What If...

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Oh and she had heard nothing about the NIH reccommending that all diabetics be tested for celiac. I gave her more of an education than she gave me that day.

Do you have a link to that recommendation by the NIH? I'd like to forward it to my parents.

My dad was diagnosed a few months ago with diabetes (and he's in his 80's!). He now exercises every day, severely lowered his carb intake (his doctor actually advised him to do so), lost 20 pounds, and is now officially not diabetic. I was trying to talk him and my mom into trying a gluten-free diet (my mom has had stomach problems for years, but insists that it's from other causes) with no luck, but I bet if I could show her a recommendation from the NIH, that might do the trick!

[Ursa Major]

Doll, I strongly object to being called 'diseased', because I have Asperger Syndrome. It is NOT a disease, as it is inherent and can (thankfully) not be 'cured'. Because if somehow it was possible to make me what is considered 'normal', I wouldn't be me any more if that was forced on me and others like me.

There are many advantages to higher functioning autism. Bill Gates has Asperger Syndrome..........has he not contributed to society? Stephen Spielberg is an Aspie (I prefer being called that, because saying 'I have AS' makes it sound like a disease, but it is a neurological difference, not a disease). Albert Einstein was VERY autistic as a little kid, and became higher functioning as he grew older. There are many other examples.

What distinguishes people with AS from NTs is, that they don't understand herd mentality, that they can't pick up on 'unwritten rules' and therefore constantly have problems due to being misunderstood and 'putting their foot into their mouths'. I never know if something I say may be unacceptable by someone's standard.

I would function just fine if I would be with people like me, who would always say what they mean and mean what they say. Who wouldn't have ridiculous rules that are totally illogical. Because, I am a logical person, certain rules make no sense at all, and I can't remember them.

Small talk for instance is not possible for me. I get to the point, if there is one. If there isn't a point in what people are talking about, I say nothing. I cannot lie, I always either tell the truth, or if that isn't desirable, keep my mouth shut.

I don't care about fashion. I wear what I like. It has to be comfortable and soft and be pleasing to MY eyes. Those are the only criteria for me when clothes shopping. So, I don't run out and buy a whole new wardrobe every year, just because the fashion industry proclaims that last year's style is 'out' and have changed the style drastically for next year. The only reason behind that is, that they want to gouge people who are gullible enough to fall for that scheme, and make lots of money off them. I wear my clothes until they either are worn out, or I get sick of them for some reason (usually that goes together with me), at which point I replenish my wardrobe.

Anyway, just because the NTs have decided that people who aren't social enough have something inherently wrong with them, doesn't mean they're right. If they wouldn't shun, ridicule and bully everybody who is different from the norm (something I had to put up with all my life), but be a little more tolerant, then there would be no problem.

If Albert Einstein and his parents would have lived in today's society, he'd have been in special ed classes, treated like an outcast and like he was retarded, and would never have ended up achieving anything. People actually used to be more tolerant of loners and hermits. They used to think that the 'scatterbrained', socially inept, untidy looking etc. professors were cute. Not any more. Now those people are declared 'diseased'. Quite a change, and certainly not a change for the better.

[CarlaB]

I really like you, Ursula. Direct and to the point. If that's because you're AS, you've made a good point!

Much of this is over my head today because I simply cannot digest more than a two sentence paragraph with this brain fog. I wanted to comment, however, that my daughter tested negative with Enterolab. I do not have the genes for celiac, but have the symptoms. I have the gluten intolerance genes. I was gluten-free before conventional testing, so it all came out negative, of course. Well, the blood test was wrong, they only tested for the IgA, and I know some people are diagnosed based on IgG, so who knows what that would have been.

I do know that I absolutely cannot eat even a crumb of gluten or I suffer as I am right now.

[Guest Doll]

Doll, I strongly object to being called 'diseased', because I have Asperger Syndrome. It is NOT a disease, as it is inherent and can (thankfully) not be 'cured'. Because if somehow it was possible to make me what is considered 'normal', I wouldn't be me any more if that was forced on me and others like me.

There are many advantages to higher functioning autism. Bill Gates has Asperger Syndrome..........has he not contributed to society? Stephen Spielberg is an Aspie (I prefer being called that, because saying 'I have AS' makes it sound like a disease, but it is a neurological difference, not a disease). Albert Einstein was VERY autistic as a little kid, and became higher functioning as he grew older. There are many other examples.

What distinguishes people with AS from NTs is, that they don't understand herd mentality, that they can't pick up on 'unwritten rules' and therefore constantly have problems due to being misunderstood and 'putting their foot into their mouths'. I never know if something I say may be unacceptable by someone's standard.

I would function just fine if I would be with people like me, who would always say what they mean and mean what they say. Who wouldn't have ridiculous rules that are totally illogical. Because, I am a logical person, certain rules make no sense at all, and I can't remember them.

Small talk for instance is not possible for me. I get to the point, if there is one. If there isn't a point in what people are talking about, I say nothing. I cannot lie, I always either tell the truth, or if that isn't desirable, keep my mouth shut.

I don't care about fashion. I wear what I like. It has to be comfortable and soft and be pleasing to MY eyes. Those are the only criteria for me when clothes shopping. So, I don't run out and buy a whole new wardrobe every year, just because the fashion industry proclaims that last year's style is 'out' and have changed the style drastically for next year. The only reason behind that is, that they want to gouge people who are gullible enough to fall for that scheme, and make lots of money off them. I wear my clothes until they either are worn out, or I get sick of them for some reason (usually that goes together with me), at which point I replenish my wardrobe.

Anyway, just because the NTs have decided that people who aren't social enough have something inherently wrong with them, doesn't mean they're right. If they wouldn't shun, ridicule and bully everybody who is different from the norm (something I had to put up with all my life), but be a little more tolerant, then there would be no problem.

