Some gluten-free Bread May Not Be Gluten Free!

[sreese68]

For those of you who are eating corn and feeling great, I read on this, and other forums, that if you are a true celiac even the smallest amount of gluten can cause damage to your intestines, whether or not you feel the damage. If corn contains gluten aren't you concerned about that? If not, why?

As I understand it, all grass family seeds contain gluten. This includes wheat, rye, barley, rice, corn, oats, etc. I want to say sorghum does, too, but I'm not actually sure. HOWEVER, MOST people with celiac only react to the type of gluten in wheat, rye, and barley. The glutens in wheat are called gliadin and glutenin. (Can't remember if rye and barley's glutens have a different name. Sorry!) So technically, we should specifically be avoiding gliadin and glutenin instead of all glutens. Corn gluten, rice gluten, and oat gluten (someone can supply the specific name for me! LOL!) are all different proteins and most celiacs don't react to them. Much like how someone who reacts to beef doesn't react to pork. They're both meat, but they have different compositions. Does that make sense?

So my body doesn't freak out when I eat the gluten in corn. Or white rice.

[Scott Adams]

One of the basic tenants of a celiac diagnosis is to also try and exclusionary diet to find other foods that might cause you issues, as many celiacs also react to milk, corn, oats, soy, etc., but these are considered separate intolerance issues and not part of celiac disease. The fact that some celiacs can't tolerate corn is not new news, and I've writing about this for many years on this site.

Take care,

Scott

PS - Which is why on The Gluten-Free Mall you can filter out those items and sort products by those other ingredients.

[DogWalkerNYC]

Below is a blurb from an article by Dr. Manik G. Hiranandani about corn gluten. Dr. H. graduated in medicine from the Armed Forces in Pune India in 1980. He then trained in cardiology and internal medicine at Bombay University. To read the entire article go to:

Open Original Shared Link

For those of you still saying 'we are responsible, etc.' please read my earlier posts. The experts are as responsible as we are. And for those of you bashing GFS because 'the guy sells his own products', I'm sure you've heard of the very famous Dr. Andrew Weil, from Harvard Medical School, who, among other things, sells products, books, etc. Are you suggesting because he does those things Dr. Weil is not a man to be respected? I hope your thinking is broader than that.

I am just a fellow sufferer trying to make sense of all of this. Part of having food issues involves finding trustworthy sources of info and products. It is unethical not to notify the people who buy your products that some of your customers may have problems with some of your products. You can choose to argue that point, and many of you have. But as a business owner myself I am telling you it is unethical not to post a disclaimer about products you're selling which might, eventually, kill some of your customers.

Here is the blurb from Dr. H. about corn gluten:

Types of Gluten allergy

There appear to be 2 types of gluten allergies. In type 1 gluten allergy the patient is allergic to the gluten in wheat and corn and can tolerate the gluten in oats, barley and rye. This is usually acquired later in life and is due to pesticide residues in the wheat and corn.

Type 2 gluten allergy is the more severe type. In this the patient is allergic to the gluten in wheat, corn oats, barley and rye . All these substances need to be avoided. This usually begins in the early months of infancy when wheat based foods are introduced and usually lasts through life.

Gluten allergy is rarely suspected or diagnosed, and can cause a wide range of problems like indigestion, gas, flatulence, stomach pain, hyperacidity, diarrhoea, Ulcerative colitis, peptic ulcers, hyperactive or aggressive behaviour, dyslexia, backaches, fatigue, chronic fatigue syndrome, muscle pains, cancer of the muscles (Sarcomas), cancer of the lymph nodes, diabetes, asthma, infertility, eczema, depression, epilepsy, loss of memory, abnormal behaviour including schizophrenia.

When we eat food containing wheat or corn which contains pesticides, the body may create antibodies to certain specific segments of their main protein called gluten. Every grain has it's own type of gluten. The gluten in wheat & corn are similar and usually a cross allergy exists between them. Gluten is also present in other grains like oats, barley & rye. Fortunately as pesticide usage in these grains is less than for wheat and corn, allergy to these types of gluten is uncommon and these grains may often be safely used as a substitute for wheat and corn. Your physician can advise you about whether these grains are appropriate for you to eat.

