29 replies to this topic

[Seeking2012]

Ok so I've been thinking about this. If your body is making AGA-IgG or AGA-IgA, doesn't that mean that your body is having an immune reaction to gluten?

AGA-IgG and AGA-IgA are antibodies. Antibodies are products that the body makes in response to what the body thinks is a foreign invader that needs to be killed off. It's an immune response.

If your body is creating ANY sort of immune response to gluten, doesn't that mean you need to stop eating gluten? Long-term low-level immune activity over the long-term could lead to autoimmune diseases or put the body in a state of oxidative stress, right?

What percentage of the population makes AGA-IgG/AGA-IgA antibodies?

[peeptoad]

I've thought about this as well (and also in relation to thyroid disease). I had antibodies present on my celiac blood test, but they were below the level used to diagnose celiac, so I was labeled "non-celiac gluten intolerant" or something like that.
I've also had thryoid anitbodies show up on tests before (and I do have some thyroid-type symptoms), but was told my thyroid was fine because they again below the level used to DX.

[gatita]

I have been wondering this too!!!

I don't understand why the experts say that "some" anti-gliadin antibodies are "normal." Do we produce "some" antibodies for everything we eat?

I'd love to know the answer!

[CaveMum]

According to Dr Rodney Ford :


".....look for evidence of gluten harm: this is to make the diagnosis of gluten-sensitivity (reactions to gluten without the gut damage).

• Anti gliadin antibody IgG (Also called IgG-gliadin antibody)
• Anti gliadin antibody IgA (Also called IgA-gliadin antibody)

A positive test shows that you have an immune reaction to gluten. This might not be causing symptoms yet. Most gluten-sensitive people have a high IgG-gliadin test."

[nvsmom]

My guess is how much we react is the issue. If you compare it to hay fever, some people react really badly and sneeze, swell, get running eyes and noses,hives, and feel horrible when there is pollen in the air, others might just sneeze a few times. Wheat is probably an irritant to many but is only really bad for some... but that is just my guess.

[Seeking2012]

Ok I've thought about this more deeply and now I have all kinds of new questions.

1. Does the fact that the body CAN make an antibody against gluten inherently mean the body is coded to recognize gluten as an antigen (as in, you are born thinking that gliadin is an antigen)? Or does it mean that the body taught itself later on how to make an antibody against gliadin?

2. When the immune system produces antibodies against gliadin, is this a reaction of a "confused" immune system which mistakenly thinks that gliadin is an antigen? Is the immune system wrong about this? What tells the immune system that something is an antigen?

3. The immune system, as we all know, does make mistakes. For example, when it makes killer cells that attack the "self" cells in an autoimmune response, I would consider that to be a confused mistake that the immune system makes. But how did the immune system get confused and think that the "self" cells were antigens or pathogens?

4. How does the immune system make antibodies against a cell it thinks is an antigen or a pathogen? Does this information need to be pre-coded into our DNA, or can the immune system make antibodies against anything and everything that it thinks is an invader? What are the restrictions and limitations on this?

[nvsmom]

I think your questions are great, but I don't think the medical community is close to answering them. they only admitted there was such a thing as autoantibodies about 50 years ago... It does seem that once the body gets confused once, it gets confused again and again. My body has attacked my intestines, thyroid and platelets; I think it would be naive to assume it won't ever attack anything else in me.... something is definitely "off".

Docotrs are investigating a few avenues for causes. I've read about toxins (food and environmental) causing an autoimmune reaction to start. trauma starts it in some, and viruses like EBV are known to kick stat some immune problems. There seems to be a genetic link too.

I doubt they'll figure it out in my lifetime.

[Luddie]

I've come to the same conclusion about the possibility of finding the "answers" in my lifetime. But, I'm still plugging away at eating as gluten-free as I possibly can. My doctor is even more of a stickler on other things, too, like certain foods that are heavy on latex (I'm allergic as are many people apparently), and especially on the balance of Omega 3 and Omega 6s. He has had me on many supplements for the past several years. Yes, I'm sick of taking pills, but I don't have migraines anymore, or cramps in my legs. I've lost about 20 pounds that I needed to lose, and in general my blood tests are coming out pretty well. My major problem is arthritis-like pains, but even they have gotten better using some mild medications (which I'm currently trying to wean myself off of). I'm not "in the pits" like I was for a while (a year or so?!) when I felt absolutely overwhelmed in trying to care for myself when I really didn't feel I knew enough all the while trying to explain to my large family what was happening. Even though loving and caring, they simply didn't know how to help either, except listen and not laugh too much at whatever current "weird" elimination diet I was on! I still get teased and my doctor gets laughed at, too, for "making it up as he goes along." That's okay by me. I want a doctor who is willing to learn from the latest research and change his mind if he feels it right to do so. Anyhow, for those of you just starting on this journey, hang in there. This Forum really helped me during some dark, late computer nights! Thanks to all the dear people who care.

