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schuyler

Vegetarian Vs Eating Meat

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Danielle,

That's great that you've gained weight and are starting to feel better. I've been researching gluten free/dairy free and soy free stuff. Kinnikinnick was one of the things I had been looking into. Do you buy it at a local store or did you order it?

If you go to their website you can look up health food/grocery stores which carry a limited line of their products. Health food store near me carries their hot dog buns but not their hamburger buns (for example) and he's not even an offical store - he gets it from his distributor. He's not on Kinnikinnick's official list.

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kb- If you've gotten to the point that you feel eating meat might be the answer you've probably been feeling lousy for a long time. I held out way longer than was good for my body. I still have serious memory issues. I was tired all the time. I still get that way when I've gone too many days without meat. Returning to an omnivorous diet isn't so bad, and it's DEFINITELY worth trying to see if it makes you feel better. Veg is just one of the things I wasn't meant to be, despite my best efforts. To get yourself started, I recommend turkey and steak as lean and clean as you can find them, and eggs if you don't already.

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The first thing to realise is there ios no such thing as a healthy diet.

If you reach 18, have 3-4 kids and die you have achieved your sole purpose.

Anything else is a bonus. Everything you eat can be bad for you and everything you eat can provide nutrition but all it is doing is feeding an engine.

That said, some things are worse for people than others.

Soy is no more bad for you than anything else.

and that everything else contains gluten? Soy is one of the top 12 food allergies in humans and other mammals. It is no more fit for human consumption than bamboo leaves which Panda's manage to survive on or grass which cows manage to survive on.

Everything in moderation.
Sure feel free to much down a packet of rat poision... in moderation of course. Of course a small amount of rat poision can be good for some people ...

You can eat a moderate, well-balanced vegetarian diet just as easily as a omnivore diet.

Obviously not ... an easy diet is .. well easy. Meat and two veg while not the heathiest choice is still a moderate balanced choice. That is not to say you cannot have a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet but it is simply not easy.

Eat as many potatoes as you like and you will always have an amino acid inbalance. Indeed with the exception of soy there is little vegetable protein that is balanced and hence it needs balancing against other proteins ... its all possible its just not easy.

People, for some reason, hold a prejudice against vegetarians (maybe their lifestyle threatens you in some way) and then they run around finding any evidence they can that it is unhealthy and evil. Why can't people just live their lifestyle the way they want and leave others alone about their choices?

Erm, well if someone has problems and asks then is it not the right thing to do to point them in the right direction? Perhaps the problem is vegans and vegetarians who keep insisting that it is a healthy diet.

In the end there is no need for us to be healthy, many people lead fulfilling lives without being healthy and indeed being 'healthy' is simply a term for not dying soon. The healthiest person can walk out and be hit by a bus anytime.

The human body is designed to be omnivorous, it is the basis of its sucess and flexibility. Chimpanzee's are NOT vegetarian.... not by a long way their diet includes eggs, mammals and birds.

So the omnivorous nature of man and his predecessors goes back some 300,000 years at least.

The bottom line is that man is designed to be omnivorous and the human development has developed around that. Our appendix is non-functioning and so we rely on more concentrated foods, in order to get these concentrated foods we evolved higher reasoning capacity and this leaves us more time than herbivores to do other things. Most herbivores spend most of their time just eating very low nutritional value foods. They wake up, have a scratch and then eat all day before sleeping.

Because of mans higher reasoning we have developed ways to use unnatural sources of food. this doesn't make them healthy, it just means we have developed ways of taking usually inedible high nutritional value foods and making them partially edible and partially digestable. Wheat, rice and Soy are the overriding ones but not all. It is hardly surprising that the human body develops intolerances to foods it was never designed to eat.

