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radgirl

Soaps, Shampoo, And Other Personal Care Products

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Guest Doll
This is ridiculous. Look up things before posting completely inaccurate statements. Proteins that have been broken down into individual amino acids are useless as a treatment. Very few (if any) medications that are delivered through the skin contain any protein; they are chemicals. The patches have components (additional chemicals) that allow or facilitate absorption through the skin.

I am not, nor have I ever been a housewife. I am, however, a scientist and have spent the last 20 years or so doing science. My training does not consist of memorizing a book of data that someone else has deemed to be true. Instead I spend my days questioning "facts" and determining for myself if they are likely to be true, or merely an assumption based on a lack of sufficient information.

If others on this thread were to spend less time assuming they are the font of all knowledge and all should bow to their superior intellect, and more time actually paying attention to what's been said, these others might realize that some of these "housewives" are pretty frickin' smart.

Education does not equal intelligence.

I know how transdermal medicine patches work. *I was thinking in my head that gluten must be broken down into amino acids to not cause an immune response*. I admit I didn't say what I meant to say, so thank you for pointing that out. I meant to point out that *gluten* (not chemicals intended to have an effect like drugs) cannot be aborbed whole into the skin, it would have to be broken down into individual amino acids. I admit I didn't say this right at all. Gluten absorption through the skin is what our original topic was about.

Note that *I* never mentioned the term "housewife" on this board, so I am a little confused why you are directing your hostile attack at me.

I don't think people should bow down to anyone, but I also think people need to think for themselves, the *exact* same thing you are trying to say. People shouldn't be so quick to blame gluten for everything. That's all I've ever said, if I come across like a B*&^% then I am really sorry. I am just as passionate as most of us here.

P.S. I was glutened at my bachelorette party on the weekend....and I am one agitated big ol' biatch. :) I've had the big D for 3 days, and I have to drink Coke all day to keep my blood sugar up. I appologize if anyone feels insulted by my recent posts.

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I have read differing opinions on this subject both here and in various books and online research I have done. Having to ingest gluten for a GI response makes sense to me. But non GI symptoms from possible absorption into the bloodstream also makes sense. It might not cause the villi damage, but is it not possible that is could cause other unpleasent "glutening" symptoms?

http://www.doctorgluten.com/cms/index.php?...7&Itemid=25

Thanks for that url post. This is what my GI doctor told me, he states that your skin is your biggest organ, what goes on it, gets absorbed. It can eventually effect you somehow. ( I am celiac, with gluten sensitivty, asmtha, plus...) This why I stay away from gluten ingredients inside and out. I am trying to use mostly safe and pure botanicals on my sikn. I can honestly say, since I do not use gluten on my skin or body anymore, my skin is doing much, much better, it actually looks very good. I even had a fantastic comment about my skin and coloring today. Something is working for me. Even my oncologist said how good I am looking. People who see me now that saw me months ago...they do a complete double take.

I had my youngest at the doctor's yesterday and today..(physicals, and shots) .he told me that their is still so much to learn, medical findings do change over time and what works for some may not work for others. We are all individuals and unique and what makes one tick, does not necessarily make the other tick.

By the way....the dr today also saw something in my little girls bloodwork that makes him suspicious of her being celiac like me. He wants me to take her to a pediatric gi ( for celiac) dr ...any one have any suggestions? I know I will not be making her eat wheat for it... she has grown 2 inches and gained 8 pounds since we went gluten-free in our house. Infact she is the first one of my three children to EVER be in the top of her weight and height chart!! Yipee

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Note that *I* never mentioned the term "housewife" on this board, so I am a little confused why you are directing your hostile attack at me.

I appologize if anyone feels insulted by my recent posts.

True, but you frequently come across as condescending so even though you didn't originate the discussion, some part of my comment still applies to you.

Why do you think your problem is gluten? You don't have Celiac, and you seem to have reactions that no other people with Celiac have (i.e. reacting to topical gluten, which is impossible without an allergy). So maybe you just are hyper sensitive and have allergies?