If Albert Einstein and his parents would have lived in today's society, he'd have been in special ed classes, treated like an outcast and like he was retarded, and would never have ended up achieving anything. People actually used to be more tolerant of loners and hermits. They used to think that the 'scatterbrained', socially inept, untidy looking etc. professors were cute. Not any more. Now those people are declared 'diseased'. Quite a change, and certainly not a change for the better.

OMG! Sorry, Ursula! I was not trying to imply that! Oops! I actually think I am a lot like you in that I can "take or leave people" and prefer to be alone. I just attribute it to my upbringing and personality, but who knows. I also make my own standards and rules

I guess we get so caught up in society making new Dx that we tend to forget that some traits are simply a collective way of how people function, personality traits, etc. and NOT abnormal.

I just was using the term for the sake of gfp's theory. I didn't quite grasp his correlation.

I totally agree we need to be more tolerant of people. Actually, we need to embrace those who are "different" because they are usually gifted, as you pointed out.

Totally sorry you got the wrong impression! Hope you can forgive me!

Thank you Carla for your input as well.

Hehe..Ursula, I just put my foot in my mouth. Maybe I am closer to being an "Aspie" than I realize....

[Ursa Major]

OMG! Sorry, Ursula! I was not trying to imply that! Oops! I actually think I am a lot like you in that I can "take or leave people" and prefer to be alone. I just attribute it to my upbringing and personality, but who knows. I also make my own standards and rules

I guess we get so caught up in society making new Dx that we tend to forget that some traits are simply a collective way of how people function, personality traits, etc. and NOT abnormal.

I just was using the term for the sake of gfp's theory. I didn't quite grasp his correlation.

I totally agree we need to be more tolerant of people. Actually, we need to embrace those who are "different" because they are usually gifted, as you pointed out.

Totally sorry you got the wrong impression! Hope you can forgive me!

Thank you Carla for your input as well.

Well, I accept your apology and forgive you. By the way, gfp thinks he may be an Aspie as well. Which is why he is saying what he does.

Ah, I am editing here, as you must have while I was writing.

Yes, I was thinking maybe you are possibly closer to being an Aspie than you think. Because you said what you did without thinking carefully about it first.

[Guest Doll]

Well, I accept your apology and forgive you. By the way, gfp thinks he may be an Aspie as well. Which is why he is saying what he does.

Ah, I am editing here, as you must have while I was writing.

Yes, I was thinking maybe you are possibly closer to being an Aspie than you think. Because you said what you did without thinking carefully about it first.

That describes me to a T! LOL! I always thought I had the "Only Child Syndrome". Meaning I am used to stating my opinions It is also very easy to be open in a forum and a medium such as this.

I do think you are great and never meant for what I said to be come across that way. Hey, I even checked my posts and it was actually gfp that referred to Autism as a "disease"! I never even used the term!

Just because I am now curious and not familiar with it, what is the criteria for Dx. AS? How is it different from people who tend to have specific if unconventional personality traits?

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Doll, I strongly object to being called 'diseased', because I have Asperger Syndrome. It is NOT a disease, as it is inherent and can (thankfully) not be 'cured'. Because if somehow it was possible to make me what is considered 'normal', I wouldn't be me any more if that was forced on me and others like me.

I totally agree. However, I do feel very strongly that you could have been taught (NOT forced) in such a way as to be able to function more like NTs. I would even think, if you weren't so dead set against it, that you could be taught (not forced) even now.

What distinguishes people with AS from NTs is, that they don't understand herd mentality, that they can't pick up on 'unwritten rules' and therefore constantly have problems due to being misunderstood and 'putting their foot into their mouths'. I never know if something I say may be unacceptable by someone's standard.

Again, people with AS can be taught HOW to understand unwritten rules and body/facial language (which is not the same thing as "herd mentality," which carries a very different connotation). It all depends on who is doing the teaching and how.

I would function just fine if I would be with people like me, who would always say what they mean and mean what they say. Who wouldn't have ridiculous rules that are totally illogical. Because, I am a logical person, certain rules make no sense at all, and I can't remember them.

There is a difference between being logical and being so narrow-minded that you can't understand logic that comes from a different viewpoint. The biggest difficulty for people with AS is that they are unable to understand other people's perspectives. Saying that the problem is that people are illogical is over-simplifying the problem without recognizing that the source of the problem is the differences in people's perspective.

Small talk for instance is not possible for me. I get to the point, if there is one. If there isn't a point in what people are talking about, I say nothing. I cannot lie, I always either tell the truth, or if that isn't desirable, keep my mouth shut.

When you say, "if there isn't a point," you are shoving your lack of understanding into the other person's brain. Just because you don't see or understand the point doesn't mean that there isn't one! Again, this has a lot to do with understanding the perspective of others. I cannot stress enough that this can be taught. It's kind of like learning a foreign language/culture--it's a matter of translating and thorough explanation. Of course, if someone doesn't want to learn a foreign language, then it isn't possible for that person to learn, no matter who is doing the teaching.

I don't care about fashion. I wear what I like. It has to be comfortable and soft and be pleasing to MY eyes. Those are the only criteria for me when clothes shopping. So, I don't run out and buy a whole new wardrobe every year, just because the fashion industry proclaims that last year's style is 'out' and have changed the style drastically for next year. The only reason behind that is, that they want to gouge people who are gullible enough to fall for that scheme, and make lots of money off them. I wear my clothes until they either are worn out, or I get sick of them for some reason (usually that goes together with me), at which point I replenish my wardrobe.

Ursula, I call your take on this "good sense!" I know very few women who can afford to run out and replace their wardrobe every year, and even fewer who actually like the newest styles year after year! Most of the women I know try to buy what's referred to

Anyway, just because the NTs have decided that people who aren't social enough have something inherently wrong with them, doesn't mean they're right. If they wouldn't shun, ridicule and bully everybody who is different from the norm (something I had to put up with all my life), but be a little more tolerant, then there would be no problem.