Allergy to wheat and corn is increasingly seen both in adults and children, due to the widespread use of pesticides and chemical fertilizers in growing these grains. In contrast people who eat organic grain have a much lower incidence of gluten allergy. With safe inputs in agriculture, the grains too will be safe to eat.

In my experience with food allergies over the last 20 years, I have found gluten allergies to be associated with a wide range of illnesses (some of which are mentioned above). Coeliac disease also called Ulcerative colitis or Irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) is often associated with gluten allergy.

Fatima was a young lady who had been suffering from bleeding in the stools for over a year. Her haemoglobin was constantly low she was being treated with and steroids without much improvement. I examined her, diagnosed a gluten allergy and advised abstinence from wheat and corn. Over the next year she recovered fully. The only times her symptoms returned over the next 10 years was when she strayed from her diet.

Problems due to gluten allergy, respond well to the complete stopping of wheat and corn and the patient recovers promptly without needing any drugs.

[ravenwoodglass]

I am just a fellow sufferer trying to make sense of all of this. Part of having food issues involves finding trustworthy sources of info and products. It is unethical not to notify the people who buy your products that some of your customers may have problems with some of your products. You can choose to argue that point, and many of you have. But as a business owner myself I am telling you it is unethical not to post a disclaimer about products you're selling which might, eventually, kill some of your customers.

There is a 'disclaimer' on every package of food sold. It is called an ingredient list. If I had a peanut allergy I would expect the label of a product to say it had peanuts. And it would be my responsibility to read that label. I do not expect my local Wegmans to hang a big sign up on the door saying 'We sell products with peanuts'.

[ciamarie]

I unsub'd from the GFS newsletter, after reading an article that was somewhat alarmist but had almost no references. It was something about many gluten-free foods containing high levels of gluten, I believe. I even left a comment, but it said it was pending approval, I don't know if it was ever approved for posting or not. My comment asked whether the (allegedly gluten-free) items that were tested were labeled as gluten-free, or not? And where were the details on what products were tested, etc.

I decided I didn't find it to be credible.

[Darn210]

Exactly. This forum, and other similar forums and resources, are here to help people navigate through this situation.

As a fellow sufferer wouldn't it have been helpful when you first started out if you were made aware of some of the innuendos of dealing with celiac? Do you really think the better way is to learn by (painful, damaging) trial and error? Wouldn't you have appreciated being told, on some of these information sites, that some celiacs react to corn or soy or nightshades, etc.

You need to read more posts . . . Anytime there is a member expressing their concern that they are still having problems, the active membership offers their advice on eating cleanly and investigating additional food intolerances (including dairy, soy, nightshades and yes, corn). That is what a forum does . . . it shares personal experiences. One size does not fit all. One disclaimer does not fit all.

[tom]

...

But if this info is correct, ...

...

That's the thing - it's not.

The terminology is unfortunately context-dependent. In botanical science, grains have the same principal anatomical components. Three are bran, germ & gluten.

In food science the word gluten means ONLY the gluten that's harmful to people like us. It's a pretty ridiculous way to define something, but that's the way it is. Wheat, barley & rye harm every celiac. Rice gluten (botanical definition) & corn gluten don't. It should really be a different word in one case or another.

If that newsletter is freaking out about corn gluten, the author is either too new to know what's what or has motivations beyond providing honest info.

[DogWalkerNYC]

One of the basic tenants of a celiac diagnosis is to also try and exclusionary diet to find other foods that might cause you issues, as many celiacs also react to milk, corn, oats, soy, etc., but these are considered separate intolerance issues and not part of celiac disease. The fact that some celiacs can't tolerate corn is not new news, and I've writing about this for many years on this site.

Take care,

Scott

PS - Which is why on The Gluten-Free Mall you can filter out those items and sort products by those other ingredients.

Unfortunately, either you guys are just not understanding me, or choosing to ignore my point. When a newbie comes to the celiac website or The Gluten-Free Mall, before that newbie knows what works and what doesn't, it would be nice if the website or the store selling the food products had a disclaimer, or a welcome page, advising newbies about some of this technical stuff. 'Welcome Newbie, we're glad you found us. Enjoy our site or store. Here are some things you might want to be aware of as you make your purchases, etc."

