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stef_the_kicking_cuty

Gluten Is Developed In The Dough?

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Hi there,

I haven't been on here in a while. I just had a discussion with somebody, that wants to tell me, that gluten is "developed" in the dough when the proteins in the dough absorb water and are pulled and stretched in the kneading process. The woman said, she found it on Wikipedia and said, she was a chemistry / biology major and said, the gluten needed to develop somehow. I told her that wasn't true and that each wheat grain out on the field already had gluten as an enzyme in it and could (technically spoken) kill me, if I eat it. It does not need to be developed or activated or whatever. She did not believe me and showed me this:

This was her first own response: "Well, I know that kneading the dough increases the gluten or breaks it down or something- makes it more avalible. Like when you boil pasta longer you increase the amount of gluten ava to your body."

This was my response: "Gluten can't be increased or decreased by kneading. It doesn't break down either. Gluten is an enzyme in wheat, rye, oats, barley and it also can not be separated, like I already heard somewhere else or killed by cooking... what a joke. Believe me, if it would be possible, you would be on to something new and could earn a million bucks with that, cause there are millions of people on this planet suffering from some kind of wheat allergy, gluten intolerance or celiac, that are just waiting for news like that..."

Then she answered this: "Maybe this explains it better than I do... substances exist all around, but some aren't useable or functional until we act on them to make them avaliable. Like you can have tons of iron in your body but if you have no vit C- what does it matter."

And this she found on the internet (it's from Wikipedia) that she showed me:

"What is Gluten and Why does it Matter?

Gluten is a substance made up of the proteins found in wheat flour that gives bread its structure, strength, and texture. Without these marvelous little proteins, bread would not be bread. It also explains why it is so hard to make bread from rice, potato, or oat flour and why wheat flour has to be added to rye flour to make bread


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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it's just that the term is being overused, for different things. gluten, when referring to the protein that causes the autoimmune reaction in celiacs, is one thing. gluten, when referring to the binding matrix in a kneaded dough, is another (the later is generally chemically dependent on the former to form). gluten, as a general term for the primary grain protein, is yet a third way of using it.


Tiffany aka "Have I Mentioned Chocolate Lately?"

Inconclusive Blood Tests, Positive Dietary Results, No Endoscopy

G.F. - September 2003; C.F. - July 2004

Hiker, Yoga Teacher, Engineer, Painter, Be-er of Me

Bellevue, WA

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So, how can I explain this to that good woman, without offending anyone??? Because she actually became one of my friends over these last few days...


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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The amount of gluten doesn't change but kneading changes the structure of it. Does that make sense? You stretch out the strands and make the bread chewy. Different flours have different amounts of gluten. Bread flour has a higher gluten content than pastry flour because you want chewy bread but not chewy piecrust. She's sort of right, I suppose. But the gluten is there and dangerous to us undeveloped or not. A spoonful of flour right out of the bag would hurt us just as much as a piece of pizza.

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Yes, that kinda does make sense. I know, that it changes the structure, I was just lacking the words. But like she said, that it develops, that isn't really true in that way either, it just changes it (the structure)... Thanks for helping out...lol.


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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Hi, Stef, good to hear from you again.

You can post a link, as long as it is not to your own web site. Promoting your own site is not permitted, even if it is not a for-profit enterprise, but a link to another site is okay. There are lots of links to wikipedia.

Everyone should keep in mind that wikipedia is a good source of information, but it is not guaranteed. Incorrect information is usually corrected quickly, but anyone can post wrong information and have it stay there for a while.


Peter

Diagnosis by biopsy of practically non-existent villi; gluten-free since July 2000. I was retested five years later and the biopsy was normal. You can beat this disease!

Type 1 (autoimmune) diabetes diagnosed in March 1986

Markham, Ontario (borders on Toronto)

Celiac.com - Celiac Disease Board Moderator since 2007

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Hey, I thought of a way to explain it! Think of bubble gum. If you want to blow a bubble you can't do it with that hard square chunk. You've got to change the structure of the gum by chewing. Nothing in the ingredients have changed but it is different.

I hope she'll listen to you. Maybe someone could amend the wikipedia entry?

