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    Gluten Sensitivity Triggers Epileptoid Cramping Syndrome in Border Terriers


    Jefferson Adams

    Celiac.com 02/15/2016 - Gluten sensitivities have been documented in some dogs, but now researchers have the first solid evidence that gluten is the culprit behind a movement disorder in Border Terriers known as Epileptoid Cramping Syndrome (CECS).

    Photo: Wikimedia CommonaThere have been anecdotal reports that these dogs might respond to a gluten-free diet, but no clinical studies. This changed recently, when a team of researchers set out to assess the clinical and serological benefits of a gluten-free diet in Bornder Terriers with CECS.

    The research team included M. Lowrie, O. A. Garden, M. Hadjivassiliou, R.J. Harvey, D.S. Sanders, R. Powell, and L. Garosi. They are variously associated with the Davies Veterinary Specialists in Hitchin, UK, the Department of Clinical Sciences and Services of Royal Veterinary College in Hatfield, UK., the Department of Neurology at Royal Hallamshire Hospital in Sheffield, UK., the Department of Pharmacology, UCL School of Pharmacy in London, UK., the Department of Gastroenterology at Royal Hallamshire Hospital, Sheffield, UK., and with Powell Torrance Diagnostic Services in Higham Gobion, UK.

    The team evaluated a group of six client-owned Bornder Terriers with clinically confirmed CECS. The dogs all had at least a 6-month history of CECS, with their symptoms observed and confirmed using video, and each had exhibited at least 2 separate episodes on different days.

    The team tested the dogs for anti-transglutaminase 2 (TG2 IgA) and anti-gliadin (AGA IgG) antibodies at presentation, and 3, 6, and 9 months after the introduction of a gluten-free diet. They performed duodenal biopsy on 1 dog. Their results showed that, upon presentation, 6 of 6 dogs had increased serum TG2 IgA levels (P = .006), and 5 of 6 dogs had increased AGA IgG levels, compared to those of controls (P = .018).

    After 9 months on a strict gluten-free diet, 5 of the 6 dogs showed clinical and serological improvement with CECS. The one dog that had persistently high antibody levels apparently scavenged local horse manure, which contained gluten. However, this dog, too improved after the introduction of a strict gluten-free diet. So, all of the affected dogs eventually responded favorably to a gluten-free diet.

    To further demonstrate the connection, two dogs suffered relapses after gluten was reintroduced into their diets. In Border Terriers, canine epileptoid cramping syndrome is caused, and perpetuated by, an adverse reaction to gluten, and thus responds well to a gluten-free diet.

    The takeaway for owners of Border Terriers is to keep an eye on their dogs, and work with their vets if they suspect canine epileptoid cramping syndrome; which can be effectively treated with a gluten-free diet.

    Source:

    J Vet Intern Med. 2015 Nov;29(6):1564-8. doi: 10.1111/jvim.13643. Epub 2015 Oct 25.

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    Guest Jean Crenshaw

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    I have a border terrier who started having full blown episodes around age four (he is now 7). He has been on a grain free food since puppy hood and now, looking back realize the episodes began to a lesser degree when he was younger. I was giving him treats that weren't gluten free. He had his second full blown episode a year after the first one, then two months later, then one month and then every two weeks. The last time was five weeks ago (two in one night) but grand kids were here and he was eating all their crumbs-biscuits, cookies, etc. I have since changed him from grain free chicken to grain free salmon and peas--lower protein. So far he is doing much better and his stools are firmer than they have ever been. Also, forgot to say, his always happen in the middle of the night, waking from a sound sleep. I am hoping going totally grain free and lower protein will be the answer.

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    Guest Stacey Firth

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    I have been conducting my own research into CECS after my own dog suffered from these episodes. I have found that working with natural supplements and flower remedies that the episodes have decreased and are less severe. My dog was on a gluten free diet but now he can tolerate gluten. I currently have 18 Border terriers and 6 colitis sufferers on these supplements and I've had some brilliant results. I have tried to get my research recognized and published but to no avail.

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  • About Me

    Jefferson Adams earned his B.A. and M.F.A. at Arizona State University, and has authored more than 2,000 articles on celiac disease. His coursework includes studies in biology, anatomy, medicine, and science. He previously served as Health News Examiner for Examiner.com, and provided health and medical content for Sharecare.com.