There was one person here who reacted to Dove shampoo, which is gluten-free. Some people are just sensitive, but it's not gluten that they're reacting to. :)

P.S. There's obviously more people than me on this board who realize this. What makes you think that you know more than the people who write for a national Celiac magazine? Do you even have a university degree???? Why are you so sure that you're right?

In my opinion, if anyone assumes that we are the same person because we both happen to base our opinion on proven published medical research, then frankly I am worried about them. Please note that I am NOT attacking their mental status, but I'd honestly be concerned. That is quite an odd idea to think that someone would actually do that.

If you want to get technical, I think the other person in question should apologize for trying to discredit the readers of Living Without, which is supposed to be a very helpful magazine for Celiacs (I have never read it but I know many enjoy it).

It really doesn't matter which diseases Celiac has been linked to, etc., or anything else. The bottom line is that gluten is not absorbed through the skin, period. I know that there are changes in the *mucous membrane of THE INTESTINES* of people with Celiac, but I have never seen published data that says that gluten is absorbed through mucous membranes such as the vagina. Gluten must be absorbed via the digestive tract to cause a reaction in Celiacs. Of course I would accept *scientific* (i.e. Pub Med) abstracts saying otherwise, but I have personally never seen them. We actually DO know quite a bit about Celiac. It is considered to be one of the most well understood autoimmune diseases.

I should not be restricted on my opinion, which is based on *proven* information. If misinformation is given on this board, it does nothing to help those with Celiac Disease.

Just my opinion. :)

And just as a point of curiosity, do you know of any studies where they have actually tested and shown that gluten is not absorbed through the skin?

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True, but you frequently come across as condescending so even though you didn't originate the discussion, some part of my comment still applies to you.

And just as a point of curiosity, do you know of any studies where they have actually tested and shown that gluten is not absorbed through the skin?

even if it is absorpbed through the skin, it does NOT go to the digestive tract.sorry, really, it doesn't. I don't understand why everyone is going nutso over this one, your body, you decide. Don't jump on others who have just as many reasons as you do for doing what they do.

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It doesn't have to go to your gut, all it has to do is start an immune response, which is systemic.

in order to start the immune response it must be ingested for plain celiac disease, i respectuflly say you are incorrect at this point. it is a reaction in the digestive tract. i invite you to prove me wrong with a book suggestion, but that is what i have been told by celiac experts, and that is what i've read everywhere. It is fine to personally decide to not use a certain shampoo or personal product, but we should really not confuse the heck out of newbies.

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Guest Doll

I will try to look for some published data for you, the best I can do for now is post what Richard, www.celiac.com Moderator, has said on the topic. He has explained that all experts on Celiac agree that the gluten molecule (like many others) is simply too large to be absorbed topically. This is what I have also read. Here is the link...perhaps he can jump in and list any sources that he knows off of the top of his head. Here is the link for anyone interested....

http://www.glutenfreeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2395

I don't think anyone is disputing that topical gluten can cause a systemic IgE (allergy) response in those with an allergy or sensitivity to it, but that is not the same thing as a Celiac Disease reaction.

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It doesn't have to go to your gut, all it has to do is start an immune response, which is systemic.

That is my entire point about the danger of nonfood contact. And as it is an immune response even a microgram will cause the immune system to react.

If the skin was an organ that without fail could protect us from the microorganisms and blood born diseases and pathogens, in other words a sealed system there could be no transdermal absorption of anything. Many don't realize when you are in the hospital or doctors office and they put on gloves that it is just as much to protect them as you. This is because even a very small break in the skin can allow nasty stuff in. Someone who gets even the tiniest pinprick from someone with HIV is required to go through repeated testing. This is because even the smallest amount of infected fluid can cause infection and although it takes times antibodies will form and be detectable in the blood, not just the finger that was stuck.