I think you are on to something there. I suspect that the bullying you have received (and from what you've written, you've received a SHOCKING amount--my heart just breaks for what you've had to deal with) has only reinforced some of the typical AS tendencies that may cause your difficulties in social situations. I'd bet my hat that bullying has caused more problems for you than AS.

You have many, many strengths and abilities which most of us on this board appreciate even if your family doesn't. Had you grown up with (or married into) a family who was kind and sensitive, who emphasized and praised your strengths and gently, gradually, and patiently taught you to translate from "AS-land" to "NT-land" and back again without forcing you to lose your strengths, without forcing you to be someone you are not, you might very well feel very differently about NTs, and not lump them all into a group! (Do you realize that your generalizations about NTs tend to be awfully demeaning?)

If Albert Einstein and his parents would have lived in today's society, he'd have been in special ed classes, treated like an outcast and like he was retarded, and would never have ended up achieving anything. People actually used to be more tolerant of loners and hermits. They used to think that the 'scatterbrained', socially inept, untidy looking etc. professors were cute. Not any more. Now those people are declared 'diseased'. Quite a change, and certainly not a change for the better.

If Albert Einstein had lived in my family, or perhaps in Temple Grandin's, or Bill Gates', who knows, he might have achieved even more than he did. When you rail against "today's society," you are lumping a lot of us in there who probably do things very differently than you are aware.

Yes, I was thinking maybe you are possibly closer to being an Aspie than you think. Because you said what you did without thinking carefully about it first.

Please, let's not over-generalize here! Most of us (with or without a diagnosis of ANYTHING!) put our feet in our mouths! It's called, "being huyman." I truly don't believe it has anything to do with a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome.

That said, I do feel that there are far fewer differences and more similarities among us all than we might think!

[ravenwoodglass]

Doll, I strongly object to being called 'diseased', because I have Asperger Syndrome. It is NOT a disease, as it is inherent and can (thankfully) not be 'cured'. Because if somehow it was possible to make me what is considered 'normal', I wouldn't be me any more if that was forced on me and others like me.

There are many advantages to higher functioning autism. Bill Gates has Asperger Syndrome..........has he not contributed to society? Stephen Spielberg is an Aspie (I prefer being called that, because saying 'I have AS' makes it sound like a disease, but it is a neurological difference, not a disease). Albert Einstein was VERY autistic as a little kid, and became higher functioning as he grew older. There are many other examples.

What distinguishes people with AS from NTs is, that they don't understand herd mentality, that they can't pick up on 'unwritten rules' and therefore constantly have problems due to being misunderstood and 'putting their foot into their mouths'. I never know if something I say may be unacceptable by someone's standard.

I would function just fine if I would be with people like me, who would always say what they mean and mean what they say. Who wouldn't have ridiculous rules that are totally illogical. Because, I am a logical person, certain rules make no sense at all, and I can't remember them.

Small talk for instance is not possible for me. I get to the point, if there is one. If there isn't a point in what people are talking about, I say nothing. I cannot lie, I always either tell the truth, or if that isn't desirable, keep my mouth shut.

I don't care about fashion. I wear what I like. It has to be comfortable and soft and be pleasing to MY eyes. Those are the only criteria for me when clothes shopping. So, I don't run out and buy a whole new wardrobe every year, just because the fashion industry proclaims that last year's style is 'out' and have changed the style drastically for next year. The only reason behind that is, that they want to gouge people who are gullible enough to fall for that scheme, and make lots of money off them. I wear my clothes until they either are worn out, or I get sick of them for some reason (usually that goes together with me), at which point I replenish my wardrobe.

Anyway, just because the NTs have decided that people who aren't social enough have something inherently wrong with them, doesn't mean they're right. If they wouldn't shun, ridicule and bully everybody who is different from the norm (something I had to put up with all my life), but be a little more tolerant, then there would be no problem.

If Albert Einstein and his parents would have lived in today's society, he'd have been in special ed classes, treated like an outcast and like he was retarded, and would never have ended up achieving anything. People actually used to be more tolerant of loners and hermits. They used to think that the 'scatterbrained', socially inept, untidy looking etc. professors were cute. Not any more. Now those people are declared 'diseased'. Quite a change, and certainly not a change for the better.

Very well put. If it wasn't for us Aspie types our world would have much less art and science, good writing to read and research to help everyone. In my family of Aspies we are quite happy being the less than social folks who excell in our given areas, art, medicine and mechanics. There is much more time for us to work on the stuff that is important to us than there would be if we were more social. The emotional discomfort that gluten gave us is gone which allows us to really be able to be comfortable being who we are.

[Ursa Major]

Fiddle-Faddle, I agree that life would have been easier for me, if somebody would have gently and sensitively explained the rules to me when I was a kid, and would have helped me figure out how to make friends, rather than putting me down, making fun of me and, in some instances, outright hate me for being different.

But you are wrong when you think I am opposed to being taught the rules, and understanding NTs. I have always tried awfully hard to fit in and to try to understand. It took all my energy all these years! You know, pretending to be normal and being deathly afraid of somebody finding out that I was 'weird' and not like them was hell.

So, while I refuse now to pretend and will be myself, that doesn't mean that I am purposely insensitive and don't try to fit in. I have just decided that people who won't accept me for who I am aren't worthy of being my friends. There is a huge difference between rejecting all NTs, and just deciding to be me and not worry what they think.

In fact, all my friends are NTs. I don't have many friends, but I value the ones I have.

I have learned, through counselling, to understand NTs better. But you need to understand that I am at the very 'severe' end of being AS (if you want to put it in medical terms, which I'd normally rather not do), and no matter how hard I try, I truly CANNOT understand the way most NTs think.

Just on Friday my counsellor asked me, what I thought my husband would do or think if I did a certain thing, and I had to tell him, that I had no clue, since I absolutely cannot, no matter how long I think about it, predict what my husband might be thinking. His way of thinking is entirely foreign to me and is therefore completely unpredictable.