    Jefferson has spoken about celiac disease to the media, including an appearance on the KQED radio show Forum, and is the editor of the book Dangerous Grains by James Braly, MD and Ron Hoggan, MA.

  • Related Articles

    Sayer Ji
    Approximately 70% of all American calories come from a combination of the following four foods: wheat, dairy, soy and corn - assuming, that is, we exclude calories from sugar.
    Were it true that these four foods were health promoting, whole-wheat-bread-munching, soy-milk-guzzling, cheese-nibbling, corn-chip having Americans would probably be experiencing exemplary health among the world's nations. To the contrary, despite the massive amount of calories ingested from these purported "health foods," we are perhaps the most malnourished and sickest people on the planet today. The average American adult is on 12 prescribed medications, demonstrating just how diseased, or for that matter, brainwashed and manipulated, we are.
    How could this be? After all, doesn't the USDA Food Pyramid emphasize whole grains like wheat above all other food categories, and isn’t dairy so indispensible to our health that it is afforded a category all of its own? 
    Unfortunately these “authoritative” recommendations go  much further in serving the special interests of the industries that produce these commodities than in serving the biological needs of those who are told it would be beneficial to consume them.  After all, grains themselves have only been consumed for 500 generations – that is, only since the transition out of the Paleolithic into the Neolithic era approximately 10,000 years ago.  Since the advent of homo sapiens 2.5 million years ago our bodies have survived on a hunter and gatherer diet, where foods were consumed in whole form, and raw!  Corn, Soy and Cow's Milk have only just been introduced into our diet, and therefore are “experimental” food sources which given the presence of toxic lectins, endocrine disruptors, anti-nutrients, enzyme inhibitors, indigestible gluey proteins, etc, don’t appear to make much biological sense to consume in large quantities - and perhaps, as is my belief, given their deleterious effects on health, they should not be consumed at all.
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    For one, wheat flour is used to make glues for book binding and wall-papering, as well as being the key ingredient for paper mache mortar. Sticky soy protein has replaced the need for formaldehyde based adhesives for making plywood, and is used to make plastic, composite and many other things you probably wouldn’t consider eating. The whitish protein known as casein in cow's milk is the active ingredient in Elmer's glue and has been used for paint since ancient times. Finally, corn gluten is used as a glue to hold cardboard boxes together. Eating glue doesn't sound too appetizing does it?  Indeed, when you consider what these sticky glycoproteins will do to the delicate microvilli inside our intestines, a scenario, nightmarish in proportions, unfolds. 
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    Of all four suspect foods Wheat, whose omnipresence in the S.A.D or Standard American Diet indicates something of an obsession, may be the primary culprit.  According to Clinical Pathologist Carolyn Pierini the wheat lectin called "gliadin" is known to to participate in activating NF kappa beta proteins which are involved in every acute and chronic inflammatory disorder including neurodegenerative disease, inflammatory bowel disease, infectious and autoimmune diseases.
    In support of this indictment of Wheat’s credibility as a “health food,” Glucosamine – the blockbuster supplement for arthritis and joint problems – has been shown to bind to and deactivate the lectin in wheat that causes inflammation. It may just turn out to be true that millions of Americans who are finding relief with Glucosamine would benefit more directly from removing the wheat (and related allergens) from their diets rather than popping a multitude of natural and synthetic pills to cancel one of Wheat’s main toxic actions. Not only would they be freed up from taking supplements like Glucosamine, but many would also be able to avoid taking dangerous Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs) like Tylenol, Aspirin and Ibuprofen, which are known to cause tens of thousands of cases of liver damage, internal hemorrhaging and stomach bleeding each and every year.
    One might wonder:  “How is it that if America's favorite sources of calories: Wheat and Dairy, are so obviously pro-inflammatory, immunosuppressive, and generally toxic, why would anyone eat them?”  ANSWER: They are powerful forms of socially sanctioned self-medication.
    Wheat and Dairy contain gliadorphin and gluten exorphins, and casomorphin, respectively.  These partially digested proteins known as peptides act on the opioid receptors in the brain, generating a temporary euphoria or analgesic effect that has been clinically documented and measured in great detail.  The Institute of Pharmacology and Toxicology in Magdeburg, Germany has shown that a Casein (cow's milk protein) derivative has 1000 times greater antinociceptive activity (pain inhibition) than morphine. Not only do these morphine like substances create a painkilling "high," but they can invoke serious addictive/obsessive behavior, learning disabilities, autism, inability to focus, and other serious physical and mental handicaps. 
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    As if this were not enough, Wheat, Dairy, and Soy also happen to have some of the highest naturally occurring concentrations of Glutamic Acid, which is the natural equivalent of monosodium glutamate. This excitotoxin gives these foods great "flavor" (or what the Japanese call umami) but can cause the neurons to fire to the point of death.  It is no wonder that with all these drug-like qualities most Americans consume wheat and dairy in each and every meal of their day, for each and every day of their lives.
    Whether you now believe that removing Wheat, Dairy, Soy and Corn from your diet is a good idea, or still need convincing, it doesn’t hurt to take the “elimination diet” challenge. The real test is to eliminate these suspect foods for at least 2 weeks, see how you feel, and then if you aren’t feeling like you have made significant improvements in your health, reintroduce them and see what happens.  Trust in your feelings, listen to your body, and you will move closer to what is healthy for you.
    This article owes much of its content and insight to the work of John Symes whose ground-breaking research on the dangers of wheat, dairy, corn and soy have been a great eye opener to me, and a continual source of inspiration in my goal of educating myself and others.


