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trents

Hemp intolerance

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I have had three episodes of protracted emesis and diarrhea in the past two and a half weeks. I realized the common denominator was that this happened within a couple of hours of eating a gluten free snack containing hemp protein called JoJo's Guilt-Free Chocolate. Looking back about a year ago I remember having the same problem after consuming a health shake that I had added hemp hearts to. The odd thing is that only a few years ago I was regularly adding hemp hearts to my hot gluten free cereal at breakfast without any issues. I'm not positive about this but I believe I have seen this same pattern with chia seeds in that they were something I could consume without issue at one point but then started having major problems after not eating them for a period of time.

In addition, I have always had issues with unprocessed quinoa which I think is due to the resins in the seed coat. Washed and cooked I have no problem with it.

Seeds are not liking me these days and the list is growing it seems.

Anyone else having similar experiences?

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Hemp is often CCed, since its huge surge in popularity it is often grown in rotation with wheat. Other times the farmers grow both and use the same equipment in the harvesting and transporting of crop. Nima testing several companies I found many to come back positive.

I found the only hemp I can get that has not bothered me was MyGerbs Whole Hemp seeds, I have sorted these out and normally mill them into a paste to add to meals. I use it for treating my depression and is a necessity in my life. 

Now for other aspects,
Digestion of fats/fiber, Chia seeds bother the hell out of me if I eat whole seeds, they clump up and float in my stomach tillI vomit. I found I can tolerate them in baked goods, and chia meal soaked for 48 hours til it sinks is fine.
I have to run my hemp seeds in a mill till they form a paste, and I can only eat sunbutter not sunflower seeds whole
I find flax seeds float/clump also but soaked flax meal or flax meal in baked goods is fine.
Chia and flax are a mucilage forming seed that can cause fats and other foods to clump up and float.

Rancidity, seeds go rancid, FACT, they are protein and fat like meat....they need to be kept in a cold dark environment. Most people are not bothered by slightly rancid seeds and eat them. I found I need to get my seeds straight from the sellers, NO warehouse hot storage or sitting on a shelf for gods knows how long. I store them in airtight canisters in the fridge. Good rule 4-6 months shelf life from production date on a shelf up to a year in the fridge. 

Digestive enzymes are needed also to eat most seeds/nuts in my case. In ratios to digest the high fat/fibers I eat. It could be a case of fats and fibers not breaking down. If they float they go rancid before dumping and digesting. Or fibers and fats going into the intestines not fulling digested and just being flushed out the system.

And finally food sensitivities/allergies, I have a friend who is deathly allergic to hemp/marijuana, allergies can develop to anything at any time.
Food sensitivities can also be an issue in relations to certain foods, tannins, fats, fibers, etc.
I have issues with peanuts even in trace amounts making me vomit for over 4 hours with dry heaving uncontrolably....no explanation or allergies. Then I also became allergic to corn almost 4 years ago when I had been eating it all my life. 

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/are-food-sensitivities-for-life
https://www.celiac.com/forums/topic/119919-digestive-enzymes/

 

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7 hours ago, trents said:

I have had three episodes of protracted emesis and diarrhea in the past two and a half weeks. I realized the common denominator was that this happened within a couple of hours of eating a gluten free snack containing hemp protein called JoJo's Guilt-Free Chocolate. Looking back about a year ago I remember having the same problem after consuming a health shake that I had added hemp hearts to. The odd thing is that only a few years ago I was regularly adding hemp hearts to my hot gluten free cereal at breakfast without any issues. I'm not positive about this but I believe I have seen this same pattern with chia seeds in that they were something I could consume without issue at one point but then started having major problems after not eating them for a period of time.

In addition, I have always had issues with unprocessed quinoa which I think is due to the resins in the seed coat. Washed and cooked I have no problem with it.

Seeds are not liking me these days and the list is growing it seems.

Anyone else having similar experiences?

Trents,

I haven't had your problem(s) lately ....but I  did see a pattern in your food choices.