You must realize that I am quite capable of learning a foreign language. It isn't very hard, as far as I am concerned. On the other hand, the way NTs think is NOT just like a foreign language, it's much more different than that. It's a lot more complex. You can't teach emotions, you can't forge pathways in the brain that aren't there. It has been proven that people with AS use different parts of the brain for certain functions than NTs, making things more difficult.

The fact that most people (who know me superficially) have no clue I am actually autistic, because I have learned to appear 'normal' (whatever that means), should tell you that I have used an extraordinary amount of energy throughout my life to fit in, and to learn to be like others. Because, until I found out about AS only three years ago, I was told that something was wrong with me. I thought that maybe if people would find out my differences, they'd think I am crazy. In fact, I wasn't sure that I wasn't crazy. It's a huge relief to now know that I am NOT crazy, just different. And I am glad. And I refuse to pretend any more, for the sake of others.

[Nancym]

To a certain extent, everyone can produce some antibodies against ingesting anything. That is why I am uncertain if Enterolab testing is not giving EVERONE who takes the test some sort of false positive.

You should read his essay and look over his slides. I think you'd learn some stuff that you'd find interesting. I had the opportunity to hear him speak a month ago. He said that 30% of the random people off the street have antibodies to gliadin in their intestines. He also gets 100% correspondence to biopsy proven celiacs.

He's been keeping statistics of the people he has given diagnostic results to and whether the gluten-free diet helped their symptoms or not. There was very much a strong correlation between the antibodies and whether or not people responded to the diet.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

But you are wrong when you think I am opposed to being taught the rules, and understanding NTs.

I'm sorry, Ursula, I didn't mean to imply that YOU were opposed to learning to understand. From waht I've read, though, the majority of Aspies are--similar to deaf people being against the whole idea of cochlear implants.

Just on Friday my counsellor asked me, what I thought my husband would do or think if I did a certain thing, and I had to tell him, that I had no clue, since I absolutely cannot, no matter how long I think about it, predict what my husband might be thinking. His way of thinking is entirely foreign to me and is therefore completely unpredictable.

Based on what you've let slip about your husband, "unpredictable" is probably the nicest way to describe him....

You must realize that I am quite capable of learning a foreign language. It isn't very hard, as far as I am concerned. On the other hand, the way NTs think is NOT just like a foreign language, it's much more different than that. It's a lot more complex. You can't teach emotions, you can't forge pathways in the brain that aren't there. It has been proven that people with AS use different parts of the brain for certain functions than NTs, making things more difficult.

I did say, "foreign language/culture." It's the culture part that includes all the complexities. And you CAN teach emotions. I taught them to my son. I didn't realize that you don't HAVE to teach them to most children until my second child appeared. You CAN forge pathways in the brain that aren't there--but it takes time, and it is not easy.

[Guest Doll]

You should read his essay and look over his slides. I think you'd learn some stuff that you'd find interesting. I had the opportunity to hear him speak a month ago. He said that 30% of the random people off the street have antibodies to gliadin in their intestines. He also gets 100% correspondence to biopsy proven celiacs.

He's been keeping statistics of the people he has given diagnostic results to and whether the gluten-free diet helped their symptoms or not. There was very much a strong correlation between the antibodies and whether or not people responded to the diet.

Thanks for the heads up Nancy. I will have to research this. Right now I am on the fence, but if it is found to be accurate and help people get dx, without any "false" or missed dx's, I am all for it.

Mind you that conventional medicine also has limits with current Celiac testing too, but it is still the "gold standard" for me until I learn more!

[Guest Doll]

Do you have a link to that recommendation by the NIH? I'd like to forward it to my parents.

My dad was diagnosed a few months ago with diabetes (and he's in his 80's!). He now exercises every day, severely lowered his carb intake (his doctor actually advised him to do so), lost 20 pounds, and is now officially not diabetic. I was trying to talk him and my mom into trying a gluten-free diet (my mom has had stomach problems for years, but insists that it's from other causes) with no luck, but I bet if I could show her a recommendation from the NIH, that might do the trick!

Hey Fiddle-Faddle...All I was able to find was an NIH article relating Celiac to Type 1 diabetes, which I already mentioned. I know that Endo's are beginning to automatically screen kids with Type 1 for Celiac.

Screening for celiac disease involves testing for the presence of antibodies in the blood in people without symptoms. Americans are not routinely screened for celiac disease. Testing for celiac-related antibodies in children less than 5 years old may not be reliable. However, since celiac disease is hereditary, family members, particularly first-degree relatives-meaning parents, siblings, or children of people who have been diagnosed-may wish to be tested for the disease. About 5 to 15 percent of an affected person's first-degree relatives will also have the disease. About 3 to 8 percent of people with type 1 diabetes will have biopsy-confirmed celiac disease and 5 to 10 percent of people with Down syndrome will be diagnosed with celiac disease.

I am not aware of Type 2 (Adult onset usually related to obesity-different genetics and different cause) having a link to Celiac. Does your father have any related health problems? I would think it's probably pretty rare to live to 80 and not have some serious complications if you had undiagnosed Celiac, but it's possible.

The gluten-free diet can be healthier and naturally lower in carbs, which will help weight loss, which in turn can halt the progression of Type 2.

It is very common for older people to develop Type 2, especially if they are overweight.

You could tell your dad that eating gluten-free is an easy way to maintain his weight. However, only if he is eating healthy naturally gluten-free foods like beans, brown rice, vegetables, baked salmon, good fats like olive oil, etc! These foods are especially healthy for Type 2 diabetics. They are high fibre and anti-inflammatory. But watch out! Avoid processed stuff! It's easy to gain weight on gluten-free replacement products like cookies and pasta too! Exercise has also been shown to delay, improve, or even "reverse" Type 2.

Tell your mom to give the gluten-free diet a try with your dad, for "moral support". If she feels better, there you go! Mind you though, there are other causes for GI trouble, so make sure she sees her doctor if things don't improve.