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No, not really... lol. She called me the almighty god of gluten facts and an arrogant banter. Whatever... maybe she wasn't THAT good of a friend :lol: . Maybe she thought, I want to attack her almighty chemistry / biology major, hehe... It was worth a try, but some people can't get over themselves :rolleyes: I'm not reacting as agressive anymore as I used to in the passed. The older guys on here know, what I'm talking about... lol. I just brush it off now like "Whatever, it was worth a try, if they don't want to. You can only lead a horse to the water, it must drink on it's own, right???"

Anyways, how have you guys been doing? My baby is about ready to pop. I already had some contractions yesterday :rolleyes:


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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the wikipedia entry isn't wrong----just the gal's interpretation of it. kneading bread dough DOES develop the gluten, but it doesn't CREATE the gluten. you knead bread dough so that the gluten develops into a nice stretchy structure to hold the bread together and help it rise nicely. bread that doesn't get kneaded enough won't rise as well. you have to knead the dough until little bubbles form in it.

xanthan gum works the same way, kind of. have you ever mixed up a recipe and forgotten to add the xanthan gum at first-----then after adding it, the runny batter will thicken up a bit? we are "developing" the xanthan gum.


Christine

15 year old twins with celiac, diagnosed dec. 2005

11 year old daughter with celiac diagnosed dec 2005

17 year old son with celiac gene

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Hi, Stef, good to hear from you again.

You can post a link, as long as it is not to your own web site. Promoting your own site is not permitted, even if it is not a for-profit enterprise, but a link to another site is okay. There are lots of links to wikipedia.

Everyone should keep in mind that wikipedia is a good source of information, but it is not guaranteed. Incorrect information is usually corrected quickly, but anyone can post wrong information and have it stay there for a while.

That's a good idea. However it is pretty long, I didn't post everything on here, just the part, that she was using... Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten

Oh, and I told her the same thing, that Wikipedia isn't always right and after this she called me the "Almighty god of gluten", hehe, I feel honored by such words... just kidding <_<


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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the wikipedia entry isn't wrong----just the gal's interpretation of it.

That's funny, that's what I kinda told her, too. But now all of a sudden I'm a 'know-it-all-better' apparently. As I said, who cares...

Anything new on here? I was so busy lately, I haven't been able to come here for quite a while. Throughout my entire pregnancy as it seems...


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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kassie wants to know why that gal was looking on wikipedia if she is a chemisty/biology major??!!!


Christine

15 year old twins with celiac, diagnosed dec. 2005

11 year old daughter with celiac diagnosed dec 2005

17 year old son with celiac gene

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That is a very good question... I wish you could ask her yourself, but I think, it's still forbidden to post other message boards on here. I did this mistake once a loooong time ago, I'm not going to make this mistake again... lol :lol: !


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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The way I know about it is that gluten exists in the grain's natural state - even in unharvested wheat as gluten is a protein molecule. This is the protein molecule that sets off the immune system reaction in those with celiac.

The gluten becomes elastic when made into baked goods throught he kneading process - that's why wheat bread(Non gluten-free) must be kneaded then raised; and again then kneaded a second time and final rising. the gluten is manipulated into a elastic binding substance; then it gets baked.

Gluten is the protein molecule in the grain and even rice has gluten (but not the type celiacs must worry about). As you can tell, the gluten in rice and corn does have the same properties as wheat gluten does - elasticity - that's why rice and corn breads in the absence of wheat, crumble apart and we must then include in these breads guar gum or xanthan gum to take the place of the elasticity of the wheat gluten.

Tell her she needs continuing education in her field or a do-over on her degree. Those with real education listen more than they talk and are willing to admit not knowing everything.


Husband has Celiac Disease and

Husband misdiagnosed for 27 yrs -

The misdiagnosis was: IBS or colitis

Mis-diagnosed from 1977 to 2003 by various gastros including one of the largest,

most prestigious medical groups in northern NJ which constantly advertises themselves as

being the "best." This GI told him it was "all in his head."

Serious Depressive state ensued

Finally Diagnosed with celiac disease in 2003

Other food sensitivities: almost all fruits, vegetables, spices, eggs, nuts, yeast, fried foods, roughage, soy.

Needs to gain back at least 25 lbs. of the 40 lbs pounds he lost - lost a great amout of body fat and muscle

Developed neuropathy in 2005

Now has lymphadema 2006It is my opinion that his subsequent disorders could have been avoided had he been diagnosed sooner by any of the dozen or so doctors he saw between 1977 to 2003

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Hi Stef,

Gluten issues aside :D , I want to wish you much luck with the baby! Sounds like it won't be too much longer.

