [pernicious anemia] is properly reserved for the autoimmune phenomenon that results in disease and dysfunction of the stomach (gastric atrophy, poor stomach acid production, intrinsic factor deficiency, and gastric autoantibodies directed against intrinsic factor and/or parietal cells)."

And another:

"Diagnosing Pernicious Anemia: A Note For Physicians

The criteria for the diagnosis of autoimmune pernicious anemia (PA) include:

1. Presence of corpus-restricted atrophy, with or without a spared antrum, as shown by EGD of the stomach.
2. Presence of hyperplasia of enterochromaffin-like (ECL) cells.
3. Hypochlorhydria or achlorhydria (poor or no stomach acid).
4. Elevated fasting serum gastrin.
5. Decreased levels of pepsinogen I.
6. Anti-parietal cell antibody (is found in 90% of people with PA, but its specificity is only 50%)
7. Anti-intrinsic factor antibody (is very specific for PA, but has a low sensitivity of 50%)"



As for the various tests and their explanations — I will scan them in as soon as I can because it is way too long for me to type – but very valuable, IMO. :)



Hold on, hon. You're doing too much work!! :) Maybe I am not making myself clear in what I am asking, sorry! :unsure:

I know how the medical community tests for pernicious anemia...
here is what I am asking:

How does the author of this book --someone who self-diagnosed her B-12 anemia--suggest doctors should determine that a B-12 deficiency exists BESIDES using the B-12 serum test--if (as she says) the standard B-12 test is insufficient?

Can't you just summarize the list of tests??

I don't mean to make your work so hard!!! :)
  • 0

"Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is. The way we cope with it makes the difference." Virginia Satir

"The strongest of all warriors are these two - time and patience." Leo Tolstoy

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else" Booker T. Washington

“If idiots could fly, the sky would be like an airport.”― Laura Davenport 

"Do or do not. There is no try. "-  Yoda.

"LTES"  Gem 2014

 

Misdiagnosed for 25+ years; Finally Diagnosed with Celiac  11/01/10.  Double DQ2 genes. This thing tried to kill me. I view Celiac as a fire breathing dragon --and I have run my sword right through his throat.
I. Win. bliss-smiley-emoticon.gif


#30 Ninja

 
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:15 AM

OH. Lol, don't worry about the work! Sorry!

Serum B12, urinary/serum MMA, HCY test, HoloTC test. OR if the level falls below 450 do a trial of B12 supplementation. Wish I could get the scans to you. Attaching through this forum software is wonky. :lol: Hopefully I'm understanding you correctly this time. ;)
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Gluten Free 2/12 

 

Let the soul speak with the silent articulation of a face

~Rumi
 

 





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