A link from the NIDDK: Open Original Shared Link

You will have to scroll down to the CELIAC DISEASE heading. NOTE: IDDM is Type 1 diabetes (the autoimmune severe non-preventable insulin requiring kind), NIDDM is Type 2.

[Ursa Major]

Thanks for the heads up Nancy. I will have to research this. Right now I am on the fence, but if it is found to be accurate and help people get dx, without any "false" or missed dx's, I am all for it.

Mind you that conventional medicine also has limits with current Celiac testing too, but it is still the "gold standard" for me until I learn more!

Doll, like many people, you may have the impression that everybody who sends their samples to Enterolab gets diagnosed with celiac disease. That is not the case. First of all, of course only people who really believe they likely have celiac disease will be willing to spend their money on expensive testing, and most are right with their assumption. So, yes, most people who go with Enterolab will get diagnosed, because their reasons for wanting to be tested are usually very valid.

But I've heard of several cases where the results were negative. Carla sent in stool samples for two of her daughters, and one came back positive, and the other one negative (while her own was positive). So, even in the same family there were two different results.

I just saw in your signature that you got engaged four days ago, congratulations!

And Alison, most Aspies are opposed to changing because too many people want to FORCE them to change, and treat them like their way of being is not valid. I wonder why most NTs think that Aspies NEED to learn to be like them, rather than the other way round? Why is it that our way of being is invalid, and only the NT way is 'right'?

You see, we all have emotions. Some people show them, and some people don't. I find that I can either concentrate on smiling and looking the way NTs expect me to look (what they think is a pleasant expression), or I can concentrate on what I am doing at the moment. I can't do both at the same time, as that is multi-tasking, and and multi tasking is impossible for me to do.

So, when I sit at the computer and really concentrate hard on whatever it is I am doing, I often look like I am frowning. My husband will come up and say, 'Take that scowl off your face, it isn't becoming of a Christian woman to look like that, you ought to look joyful!'

Well, until he said that, I probably felt quite joyful inside. My natural expression is a serious expression (or a neutral one is probably closer to the truth), it has nothing to do with how I feel inside. I also manage to keep that neutral expression on my face when sad, upset, or whatever else, most of the time. That doesn't mean I am NOT feeling emotions. In fact, I have very strong emotions. Why do I have to show them? Because otherwise I confuse the NTs. Why does it matter? I honestly don't know, I haven't been able to quite figure that one out yet.

You probably didn't teach your son to HAVE emotions, you likely merely taught him to show them, so you could understand him better. If he was quite young when you did that, he wouldn't have been able to explain to you the difference. I can also manage to smile when talking to people (or when somebody is taking a picture of me), because I have learned that it is expected. But I stop smiling as soon as nobody looks at me any more. Because the smile is not for me, but for others, to fit in, to be accepted.

[Guest Doll]

Doll, like many people, you may have the impression that everybody who sends their samples to Enterolab gets diagnosed with celiac disease. That is not the case. First of all, of course only people who really believe they likely have celiac disease will be willing to spend their money on expensive testing, and most are right with their assumption. So, yes, most people who go with Enterolab will get diagnosed, because their reasons for wanting to be tested are usually very valid.

But I've heard of several cases where the results were negative. Carla sent in stool samples for two of her daughters, and one came back positive, and the other one negative (while her own was positive). So, even in the same family there were two different results.

I just saw in your signature that you got engaged four days ago, congratulations!

And Alison, most Aspies are opposed to changing because too many people want to FORCE them to change, and treat them like their way of being is not valid. I wonder why most NTs think that Aspies NEED to learn to be like them, rather than the other way round? Why is it that our way of being is invalid, and only the NT way is 'right'?

You see, we all have emotions. Some people show them, and some people don't. I find that I can either concentrate on smiling and looking the way NTs expect me to look (what they think is a pleasant expression), or I can concentrate on what I am doing at the moment. I can't do both at the same time, as that is multi-tasking, and and multi tasking is impossible for me to do.

So, when I sit at the computer and really concentrate hard on whatever it is I am doing, I often look like I am frowning. My husband will come up and say, 'Take that scowl off your face, it isn't becoming of a Christian woman to look like that, you ought to look joyful!'

Well, until he said that, I probably felt quite joyful inside. My natural expression is a serious expression (or a neutral one is probably closer to the truth), it has nothing to do with how I feel inside. I also manage to keep that neutral expression on my face when sad, upset, or whatever else, most of the time. That doesn't mean I am NOT feeling emotions. In fact, I have very strong emotions. Why do I have to show them? Because otherwise I confuse the NTs. Why does it matter? I honestly don't know, I haven't been able to quite figure that one out yet.

You probably didn't teach your son to HAVE emotions, you likely merely taught him to show them, so you could understand him better. If he was quite young when you did that, he wouldn't have been able to explain to you the difference. I can also manage to smile when talking to people (or when somebody is taking a picture of me), because I have learned that it is expected. But I stop smiling as soon as nobody looks at me any more. Because the smile is not for me, but for others, to fit in, to be accepted.

Thanks Ursula! I'm really excited!

[gfp]

Well, I accept your apology and forgive you. By the way, gfp thinks he may be an Aspie as well. Which is why he is saying what he does.

I certainly have more than a few traits.... but I prefer non-NT....I don't really know enough about it to think i am or am not.

[eKatherine]

Living in a place where more than one language is spoken, a person can generally manage to do everything he needs to do while limiting himself to contacts who speak his own language. Once he has done this, it is no longer necessarily required to attempt to communicate with speakers of any other language. Attempting to communicate is where most language learning takes place. If no attempt is made, and the person avoids situations where it might be necessary, then it is very possible to avoid learning a language that is spoken in your area.

There are lots of foreigners who are permanent residents of the United States who do not speak enough English to function outside of their home and circle of friends. Keep in mind that first exposure to a language can be traumatic, and learning at that point is difficult and slow. They give up, believing it is not possible, and once you believe that, it won't happen. Often older immigrants end up dependent on their children for contact with the English-speaking majority. I run into families like this in the school system all the time. The parent speaks insufficient English to communicate, and the teenage child serves as interpreter.

