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StClair

Questions About Crumbs

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Suppose bread crumbs fall into the silverware drawer. When you pick out your spoon, there are no crumbs attached. Is that spoon contaminated due to only molecules of gluten that could cling to the surface?

Another crumb (and maybe dumb) question. Suppose there are bread crumbs on one end of a stick of butter. The other end is crumb-free. Is that end OK, or not OK?

These questions are hypothetical, as I am newly diagnosed and extremely careful, but I am curious about limits and whether they apply to all celiac sufferers. There is plenty of gluten in my kitchen for the other family members, but I scrupulously avoid it, including in the above scenarios.

Thanks!


Celiac Disease, diagnosed April 1, 2015

Migraines, Esophagitis/Gastritis, Lower Digestive Issues, Osteoporosis, Anxiety, Arthritis, etc--some improving.

DQ2.2 and DQ2.5 trans

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As far as I know, the gluten you don't see can still make you ill.  It's better safe than sorry.  Wash the utensils and never used shared butter. Why take the risk, right?


Nicole 

"Acceptance is the key to happiness."

ITP - 1993

Celiac - June, 2012

Hypothyroid - August, 2012

CANADIAN

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I agree with Nicole. In addtion do not cook with flour for the gluten eaters. Let them get their gluten breads, cookies, cakes etc premade. Flour particles in the air will also get you. 


Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying

"I will try again tommorrow" (Mary Anne Radmacher)

Diagnosed by Allergist with elimination diet and diagnosis confirmed by GI in 2002

Misdiagnoses for 15 years were IBS-D, ataxia, migraines, anxiety, depression, fibromyalgia, parathesias, arthritis, livedo reticularis, hairloss, premature menopause, osteoporosis, kidney damage, diverticulosis, prediabetes and ulcers, dermatitis herpeformis

All bold resoved or went into remission in time with proper diagnosis of Celiac November 2002

 Gene Test Aug 2007

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0303

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0303

Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 3,3 (Subtype 9,9)

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Are there degrees of sensitivity, such that some can tolerate these tiny amounts and some can't? I'm just curious, wondering for the future, after I am healed.


Celiac Disease, diagnosed April 1, 2015

Migraines, Esophagitis/Gastritis, Lower Digestive Issues, Osteoporosis, Anxiety, Arthritis, etc--some improving.

DQ2.2 and DQ2.5 trans

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You will find very few people on here that will tell you it's Ok to cheat or not be as careful as you can. This is from the Univ of

Chicago Celiac Center site:

" The gluten-free diet is a lifetime requirement. Eating any gluten, no matter how small an amount, can damage your intestine. This is true for anyone with the disease, including people who do not have noticeable symptoms. It can take weeks for antibody levels (indicating intestinal damage) to normalize after a person with celiac disease has consumed gluten. Depending on a person’s age at diagnosis, some problems, such as delayed growth and tooth discoloration, may not improve."

http://www.cureceliacdisease.org/living-with-celiac/guide/treatment

Edit to add: accidental gluten will happen, whether you feel it or not. Eliminate as many chances of accidental glutenings as possible - your own toaster, butter, safe foods, safe places to eat, etc. Why add to the unavoidable accidental gluten?


 

 

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When new to this I really wondered about the "levels of sensitivity" myself since we hear about some things that make some people sick and not others. Here's the deal on that -  Any bit of gluten will cause damage.  As you heal a crumb of gluten may not make you physically sick (or as sick as you once used to get) as your gut is healing but it does cause damage to your gut.  Even if you cheated, ate a bite and didn't get physically sick, the internal damage is still being done.  Bottom line.....no cheating, constant vigilance, any little bit will continue to harm you and damage your insides.  No worth the risk.   

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Are there degrees of sensitivity? As a scientist I must respectfully disagree and say yes, although this does NOT mean that any celiac should ever knowingly eat something that may have been contaminated with gluten! When the FDA set the acceptable level for labeling gluten free food they evaluated and summarized the scientific literature. Studies have been done with acute (one time) and chronic exposure of celiacs to measured amounts of gluten, evaluated by biopsy. There is quite a range of results both within and between studies. One study found effects at 0.4 mg gluten per day. Another found that a one time dose of several hundred milligrams did not cause damage. The variability could have to do with how the studies were designed, how subjects were chosen, how well the biopsy sites were chosen, and differences between subjects (degrees of sensitivity).