They all have Trypsin Inhibitors? ...the trypsin can trick your body into believing you have just ate gluten ...from what I understand. .. and they may also  have some content of saponins (especially Quinoa considered an antinutrient) like Phytic acid is in beans...

Here is a couple articles on celiac.com about ATIs.

https://www.celiac.com/articles.html/celiac-disease-gluten-intolerance-research/gliadin-triggers-innate-immune-reaction-in-celiac-and-non-celiac-individuals-r2608/

(Information about ATIs down a ways in the article)

And this fairly recent on about two years ago on ATIs.

Depending on who you have consumed these food products ... your preparation methods might of made your reactions worse.

see this article about it is important to soak chia seeds.

http://www.superlife.com/chia-seeds-soaked-in-water/

and to  heat quoina seeds to help make them safer ...to protect as they say from Antinutrional components in quoina seeds like ATI's and Saponins (bitter taste)...

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0101-20612015000100074#B011

and see this one on hemps antinutritional components including trypsins.

https://file.scirp.org/Html/3-2601785_52936.htm

But I won't eat any of them raw....soak and treat them properly will help your reaction to ATI's in these food products.

I actually was haven trouble with some flax seeds a few years ago ... and now I know why ...I was eating them raw and whole....I just cut them out of my diet ... now I wonder if I had prepared them properly/eaten them as ground seeds if I would of tolerated flax better in my diet .. since raw seeds are not recommended.

https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/eat-flax-seeds-raw-10130.html

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advise.

Posterboy,

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Posterboy, your analysis agrees with my experience with some of these seeds in that the difference maker can often be how they are prepared and the effect that has on the plants/seeds natural defense mechanisms. At least, I can see that very clearly with quinoa in my real life experience. I have not really experimented with chia or flax. Last I tried it, flax meal did not give me an issue but I haven't tried it in a while.

But how do you wash chia seeds? They quickly turn into a gelatinous goop when put in water. And the one thing that does not fit this pattern in my experience is the hemp protein in the snack I mention above. I would assume that is a processed ingredient and the hulls have been removed. Perhaps that reaction is truly to the protein and not to the saponins.

Found this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-saponins-in-quinoa-toxic/  In reflecting on my recent illness experiences there were suds in the puke after eating the snack containing hemp protein.

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On 5/14/2019 at 9:31 PM, trents said:

Perhaps that reaction is truly to the protein and not to the saponins.

On 5/14/2019 at 9:31 PM, trents said:

Posterboy, your analysis agrees with my experience with some of these seeds in that the difference maker can often be how they are prepared and the effect that has on the plants/seeds natural defense mechanisms. At least, I can see that very clearly with quinoa in my real life experience. I have not really experimented with chia or flax. Last I tried it, flax meal did not give me an issue but I haven't tried it in a while.

But how do you wash chia seeds? They quickly turn into a gelatinous goop when put in water. And the one thing that does not fit this pattern in my experience is the hemp protein in the snack I mention above. I would assume that is a processed ingredient and the hulls have been removed. Perhaps that reaction is truly to the protein and not to the saponins.

Found this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-saponins-in-quinoa-toxic/  In reflecting on my recent illness experiences there were suds in the puke after eating the snack containing hemp protein.

Trents,

Foam in vomit ...is not necessarily unusual it is usually from bile which emulsifies our fats but Saponins can do it too.

see this nice wisegeek article about when to be worried about foam/bubbles in your vomit comet.

https://www.wisegeek.com/what-can-cause-vomiting-foam.htm

it is actually a little more serious for dogs than humans usually when you see foam/bubles in vomit ...especially  when you know why.

As for what it was .....that is causing the vomit in the first place.

I actually think it was the ATI's proteins common in hemp.

Here is a gastro journal op-ed that shows at least in a subset of Celiac's ...ATIs also can cause a similar auto-immune reaction the same as gluten does.

https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(18)30025-8/pdf

see their chart and what is telling though is that it is 10Xs more potent ...by that I mean it only takes 10pct of an equal amount of ATIs to trigger an auto-immune reaction as it does with gluten as opposed to the amount of gluten needed to trigger an auto-immune reaction.

but to be sure you should check to see if you have a similar reaction to other foods with saponins in them.