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I ate vegetarian for at least five years, primarily because of the hormones and antibiotics they give the animals. Plus, my husband sells to meat packers and farmers and I didn't like how they raised the animals; it just doesn't seem like they'd be healthy. So, for me it was a health thing and I still ate meat if I ate at someone else's house. I read a book called something like "What your doctor won't tell you about Premenopause" because I was having hot flashes, night sweats, was hyperventilating frequently, among other things. Oddly enough, the female MD who wrote this book talked about an elimintation diet, which is what made me aware of my problem with wheat (I didn't know about gluten yet). This MD was a vegetarian and noticed that as she got older she needed more protein than she was getting and added some healthy meat and fish back into her diet. I did as well and feel much better for it. I don't know whether it's age or time away from meat protein that matters.

I actually eat very little meat. I eat lots of canned red salmon (it's not farmed) and free range eggs. I do on occassion get a steak when we eat out and cook chicken at home. I have the unpleasant experience of driving by a veal farm on a regular basis, I'm no animal activist for sure, but ... those cows don't look any healthier than a very sick celiac still eating gluten!! <_< I can't imagine that meat having any nutritional value!!

I guess the only way you can find out if soy is a problem is to cut it out for a while.

Is there any specific brand of red salmon you eat. I love salmon but found I only like the red in the black label can - can't remember the brand.

Thanks, Nancy

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Because of mans higher reasoning we have developed ways to use unnatural sources of food. this doesn't make them healthy, it just means we have developed ways of taking usually inedible high nutritional value foods and making them partially edible and partially digestable. Wheat, rice and Soy are the overriding ones but not all. It is hardly surprising that the human body develops intolerances to foods it was never designed to eat.

I think that this is so true--

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how 'bout everyone just eats what agrees with their bods? B)

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Ninja - How did your body react when you first started eating meat again? Did you have digestive problems from your body not producing the necessary enzymes to digest meat anymore? How long did it take you to start feeling better? How did you know that you needed to start eating meat again? Why do you think your body needs meat, is it a different type of protein that you're lacking when you eat veggie?

I really think this is something I need to try, but I'm nervous. Meat grosses me out and I have zero idea how to cook the stuff.

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Soy is one of the top 12 food allergies in humans and other mammals. It is no more fit for human consumption than bamboo leaves which Panda's manage to survive on or grass which cows manage to survive on.

Just because soy can be an allergen for some people does not make it bad for everyone, just those allergic to it. Some people are allergic to peanuts, does that mean it's bad for everyone?

Sure feel free to much down a packet of rat poision... in moderation of course. Of course a small amount of rat poision can be good for some people ...

You will die if you eat rat poisoning. Unless you are allergic to soy you won't die. It's actually good for your body in many ways. As far as I can tell "soy is bad" is just your opinion.

Obviously not ... an easy diet is .. well easy. Meat and two veg while not the heathiest choice is still a moderate balanced choice. That is not to say you cannot have a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet but it is simply not easy.

Not easy for someone uneducated in nutrition.

Eat as many potatoes as you like and you will always have an amino acid inbalance. Indeed with the exception of soy there is little vegetable protein that is balanced and hence it needs balancing against other proteins ... its all possible its just not easy.

I don't see the point in this statement. You can eat all the hamburgers you want and it still is not balanced nutrition. Being a meat eater does not necessarily mean you are eating a balanced diet. Aparantly you have to put some thought into it.

Erm, well if someone has problems and asks then is it not the right thing to do to point them in the right direction? Perhaps the problem is vegans and vegetarians who keep insisting that it is a healthy diet.

It is a healthy diet. I don't see any evidence to the contrary.

In the end there is no need for us to be healthy, many people lead fulfilling lives without being healthy and indeed being 'healthy' is simply a term for not dying soon. The healthiest person can walk out and be hit by a bus anytime.

I guess we should all just run out eat all the gluten we can find, smoke, drink, have sex with strangers...we're just going to die anyway, right? I don't put much stock in that fatalistic way of thinking.

The human body is designed to be omnivorous, it is the basis of its sucess and flexibility.