So yes, there are degrees of sensitivity. However, unless you go absolutely, completely gluten free, then do a challenge with a tiny known amount of gluten and have a biopsy to determine your sensitivity level, it would be safest to not take any risks.

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I was thinking mostly in terms of accidental ingestion of gluten after the system has healed. Believe me, I do not foresee ever knowingly eating it again. Today I realized the horse feed I'm exposed to twice a day has something in it called "wheat middlings." I'm afraid of either breathing the dust or getting it on my clothes and transferring it to food. It feels like it's radioactive! I assume that things get a little less intense with time and practice.


Celiac Disease, diagnosed April 1, 2015

Migraines, Esophagitis/Gastritis, Lower Digestive Issues, Osteoporosis, Anxiety, Arthritis, etc--some improving.

DQ2.2 and DQ2.5 trans

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Suppose bread crumbs fall into the silverware drawer. When you pick out your spoon, there are no crumbs attached. Is that spoon contaminated due to only molecules of gluten that could cling to the surface?

Another crumb (and maybe dumb) question. Suppose there are bread crumbs on one end of a stick of butter. The other end is crumb-free. Is that end OK, or not OK?

These questions are hypothetical, as I am newly diagnosed and extremely careful, but I am curious about limits and whether they apply to all celiac sufferers. There is plenty of gluten in my kitchen for the other family members, but I scrupulously avoid it, including in the above scenarios.

Thanks!

I have the same issue with sharing a kitchen with my husband. I need to keep separate items such as peanutbutter and dips, anything a person can contaminate by double dipping. We just put our initials on the jars. I am one of those super sensitive people so I take no chances and keep utensils where they should not come in contact with crumbs.

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I was thinking mostly in terms of accidental ingestion of gluten after the system has healed. Believe me, I do not foresee ever knowingly eating it again. Today I realized the horse feed I'm exposed to twice a day has something in it called "wheat middlings." I'm afraid of either breathing the dust or getting it on my clothes and transferring it to food. It feels like it's radioactive! I assume that things get a little less intense with time and practice.

 

I would be careful with that...  We can get sick from airborne flour, so I'm guessing that would be a risk too.  :(  Maybe start a thread specifically about that and others with large animal  experience will chime in.


Nicole 

"Acceptance is the key to happiness."

ITP - 1993

Celiac - June, 2012

Hypothyroid - August, 2012

CANADIAN

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Are there degrees of sensitivity? As a scientist I must respectfully disagree and say yes, although this does NOT mean that any celiac should ever knowingly eat something that may have been contaminated with gluten! When the FDA set the acceptable level for labeling gluten free food they evaluated and summarized the scientific literature. Studies have been done with acute (one time) and chronic exposure of celiacs to measured amounts of gluten, evaluated by biopsy. There is quite a range of results both within and between studies. One study found effects at 0.4 mg gluten per day. Another found that a one time dose of several hundred milligrams did not cause damage. The variability could have to do with how the studies were designed, how subjects were chosen, how well the biopsy sites were chosen, and differences between subjects (degrees of sensitivity).

So yes, there are degrees of sensitivity. However, unless you go absolutely, completely gluten free, then do a challenge with a tiny known amount of gluten and have a biopsy to determine your sensitivity level, it would be safest to not take any risks.

 

I wouldn't trust that because intestinal damage is just a symptom (albeit a key one) of celiac disease.  Did they measure bloating, arthralgia pain, migraine severity, fatigue, vitamin deficiencies, or anxiety?  My guess is they just checked intestinal damage.  Yeah, intestinal damage is bad but my arhralgias made life harder for me. Intestinally, I had few symptoms, so it makes me wonder if I had been a subject in their study if I would have shown damage, or would I just have hobbled over to their offices on arthritic joints.