Here is a nice article about how saponins (can effect your immune system)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1810383/

From this article here is a list of foods that could also trigger a similar reaction if saponins are your trigger.

"Saponins contain a steroidal or triterpenoid aglycone to which one or more sugar chains are attached (Oda et al., 2003). These are found widely in the plant kingdom with the triterpenoid saponins predominant mostly in cultivated crops, while steroid saponins are common in plants used as herbs or for their health-promoting properties according to Fenwick et al.(1991). Triterpenoid saponins have been detected in many legumes such as soybeans, beans, peas, lucerne, etc., and also in alliums, tea, spinach, sugar beet, quinoa, liquorices, sunflower, horse chestnut and ginseng. Steroid saponins are found in oats, capsicum peppers, aubergine, tomato seed, alliums, asparagus, yam, fenugreek, yucca and ginseng."

I actually think your stomach acid is too low to digest proteins.

Eva Untersmary has done the best work on this topic.

see this work entitled "The influence of gastric digestion on the development of food allergy".  I am quoting the link for the full paper so you can read it for yourself.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5467726/

they note quoting

"Based on the here reviewed data it is evident that functional gastric digestion is important for food allergy prevention. Impairment of physiological peptic digestion has repeatedly been reported to be associated with food allergy induction..."

I have found this to be true for me ...low stomach I believe contributed to many of my GI problems.

It is easy enough to check....see this livestrong article about some easy home test(s) and the official tests to have your doctor to confirm your home test findings.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/493568-how-to-test-for-low-hcl-acid-in-the-stomach/

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy by the grace of God,

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Thanks for the links. Lots of reading there for me to do.

Concerning low stomach acid and inability to digest proteins, I am on long term PPI therapy for GERD. Tried going off of them but just can't. Lab work always shows my total protein and albumin are borderline low but I have always attributed that to leaky gut, i.e., losing protein to the lumen. However, I experience no illness with animal proteins. Only seems to be an issue with raw seeds (possible exception would be hemp) and some raw veggies, especially broccoli. Raw broccoli has always given me a sour stomach, even when I was a very young man.

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On 5/14/2019 at 1:57 PM, Ennis_TX said:

I use it for treating my depression and is a necessity in my life. 

Ennis_Tx,

You might try some turmeric ..I ran across this recently after celic.com featured an article on turmeric.

https://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/12/16/curcumin-for-depression-an-effective-treatment/

I have been trying it my blood sugar problems lately... and turmeric with 95% curcuminoids seem to work well.

But I can't say if it will continue working ...most herbs I have taken usually only work temporarily before fading off... until I take it a little longer...  and why I prefer to find a vitamin/nutrient if I can that will do the same thing.... and the benefit be long(er) term... but early results as they say is promising....it can be consumed as a tea too if that is more convenient.

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

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14 minutes ago, trents said:

Thanks for the links. Lots of reading there for me to do.

Concerning low stomach acid and inability to digest proteins, I am on long term PPI therapy for GERD. Tried going off of them but just can't. Lab work always shows my total protein and albumin are borderline low but I have always attributed that to leaky gut, i.e., losing protein to the lumen. However, I experience no illness with animal proteins. Only seems to be an issue with raw seeds (possible exception would be hemp) and some raw veggies, especially broccoli. Raw broccoli has always given me a sour stomach, even when I was a very young man.

Trents (and) Ennis_Tx,

I sure hope you can get off the PPIs ...long(er) term they are horrible.

The step down method usually works in 6 months ...Ennis_tx has now switched from PPIs to H2 blockers ...he might be able to give you good advice.

You might try some Glutamine and Turmeric also to see if it helps your GI problems...I am currently trialing turmeric for my blood sugar issues.