[1desperateladysaved]

I had a blood test which tested for antibodies for 60 or so foods. Of the foods I eat (nearly all tested) I did not have antibodies for 11 of them. The result was I went on a rotational diet, and I am feeling better.

Diana

[plumbago]

Here's my attempt. The numbers are mine, and not meant to refer to the sequence of your questions.

[1]
"When antigens (foreign substances that invade the body) are detected, several types of cells work together to recognize them and respond. These cells trigger the B lymphocytes to produce antibodies, specialized proteins that lock onto specific antigens.

"Once produced, these antibodies continue to exist in a person's body, so that if the same antigen is presented to the immune system again, the antibodies are already there to do their job. So if someone gets sick with a certain disease, like chickenpox, that person typically doesn't get sick from it again.

"This is also how immunizations prevent certain diseases. An immunization introduces the body to an antigen in a way that doesn't make someone sick, but does allow the body to produce antibodies that will then protect the person from future attack by the germ or substance that produces that particular disease.

"Although antibodies can recognize an antigen and lock onto it, they are not capable of destroying it without help. That's the job of the T cells, which are part of the system that destroys antigens that have been tagged by antibodies or cells that have been infected or somehow changed. (Some T cells are actually called "killer cells.") T cells also are involved in helping signal other cells (like phagocytes) to do their jobs.

"Antibodies also can neutralize toxins (poisonous or damaging substances) produced by different organisms. Lastly, antibodies can activate a group of proteins called complement that are also part of the immune system. Complement assists in killing bacteria, viruses, or infected cells.

"All of these specialized cells and parts of the immune system offer the body protection against disease. This protection is called immunity."

SOURCE: http://kidshealth.or...ics/immune.html

[2]
"Under certain situations, gliadin (digested gluten) can get to the lamina propria, where it will it will be deamidated (roughly: altered) by tissue transglutaminae (an enzyme). This is a very important step because deamidated gliadine can combine with HLA DQ2 and HLA-DQ8 (genetic markers) on the antigen-presenting cell (macrophages and B cells strategically located in places places antigens are likely to penetrate, including the GI tract) and then will be presented to the T cell, which will secrete cytokines."

From a grand rounds lecture, by Dr Hasan H. Hasan from a couple of years ago, who in turn got much of his information from Fasano (I think). I found it on iTunes U.

[3]
"Patients with Celiac disease create antibodies to gliadin, but these antibodies can also be found in other conditions and in normal people."

Celiac Disease: A Hidden Epidemic (not that much help if you ask me!)

[4]
But how did the immune system get confused and think that the "self" cells were antigens or pathogens?

Picking Dr Hasan back up again (and this is just a slightly educated guess to your question):
" The deamidated gliadin has high affinity for HLA2 and HLA8 (I think he means HLA DQ2, etc), which you have if you have Celiac disease. They are both on the antigen-presenting cell. Will be presented to the T cell. The T cell secretes cytokines which cause pathological changes we see in celiac disease. At the same time, it will also cause stimulation and expansion of B cells and B cells will produce the antibodies which we screen for when we try to diagnose celiac disease."

[U Gluten Free]

The body produces large amounts of IgA antibodies, and these are thought to provide a protective "coating" to the intestine. Antibodies to different foods and microorganisms are common. There is no evidence that the presence of anti-gluten IgA antibodies is important in celiac disease or gluten sensitivity.

[GottaSki]

The body produces large amounts of IgA antibodies, and these are thought to provide a protective "coating" to the intestine. Antibodies to different foods and microorganisms are common. There is no evidence that the presence of anti-gluten IgA antibodies is important in celiac disease or gluten sensitivity.

I am not clear with regard to your statement.

Are you speaking of anti-gliadin antibodies? Both IgA and IgG anti-gliadin antibodies are important measurements in the diagnosis of celiac disease.