With celiac causing an immune system reaction that can attack any area of the body I will choose to side on the side of caution. Celiac is not just a GI disease, it is a whole system disease and for some the GI part can even be asymptomatic. I choose to protect what is left of my immune system and brain and joints, what others choose is up to them.

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I will try to look for some published data for you, the best I can do for now is post what Richard, www.celiac.com Moderator, has said on the topic. He has explained that all experts on Celiac agree that the gluten molecule (like many others) is simply too large to be absorbed topically. This is what I have also read. Here is the link...perhaps he can jump in and list any sources that he knows off of the top of his head. Here is the link for anyone interested....

http://www.glutenfreeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2395

i've always been told exactly what you say, i'm open to new opinions though, only if they're based in fact not just confusion. otherwise if no one can really produce any to the contrary that you just said i guess i'll go on thinking i'm right for now.

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I have been discussing this with my daughter the biochemist. She has been discussing it with her teachers and other scientists that she works with. Those of us with the antibodies can get glutened from absorption not just from the gut. I don't know what kind of reaction you would get if you usually have DH but what happens to me is pain in my muscles and joints. They suggest that the gluten would probably have to be wet to absorb well. Think about all the patches for medication out there they have some kind of catalist that activates them. However, there are chemicals that are absorbed by direct contact with the skin that are not wet. So until further research is done I will err on the safe side and not use products with gluten in them. Sarah did say that if for instance I came into direct contact with a wheat flour cookie and washed my hands right away that I would probably be ok. That is what I have been doing and using disposable gloves for direct contact for a long period of time.

Yellow Rose

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Guest Doll

Does anyone here know about the chemical makeup or structure of gluten? I have to admit I have no idea. I think the above post is very interesting. What confuses me is that water is polar, and "attaches" to many things due to hydrogen bonding. So on a molecular level, would water adhere and cause a gluten protein molecule to take up *more* space and/or swell? If this is the case, would it not have an even *lesser* chance of being absorbed if it was too big to pass transdermally in the first place?

I know water can also act as a solvent and break things apart. Would hydration shells form with the components of gluten?

If anyone could help explain this better for me, I would really appreciate it! Sorry if I'm not explaining this right, but I really am not sure. I am going to look up the chemical structure and properties of gluten on my own, I guess.

Thanks if anyone knows!

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This may sound ignorant, but what is the purpose of watching for gluten in our personal care products like shampoo, conditioner, soap, etc....? It is because we may ingest the gluten proteins? Can someone please explain this to me.

I was using Bed Head shampoo for years, I had stopped because I got married and had a baby could not afford the stuff any more. I had kept some conditioner and I had used it a couple months ago Not once looking at the ingreadents in it, I finally looked one day and it had something wheat by that time it was too late I had already had horrible zits or zit like looking things which could be DH don't know. My co worker noticed and asked what in earth happened to my hair line and I said I used the conditioner Bed head and this is what happenes. she asked me if I trashed it I said yes I finally did. I kept it for so long because it is $22usd and I did not want to waste the stuff. I will never buy that stuff again. Hope that this helps with you answer.

donna

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I want to add here: I did not EVER say that I felt gluten was absorbed through our skin, yet I am not convinced it can't. What I said was: It can get in our eyes and mouth in the shower, I did say, I too, never have eaten my shampoo. I also said that if you use conditioner on your hair and later run your hands through your hair, then remnants of that conditioner may be on your hands--to which one of you naysayers stated something to the effect that maybe some of us do not wash our hands often enough, which I might add, does seem just a tad rude and uncalled for. I did add that I wash my hands often and that is because I worry more about what people bring to me in the doctor's office. HOWEVER, I NEVER STATED GLUTEN IS ABSORBED THROUGH THE SKIN, I SAID IT CAUSES REACTIONS "ON" MY SKIN.

I just wanted to put out there that with plain celiac and no wheat or oat allergy on top of it, it is technically nothing to worry about unless it is directly digested, so everyone can make their own decision from there.