Here is a  couple good links for Glutamine and Turmeric to help GI problems.

https://news.vcu.edu/article/Oral_curcumin_may_protect_gut_function

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4369670/

going low carb will  help the gerd....not completely eliminate it but help minimize it.

I don't know if you saw this research are not but Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) explains very well why taking PPIs long(er) term is the wrong answer.

https://www.hhmi.org/news/excessive-growth-bacteria-may-also-be-major-cause-stomach-ulcers

Untersmayr has confirmed that taking PPIs or even other acid reducers can cause/contribute to food sensitivities.

see this research entitled "Acid suppression therapy and allergic reactions"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5464390/

I was actually thinking of Ennis_tx when I came across this research but it will help you too.

recently (this a more expanded article) baking soda was shown to trigger off the auto-immune reaction triggered by low stomach acid. .. that I think explains well how our microvilli trigger our body to attack our villi ...when it is in an inflammatory state...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180425093745.htm

I must stop for now....but if this doesn't help you understand what is going on .. then feel free to PM me and I will be glad to have a private conversation about it...but more people need to understand  how low stomach acid can contribute to GI problems ...MORE not less stomach acid is needed in 90% of the situations.

when you starting taking PPIs for GERD your heartburn turns into NERD aka as (bile reflux)..

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/11/13/gerd-or-nerd-new-type-acid-reflux-doesnt-respond-to-drugs.html 

see this case study of how taking BetaineHCL treated someone's GI problems they had for 30+ years. ..replacing low stomach with replacement acid the body was no longer producing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4991651/ 

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

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To be honest I am down to taking the Nexium every other day only once and the smallest dose. Was on the highest dose twice a day last year. It is slow, but I have other issues.....I do not take them for just GERD.

My big things with digestion and that stuff in my throat/vomiting was to prevent gastroparesis and encourage stomach dumping by avoiding certain foods that trigger it (For me vinegar, and propylene glycol along with some foods). I found I  needed raised doses of vitamin D and moderate magnesium also. To break my foods down 3-6x the recommended digestive enzymes in the actual ratios for my diet (Enough of each enzyme to break down the grams of each macro I eat). Food prep is a huge thing also, cooking every soft, avoiding solid, soaking nuts/seeds til they sink (2-3 days) and avoiding oily foods and animal fats. Also timing, my digestion is the strongest when I wake up from a fasted state, only time i can eat tougher food like meat, lunch I keep soft and meat free, and I found I had to stop eating after 1pm....if I eat in the evenings I vomit up stuff, heck I sometimes will vomit around 6-7pm stuff I did not digest from the morning meal. 


 

 

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Meat and dairy seem to be the easiest things for me to digest. I know that is the opposite of many peoples' experience. I can do essentially all veggies as long as they are cooked well. I don't do good with "woody" things.

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On 5/17/2019 at 8:34 PM, trents said:

Meat and dairy seem to be the easiest things for me to digest. I know that is the opposite of many peoples' experience. I can do essentially all veggies as long as they are cooked well. I don't do good with "woody" things.

Trents,

We have specific enzymes for these protein's.

You should really try and transition to H2 blockers if you can.

There is a lawsuit for Nexium ...you might want to look into it.

https://www.drugwatcher.org/nexium-lawsuits/

the reason I quoted the earlier research it specifically mentions how PPIs physiologically changes your GI system. ..including and up to quoting

since "2008 a first report appeared linking PPI intake with increased transmucosal leak in the upper gastrointestinal tract"

here is the  link again so you can read it in it's entirety

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5464390/

and probably why there is in part a lawsuit for Nexium and might should be for PPI's  in general.

Harvard Edu said about this same times said "it was time to take a step back" from PPI's.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-ppis-have-long-term-side-effects

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

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Ennis_Tx,

The way PPIs effect the pancreas is reduction in secrtin release.

this in turn effects how the pancreas functions. ..see figure 1 in the above research.

transitioning to H2 blockers could help your pancreas issues. ...I know it will not be easy but the HHMI research explains why it might be necessary.

https://www.hhmi.org/news/excessive-growth-bacteria-may-also-be-major-cause-stomach-ulcers 

by only blocking 80% of your stomach acid ...this allows for you to slowly step down the acid reducing chain....to you have turned a vicious cycle into a virtuous/victorious cycle.

without only limited rebound acid hypersecritions that comes from trying to stop PPIs cold turkey ...as you are well aware of.