 

Plus I think our reactions vary depending on the day, week, month, and our health.  Sometimes a food may knock us back and other times we won't even notice the same food.

 

I think celiacs should assume they are extremely sensitive - most of us are.


Nicole 

"Acceptance is the key to happiness."

ITP - 1993

Celiac - June, 2012

Hypothyroid - August, 2012

CANADIAN

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Nicole just said what I was going to say. Celiac is so much more than just a gut disease. I wish researchers would take that into account but we seem to have a way to go with that. 

 

As to the horse feed. Please do start a thread to see what other horse owners do to protect themselves. Breathing in the dust will be a problem gluten wise. If no one else can feed and care for the horses do wear a mask and perhaps a coverall that can be taken off when you exit the stable. 


Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying

"I will try again tommorrow" (Mary Anne Radmacher)

Diagnosed by Allergist with elimination diet and diagnosis confirmed by GI in 2002

Misdiagnoses for 15 years were IBS-D, ataxia, migraines, anxiety, depression, fibromyalgia, parathesias, arthritis, livedo reticularis, hairloss, premature menopause, osteoporosis, kidney damage, diverticulosis, prediabetes and ulcers, dermatitis herpeformis

All bold resoved or went into remission in time with proper diagnosis of Celiac November 2002

 Gene Test Aug 2007

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0303

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0303

Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 3,3 (Subtype 9,9)

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I'm the only celiac in my house. However, I only cook gluten-free. My husband and grandson eat gluten-free with me. I allow a few gluten-free snacks for the child, but they're kept in a bin on the lowest shelf off the pantry. He's old enough to be able to be responsible for clean up. They're mostly chips or cookies. Some microwave things, like pizza rolls.

None of my cutting boards or pots or utensils are used to prepare items with gluten. Cross contamination is easy to happen.

I can't imagine a little kid eating gluten filled goodies running around my house touching things, or me!

I'm pretty sensitive and react to minute traces.

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You need to get a REALLY thick, well fitting dust mask and gloves/spare clothing, or stop feeding horses, one or the other, otherwise you will suffer over time. There have been multiple studies of celiac farmers suffering from feed. You either can't handle /be near the feed, or you need to take so many precautions it will almost make sense to have someone else do it.

There is really only 1 solution to not getting sick - eliminate any exposure. Even small exposure over time can add up to permanent damage to the intestine.


Type I Diabetes (2005)

Celiac's (2009) Blood Positive

"Soylac's" -Soy Interolerance (2009)

Skin Test positive for wheat and soy (2014)

Sleep Apnea (2014)

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This is a huge problem for me to figure out :(. At this time, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm grateful to get the facts here. I will research different types of feed and be sure about wearing the mask for now. Thanks.


Celiac Disease, diagnosed April 1, 2015

Migraines, Esophagitis/Gastritis, Lower Digestive Issues, Osteoporosis, Anxiety, Arthritis, etc--some improving.

DQ2.2 and DQ2.5 trans

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This is a huge problem for me to figure out :(. At this time, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm grateful to get the facts here. I will research different types of feed and be sure about wearing the mask for now. Thanks.

Do look into other feed. You may be able to find some that is gluten free and that your horse will tolerate. Perhaps make a call to the horse's vet. He might have some feed suggestions. Also be careful when grooming. 

If no one else in your household can handle the feeding perhaps a neighbor, 4 H kid, or another horse owner might be willing and able to help out. Someone that loves horses might even do it in exchange for being able to ride one when they are done. If your horses will tolerate other riders. 


Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying

"I will try again tommorrow" (Mary Anne Radmacher)

Diagnosed by Allergist with elimination diet and diagnosis confirmed by GI in 2002

Misdiagnoses for 15 years were IBS-D, ataxia, migraines, anxiety, depression, fibromyalgia, parathesias, arthritis, livedo reticularis, hairloss, premature menopause, osteoporosis, kidney damage, diverticulosis, prediabetes and ulcers, dermatitis herpeformis

All bold resoved or went into remission in time with proper diagnosis of Celiac November 2002

 Gene Test Aug 2007

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0303

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0303

Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 3,3 (Subtype 9,9)

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