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Some gluten-free Bread May Not Be Gluten Free!


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90 replies to this topic

#31 Darn210

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:33 PM

Exactly. This forum, and other similar forums and resources, are here to help people navigate through this situation.

As a fellow sufferer wouldn't it have been helpful when you first started out if you were made aware of some of the innuendos of dealing with celiac? Do you really think the better way is to learn by (painful, damaging) trial and error? Wouldn't you have appreciated being told, on some of these information sites, that some celiacs react to corn or soy or nightshades, etc.


You need to read more posts . . . Anytime there is a member expressing their concern that they are still having problems, the active membership offers their advice on eating cleanly and investigating additional food intolerances (including dairy, soy, nightshades and yes, corn). That is what a forum does . . . it shares personal experiences. One size does not fit all. One disclaimer does not fit all.
  • 2
Janet

Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.


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#32 tom

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:37 PM

...
But if this info is correct, ...
...

That's the thing - it's not.

The terminology is unfortunately context-dependent. In botanical science, grains have the same principal anatomical components. Three are bran, germ & gluten.

In food science the word gluten means ONLY the gluten that's harmful to people like us. It's a pretty ridiculous way to define something, but that's the way it is. Wheat, barley & rye harm every celiac. Rice gluten (botanical definition) & corn gluten don't. It should really be a different word in one case or another.

If that newsletter is freaking out about corn gluten, the author is either too new to know what's what or has motivations beyond providing honest info.
  • 7
>>>>>>> tom <<<<<<<

Celiac 1st diagnosed as a toddler, in the 60s. Docs then, between bloodletting & leech-tending, said "he'll grow out of it" & I was back on gluten & mostly fine for 30yrs.

Gluten-free since 12-03
Dairy-free since 10-04
Soy-free since 5-07

#33 DogWalkerNYC

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:40 PM

One of the basic tenants of a celiac diagnosis is to also try and exclusionary diet to find other foods that might cause you issues, as many celiacs also react to milk, corn, oats, soy, etc., but these are considered separate intolerance issues and not part of celiac disease. The fact that some celiacs can't tolerate corn is not new news, and I've writing about this for many years on this site.

Take care,
Scott

PS - Which is why on The Gluten-Free Mall you can filter out those items and sort products by those other ingredients.


Unfortunately, either you guys are just not understanding me, or choosing to ignore my point. When a newbie comes to the celiac website or The Gluten-Free Mall, before that newbie knows what works and what doesn't, it would be nice if the website or the store selling the food products had a disclaimer, or a welcome page, advising newbies about some of this technical stuff. 'Welcome Newbie, we're glad you found us. Enjoy our site or store. Here are some things you might want to be aware of as you make your purchases, etc."

Scott, on the celiac.com website you list corn as an acceptable food on a gluten free diet, with no mention that it may not be appropriate for some people. You say: "In any case, as far as we know, corn does not seem to cause harm to celiac patients."

Would it hurt to say that corn may be harmful to some people? Do you see what I'm saying? I'm coming to you for current, accurate information and making a blanket statement that corn does not seem to cause harm, etc. is absolutely not accurate across the board.
  • -2
Laura Grace

65 years old. Diagnosed with GERD at age 63. Started feeling bloated after eating bread & rolls in 2012. After doing online research ate gluten-free for a week & symptoms resolved. Symptoms returned when I glutened. That's good enough for me. Because testing is often inconclusive will not get tested. In 2012 had colonoscopy and endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi. In February, 2013 had capsule endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi or intestines. Diagnosed by gastroenterologist with 'probable non-Celiac sensitivity. Time to get serious before damage occurs.

#34 DogWalkerNYC

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:58 PM

Especially since corn is such an iffy food with so much controversy surrounding it's safety for celiacs. How could a website, called celiac.com not mention that? I expected the celiac.com website to be the gold standard of current, up-to-date info and resources. I expected to find lists of safe foods, unsafe foods, controversial foods. Do you not believe the tests that 'the product guy' mentioned in his article? Do you not believe any of the controversy? If not, it should at least be mentioned on a site called celiac.com. I will call the product guy back Monday to get more info about the testing, and maybe I'll call Dr. H. in India. This is my life and my health.
  • -2
Laura Grace

65 years old. Diagnosed with GERD at age 63. Started feeling bloated after eating bread & rolls in 2012. After doing online research ate gluten-free for a week & symptoms resolved. Symptoms returned when I glutened. That's good enough for me. Because testing is often inconclusive will not get tested. In 2012 had colonoscopy and endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi. In February, 2013 had capsule endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi or intestines. Diagnosed by gastroenterologist with 'probable non-Celiac sensitivity. Time to get serious before damage occurs.