"Plain celiac" as opposed to what other type of celiac? Cookie, what we are talking about is "directly digested" products by accident in the form of lotions, shampoo, soaps, etc. Anyone washing their hair in the shower and rinsing it in the shower does get water on their mouth and eyes, there is absolutely no way you can not and that is what we are talking about. Anyone putting lotion on their body, which contains wheat, can conceivably get glutened by that lotion accidentally. Try not to be so defensive!

Don't jump on others who have just as many reasons as you do for doing what they do.
You said it babe, follow your own advice--please!

Thank you Jestgar--where have you been?

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I want to add here: I did not EVER say that I felt gluten was absorbed through our skin, yet I am not convinced it can't. What I said was: It can get in our eyes and mouth in the shower, I did say, I too, never have eaten my shampoo. I also said that if you use conditioner on your hair and later run your hands through your hair, then remnants of that conditioner may be on your hands--

Very important thing to keep in mind, especially for those of us with long hair. Mine is always getting in my mouth (no, not handfuls, just the occasional strand).

But I was thinking about this gluten absorption thing last night and I realized there are a few key points that need to be added:

One of the protections that our skin has is an oily, waxy layer over the cells. Shampoos and soaps are designed to break down oils and waxes and would thereby leave a person's skin more vulnerable. Lotions are frequently applied after washing so you have the same issues.

Gluten would not need to completely absorbed, all it has to do is come in contact with antibodies which can be very close to the skin in vessels or the lymphatic system. Once you turn on the immune system you initiate a cascade so the response is greater than the trigger.

Gluten has an obvious effect on the skin (DH), but there is some question about the role it has in other skin issues like psoriasis and chronically dry skin. If your skin is not completely intact (even though it looks fine) because you carry the complement of genes that predispose you to auto immune disorders SOME OF WHICH may be mild skin irritations, then you already have leaky skin, which would mean that for some people, gluten does enter their body topically.

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Very important thing to keep in mind, especially for those of us with long hair. Mine is always getting in my mouth (no, not handfuls, just the occasional strand).

But I was thinking about this gluten absorption thing last night and I realized there are a few key points that need to be added:

One of the protections that our skin has is an oily, waxy layer over the cells. Shampoos and soaps are designed to break down oils and waxes and would thereby leave a person's skin more vulnerable. Lotions are frequently applied after washing so you have the same issues.

Gluten would not need to completely absorbed, all it has to do is come in contact with antibodies which can be very close to the skin in vessels or the lymphatic system. Once you turn on the immune system you initiate a cascade so the response is greater than the trigger.

Gluten has an obvious effect on the skin (DH), but there is some question about the role it has in other skin issues like psoriasis and chronically dry skin. If your skin is not completely intact (even though it looks fine) because you carry the complement of genes that predispose you to auto immune disorders SOME OF WHICH may be mild skin irritations, then you already have leaky skin, which would mean that for some people, gluten does enter their body topically.

i really beg you guys to get a book on celiac before you keep posting this stuff. it's really not correct. now you'll probably jump on me like you did those other two posters. you sure don't like people to be on any other side but the lets all act like celiac does things it doesn't and act like celiac is the worst thing in the world. it's not folks. i'll leave this alone now, but really, read a book on celiac, if you find proof of what you're saying, i'm more than open to it, i'm just saying, i've never ever seen it. thanks.

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i really beg you guys to get a book on celiac before you keep posting this stuff. it's really not correct. now you'll probably jump on me like you did those other two posters. you sure don't like people to be on any other side but the lets all act like celiac does things it doesn't and act like celiac is the worst thing in the world. it's not folks. i'll leave this alone now, but really, read a book on celiac, if you find proof of what you're saying, i'm more than open to it, i'm just saying, i've never ever seen it. thanks.

I am going to sit back and try not to take offense...reading that when I was a poster on this category, made me feel it could be directed to me... but really "get a book?" wow, it's a chat board. Perhaps maybe start a new post about a specific book someone wants to discuss.