I am proud of the way you have been ....step by step...able to reduce your PPIs amount ..slowly

Now maybe the time to try 150mg or even higher Rantidine 2/day to transition to H2 blockers instead....from there the steps down can be in half doses of Rantidine once month.  because Rantidine is fast(er) acting than PPIs you can try the Rantidine on the 2nd day/night as needed.

if it works to get you through the night (rantidine on the 2nd night) after a month of this you can try 150mg for your morning dose etc.....until you only need 1/2 as much etc...until you won't need anything but antacids in another 6 months to a year hopefully....the same way you have done for PPI's now!

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

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The problem with H2 blockers has always been you build up a tolerance to them whereas that is not a problem with PPI meds.

In addition, PPIs are considered more appropriate for GERD whereas H2 blockers are generally used for peptic ulcers:

https://www.healthline.com/health/gerd/h2-blockers#h-receptor-blockers-vs-proton-pump-inhibitors-ppis

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I was in H2 antihistamines for six months when I developed autoimmune hives after a gluten exposure.  (Hives started every afternoon with intestinal pain and the hives start racing up and down my body.). A few months later,  I developed GERD like symptoms.  I kept trying to figure out how gluten was getting into my diet.  Turns out it was not.  A repeat biopsy found healed villi, but revealed autoimmune gastritis.  What I learned is that is is not always gluten as a culprit.  

Autoimmune Gastritis causes low stomach acid.  

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13 hours ago, cyclinglady said:

I was in H2 antihistamines for six months when I developed autoimmune hives after a gluten exposure.  (Hives started every afternoon with intestinal pain and the hives start racing up and down my body.). A few months later,  I developed GERD like symptoms.  I kept trying to figure out how gluten was getting into my diet.  Turns out it was not.  A repeat biopsy found healed villi, but revealed autoimmune gastritis.  What I learned is that is is not always gluten as a culprit.  

Autoimmune Gastritis causes low stomach acid.  

What were you originally put on H2 antihistamines for if I might ask? Was this done to to treat reflux issues or some other allergic condition?

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I think CL started the H-2 blockers for hives.

GERD can be caused by a defect in the valve that blocks stomach acid from entering the esophagus.   People use different methods of dealing with that issue, like raising the upper torso when sleeping, or possibly even surgery.

Another possible cause of GERD is too much stomach gas causing pressure that forces stomach acid into the esophagus.  If too much gas is the problem, reducing the gas is the solution.  Poor digestion due to low stomach acid can increase gas though, so PPI's would be counterproductive in that situation.

This Mayo Clinic link lists some more possible GERD causes.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gerd/symptoms-causes/syc-20361940

 

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12 hours ago, trents said:

What were you originally put on H2 antihistamines for if I might ask? Was this done to to treat reflux issues or some other allergic condition?

My allergist prescribed H2 antihistamines for the hives.  Before my hives erupted every afternoon, I had abdominal pain.  It felt like I was getting hives in my gut first! So we thought it was allergy or autoimmune related.  Maybe even Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (have a standing order to be tested at ER).  But the GERD-like symptoms lingered after the hives went away (about six months).  I went on the Fasano diet, but no relief.  Then I finally agreed to a repeat endoscopy. I had healed villi (celiac disease in remission), but they found chronic autoimmune gastritis.  This condition ebbs and flows.  So far, I have no deficiencies.  