#35 tom

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:03 PM

Below is a blurb from an article by Dr. Manik G. Hiranandani about corn gluten. Dr. H. graduated in medicine from the Armed Forces in Pune India in 1980. He then trained in cardiology and internal medicine at Bombay University. To read the entire article go to:
My link
...

Here is the blurb from Dr. H. about corn gluten:

Types of Gluten allergy

There appear to be 2 types of gluten allergies. ...
...

Celiac & an actual gluten allergy are two different things involving different mechanisms. He's not talking about celiac at all.

This discussion is, at its heart, just a misunderstanding about valid uses of the word gluten. Plant science gluten vs food science gluten.
Corn gluten & rice gluten are valid terms in some circles, but only generate confusion in the celiac world. Really really wish we had different words.
  • 5
>>>>>>> tom <<<<<<<

Celiac 1st diagnosed as a toddler, in the 60s. Docs then, between bloodletting & leech-tending, said "he'll grow out of it" & I was back on gluten & mostly fine for 30yrs.

Gluten-free since 12-03
Dairy-free since 10-04
Soy-free since 5-07

#36 DogWalkerNYC

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:13 PM

I don't even understand what you just said. I'm just sitting here scratching my DH arms bloody. But the fact that I don't understand what you said solidifies my point. That when I come to a website called celiac.com, or glutenfreemall.com I expect all the noise in my head to somehow become quieter. I am coming to you for your expertise and experience. I want to know that some people have problems with corn, or soy, etc. In my attempt to feel better I would not have bought those products had I known they're controversial.

For those who said "I am responsible, etc." how does one, responsible for her own health and well-being, make appropriate choices and decisions if the experts one goes to for advice and support leaves important info out of websites?

Do you kind of see my point?? I'm not a mind reader. I'm doing what I'm suppose to do by going to the experts. I am being responsible, etc. Are the experts?
  • 0
Laura Grace

65 years old. Diagnosed with GERD at age 63. Started feeling bloated after eating bread & rolls in 2012. After doing online research ate gluten-free for a week & symptoms resolved. Symptoms returned when I glutened. That's good enough for me. Because testing is often inconclusive will not get tested. In 2012 had colonoscopy and endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi. In February, 2013 had capsule endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi or intestines. Diagnosed by gastroenterologist with 'probable non-Celiac sensitivity. Time to get serious before damage occurs.

#37 Lisa

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:21 PM

I don't even understand what you just said.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Now that I understand! :P
  • 2
Lisa

Gluten Free - August 15, 2004

"Not all who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

#38 tom

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:33 PM

Looking through the GFS site I see the July 17 article claiming "gluten-free bread damages celiacs".

A recent study found that patients with celiac disease can react to “gluten free” bread made with maize (corn) protein. Serum IgA was measured against the prolamine in corn. Previous studies have found similar reactions with corn in patients with gluten sensitivity. Source: J. Agric. Food Chem, 2008, 56 (4), pp 1387–1391.


A study from 2008 is called "recent".

There's a Chicken Little aspect to much of what I read on that site. He's totally scaremongering about the 2 distinct usages of the word gluten.

You'd be better off reading less there & more here (or more at other major medical & celiac sites)
  • 4
>>>>>>> tom <<<<<<<

Celiac 1st diagnosed as a toddler, in the 60s. Docs then, between bloodletting & leech-tending, said "he'll grow out of it" & I was back on gluten & mostly fine for 30yrs.

Gluten-free since 12-03
Dairy-free since 10-04
Soy-free since 5-07

#39 DogWalkerNYC

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:40 PM

:lol: :lol: :lol: Now that I understand! :P


If that's all you understand from my posts I'm very sorry for you. This is not a game.
  • -2
Laura Grace

65 years old. Diagnosed with GERD at age 63. Started feeling bloated after eating bread & rolls in 2012. After doing online research ate gluten-free for a week & symptoms resolved. Symptoms returned when I glutened. That's good enough for me. Because testing is often inconclusive will not get tested. In 2012 had colonoscopy and endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi. In February, 2013 had capsule endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi or intestines. Diagnosed by gastroenterologist with 'probable non-Celiac sensitivity. Time to get serious before damage occurs.