I agree. Humans are designed to be omnivores. We can eat a balanced diet as vegetarians as well. We have the brains to come up with alternatives and understand the consequences of out actions.

Chimpanzee's are NOT vegetarian.... not by a long way their diet includes eggs, mammals and birds.

So the omnivorous nature of man and his predecessors goes back some 300,000 years at least.

Chimpanzees have a diet that consists of about 95% plant food. The majority of the 5% meat comes from insects. Want to eat like a chimp? Be my guest. :)

Because of mans higher reasoning we have developed ways to use unnatural sources of food. this doesn't make them healthy, it just means we have developed ways of taking usually inedible high nutritional value foods and making them partially edible and partially digestable. Wheat, rice and Soy are the overriding ones but not all. It is hardly surprising that the human body develops intolerances to foods it was never designed to eat.

Rice is a very healthy, hypoallergenic food. You should read the China Study if you wish to understand nutrition better.

By the way, just to let you know, rice, wheat and soy are all natural foods that grow in nature. They were not created in a lab. They can be great sources of nutrition. Wheat is not bad for someone unless they are gluten intolerant, like us. I know some people like to convince themselves the things they can not eat are bad for everyone. I think it's a coping mechanism so they don't miss that food so much.

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kb - I knew things weren't right for a while. I tried pinpointing my symptoms and adjusting my diet to address them. I took all sorts of supplements, added more soy, completely removed soy, added and removed dairy, etc. I just got worse and worse. When I went back to eating meat, it was something I tried out of desperation.

It obviously went pretty well, as I haven't gone back. Avoid anything even a little bit fatty at first. Animal fat is WAY gross and I couldn't eat anything that wasn't totally lean for years. After two years back eating meat my mom's corned beef finally got me. I'm Irish, what can I say?

As far as actual physical reactions, there were none to speak of. I didn't have any digestive issues that were new (this was pre dx for me, so I had digestive issues that ended up being from gluten). It didn't make me feel ill in any way. No cramping or fatigue. And I assure you I was super paranoid about feeling bad. The first few times I just sorty of waited to feel bad because I was SURE I would. I started to feel better almost immediately. All I really felt was satisfied in a way that I hadn't in a long time. Like I was actually getting something out of my meal. I would say that I was a lot better after about 3 months, but time is foggy from that period, so I could be off.

Cooking was VERY intimidating for me. That's part of the reason I stuck with lean meats. I can't handle touching raw meat. At least with chicken breasts or steak you can just move them with tongs. No playing with ground meat for me. My favorite cooking discovery? The Foreman grill. I have one that holds 2 chix breasts. It sits on my stove all the time. You just plug it in to heat up for a few minutes, set the meat on it, close the lid, and set your time. Everything takes 5-8 minutes to cook except fish (less time, but I personally think my grill is too hot for fish). Even if I use frozen meat it's usually done in 8 minutes. It's a good starting place for you to determine how done is done/ what done looks and smells like. I don't use a timer anymore unless I've got a lot going on. I can smell it when it's done. After it's cooled you just wipe it down with paper towel. And I can cook everyone's meat together on it since meat is all that ever touches it.

I forced some good friends to supervise my efforts at first and share their "meat wisdom." They were entertained and glad (sometimes, haha) to get a free meal for their help.

I also wasn't very good at assembling a meat + sides meal after being veg. I just didn't make meals like that. I did lots of chix cut up over salads at first. It was wierd having potatoes, veg, and rice not be the stars of the show.

I really couldn't even begin to speculate as to why being veg wasn't good for me. It went swimmingly for my bf who ate all the same things as me and it seemed fine for our son as well. They returned to the land of meat with me, but just because that's what I was cooking. Lazy boys ;)

BTW, If you want to you can pm me or email me. I'd be happy to help if you want a "buddy". I'm prplhair "at" hotmail "dot" com.

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Rice is a very healthy, hypoallergenic food.