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4 hours ago, cyclinglady said:

My allergist prescribed H2 antihistamines for the hives.  Before my hives erupted every afternoon, I had abdominal pain.  It felt like I was getting hives in my gut first! So we thought it was allergy or autoimmune related.  Maybe even Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (have a standing order to be tested at ER).  But the GERD-like symptoms lingered after the hives went away (about six months).  I went on the Fasano diet, but no relief.  Then I finally agreed to a repeat endoscopy. I had healed villi (celiac disease in remission), but they found chronic autoimmune gastritis.  This condition ebbs and flows.  So far, I have no deficiencies.  

Cyclinglady and Trents,

Your experience is very similar to what the research shows.

From this link on "acid suppression and allergic reactions" and why I posted it so other's could read it and ponder whether their acid reducers are contributing to their allergic reactions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5464390/

quoting

"The influence on IgE induction and skewing the immune response towards Th2 was confirmed for another subclass of H2-receptor blockers.[70] Furthermore, also less potent acid reduction medication, such as antacids and base powder, were found to be associated with food allergy development.[71] These results were confirmed in human studies evaluating the influence of long-term anti-ulcer drug intake on food sensitization and allergy induction. A cohort of 152 adult patients treated for dyspeptic disorder with either H2-recptor blockers or PPIs was subjected to an allergological screening before and after a 3 month course of acid-reduction treatment. In these patients we observed a boost of preexisting food-specific IgE antibodies in 10% or de novo IgE formation towards regular constituents of the daily diet in 15% of all patients. Even though food specific IgE levels decreased in some patients 5 months after discontinuation of anti-ulcer medication intake, sensitization was still confirmed by positive skin tests."

At least in a subset of people taking PPIs and/or H2 blockers they are triggering auto-immune reactions similar to what cyclinglady experienced.

I thought this might be your case (Trents) so I went looking to see if PPIs had similar reactions. And PPIs can cause similar reactions.

Trents and Cyclinglday see this research about PPIs, Anaphylasis (coughing etc.) and Hives...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301054602791507

while this is considered rare ...because if it wasn't who would take PPI's in the first place ... and why I think the long term answer is step down from them....

Chris Kresser has a great series of article on this topic.

https://chriskresser.com/what-everybody-ought-to-know-but-doesnt-about-heartburn-gerd/

Here is another nice article on how incomplete digestion of proteins ...can trigger an anaphylaxis reaction in people who have allergies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2999749/

the article specifically is about undigested fish protein ...but they note this has been shown to be true for other proteins as well like peanuts etc....

once or pH rises over 3.0 our ability  to digest proteins completely is lost.

Cyclinglady and it explains perfectly why you had gastritis/GERD (In my opinion) symtpom's for the the next 5 months ...because your body had not yet recovered (see above quote) from having taken H2 blockers 6 months before and why Trents ...it can take 6 months or more to completely taper off PPIs or H2 blockers.

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

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Meat and dairy seem to be the easiest things for me to digest. I know that is the opposite of many peoples' experience. I can do essentially all veggies as long as they are cooked well. I don't do good with "woody" things.

 

Posterboy, sometimes it just boils down to pick your poison. None of us likes taking these prescription meds but it might be the better of two evils. And how would one determine what the PH of the gut is, anyway? Whether or not it's below 3.0? 

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20 minutes ago, trents said:

Meat and dairy seem to be the easiest things for me to digest. I know that is the opposite of many peoples' experience. I can do essentially all veggies as long as they are cooked well. I don't do good with "woody" things.

 

Posterboy, sometimes it just boils down to pick your poison. None of us likes taking these prescription meds but it might be the better of two evils. And how would one determine what the PH of the gut is, anyway? Whether or not it's below 3.0? 

Trents,

You might not be able to get a true pH number now that you are taking PPIs....official tests require you to be off PPIs for approx. 4 days or more ...this will cause horrible hypersecretion the 2nd day and why people get "locked in". ...the official test is a heidelbel capsule test.

the dr. jockers article tells you of a couple of home remedies you can do test to see whether your stomach acid is low or not ...not ...how  low...that will take "an official test".

https://drjockers.com/5-ways-test-stomach-acid-levels/

here is a case study of how taking BetaineHCL (replacement stomach acid) can improve digestion entitled

"Nutritional Interventions for Gastroesophageal Reflux, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, and Hypochlorhydria: A Case Report"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4991651/

never take BetaineHCL on an empty stomach and always take with a couple of glasses of water.