Scott, on the celiac.com website you list corn as an acceptable food on a gluten free diet, with no mention that it may not be appropriate for some people. You say: "In any case, as far as we know, corn does not seem to cause harm to celiac patients."

Would it hurt to say that corn may be harmful to some people? Do you see what I'm saying? I'm coming to you for current, accurate information and making a blanket statement that corn does not seem to cause harm, etc. is absolutely not accurate across the board.

[DogWalkerNYC]

Especially since corn is such an iffy food with so much controversy surrounding it's safety for celiacs. How could a website, called celiac.com not mention that? I expected the celiac.com website to be the gold standard of current, up-to-date info and resources. I expected to find lists of safe foods, unsafe foods, controversial foods. Do you not believe the tests that 'the product guy' mentioned in his article? Do you not believe any of the controversy? If not, it should at least be mentioned on a site called celiac.com. I will call the product guy back Monday to get more info about the testing, and maybe I'll call Dr. H. in India. This is my life and my health.

[tom]

Below is a blurb from an article by Dr. Manik G. Hiranandani about corn gluten. Dr. H. graduated in medicine from the Armed Forces in Pune India in 1980. He then trained in cardiology and internal medicine at Bombay University. To read the entire article go to:

Open Original Shared Link

...

Here is the blurb from Dr. H. about corn gluten:

Types of Gluten allergy

There appear to be 2 types of gluten allergies. ...

...

Celiac & an actual gluten allergy are two different things involving different mechanisms. He's not talking about celiac at all.

This discussion is, at its heart, just a misunderstanding about valid uses of the word gluten. Plant science gluten vs food science gluten.

Corn gluten & rice gluten are valid terms in some circles, but only generate confusion in the celiac world. Really really wish we had different words.

[DogWalkerNYC]

I don't even understand what you just said. I'm just sitting here scratching my DH arms bloody. But the fact that I don't understand what you said solidifies my point. That when I come to a website called celiac.com, or glutenfreemall.com I expect all the noise in my head to somehow become quieter. I am coming to you for your expertise and experience. I want to know that some people have problems with corn, or soy, etc. In my attempt to feel better I would not have bought those products had I known they're controversial.

For those who said "I am responsible, etc." how does one, responsible for her own health and well-being, make appropriate choices and decisions if the experts one goes to for advice and support leaves important info out of websites?

Do you kind of see my point?? I'm not a mind reader. I'm doing what I'm suppose to do by going to the experts. I am being responsible, etc. Are the experts?

[Lisa]

I don't even understand what you just said.

Now that I understand!

[tom]

Looking through the GFS site I see the July 17 article claiming "gluten-free bread damages celiacs".

A recent study found that patients with celiac disease can react to

[DogWalkerNYC]

Now that I understand!

If that's all you understand from my posts I'm very sorry for you. This is not a game.

[kareng]

You seem to not understand the word gluten, maybe? That was what Tom was trying to tell you. We missuse the word gluten when we say "gluten free diet". All grains have gluten. The types of gluten have different names and are different. However, it has become the custom to call the gluten types in wheat, rye and barley 'gluten".

Your article mentions allergies. Celiac is not an allergy but some Celiacs have a wheat allergy, too. My BIL has a wheat allergy but not Celiac.

[Lisa]

If that's all you understand from my posts I'm very sorry for you. This is not a game.

It was an attempt at some humor - it never hurts. I was laughing because I find Tom difficult to understand at times, also. And he's a friend!

You know DW, we can all agree to disagree.

[DogWalkerNYC]

This is from National Digestive Diseases Information Clearinghouse, updated January 27, 2012. Is this recent enough for you?

"Some people with celiac disease show no improvement on the gluten-free diet. The most common reason for poor response to the diet is that small amounts of gluten are still being consumed. Hidden sources of gluten include additives such as modified food starch, preservatives, and stabilizers made with wheat. And because many corn and rice products are produced in factories that also manufacture wheat products, they can be contaminated with wheat gluten."