#40 kareng

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:48 PM

You seem to not understand the word gluten, maybe? That was what Tom was trying to tell you. We missuse the word gluten when we say "gluten free diet". All grains have gluten. The types of gluten have different names and are different. However, it has become the custom to call the gluten types in wheat, rye and barley 'gluten".

Your article mentions allergies. Celiac is not an allergy but some Celiacs have a wheat allergy, too. My BIL has a wheat allergy but not Celiac.
  • 4

Thanksgiving dinners take 18 hours to prepare.  They are consumed in 12 minutes.  Half-times take 12 minutes.  This is not a coincidence.  - Emma Bombeck
 
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#41 Lisa

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

If that's all you understand from my posts I'm very sorry for you. This is not a game.

It was an attempt at some humor - it never hurts. I was laughing because I find Tom difficult to understand at times, also. And he's a friend!

You know DW, we can all agree to disagree. B)
  • 1
Lisa

Gluten Free - August 15, 2004

"Not all who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

#42 DogWalkerNYC

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:06 PM

This is from National Digestive Diseases Information Clearinghouse, updated January 27, 2012. Is this recent enough for you?

"Some people with celiac disease show no improvement on the gluten-free diet. The most common reason for poor response to the diet is that small amounts of gluten are still being consumed. Hidden sources of gluten include additives such as modified food starch, preservatives, and stabilizers made with wheat. And because many corn and rice products are produced in factories that also manufacture wheat products, they can be contaminated with wheat gluten."

The following is from September 2, 2010 from Infonolan:

"Suitability Rate for Coeliac Disease

Most of us know that gluten is found in wheat, rye, barley and oats. It is typically present in these cereal grains, which are present in many of our everyday processed foods.

We do not know, at this point in time, whether corn gluten is safe for individuals with Coeliac Disease. There has been some disturbing evidence on the effects of corn on coeliac disease as a fair proportion of those on gluten free diets have been required to avoid corn due to similar reactions to that from wheat, rye, barley and oats.

There are brands around in Australia who's gluten free products now are also corn free. This also suggests some interesting background to the subject. Additionally, the prolamins in corn (zein) have not been adequately studied as to their adverse effect on Coeliac Disease. Due to this, it remains questionable as to whether corn is necessary to avoid on a gluten free diet.

Below is a list of prolamins (i.e. plant storage proteins having a found in the seeds of cereal grains):

wheat (gliadin),

rye (secalin)

barley (hordein)

oat (avenin)

corn (zein)


It's a heart sinking feeling when thinking about all that tempting food with corn derivatives and all in all, however this is one I would say you will have to make your own choice about.

The article with relation to Chinese Herbs makes mention of the fact that corn and oats are possibly in a similar category, with regard to gluten.

And me? I just ate a packet of Doritos Original Corn Chips, and I will admit I do seem to feel a slight sensation in my stomach after eating large amounts of milled corn. So maybe it may be an idea for YOU to investigate this further. I have included some relevant posts and articles for your information.

In conclusion:

Corn contains gluten, as do all grains. Whether the effects of corn on individuals is directly or indirectly related to coeliac disease remains somewhat a mystery. Perhaps the long-term effects may also be an issue. This poses a new question to go and think about: How can something be gluten free if it contains a grain that contains gluten (i.e. corn, rice, millet, etc.)? I guess it has come to be just like individuals refer to a vacuum flask as a Thermos (after the brand name Thermos) and a pen as a Biro. Interesting how the English language adapts itself to society! Hmmm...

Enjoy your hunt!
  • 0
Laura Grace

65 years old. Diagnosed with GERD at age 63. Started feeling bloated after eating bread & rolls in 2012. After doing online research ate gluten-free for a week & symptoms resolved. Symptoms returned when I glutened. That's good enough for me. Because testing is often inconclusive will not get tested. In 2012 had colonoscopy and endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi. In February, 2013 had capsule endoscopy which showed no damage to the villi or intestines. Diagnosed by gastroenterologist with 'probable non-Celiac sensitivity. Time to get serious before damage occurs.

#43 kareng

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:08 PM

you know "infonolan" is a 20 year old kid, right?
  • 1

Thanksgiving dinners take 18 hours to prepare.  They are consumed in 12 minutes.  Half-times take 12 minutes.  This is not a coincidence.  - Emma Bombeck
 
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#44 ravenwoodglass

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:10 PM

I don't even understand what you just said. I'm just sitting here scratching my DH arms bloody. But the fact that I don't understand what you said solidifies my point. That when I come to a website called celiac.com, or glutenfreemall.com I expect all the noise in my head to somehow become quieter. I am coming to you for your expertise and experience. I want to know that some people have problems with corn, or soy, etc. In my attempt to feel better I would not have bought those products had I known they're controversial.