    Destiny Stone
    Pets and the Gluten-Free Diet
    Celiac.com 05/27/2010 - People don't generally think that the food they feed their pets not only affects their pets, but also impacts their lives as well. Going gluten-free in my house also meant going gluten-free for my pets. Your pets can't tell you if something is wrong. Just like my doctors had no idea that my problems were related to gluten, my veterinarian certainly would never suggest that my dog is gluten-intolerant! It is up to us as pet owners to realize that reoccurring health problems in our pets, could be an indication of  food intolerance's.
    Deciding to put my pets on a gluten-free diet was not a hard decision to make. My two year old lab/mix, Maya was constantly getting eye infections, which my vet disregarded as environmental allergies. The problem was she had allergies year round and was getting eye infections once a month-which we treated with antibiotics, and benadryl. My vet did not recommend dietary changes for my dog, but I took charge and decided to try a gluten-free diet anyway.
    Since putting Maya on a gluten-free diet, she has not had a single eye infection. She still has mild seasonal allergies, but nothing like she had when she was eating gluten-based dog food. Through my research I found that the first ingredient in dog and cat  food should be meat-which makes sense since they are carnivores. However, most pet food I found (including my previous “grain-free”pet food) listed the first ingredients as a grain; either oats, wheat, barley or rice.
    I recently had my cat tested for parasites. The results were that he had parasites from grain based foods. The vet told me that the parasites were harmless, but as long as I fed my cat grain-based foods, he would continue to test positive for intestinal mites. I switched his food to gluten-free immediately following his vet visit.  Since switching to a gluten-free/grain-free food for my pets, I have seen a huge improvement in all my pets overall health an well-being.
    Aside from the obvious health benefits for my pets, gluten-free food is also better for you. Now that my pets are all eating gluten-free diets, I no longer have to worry so much about possible cross-contamination from touching their food. I can now get slobbery kisses from my dogs worry free. I also no longer worry about washing my dog and cats food dishes in the same sink or with the same sponge as I use for my other dishes.
    Research  is the most important thing to do when looking for a gluten-free pet food.  There are quite a few grain-free options on the market, but be careful, 'grain-free' does not necessarily mean 'gluten-free'; contacting the manufacturer can help to dispel any concerns. Most commercial pet stores do not carry gluten-free pet food options. I found more gluten-free options at the mom and pop pet store I usually frequent. I did a lot of Internet research and talked to my local pet store endlessly to find the right product for my pets. However, you may need to special order your pet food through your pet store, or online. It is also important to introduce new foods to your pets gradually. It is always advised to mix your old food with the new food when first introduced. Ask your veterinarian what the best practice is for introducing new foods to your pets.
     It is also important to find out about product recalls, so as to avoid buying products that have been contaminated. The following link for the FDA  has current and updated information regarding product recalls for pet food and pet food products.