I just wanted to note that rice is not a 'hypoallergenic food'. In countries where rice consumption is quite common, it is a fairly common allergen, just like wheat is one of the major allergens in this country. Exposure lelve *is* related to allergy development.

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when i was young, until recently, i have had a very large sensitivity to rice. i do not get anaphylitical anything, but i do get hives and feel very ill afterwards.

what i do not understand from this whole thread is, if you are eating healthfully, getting all your nutritients, and balancing your proteins, carbohydrates and fat, then what is the big deal? really.

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Hypoallergenic means less likely to cause an allergic reaction. It doesn't mean it can not. And yes, rice is less likely to cause an allergic reaction then many other foods.

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By the way, just to let you know, rice, wheat and soy are all natural foods that grow in nature. They were not created in a lab. They can be great sources of nutrition. Wheat is not bad for someone unless they are gluten intolerant, like us. I know some people like to convince themselves the things they can not eat are bad for everyone. I think it's a coping mechanism so they don't miss that food so much.

Actually, wheat is not good for most people. It is like rope, and in its natural form, its not digestable. I am not going to argue with the meat vs. no meat points because I think that you can make anything "healthy" depending on your idea of "health". But I just wanted to throw in to the mix that wheat is not that good for us. Infact, the only reason that grains are so "good" for us in the U.S. is because they are enriched and fortified with iron, folic acid, and other nutrients, in the process. You might want to check out the book Dangerous Grains . It is really interesting.

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Actually, wheat is not good for most people. It is like rope, and in its natural form, its not digestable. I am not going to argue with the meat vs. no meat points because I think that you can make anything "healthy" depending on your idea of "health". But I just wanted to throw in to the mix that wheat is not that good for us. Infact, the only reason that grains are so "good" for us in the U.S. is because they are enriched and fortified with iron, folic acid, and other nutrients, in the process. You might want to check out the book Dangerous Grains . It is really interesting.

That's true. In the context of human evolution, people have only been eating wheat for a very short period of time. It's not a natural food for humans to consume.

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Erm, well if someone has problems and asks then is it not the right thing to do to point them in the right direction? Perhaps the problem is vegans and vegetarians who keep insisting that it is a healthy diet.

It is a healthy diet. I don't see any evidence to the contrary.

What sort of evidence to the contrary would draw your attention?

The issue is not that a vegetarian diet can't be healthy. Generally vegetarians who eat a variety of foods will end up with an adequate diet.

The problem is that a vegan diet may well not be balanced if the vegan is not inclined to do research on their intake of protein and other components. (In fact, I have never met a vegetarian or vegan who had ever analyzed even one meal's intake of nutrients, nor were they willing to attempt it...) A vegan diet is less likely to accidentally be healthy than the diet of somebody who eats more foods. Just because it can be a balanced diet doesn't mean it necessarily is. Then, take away wheat and soy and what do you have?

What you have is a diet composed of a limited number of low-protein foods, a diet that is probably not adequate for people undergoing physical stress of any sort.

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What sort of evidence to the contrary would draw your attention?

I'm just saying that your opinion follwed by anecdotal evidence does not qualify as "proof" of anything. You could share some articles from peer reviewed journals perhaps. And the here-say opnion of an anestesiologist is not scientific proof. Anestesiolgists are not nutritionists nor are they required to complete a course in nutrition. Doctors are not even required to take classes on nutrition.

Also, just because you do not know a vegetarian who knows as much about nutrition as you seem to think you do, does not mean they do not exist. That is anecdotal evidence. It means nothing in the context of a logical debate on the topic.

Just because it can be a balanced diet doesn't mean it necessarily is. Then, take away wheat and soy and what do you have?

What you have is a diet composed of a limited number of low-protein foods, a diet that is probably not adequate for people undergoing physical stress of any sort.

You have rice, potatos, allt he other grains that a person with celiacs can eat. Also you have a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, legumes, beans, nuts. I can go on and on!