I understand it, but I don't get it either.

[gfp]

I understand it, but I don't get it either.

Nope its very weird....

Living in a place where more than one language is spoken, a person can generally manage to do everything he needs to do while limiting himself to contacts who speak his own language. Once he has done this, it is no longer necessarily required to attempt to communicate with speakers of any other language. Attempting to communicate is where most language learning takes place. If no attempt is made, and the person avoids situations where it might be necessary, then it is very possible to avoid learning a language that is spoken in your area.

I completely agree.... I know lots of anglophones in Paris who don't speak French... I had one friend who would call me up from KFC on his and say things like "Will you tell this guy....." then pass the phone over?????

(actually it usually included the words dumb and ****)

Yeah sure.. whho's the dumb **** ... they guy serving you who speaks French and probably a mother tongue or two as well or you who are in France expected some guy on mimimum wage to learn English????

There are lots of foreigners who are permanent residents of the United States who do not speak enough English to function outside of their home and circle of friends. Keep in mind that first exposure to a language can be traumatic, and learning at that point is difficult and slow. They give up, believing it is not possible, and once you believe that, it won't happen. Often older immigrants end up dependent on their children for contact with the English-speaking majority. I run into families like this in the school system all the time. The parent speaks insufficient English to communicate, and the teenage child serves as interpreter.

Yes this is also true but I am speaking about "tribes" who have lived side by side for over 2000 years!

The same situation applies .. they can buy whatever they need in their chosen language but its not even like they are in different alphabets...

You go to a zoo and the animals are labelled in Dutch and French .... but it amazes me that someone allergic to say bee's wouldn't even know that word in the other language! It has to take a special effort....

For example I have never learned any Spanish at all ... I've been to spain twice (and most of Latin America) but my Spanish vocabulary is probably over 2000 words. I didn't choose this... but they are written on European brand packaging...you can't help reading them unless you really try! I have never picked up A spanish dictionary ... I just read street signs.. shop signs etc.

Ive been to Holland a few times .... and I can read and understand spoken Dutch (more Northern dialects because I understand Danish because I speak Norwegian) but that is about it.. there is no need to speak Dutch in most of Holland because most Dutch people speak near perfect English....

Yet people who have lived there whole lives in "bilingual" (which is a joke) Bruxelles/Stad Brussel is two towns in one. They have different banks, shops and culture and yet they are not 1st or second generation immigrants but families whom have lived in the area for 1000 years and more....

According to a 2006 survey 51% of the city that responded claim to be bilingual ... this research itself fundamentally flawed since the questionairre was available in either language and English but not mixed....but the results are only published in French???? (a seperate Dutch speaking uni translated the findings....isn't that weird a study on bilingualism in an officially bilingual city only published in 1 language)

The same can be true for Finns.

You cannot graduate from university in Finland without passing Swedish...and yet I know few ethnic Finns who will speak Swedish unless they are under extrme duress.

I know Finns who would rather watch a Swedish person be hit by a car than shout out a warning in Swedish! (this is there own words)

Similarly I was at an exhibition in Dutch speaking Antwerp... I don't expect them to speak French to me but I was there at the request of the person who was making the exhibit...

The guy "explained" to me in Dutch i wasn't allowed to take photo's... but refused to speak French at all. Everytime I answered him in French he just told me to speak Dutch... (look at my photo) and completely refused to listen to my explanation in French ... that I was here at the request of the exhibitor.

Now... I could perhaps think this guy didn't speak French apart from I asked the exhibitor... and heard the guy speaking French with his wife and it is his natural language.

Later on I watched as some guy asked him where the toilet was in Dutch... and guess what.. he refused to understand the question.... refused to admit he spoke Dutch altogether!

So my understanding is he only speaks Dutch to tell people what he wants but will not help someone unless they speak French.

It was after this we went back to Bruxelles... and I started watching people....

Its truly amazing that if 50% profess to be bilingual just how much they resent the "others".

You start to see all sorts of people doing mean things... (if you presume 50% actually are bilingual) refusal to serve someone in a shop etc., certainly refusal to help someone with directions...

My girlfriends French is flawless, only a linguistics professor would know its not her native tongue and we soon learned the best way to get cooperation was for me to do all the talking. The French would help me in my accented French but the Dutch would just clam up if she asked in perfect Parisien... wheras I could then switch to English.... if she switched to English they had already judged her as French and be as unhelpful as possible.

Defacement of public signs is common... vandals will blank out half a sign....but people will just be less helpfull.

Also my French is good enough to spot a bilingual speaker immediately even with a belgian accent and nowhere 50% of the Dutch speakers had acceptable French... but well over 50% of them had excellent English.. way way better than their French. I somehow find the questionairre must have been rather biassed.

[Nancym]

Ok, you've hijacked my thread to talk about something totally unrelated. *pout* Let me see if I can put it back closer to the original subject:

Thanks for the heads up Nancy. I will have to research this. Right now I am on the fence, but if it is found to be accurate and help people get dx, without any "false" or missed dx's, I am all for it.

You're holding Dr. Fine up to a much higher standard than the current diagnosis method?

[Guest Doll]

I certainly have more than a few traits.... but I prefer non-NT....I don't really know enough about it to think i am or am not.

The point is who defines NT?

My understanding is this is a spectrum of what some people call "diseases" which are continuous and overlapping.

But its not like celiac disease where you can try and gluten-free diet and find out!

What I am really saying is perhaps man started out as less 'herd mentality' and that the changing environment eventually made the herd mentality more dominant and at the same time made the non-celiacs more dominant.

Its easy to say that before wheat was made and agriculture started that there were no celiacs. Its rather harder to say what people thought.

Anyway the problem with diagnosis is IMHO a bit more complex.

There are a whole set of "tests" which are designed on the whole by NT's and what they consider normal.