    FDA Pet Food Recalls Gluten-Free Pet Treats
    Many pet treats contain wheat as the first ingredient. When shopping for gluten-free pet treats, the best place to look is in products that are made entirely of meat. Dried chicken or duck strips for example are a wonderful gluten-free option. However, watch out for are any added filler ingredients-it's best to buy products with no fillers. Caution is also important when it comes to the manufacturing of  your pet food. I bought 100% pure duck strips for my dogs, but they both got diarrhea shortly after eating a couple of the treats. After looking more closely at the product, I realized that the ingredients were manufactured in China. I immediately tossed those treats and bought new treats that were made in USA-my dogs no longer have any problems. Trader Joe's also  carries some inexpensive gluten-free dog treats. However, if you do a Google search for gluten-free pet treats, you will see an endless list of possibilities. Making your own gluten-free dog treats is pretty easy. The following link will take you to some easy gluten-free pet treat recipes.
    Gluten-Free Pet Treat Recipes Gluten-Free Pet Supplies
    Some of the other, less obvious sources of gluten in your pets life can be found in the supplements and care products that you use. Check the ingredients for hidden "gluten" and contact the manufacturers whenever necessary. Keep your hands clean before and after applying any medications or products to your pets that contain gluten. I recently bought some pad moisturizure for Maya's cracked paws and realized the ingredients contained tocopherols -which could contain gluten. Before applying greasy gluten to your pets paws (which would be like asking them to finger-paint with gluten all over your home), contact the manufacturer to determine if all ingredients are gluten-free.Hairball Medicine
    I was using a fur ball gel for my cat. The gel requires me to administer it by putting a big glob on my cats paw, so he can lick it off. After reading the ingredients more carefully, I realized that I was putting a big glob of glutenous gel directly on my cat, and incidentally, on myself. If you use a fur-ball gel or any supplements that require you to get them on your hands, you will want to make sure they are gluten-free, or at least clean your hands thoroughly after using. Of course, if you are anything like me and you don't want to get gluten anywhere on your body, use a paper towel. Paper towels have been a blessing for me. I often use paper towels to create a barrier between me and possible gluten contamination. Simply put the hair ball gel on a bunched up paper towel and apply the gel to your pet-the gluten glob never has to touch your skin. There is also  a hairball gel capsule that you can give to your pets (mine refuses to eat them, but many pets like them), which doesn't involve you getting messy with a glutenous gel. Also, brushing your pet regularly will reduce the likelihood of them getting fur-balls. So find the right brush for your pet and try to incorporate brushing into your daily routine.
    Shampoos and Soaps
    Many pet shampoos and soaps, like people shampoos and soaps, contain gluten. Try to find a shampoo or soap that doesn't have any gluten ingredients if possible.  I use a tea-tree castile soap on my pets. Castile is naturally gluten-free and  is a gentle alternative to some of the harsh pet shampoos and soaps with unpronounceable ingredients I usually find on the market. If you can't use a gluten-free shampoo, make sure to rinse your pets very well and wash your hands thoroughly after bathing your pet.
    Toothpaste
    Most veterinarians recommend brushing your pets teeth at least three times per week. If you cannot brush their teeth for any reason, you should get their teeth cleaned professionally 1-2 times per year. Professional cleanings are much more expensive than brushing at home, so yes, I brush my pets teeth. Many pet toothpaste gels contain gluten. Obviously, finding a gluten-free toothpaste is ideal, however if that is not an option make sure to wash your hands thoroughly after coming into contact with any gluten containing products.
    Gluten-Free Quick Check:

    Use gluten-free pet food Use a gluten-free toothpaste Make homemade gluten-free pet treats Use a gluten-free hairball gel Wash your hands often