So, I just want to know exactly where you are coming from: How much protein do you believe the average person needs in a normal day?

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Hypoallergenic means less likely to cause an allergic reaction. It doesn't mean it can not. And yes, rice is less likely to cause an allergic reaction then many other foods.

My point is, in a diet that has a fair amount of rice in it, it is not less likely to cause a reaction than many other foods. If it were more commonly eaten in the US, it would be on the list of "most common allergens", as it is in countries where it is more commonly eaten.

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Danielle,

That's great that you've gained weight and are starting to feel better. I've been researching gluten free/dairy free and soy free stuff. Kinnikinnick was one of the things I had been looking into. Do you buy it at a local store or did you order it?

I bought some kinnikinnick things at Whole Foods, but from now on, I'm going to order it from their website because the nearest Whole Foods is about two hours away.

how 'bout everyone just eats what agrees with their bods? B)

Sounds good to me :D

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Just because soy can be an allergen for some people does not make it bad for everyone, just those allergic to it. Some people are allergic to peanuts, does that mean it's bad for everyone?

No you are putrting the cart before the horse.... so many people are allergic to it because it is not a natural food. It is bad for people in many ways

# High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.

# Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic orders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.

# Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.

# Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.

# Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body’s requirement for B12.

# Soy foods increase the body’s requirement for vitamin D.

You will die if you eat rat poisoning.
No you won't, not in moderation it just thins the blood, hundreds of thousands of people take it everyday on prescription, especially stroke victims and people who had had coronary bypasses

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No you are putrting the cart before the horse.... so many people are allergic to it because it is not a natural food. It is bad for people in many ways

Soy allergy was virtually unheard of before the 1980s because that is when scientists began to genetically modify it. It is on the list of top allergens because the genetically modified version of soy increased it's toxic properties (all vegetable food is acapable of having increased toxic properties through genetic modification).

Fish is in the top allergens as well. But for those not allergic to fish it can be very beneficial to their health. The same can be said for nuts. Soy and wheat are not the only major allergens.

Its not just my opinion it is the opinion of many researchers. There is a lot of push from the soy industry to disprove this just as the tobacco industry spend billions countering claims that smoking was bad for you but it certainly isn't just my opinion.

That is an unsupported statement. What researcheres are you talking about? And who blew the top off this conspiracy theory that the soy industry is trying to ruin us all? The same could be said for the beef industry, the dairy industry, the green onion industry. Where does this finger pointing stop?

New Protein can only be formed when all the required amino acids are present. If one essential amino acid is low then the amount of amino acids left over will not be used but broken down into glycogen and byproducts. When this happens the body is put into a katabolic state, in other words it starts eating itself.

In the course of 24 hours you can combine legumes/beans and grains and you have complete proteins that you need for your body to be healthy and happy. And there is such a thing as a healthy diet.

Just because you refuse to look doesn't mean the evidence is not there.

I've looked and looked and haven't found anything that conclusively supports your position that being vegetarian is detrimental to ones health, or that soy is dangerous.

I can point you to papers on the dangers of soy and on the protein composition of different foods but if you refuse to read and take in then I can't make you see.

I am merely pointing out that it is a personal choice to be vegan or vegetarian, and as I started by saying there is no such thing as a healthy diet, just degrees. I support everyones right to make that choice but I support equally their right to make it on informed information.

I don't think vegetarians need you to inform them. Many of them are already extremely informed on nutrition, more-so than the average person. Just because they do not agree with your OPINION that it is bad doesn't mean they are ignorant on the topic.

Erm wrong.... wheat is a human modified deriviative of natural wild grasses which has been changed through generations of selective breeding. Wheat is a completely new species not just a modification of properties of an extanct one. A chiuaua is more closely related to a grey wolf than wheat is to its natural predecessors.