I suggest to try it with 3 or 4 capsules to begin with ...then adjust up or down as necessary...until gastric tolerance is reached.

Here is a cases study of the 1/2 life of betaine HCL in the body entitled "Pharmacokinetics of oral betaine (HCL) in healthy subjects and patients with homocystinuria"

quoting from it.

"We found rapid absorption (t1/2,abs 00.28 h, s.d. 0.17) and distribution (t1/2,λ1 00.59 h, s.d. 0.22) of betaine. A Cmax of 0.94 mmol l−1 (s.d. 0.19) was reached after tmax 00.90 h (s.d. 0.33). The elimination half life t1/2,z was 14.38 h (s.d. 7.17). After repeated dosage, t1/2,λ1 (01.77 h, s.d. 0.75) and t1/2,z (41.17 h, s.d. 13.50) increased significantly (95% CI 0.73, 01.64 h and 19.90, 33.70 h, respectively), whereas absorption remained unchanged...

Betaine plasma concentrations change rapidly after ingestion. Elimination half-life increased during continuous dosing over 5 days. Betaine is mainly eliminated by metabolism."

So betaineHCL is quickly processed through the body's metabolism and eating foods increase the pH of food ...so if you get a burning sensation ...drink more water and/eat more food and when you get a "warm sensation" in your stomach you have reached gastric tolerance.

this will help protect you from "super hypersecretion" from PPIs usually worst on the 2nd and 3rd days as the full stomach acid pumps are turned back on and why I suggested (the best of the two evils)  H2 blockers only allowing 70 to 80% of the acid to come rushing back all at once.

see/read the HHMI research again ... they explain the difference why very well.

https://www.hhmi.org/news/excessive-growth-bacteria-may-also-be-major-cause-stomach-ulcers 

what was striking to me about the earlier research I quoted was 70% of those admitted to nursing homes were on PPIs/H2 Blockers (IE acid suppressor) at the time of admission.

Also read this foxnews article on the difference between NERD and GERD I cited before if you haven't had a chance to read it yet.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/gerd-or-nerd-new-type-of-heartburn-doesnt-respond-to-drugs

they now say quoting

"But up to one-half of GERD patients don't get complete relief from even the strongest acid-reducing medications, called proton-pump inhibitors (PPIs), and most don't have any evidence of acid erosion when doctors examine their esophagus with an endoscope.

Gastroenterologists have dubbed this condition non-erosive reflux diseases, or NERD. ...

Gastrointestinal experts now estimate that 50 percent to 70 percent of GERD patients actually have NERD,"

which PPIs essentially don't help but make worse causing bile reflux (probably the foam) you found in vomit.

quoting again

"Doctors suspect some may be suffering from a reflux of bile, a digestive liquid produced in the liver, rather than stomach acid, or from hypersensitivity to sensations in the esophagus."

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

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4 hours ago, Posterboy said:

Cyclinglady and Trents,

Your experience is very similar to what the research shows.

From this link on "acid suppression and allergic reactions" and why I posted it so other's could read it and ponder whether their acid reducers are contributing to their allergic reactions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5464390/

quoting

"The influence on IgE induction and skewing the immune response towards Th2 was confirmed for another subclass of H2-receptor blockers.[70] Furthermore, also less potent acid reduction medication, such as antacids and base powder, were found to be associated with food allergy development.[71] These results were confirmed in human studies evaluating the influence of long-term anti-ulcer drug intake on food sensitization and allergy induction. A cohort of 152 adult patients treated for dyspeptic disorder with either H2-recptor blockers or PPIs was subjected to an allergological screening before and after a 3 month course of acid-reduction treatment. In these patients we observed a boost of preexisting food-specific IgE antibodies in 10% or de novo IgE formation towards regular constituents of the daily diet in 15% of all patients. Even though food specific IgE levels decreased in some patients 5 months after discontinuation of anti-ulcer medication intake, sensitization was still confirmed by positive skin tests."