    Jefferson Adams
    02/01/2011 - Imagine having a dog that was specially-trained to sniff out even the tiniest amounts of gluten in food and warn you ahead of time. There are scores of people with celiac disease severe enough that the slightest trace of gluten can make them painfully ill. Hollie Scott is one of them. Scott is a University of Missouri College of Veterinary Medicine student is also lucky to have her dog Elias is a champion Beauceron and a gluten-detecter extraordinaire. The handsome Beauceron comes from a 400-year-old breed that became almost extinct serving as messenger dogs in Europe during two world wars. Even though he is just only 2 years old, Elias is the first male Beauceron to receive the title AKC Grand Champion. His full title is: GCH CH Elias Mes Yeux Vigilants RN. But Elias' regular job is working as a gluten-detection service dog for his twenty-two year old owner, Scott, a first-year student in the program.
    To become so accomplished at gluten-detection, Elias spent weeks in Slovenia undergoing intense gluten-detection training, and now he can detect and warn her away from anything containing gluten, hot or cold, in all its many forms. Teaching a dog to be alert to the scent of gluten is more challenging than other scent-detection training, precisely because gluten comes in so many forms. When it's time for Elias to do the sniff test for Scott, she places a cover with holes over the item, and the dog takes a sniff. If Elias smells gluten, he tries to pull the item away from her; if it's safe, he just looks away. To help Elias keep his edge, Scott tests him daily with known gluten-containing foods, and adds in products she hopes are gluten-free.
    Scott was diagnosed with celiac disease about two years ago after spending much time "in and out of hospitals" She's now acutely vigilant about checking labels and trying to avoid cross-contamination. "You can't drop your guard for even a minute," says Scott, who likens an attack to "a really extremely bad case of stomach flu" from which her body doesn't recover fully for nearly three weeks. That's where Elias works like a charm.


    Jefferson Adams
    Is Monsanto's Roundup Behind the Global Explosion of Celiac Disease?
    Celiac.com 03/06/2014 - Celiac disease is associated with various nutritional and reproductive issues, and increased risk of thyroid disease, kidney failure and certain cancers.
    For reasons yet unknown, over the last forty years, celiac disease, gluten intolerance and irritable bowel syndrome, have climbed to epidemic proportions.
    Is the rapid worldwide increase in celiac disease, gluten intolerance and irritable bowel syndrome a result of the rising use of Monsanto's glyphosate herbicide, sold as Roundup?
    Yes, according to a new US peer-reviewed paper from Dr. Anthony Samsel and Dr. Stephanie Seneff. Their research indicates that glyphosate is the primary cause of an emerging epidemic of celiac disease, gluten intolerance and irritable bowel syndrome. Their review appears in the Journal of Interdisciplinary Toxicology.
    According to Samsel and Seneff, glyphosate, the active ingredient in the herbicide, Roundup, "is the most important causal factor" in the global epidemic of celiac disease, gluten intolerance and irritable bowel syndrome.
    Stay tuned for more detailed summary of the nature, scope, methodology, and findings of the study itself. In the meantime, read the complete original review at sustainablepulse.com.