The cow you know today is a genetically engineered frankenstein that isn't wuite comparable to their ancient ancestors. The same can be said for many foods. That's how agriculte works. They improve the size and quality of the food so they can make more money selling to more and more people. What's left to eat? You cuold possibly forage for food in the forest.

Being created in what we call a lab has no bearing on if they are natural.

Yes it does! Genetically modified food is dangerous and not the same as human helping along natural selection to create a better crop yield.

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That is an unsupported statement. What researcheres are you talking about? And who blew the top off this conspiracy theory that the soy industry is trying to ruin us all? The same could be said for the beef industry, the dairy industry, the green onion industry. Where does this finger pointing stop?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt=Abstract

In the course of 24 hours you can combine legumes/beans and grains and you have complete proteins that you need for your body to be healthy and happy. And there is such a thing as a healthy diet.
Well you don't unless you can balance them gram for gram of amino acids but I doubt you are going to change your opinion regardless of evidence.

I've looked and looked and haven't found anything that conclusively supports your position that being vegetarian is detrimental to ones health, or that soy is dangerous.
I never said being vegetarian is detrimental to onces health, I said an unbalanced diet is and that vegetarians have a bigger problem balancing the essential amino acids and hence it is harder to have a balanced vegetarian diet. If you can't find information on soy being dangerous then you are either looking in the wrong places or don't want to accept the facts.

I don't think vegetarians need you to inform them. Many of them are already extremely informed on nutrition, more-so than the average person. Just because they do not agree with your OPINION that it is bad doesn't mean they are ignorant on the topic.
When did I suggest vegetanarianism is BAD? So far you have avoided any answers to my questions on amino acid balance and how the body uses proteins, this hardly furthers your case. Can you tell me off the top of your head the dominant amino acid in potato? So although the average vegetarian may be more informed on nutrition than the average guy doesn't mean they understand it completely at a cellular level. In the same way most celaics are better informed than the average person too.

The original question is based on why a nutritionist might suggest adding meat to a diet....

I am surely not alone in the fact that most nutritionist can hardly tell you what products contain gluten, loet alone start explaining body chemistry tot heir average patient hence the addition of meat is the easiest way for them to provide a balanced diet.

Before you contradict me on this please tell me exactly tho the gram how many grams of lysine would be needed from another source if I ate 100g of potatoes? If you don't know this off the top of your head you are not getitng a balanced diet because you can't just say "ill eat some pulses, some root vegatables and everything will balance out"

The cow you know today is a genetically engineered frankenstein that isn't wuite comparable to their ancient ancestors. The same can be said for many foods. That's how agriculte works. They improve the size and quality of the food so they can make more money selling to more and more people. What's left to eat? You cuold possibly forage for food in the forest.

The cow today is still the same species as that of 10,000 or 100,000 years ago. Indeed the cows I eat are not so different, my preferred race being Charolaise.

Yes it does! Genetically modified food is dangerous and not the same as human helping along natural selection to create a better crop yield.

Firstly Soy is the number 1 agricualtural export from the US

Secondly some 86% of it is GM.

Thirdly there is little difference between making a new species by splicing DNA and by cross breeding as is done with roses and was done to produce wheat... one just takes a lot longer than the other.

Tricale is a relatively new species produced first in 1875 by forced pollentation and selective weeding out using wheat and rye, no GM manipulation required... if we reinvented it today Monstanto could just graft the genes into the wheat but the effect is the same.

The additonal danger of GM crops is they splice genes which could never have been introduced by cross pollenation and produce species which could never have survived...

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Well, I just read this whole post. Whew!

I think a big danger in our thinking is assuming that anything is right for all people, or wrong for all people. Examples: garlic. Everyone thinks garlic is so awesome - it makes me, my mother, and many others balloon up and be in misery for hours. Wine - good for the heart, right? If you're a man, most likely; if you're a woman, less so and likely to cause breast cancer.