However, looking from my side (wherever that is) I don't see NT's as homogenous.

Lets take one trait ... herd mentality and look at that....

From my persepective some NT's are just as far off the spectrum in the other direction as Aspie's...

Some people seem unable to function alone whatsoever. They are scared by the very thought of being alone and always seek out a herd to lose themselves within. They will agree with anything anyone says and if someone then says the opposite agree with that as well. You ask them what they think about X and they start to look around for other's opinions before even answering.

Then there is a whole spectrum of people who are a part of the herd but are independent of limited through mostly independant thought.

The question is how much of this is genetic and how much is aquired?

How much of "normaility" is merely defined by this is what people do?

It seems yo me like NT's have a problem in explaining their disease?

As an example I don't really like crowds but so long as people don't touch me I can cope with crowds quite easily so long as the crowd do not have a common purpose.

However when a crowd has a common purpose I find it increasingly hard to cope. I find a crowd with a common purpose very scary. So far as I'm concerned crowds are dangerous, they are packed with an alien emotion I don't understand or feel.

I don't even need to be a part of that crowd to feel intimidated.... one of the scariest sounds I can think of is 50,000 people cheering at the same time. People will stand in a soccer stadium and cheer, boo or whatever .. I just don't see the point??? Its just 50,000 people cheering about a ball being kicked forwards and backwards... the ball is irrelevent ... they would be just as happy (or probably more so) to watch the two teams fight to the death ... indeed from my perspective what they are doing is just watching a limited war....

When they get out of this war the first thing many of them want to do is beat up anyone who supported the other team.... or indeed in their absense anyone not wearing thier tribal colors.

People actually go out to pubs and bars to watch this battle on a TV and still roar and scream?

Do they not realise that the combatants on the pitch can't hear them... that shouting "referee" has no point to it?

Why don't they watch the match on there own TV at home ... why do they feel a need to get a group around to watch this debacle?

However I have come to realise that these people are in groups because they lack the perspective to realise that they are getting worked up over a bag of air being kicked around ... but they maybe suspect that it has no relevance so they seek out the herd. When they join the herd they seem to share an emotion....

However most low functioning NT's cannot even explain what this emotion is... indeed it is whatever the last person said. They pretend to understand it yet they can't stand up and say "The emporor has no clothes" but the whole sad thing is they spend a great deal of time doing soomething they themselves don't understand other than "it feels good".

Fiddle-faddle.... I'm sat here in a 10 yr old shirt and 10 yr old shoes ... my jeans are probably only 5 yrs old but then I have 20 yr old jeans in my closet.

I never buy anything 'fashionable' EVER.... indeed if something comes back in fashion I just stick it to the back of the wardrobe until its not.

Don't get the idea I don't buy nice clothes... non of my business suits are less than $1500 and non of my workshirts less than $100 but unlike Bill Gates I actually make an effort to look smart I just take care of my clothes ...

Anyway.... this brings us back to

Well then we have a different perspective, sure I don't like crowds but I don't have any fear or problems of public speaking. I am quite happy to stand up in front of 5000 people and give a lecture or presentation. Something Bill Gates is obviously not comfortable with... indeed his public speaking is the oratory equivalent of Dan Browns writing....whenever something goes wrong he panicks and falls to pieces.

Bill Gates has a lot of issues outside of this, he has a complete lack of understanding of reality.

His philanthopic gesture to give a PC to every villiage in Africa rather exemplifies this...when it was pointed out that it wouldn't do much good when most villages don't have electricity let alone a phone line for the internet and they would prefer to have safe drinking water than electricity.

To me this shows a very deep disconnection from reality.

This isn't really true....

After being insulted several times for trying to learn Norwegian I made an active effort not to learn it. However after a year I found out I could just follow it.

I could have tried harder not to learn but all I did was watch TV with subtitles... then one day I suddenly realised i had been following a programme without subtitles for a good 20 mins while working on something else ... it wasn't until they used a word I didn't know that I realised I had followed the conversation exactly.

Having said this I have met many Dutch speaking Belgians who don't speak French. Even in Bruxelles

I have no idea how they can do this.... it is beyond my understanding how they can make such an effort all the time .. whenever they pick up a bottle of shampoo or turn on the TV or see a poster....

To have such a deep tribal hatred is beyond me..... you must have to really hate a culture to not adsorb it when it surrounds you everyday, the effort must be enormous.

I try not to waste my time learning actors or actresses etc. I deliberatly try not to read credits on a film because it is a waste of my brain... but I can't help knowing a few. I can't imagine the sheer force of willpower required for a Dutch speaking Belgian to not learn French or visa vera.

Perhaps my inability not to shut out Norwegian was because I was not a part of a culture with a herd mentality to deeply detest everything Norwegian? Perhaps this is something the herd mentality gives which I can't pick up on?

I have no idea how people live in Bruxelles... I can't imagine how they both live in half a city that is intertwined ... one shop can be French speaking and the shop next door Dutch speaking and without fail the tribes know ....

Even buying a railway ticket is freaky.... the Belgians seemingly without fail know which person speaks their language just by looking at them.... when I tried to buy a ticket I queued up and asked in French and the guy just answered me in Dutch that he didn't speak French.... however when I switched to English he was more than happy to speak near perfect English but he wouldn't even say I don't speak French in French?

so

I have no idea how people live in Bruxelles... but these people do...I can only think it is the group mentaility that keeps them sane. The whole city has a stench of tribalism... even I started to associate with the group who spoke my language as in French even though 90% of the Dutch speakers speak very good English they do so as a foreign language and the "feeling" is very strongly to me "this is a tribal situation, you pick a side you cannot be neutral"

... and this affects even modern day immigrants. They arrrive and are tribalised into Dutch/French ....

My neighbour (in Paris) is 2nd generation Belgian.. he speaks Moroccan (Tamazight), Arabic, English, French all perfectly.(natively).. he also speaks German, Spanish and Italian too well for me to judge how well....