For those who said "I am responsible, etc." how does one, responsible for her own health and well-being, make appropriate choices and decisions if the experts one goes to for advice and support leaves important info out of websites?

Do you kind of see my point?? I'm not a mind reader. I'm doing what I'm suppose to do by going to the experts. I am being responsible, etc. Are the experts?


Things will become clearer in time. If you are pretty new to the diet you may be going through withdrawl which can make our brains kind of 'muddy' and make us a bit irritable. If you have recently been glutened then the same thing can happen. We are all trying to tell you that the gluten is corn is different from the gluten in wheat. Are there people that will be sensitive to it, yes. Is it a celiac related issue, no.
If you DH is acting up do be sure to drop iodized salt from your diet and be aware that it can take some time for the antibodies to leave your skin. Be sure to read the 'Celiac 101' stuff for newbies and there are lists of safe and unsafe items FROM A CELIAC STANDPOINT on the main page of the site. This is a board for celiac and gluten intolerant people. We have a wide variety of people here who have been dealing with celiac and the diet and lifestyle for many years. No one is trying to decieve you or give you false information. But we can not know if you are intolerant to other things. Only your body can tell you that. If you seem to be reacting to corn drop corn out of your diet for now and see if the issues resolve.

edited to add: Newbie 101 can be found on the top of the coping page.
  • 5
Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying
"I will try again tommorrow" (Mary Anne Radmacher)


celiac 49 years - Misdiagnosed for 45
Blood tested and repeatedly negative
Diagnosed by Allergist with elimination diet and diagnosis confirmed by GI in 2002
Misdiagnoses for 15 years were IBS-D, ataxia, migraines, anxiety, depression, fibromyalgia, parathesias, arthritis, livedo reticularis, hairloss, premature menopause, osteoporosis, kidney damage, diverticulosis, prediabetes and ulcers, dermatitis herpeformis
All bold resoved or went into remission with proper diagnosis of Celiac November 2002
Some residual nerve damage remains as of 2006- this has continued to resolve after eliminating soy in 2007

Mother died of celiac related cancer at 56
Twin brother died as a result of autoimmune liver destruction at age 15

Children 2 with Ulcers, GERD, Depression, , 1 with DH, 1 with severe growth stunting (male adult 5 feet)both finally diagnosed Celiac through blood testing and 1 with endo 6 months after Mom


Positive to Soy and Casien also Aug 2007

Gluten Sensitivity Gene Test Aug 2007
HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0303

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0303

Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 3,3 (Subtype 9,9)

#45 ravenwoodglass

 
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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:14 PM

you know "infonolan" is a 20 year old kid, right?


He also speaks of having a reaction to Doritio's in the post. Many Lay's products are made on shared lines so some of us do have to avoid them from a CC standpoint. That is why Lay's gives two lists. One of items made that are known to be gluten free and another list, a very long one, of their products made that have a CC risk. A reaction to CC is not the same as having a celiac reaction to corn.
  • 1
Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying
"I will try again tommorrow" (Mary Anne Radmacher)


celiac 49 years - Misdiagnosed for 45
Blood tested and repeatedly negative
Diagnosed by Allergist with elimination diet and diagnosis confirmed by GI in 2002
Misdiagnoses for 15 years were IBS-D, ataxia, migraines, anxiety, depression, fibromyalgia, parathesias, arthritis, livedo reticularis, hairloss, premature menopause, osteoporosis, kidney damage, diverticulosis, prediabetes and ulcers, dermatitis herpeformis
All bold resoved or went into remission with proper diagnosis of Celiac November 2002
Some residual nerve damage remains as of 2006- this has continued to resolve after eliminating soy in 2007

Mother died of celiac related cancer at 56
Twin brother died as a result of autoimmune liver destruction at age 15

Children 2 with Ulcers, GERD, Depression, , 1 with DH, 1 with severe growth stunting (male adult 5 feet)both finally diagnosed Celiac through blood testing and 1 with endo 6 months after Mom


Positive to Soy and Casien also Aug 2007

Gluten Sensitivity Gene Test Aug 2007
HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0303

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0303

Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 3,3 (Subtype 9,9)




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