At least in a subset of people taking PPIs and/or H2 blockers they are triggering auto-immune reactions similar to what cyclinglady experienced.

I thought this might be your case (Trents) so I went looking to see if PPIs had similar reactions. And PPIs can cause similar reactions.

Trents and Cyclinglday see this research about PPIs, Anaphylasis (coughing etc.) and Hives...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301054602791507

while this is considered rare ...because if it wasn't who would take PPI's in the first place ... and why I think the long term answer is step down from them....

Chris Kresser has a great series of article on this topic.

https://chriskresser.com/what-everybody-ought-to-know-but-doesnt-about-heartburn-gerd/

Here is another nice article on how incomplete digestion of proteins ...can trigger an anaphylaxis reaction in people who have allergies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2999749/

the article specifically is about undigested fish protein ...but they note this has been shown to be true for other proteins as well like peanuts etc....

once or pH rises over 3.0 our ability  to digest proteins completely is lost.

Cyclinglady and it explains perfectly why you had gastritis/GERD (In my opinion) symtpom's for the the next 5 months ...because your body had not yet recovered (see above quote) from having taken H2 blockers 6 months before and why Trents ...it can take 6 months or more to completely taper off PPIs or H2 blockers.

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

I think that there has been some mis-communication.  

Every drug has risks and benefits.  I took strong does of antihistamines (both H1 and H2) as prescribed by my allergist (MD) because of chronic hives, not because I was suffering from gastric symptoms.  Could the use of them activated my third autoimmune disorder (Chronic Autoimmune Gastritis)?  Who knows?  But the horrible itching that kept me awake was unbearable.  These drugs helped.  This is an article that explains why:

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/762917-treatment

I know you are a strong advocate for not using PPI or H2 blockers when the cause for GERD or gastric distress is unknown.  However, not everyone has the access to good medical care and can not find out.  Sometimes quality of life becomes more important.  

I have not taken those drugs for almost a year and a half.  I have never taken a PPI.   I think that antihistamines did NOT cause my Gastritis because it would have resolved by now.  It flares up for no obvious reason, but I have noted that stress seems to aggravate it.  

 

Edited by cyclinglady

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Cyclinglady,

There is an overlap of GERD symptom's in people who develop hives?

Who knows if they are related or only associated conditions...

Here is actually a current study about it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6245739/

Have you tried taking some Vitamin D or having your Vitamin D levels checked...

Taking Vitamin D can apparently help the severity of hives outbreaks.

Here is  study about this association entitled "Vitamin D provides relief for those with chronic hives, study shows"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140217084804.htm

from the fox news article https://www.foxnews.com/health/gerd-or-nerd-new-type-of-heartburn-doesnt-respond-to-drugs

quoting for those who don't  have time to click the link and read in it's entirety.

"Another guess is psychological stress. A 2004 study of 60 patients conducted at the University of California, Los Angeles, found that those with severe, sustained stress in the previous six months were more likely to have heartburn symptoms during the next four months."

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.. .and I hope you find out whatever was triggering it ...but medical research shows stress is a factor for heartburn... as  you noted.

We know stress kills ..us right but it Maims us first!

If it is very bad and not getting better after the stress gets' better it is probably bile reflux instead and what/why the fox news article was noting....

Here is the original research about bile reflux -- not acid reflux...which I think is sad for most people ...because they never get the help they deserve. . . .though it has been 5+ years since this new research on bile reflux ..we still treat GERD the same way. ..as if it was from acid reflux instead.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/3476/bile--not-acid--is-bad-guy-in-triggering-precancerous-condition-associated-with-reflux-disease.aspx

How can opinions/ideas change/if we don't discuss it through to understanding???

I always like to think in these terms "To Educate is to Free" . .and why I share ....more stomach acid not less helped me.

I must stop for now ....

Again I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

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