He spent his whole life in Bruxelles until 18... and doesn't speak ANY Dutch at all.

I don't think you are AS gfp based on what you said. Everything you have described just sounds like intelligent personal choice and personality traits. Many people do not "like" crowds, or sporting events, or war/hatred against a nation. You differ in that most do not understand illogical, futile, or unproductive elements of these things, but that is not entirely rare. The one "AS" trait that you would have in this context would be when you said you don't read film credits, assuming you think they are unimportant. You took it from a subjective viewpoint and did not consider other viewpoints. Many people think like this, though. It's a "self" centered world.

I personally love to read the credits more than watching the movie. For me, I am interested in the film industry and like to watch for up and coming directors, graphic designers, etc. Some people may find that odd, but I hate movies and movies to me are a waste of time to watch because they are "fake" and bore me 9/10. I don't think either of our views are common, but they don't have to be labeled as anything. I think may people have traits that are not the "norm", and I agree that society is quick to give people a label. Of course people really do have AS, but I think many are labeled as such for simply thinking outside the box. Instead, we should expect people to be different and accept them for it. I agree on this point.

I also think that extremely logical, intelligent, analytical, etc. people tend to see things differently from an "average" perspective, which only makes sense. This may work for or against them.

I personally love to go to football games with a crowded stadium and friends. I love to watch football games (Or hockey!!!) at home by myself. Since I play and love sports, I find enjoyment out of watching the adrenaline rush and I watch to improve my game. I have never had a hard time making friends, but prefer to spend a lot of time alone. I can be very successful working as part of or leading a team, but do not prefer it and even dislike it. Sometimes I like to go out in a big group and party with my friends at a big nightclub. Other times I won't pick up the phone if my friend is calling me to come out. Do I think I am an "NT", or an "AS"? I have no idea, and I think it's not important. I think that there is a broad range of what is "typical" , and yet ironically, none of us really is.

Like Ursula said, we need to simply accept ourselves and others around us. Of course if you are struggling to cope day to day with others around you, and really think you are AS, some sort of cognitive therapy may help you relate or cope better with the population at large.

I agree what you said about "herd" mentality. There are some on the extreme ends of both sides, people who can't do anything alone, those who are indifferent, those who prefer to, and then AS, those who really naturally need to.

I still think most people have some independent thought, though.

[tarnalberry]

I lol'ed at "no point to small talk". I'm pretty NT, though I know people who - at the very least - border on the spectrum. (The school I went to was the sort that is highly likely to attract those on the spectrum, and is overall, not only tolerant, but relatively acclimated to them.)

But even I agree that there is often no immediate point to small talk. It's inane, it's silly, it has no bearing on any immediate thing. But the payoff is much the same as dropping a penny in a jar every day for five years - it builds up over time to something bigger. It also fills in the gaps. So I appreciate (and engage in it) for it's investment purposes, even on the days I'm feeling antisocial. (When I'm feeling social, it has it's own inate rewards. )

I can understand the sentiments, though. And, sometimes, we're never going to understand how another person thinks. Coming to realize and accept that, however, is a good thing. At least it allows us to drop the assumption that he/she will think the same as we do ourselves.

[Nancym]

Ummm... this is very interesting. But I don't see how it relates to the topic?

Sorry, I'm very interested in the doctor/diabetes thing and a little disappointed the conversation has gotten so far off track.

[tarnalberry]

Ummm... this is very interesting. But I don't see how it relates to the topic?

Sorry, I'm very interested in the doctor/diabetes thing and a little disappointed the conversation has gotten so far off track.

Eh... it happens in conversations, which is what message boards are. There was response to your original topic, and I know that I at least am in the "it's not a what if, it really does happen" camp. Heck, I didn't see much response to what I wrote about the fact that doctors have a logical reason to do what they do. They try to provide the most useful service possible, and that has to take into account what advice a patient will follow. Of course, the research on diet is incomplete, spotty, and riddled with biases and inconsistencies from hidden interests. And that's without mentioning that it's a terribly complicated system that cannot easily be picked apart the way that most other things can be studied.

Actually, it makes it all the more important for us, and other support groups, to be firm and consistent on the fact that the diet is really the only option, and that you have to be very consistent and true to the diet. And that it's also up to us to let our doctors and friends and family know, whenever the opportunity arises that the diet is not a huge burden, and that it is making a big difference, and that it is a livable life change given how much it does for us.

[floridanative]

Ursula - so sad to read about your sick friend and his wife as well. I appreciate you posting that story. I understand your frustration completely. My friend who was dx'd wtih diabetes and never even told me, just takes meds and eats what she wants apparently. If she ever took charge of her health, I'd be there to support her every step of the way. Until then, and I know that situation may never arise, I just can't sit back and watch it anymore. When I brought up food intolerances as she has sinus infections ALL the time, she didn't want to hear it at all. I had to admit she is not ready to deal with what needs to be dealt with and I can't change that. Your friend is much sicker than mine (who's only 40) and I know it is hearthbreaking for you.

Regarding the herd mentality issue - I agree that it's a huge problem in our society. From the time I was very young, I had no desire to be like everyone else. It's just not who I was then or am now. I think this has helped me immensely in getting on with my life after a dx of Celiac. I'm different than many I deal with every day and that suits me just fine. I think people who always have to fit some kind of mold, well they are not my type of person in the first place. I do think that this is why so many shun the idea or stay in denial that they maybe should be tested for Celiac, even though deep down, they know it's a good idea. They don't want to be different and they sure as heck don't want their kids to be different. Makes no sense to me since if the kids have Celiac, ignoring the issue will not make it go away.

[CarlaB]

Articles like this, and knowing they're working on a pill that might help celiacs with contimination issues, but is not intended to replace the gluten-free diet, makes me worry that the pill might be a mixed blessing. If docs have so little faith in our ability to stay on a diet, will the future of celiac be a dependence on this pill in the same way type II diabetic can depend on insulin instead of dietary changes?