The following is from September 2, 2010 from Infonolan:

"Suitability Rate for Coeliac Disease

Most of us know that gluten is found in wheat, rye, barley and oats. It is typically present in these cereal grains, which are present in many of our everyday processed foods.

We do not know, at this point in time, whether corn gluten is safe for individuals with Coeliac Disease. There has been some disturbing evidence on the effects of corn on coeliac disease as a fair proportion of those on gluten free diets have been required to avoid corn due to similar reactions to that from wheat, rye, barley and oats.

There are brands around in Australia who's gluten free products now are also corn free. This also suggests some interesting background to the subject. Additionally, the prolamins in corn (zein) have not been adequately studied as to their adverse effect on Coeliac Disease. Due to this, it remains questionable as to whether corn is necessary to avoid on a gluten free diet.

Below is a list of prolamins (i.e. plant storage proteins having a found in the seeds of cereal grains):

wheat (gliadin),

rye (secalin)

barley (hordein)

oat (avenin)

corn (zein)

It's a heart sinking feeling when thinking about all that tempting food with corn derivatives and all in all, however this is one I would say you will have to make your own choice about.

The article with relation to Chinese Herbs makes mention of the fact that corn and oats are possibly in a similar category, with regard to gluten.

And me? I just ate a packet of Doritos Original Corn Chips, and I will admit I do seem to feel a slight sensation in my stomach after eating large amounts of milled corn. So maybe it may be an idea for YOU to investigate this further. I have included some relevant posts and articles for your information.

In conclusion:

Corn contains gluten, as do all grains. Whether the effects of corn on individuals is directly or indirectly related to coeliac disease remains somewhat a mystery. Perhaps the long-term effects may also be an issue. This poses a new question to go and think about: How can something be gluten free if it contains a grain that contains gluten (i.e. corn, rice, millet, etc.)? I guess it has come to be just like individuals refer to a vacuum flask as a Thermos (after the brand name Thermos) and a pen as a Biro. Interesting how the English language adapts itself to society! Hmmm...

Enjoy your hunt!

[kareng]

you know "infonolan" is a 20 year old kid, right?

[ravenwoodglass]

I don't even understand what you just said. I'm just sitting here scratching my DH arms bloody. But the fact that I don't understand what you said solidifies my point. That when I come to a website called celiac.com, or glutenfreemall.com I expect all the noise in my head to somehow become quieter. I am coming to you for your expertise and experience. I want to know that some people have problems with corn, or soy, etc. In my attempt to feel better I would not have bought those products had I known they're controversial.

For those who said "I am responsible, etc." how does one, responsible for her own health and well-being, make appropriate choices and decisions if the experts one goes to for advice and support leaves important info out of websites?

Do you kind of see my point?? I'm not a mind reader. I'm doing what I'm suppose to do by going to the experts. I am being responsible, etc. Are the experts?

Things will become clearer in time. If you are pretty new to the diet you may be going through withdrawl which can make our brains kind of 'muddy' and make us a bit irritable. If you have recently been glutened then the same thing can happen. We are all trying to tell you that the gluten is corn is different from the gluten in wheat. Are there people that will be sensitive to it, yes. Is it a celiac related issue, no.

If you DH is acting up do be sure to drop iodized salt from your diet and be aware that it can take some time for the antibodies to leave your skin. Be sure to read the 'Celiac 101' stuff for newbies and there are lists of safe and unsafe items FROM A CELIAC STANDPOINT on the main page of the site. This is a board for celiac and gluten intolerant people. We have a wide variety of people here who have been dealing with celiac and the diet and lifestyle for many years. No one is trying to decieve you or give you false information. But we can not know if you are intolerant to other things. Only your body can tell you that. If you seem to be reacting to corn drop corn out of your diet for now and see if the issues resolve.

edited to add: Newbie 101 can be found on the top of the coping page.

[ravenwoodglass]

you know "infonolan" is a 20 year old kid, right?

He also speaks of having a reaction to Doritio's in the post. Many Lay's products are made on shared lines so some of us do have to avoid them from a CC standpoint. That is why Lay's gives two lists. One of items made that are known to be gluten free and another list, a very long one, of their products made that have a CC risk. A reaction to CC is not the same as having a celiac reaction to corn.