Each persons body is different. I have done well on vegan + salmon + eggs for years, but my husband can't go veggie for more than a day or two without becoming pale and sickly. I know some raw foodists who are remarkably healthy (at least in the summertime), but others who are ridiculously thin and manic.

It seems to me this argument has become about semantics and evidence, when we all know that evidence can happily support any side of this argument, or nearly any other for that matter. Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics...isn't that how that saying goes? We should ask ourselves what is so important to us about convincing the ther person we're right.

Lastly, I recall one person said that they had never known a veggie who thought about their diets. Well, you certainly don't know me. Of course, I know those folks too. They go to the store and just buy replacements for the meat - SOY and DAIRY...and this is in part because of marketing campaigns by those industries. In that sense, I agree. But you seemed to have some disdain for the veggies, rather than for the huge corporations raking in cash at the expense of the health of Americans (including those who eat meat). That's who we should all be railing against, not one another.

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Bully4You, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! :)

I'm not a vegetarian, but I admire anyone who does it for ethical reasons. I definitly believe everyone should try to buy local and organic whenever possible. That's something I feel strongly about.

Firstly Soy is the number 1 agricualtural export from the US

Secondly some 86% of it is GM.

Yep, and the majority of that soy is fed to livestock, and then YOU eat it. So either way you are getting evil soy in your system, one way or another. Scary, huh? :P

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What sort of evidence to the contrary would draw your attention?

I'm just saying that your opinion follwed by anecdotal evidence does not qualify as "proof" of anything. You could share some articles from peer reviewed journals perhaps. And the here-say opnion of an anestesiologist is not scientific proof. Anestesiolgists are not nutritionists nor are they required to complete a course in nutrition. Doctors are not even required to take classes on nutrition.

Also, just because you do not know a vegetarian who knows as much about nutrition as you seem to think you do, does not mean they do not exist. That is anecdotal evidence. It means nothing in the context of a logical debate on the topic.

So what sort of evidence do you accept? Are you saying your sole source of nutrition info is peer-reviewed medical journals? That's difficult to believe.

I've relied on books like The Nutrition Facts Desk Reference. The nutritional composition of food is basically known. All a person need do is make the calculations. You have not, and you did not offer to do so. You seem to be saying you don't need to because the vegetarian diet is complete by definition, and that there is no evidence that you would accept.

Just because it can be a balanced diet doesn't mean it necessarily is. Then, take away wheat and soy and what do you have?

What you have is a diet composed of a limited number of low-protein foods, a diet that is probably not adequate for people undergoing physical stress of any sort.

You have rice, potatoes, all the other grains that a person with celiacs can eat. Also you have a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, legumes, beans, nuts. I can go on and on!

Since you have indicated you don't need to crunch the numbers, I'll do some number-crunching for you.

How much of the following do you need to eat to get a day's protein intake? I've selected these foods because they are the ones which you gave as examples of foods that will produce an adequate diet. My numbers here are for a 50 kg person.

Rice - 1 pound 9 ounces dry weight, before cooking. Rice is not a high protein food! To eat this much rice would give that 50 kg person 2500 calories, more calories than they need, but with no room left for other foods.

Potatoes - 7 pounds if you eat the skins - 1883 calories. Too bad if you like butter, no calories to spare.

Fruit (ex apples) - 62.4 pounds

Vegetables (ex broccoli) - 6 pounds

Legumes (ex kidney beans) - 3 cups cooked - 654 calories

Nuts (ex almonds) - 8.75 oz - 1460 calories

So, I just want to know exactly where you are coming from: How much protein do you believe the average person needs in a normal day?

What's belief got to do with the amount of protein our bodies require? The standard calculation is that a person's dietary intake of protein should be 1 gram per kilogram of bodyweight. People who take in less than this are less healthy than those who do. A vegan diet is on the low side of that, which may not be enough for people in a health stress situation.

The idea that the nutritional value of vegetarian diets is beyond either consideration or discussion is an idea which has both political and religious aspects to it.

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