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    • Maureen and Cyclinglady, Of the foods you listed. . .. I would focus on the Chocolate. Chocolate has Tyramine in it and it could/can cause rashes that  might be confused for DH. Sometimes Tyramine get's confused for/in high sulfite foods as triggers. Here is a great overview article on this topic. http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/sc-red-wine-headache-health-0608-20160525-story.html you might also have trouble with headaches if it tyramine is causing you your trouble. People who have trouble Tyramine might also have trouble with consuming cheeses. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738414/ As for the Milk causing/triggering your DH don't rule Adult onset dairy allergy. While rare it does occur in the literature/research when you search it out. I am including the research here in the hopes it might help you or someone else entitled "Adult onset of cow's milk protein allergy with small‐intestinal mucosal IgE mast cells" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.1996.tb04640.x It is generally thought most of grow out of a Milk Allergy at approx. 3 years old. But for some lucky one (I guess) we never do apparently.  (I speak for my friend on this board JMG).  He found out he was having trouble with dairy as an adult better never realized until about 6 months ago. With delayed onset allergies it is often hard to tell if it (allergen) is effecting us because we might not associate it with our dairy consumption because it might happen a day or two latter. See this WHFoods article about food allergens/sensitivies.  It is very long/exhaustive but it is very helpful if you have time to study it in more detail. http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?pfriendly=1&tname=faq&dbid=30 I will quote some key points for your information. Symptoms of Food Allergies "The most common symptoms for food allergies include vomiting, diarrhea, blood in stools, eczema, hives, skin rashes, wheezing and a runny nose. Symptoms can vary depending upon a number of variables including age, the type of allergen (antigen), and the amount of food consumed. It may be difficult to associate the symptoms of an allergic reaction to a particular food because the response time can be highly variable. For example, an allergic response to eating fish will usually occur within minutes after consumption in the form of a rash, hives or asthma or a combination of these symptoms. However, the symptoms of an allergic reaction to cow's milk may be delayed for 24 to 48 hours after consuming the milk; these symptoms may also be low-grade and last for several days. If this does not make diagnosis difficult enough, reactions to foods made from cow's milk may also vary depending on how it was produced and the portion of the milk to which you are allergic. Delayed allergic reactions to foods are difficult to identify without eliminating the food from your diet for at least several weeks and slowly reintroducing it while taking note of any physical, emotional or mental changes as it is being reintroduced." Here is their information on Tyramine's. Tyramine "Reactions to tyramine (an amino acid-like molecule) or phenylalanine (another amino acid-like molecule) can result from eating the following foods: Fermented cheeses Fermented Sausage Chocolate Sour Cream Red wine Avocado Beer Raspberries Yeast Picked Herring Symptoms of tyramine intolerance can include urticaria (hives), angioedema (localized swelling due to fluid retention), migraines, wheezing, and even asthma. In fact, some researchers suggest that as many as 20 percent of migraines are caused by food intolerance or allergy, and tyramine intolerance is one of the most common of these toxic food responses." Here is an old thread on tyramine and especially how it can trigger headaches. https://www.celiac.com/forums/topic/95457-headache-culprit-is-tyramine/ I would also suggest your research a low histamine food diet.  Rashes/hives etc. can be triggered my disregulaton of histamine in the body. The other thing in chocolate that might be causing your problems is Sulfites. Here is a website dedicated to a Sulftie allergy. http://www.allergy-details.com/sulfites/foods-contain-sulfites/ Chocolate bars are on their list of sulfite contaning foods but probably most noted in dried fruits and red wine. Knitty Kitty on this board knows alot about a sulfite allergy. I want to go back to the possible dairy allergy for a second as a possible trigger. . .because it has been established as connected to DH . . .it is just not well known. Here is current research (as I said earlier) most dairy allergies are studied in children but it does occur in approx. 10 pct of the GP unless your of Asian descent where it is much more common. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29555204 quoting the new research from this year on children. "When CMP (Cow's Milk Protein) was re-introduced, anti-tTG increased, and returned to normal after the CMP was withdrawn again." and if adults can also (though rarely) it seem develop "Adult onset of cow's milk protein allergy with small‐intestinal mucosal IgE mast cells" (see research linked above) as the research shows  you should at least trial removing dairy from your diet if you haven't already and see if your DH doesn't come back when you re-introduce it. It just takes 15 or 20 years for medical doctor' to incorporate new research/thinking into clinical practice.  And note the research on this happening in adults is 20+ years old and as far I know doctor's . . . are not aware of this.  I know I wasn't until recently and I research things alot of to help myself and my friends. But I know you can't do what you don't know about.  So this is why I am trying to share what I learned so that other might be helped and this research might not  lay hidden another 20 years before doctor's and their Celiac/DH patients become aware of it. And if it helps you come back on the board and let us know so it can help others too! If it helps you it will/can help someone else! if they know it helped you then they will/can have hope it might help them too and why I share and research these things for others'. . . who don't know or don't have time to research this for themselves. I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice. Good luck on your continued journey. I know this is a lot of information to digest at one time but I hope at least some of if it helpful and you at least have a better idea of what in your chocolate could be causing your DH (idiopathic) as the doctor's say (of an unknown cause mild) DH symptom's. Or at least it is not commonly known yet that Milk can also cause trigger (DH) in children and adults who have a Milk allergy undiagnosed. . .because we don't don't typically think  or associate it with adults like maybe we should if we are not of Asian descent. Maureen if this doesn't help you you might want to start a thread in the DH section of the forum. As always  2 Timothy 2: 7   “Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things” this included. Posterboy by the grace of God,
    • I hooe you can get some answers with your new GI doc.
    • Many of us deal with doctor issues and diagnosis, you got a really bad draw indeed. Most doctors dismiss Celiac as their is no money in the cure for them IE a gluten free diet and not medications.

      Keep up updated on your new doctor and testing, good to see you finally found one that listens and can help, I got through on doc #5 I think it was.
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