Of course the Deamidated Gliadin Peptide tests are preferable to the AGA tests, but this does not make them obsolete.

[mushroom]

The body produces large amounts of IgA antibodies, and these are thought to provide a protective "coating" to the intestine. Antibodies to different foods and microorganisms are common. There is no evidence that the presence of anti-gluten IgA antibodies is important in celiac disease or gluten sensitivity.

The lab ranges for negative, weak positive, and positive, acknowledge that we all produce IgA antibodies. And in fact the total serum IgA measures that we produce sufficient amounts of IgA antibodies for the testing to be valid. It is the number of antibodies that determines whether or not one has celiac disease, not the actual presence of one or more antibodies. Since all the celiac testing done by alleopathic medicine is based on anti-gliadin antibodies, I would like to see your citations for the statements you are making.

[U Gluten Free]

I am not clear with regard to your statement.

Are you speaking of anti-gliadin antibodies? Both IgA and IgG anti-gliadin antibodies are important measurements in the diagnosis of celiac disease.

Of course the Deamidated Gliadin Peptide tests are preferable to the AGA tests, but this does not make them obsolete.

The lab ranges for negative, weak positive, and positive, acknowledge that we all produce IgA antibodies. And in fact the total serum IgA measures that we produce sufficient amounts of IgA antibodies for the testing to be valid. It is the number of antibodies that determines whether or not one has celiac disease, not the actual presence of one or more antibodies. Since all the celiac testing done by alleopathic medicine is based on anti-gliadin antibodies, I would like to see your citations for the statements you are making.

Hi gottaski,

Hi mushroom,

The guidelines for diagnosis have continued to be refined over the years. No doubt, individual physicians will use their discretion regarding what approaches to use in their diagnosis, and antibody tests are just part of the picture. However, as far as i can tell, serology to measure levels of anti-gliadin antibodies is no longer the preferred approach.

I listed couple of the most recent and thorough reviews of this topic below. They are consistent with the informational found on the websites of several clinical research centers.

1. A consensus-building session held in 2012, resulting in the "Oslo Definitions"

The Oslo definitions for coeliac disease and related terms
Gut 2013;62:43–52. doi:10.1136/gutjnl-2011-301346 = http://gut.bmj.com/c...2/1/43.full.pdf

"After introduction in the 1980s, IgA antibodies against wheat gliadin (AGAs) served as the best serological test for celiac disease for some years. However, the low positive predictive value meant that this test has since been abandoned for the investigation of celiac disease, except for in children younger than 18 months, in whom IgA AGA seems to have high sensitivity. Recently, assays for IgA and IgG antibodies against DGP have been introduced and perform similarly to TTG-based tests."

2. World Gastroenterology Organisation Global Guidelines
Celiac disease http://www.worldgast..._long_FINAL.pdf

[GottaSki]

Hi gottaski,

Hi mushroom,

The guidelines for diagnosis have continued to be refined over the years. No doubt, individual physicians will use their discretion regarding what approaches to use in their diagnosis, and antibody tests are just part of the picture. However, as far as i can tell, serology to measure levels of anti-gliadin antibodies is no longer the preferred approach.

I listed couple of the most recent and thorough reviews of this topic below. They are consistent with the informational found on the websites of several clinical research centers.

1. A consensus-building session held in 2012, resulting in the "Oslo Definitions"

The Oslo definitions for coeliac disease and related terms
Gut 2013;62:43–52. doi:10.1136/gutjnl-2011-301346 = http://gut.bmj.com/c...2/1/43.full.pdf

"After introduction in the 1980s, IgA antibodies against wheat gliadin (AGAs) served as the best serological test for celiac disease for some years. However, the low positive predictive value meant that this test has since been abandoned for the investigation of celiac disease, except for in children younger than 18 months, in whom IgA AGA seems to have high sensitivity. Recently, assays for IgA and IgG antibodies against DGP have been introduced and perform similarly to TTG-based tests."

2. World Gastroenterology Organisation Global Guidelines
Celiac disease http://www.worldgast..._long_FINAL.pdf

Thank you for clarifying your original statement with regard to "anti-gluten" antibodies.

I concur with these articles - in most cases the DGP should be used rather than the AGA - for those with confusing serology the AGA can be used as part of the work-up.

The key point is that gliadin peptide or protein antibody measurement is an important part of the diagnostic process.