I have read celiac for dummies, and I am presently reading celiac disease - a hidden epidemic, foods that fight pain, and alternative medicine.

I also went to college, had a job until I fell ill....(my own business)

When I went for my biopsy on my tumor that was removed...the dr put a bandaid on the mark where the needle was

inserted... MY skin literally melted, I still have the scar from it. It was the gluten in the sticky stuff on the bandaid that melted my skin. Since my surgery from removing the tumor....the surgeon stitched me up and the bandaid scar is now in two places, one on the left side of the scar and the other on the right....and to mention they don't match up, one side is higher than the other.

I will post a piece of an article, and then post the entire piece as sometime taken out of text doesn't make sence.

The article is mainly about pore sizes, and reducing them, plus more....it is rather a long article....

What I googled was skin absorbency with gluten cosmetics

"""""Skin pores (and sebaceous glands) are large and numerous on the face and scalp, coincidentally the areas of maximum exposure on the skin. For facial areas the density ranges from 400 to 800 pores/cm2, compared with 50 pores/cm2 on the arms and legs. The forehead, nose and nasolabial folds are the areas of highest pore concentration.

Skin pores also represent entry portals for externally applied substances, including lotions, creams and cosmetic preparations. It is generally understood that human skin represents a changing, dynamic environment where the exit and entry of substances can significantly influence pore size and visibility."""""

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5415861-description.html

I have celiac disease, I have celiac sensitivity, and I have allergic reaction to gluten - even with my breathing, it brings on asmtha as well.

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i really beg you guys to get a book on celiac before you keep posting this stuff. it's really not correct. now you'll probably jump on me like you did those other two posters. you sure don't like people to be on any other side but the lets all act like celiac does things it doesn't and act like celiac is the worst thing in the world. it's not folks. i'll leave this alone now, but really, read a book on celiac, if you find proof of what you're saying, i'm more than open to it, i'm just saying, i've never ever seen it. thanks.

And I would respectfully suggest that you do a bit more study on the immune system and antibody formation and reactions.

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i really beg you guys to get a book on celiac before you keep posting this stuff. it's really not correct. now you'll probably jump on me like you did those other two posters. you sure don't like people to be on any other side but the lets all act like celiac does things it doesn't and act like celiac is the worst thing in the world. it's not folks. i'll leave this alone now, but really, read a book on celiac, if you find proof of what you're saying, i'm more than open to it, i'm just saying, i've never ever seen it. thanks.

I study immunity for a living. I've read many, many books and articles and attended conferences and of course conducted my own research.

I spent a lot of years at university and continually attended seminars and online webinars and courses to keep my knowledge current.

What book would you suggest I read?

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Although it seems everyone is trying to not be offensive, there still appears to be an underlying current that I don't like on this thread.

Let's suffice it to say that some people react to gluten whether it's ingested or not and not belittle their experience. It is a personal choice whether someone uses gluten free personal care products or not. Why is this even being debated?

This thread is being monitored, as I'm sure many of you are aware of.

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I have to disagree that gluten has an "obvious" effect on the skin, especially if you're tlaking about mere contact with the skin. The vast majority of people with celiac do not have and have never had DH. I had DH for more than 20 years but contact with gluten does not cause me to break out.

richard

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I have to disagree that gluten has an "obvious" effect on the skin, especially if you're tlaking about mere contact with the skin. The vast majority of people with celiac do not have and have never had DH. I had DH for more than 20 years but contact with gluten does not cause me to break out.

richard

i agree with you but it appears once again the loudest voice wins.

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This thread is getting awful uncomfortable. Everyone has there own opinions, and everyone should know there body's well enough to know what hurts them. Has anyone also thought of STRESS!!!! Stress kills Lets all just try to get along PLEASE goes back to what my mother had always taught me IF YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING NICE TO SAY DONT SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!!!

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