[kareng]

He also speaks of having a reaction to Doritio's in the post. Many Lay's products are made on shared lines so some of us do have to avoid them from a CC standpoint. That is why Lay's gives two lists. One of items made that are known to be gluten free and another list, a very long one, of their products made that have a CC risk. A reaction to CC is not the same as having a celiac reaction to corn.

Not objecting to that. Don't know about the Doritos in Australia back then. Could be cc at the factory. Just saying, she's not really a good medical resource.

[ravenwoodglass]

Not objecting to that. Don't know about the Doritos in Australia back then. Could be cc at the factory. Just saying, she's not really a good medical resource.

Just to be clear the list I refer to is the US one. Processing and products may be different in Australia.

[DogWalkerNYC]

You seem to not understand the word gluten, maybe? That was what Tom was trying to tell you. We missuse the word gluten when we say "gluten free diet". All grains have gluten. The types of gluten have different names and are different. However, it has become the custom to call the gluten types in wheat, rye and barley 'gluten".

Your article mentions allergies. Celiac is not an allergy but some Celiacs have a wheat allergy, too. My BIL has a wheat allergy but not Celiac.

As you probably know I am new to this whole thing. I'm coming to you as the newbie I described earlier. I am told to maintain a gluten-free diet and that it's OK to include corn in my diet. All this I understand. No problem.

So I eat corn and do my best to only eat acceptable foods. Why am I not told, either on the celiac.com site or the mall site that corn has a long history of being controversial. Doesn't celiac.com owe it to me and to all of us to at the very least mention that some foods are somewhere in the middle between acceptable and not acceptable?

Why is corn on the acceptable list if it may or may not be based on the person?

One of my first posts in this forum was to ask why the research mentioned gluten sensitivity, gluten intolerance, gluten allergy and celiac disease as being different levels of the same disease. Yet the first line on the celiac website says that celiac disease is also known as gluten intolerance.

There just doesn't seem to be one answer to any particular question. When I asked one of the moderators about the difference in sensitivity, intolerance, celiac he implied the site was written a long time ago and that was the feeling at the time.

I don't want to base my decisions on data that was written so long ago that it's not even accurate. I feel like this is a condition that's in the process of becoming. There is not one authority giving me a straight answer. This is our health and our lives and there is not one authority that agrees with another.

If something is iffy I want to know about it from the experts, not from trial and error, after I'm sick and miserable.

I feel like some people here take the label and run with it. 'I'm celiac, I'm celiac'. How many people have asked how long it takes to heal, etc. Some are suffering for a year, some longer. Are any of those people considering that food products they thought were safe maybe are not safe for them? Maybe they're only celiac because they're continuing to poison themselves.

Are any of them considering maybe corn is destroying their intestines, although it's on the 'Safe' list. I laugh at the comments that I have to take responsibility for my own health. Are these people who are constantly suffering taking responsibility or are they taking the word of a website that apparently hasn't been updated in a very long time.

I do not have time for this condition and I need to get rid of it. And I will do whatever it takes to make that happen. All I ask is that the experts I come to for advice offer me current, accurate advice and info. If not here I will find it elsewhere.

[Jestgar]

Corn alone does not cause a Celiac reaction. Someone with a damaged intestine might react to anything. Corn is high on that 'anything' list, as is soy. casein, and some other things. If you read the posts on this site, you'll find that someone who mentions not feeling well after months of gluten-free gets two main types of advice: 1) check all your products/medicines/pet foods for wheat contamination. and 2) try an elimination diet/food diary/remove common problem proteins.

[ravenwoodglass]

Why is corn on the acceptable list if it may or may not be based on the person?

Ya know I could say the same thing about soy. I would have healed faster if I had known in the beginning that I couldn't tolerate it but I didn't know and no one could tell me. It wasn't until I started making notes of ingredients on products that made me sick and saw that soy was the common denominator that I removed it and then had more good days than bad and then healed fully. It wasn't however a gluten reaction. After some time some of us can tell the difference between a reaction to gluten and our own reactions to what we may also be intolerant to. It does take time though. We don't get sick overnight and we don't heal overnight and no one can give us all the answers.