I'm so happy and excited for you :)


Patti

"Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans"

"When people show you who they are, believe them"--Maya Angelou

"Bloom where you are planted"--Bev

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Unless that woman answers me again, I'm not going to talk to her any longer. I don't need any additional worries right now. But thanks you all so much for your much needed advice. I appreciate very much. But you're right, she should have an over-do on her degree... lol.

So, thanks for your encouraging words with the baby. Yes, it sounds like it's really not much longer. I already had a couple of times where I thought "So this must be it", but after I drank some water and lied down everything went back to normal, so it must have been false alarm :o . I know the first time I got those twinges in my lower belly I was so excited and ran around like a crazy chicken. I'm like "I'm going to meet my baby... I'm going to meet my baby!" but then... nothing <_< . This happened a couple of times now and it's starting to get boring. I bet when it really happens, I'm going to be so relaxed and so whatever, I will be in and out of l&d in a heartbeat :rolleyes: ... lol. My doc said the same thing. He's like "Hm, you're probably like 'in... out.... bye'!" :lol:


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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I've never had a baby, but someone once offered me the following advice:

Wait as long as you can before going to the hospital, and eat before you go because they don't let you eat when you're there.


"But then, in all honesty, if scientists don't play god, who will?"

- James Watson

My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating.

- Ashleigh Brilliant

Leap, and the net will appear.

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Yes, I heard the same thing from our Bradley teacher. She said, do this trick: Imagine, you want to take a picture before you leave from hospital. When you're still able to get the picture taken and smile in it, then it's still too soon. When you can't smile in it anymore, because you have to concentrate on your contractions, that's when you should go in. And we already packed glutenfree crackers for me. We have to take my own food with me anyways, because the hospital does not provide glutenfree food. <_<


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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I've never had a baby, but someone once offered me the following advice:

Wait as long as you can before going to the hospital, and eat before you go because they don't let you eat when you're there.

Eating and being in labor at the same time, not such an easy task. Then they try to give you an enema so the only thing you deliver is a baby. :o

Good luck Stef. Keep us updated.


Lisa

Gluten Free - August 15, 2004

"Not all who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

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Then they try to give you an enema so the only thing you deliver is a baby. :o

Haha :lol: , very nicely said. They also don't want you to eat to much, because a lot of woman throw up with a full stomache, when they are in labor. And in case of an emergency, when they would have to do a c-section quick and you lie on your back, you could choke on your own vomit. So that's the reason, they don't give you anything actually. But I'm not planning on having a huge meal or anything like that. Just a little bite of a cereal bar, when I need it here and then... lol. We are planning on hiding them in my hospital bag, so nobody sees them. And when the nurse comes in by chance, my hubby will say, he just was planning on eating that one. Oh, in the hospital, where I'm delivering, the only thing I have to have done is the IV. If I don't want an enema, they won't give it to me. Same with EFM, I can have the wireless one to move around, the telemetry thingy, if I want to. They are all quite relaxed about this and I'm looking forward to having my baby there. :rolleyes:


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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So, how can I explain this to that good woman, without offending anyone??? Because she actually became one of my friends over these last few days...

I know there's a chance I should've read rest of thread before responding, but surfing on a ph is pretty slow at times, so I'll risk redundancy for expediency.

Wiki!! UGH!!

I've seen far too many ridiculous alleged "facts" there.

And if I were to bother editing/correcting, I'd just expect another of the misinformed millions to edit ME!!

Recently saw an entry for "gliadin", claiming it's in wheat AND RYE AND BARLEY!!!

Of course that particular nemesis of ours is wheat gluten's harmful protein fraction only. The analogous fractions in rye and barley are secalinin and hordein.

Anyway, I'm drifting again hehe, my point would be, if it's not too late, to find some pages where *actual experts* have written about the topic.

Maybe some Food Science assoc sites, or a .edu at a well-known university.

P.S. Saw reference to "developing the gluten". Seems like mostly a matter of semantics.

I think gluten doesn't get "developed" at all. DOUGH gets developed, and it's the properties of gluten that enable the process.

P.P.S. Has anyone seen the wiki entry that says Van Gogh had celiac? Hehehehehhe hey who knows?? :):)


>>>>>>> tom <<<<<<<

Celiac 1st diagnosed as a toddler, in the 60s. Docs then, between bloodletting & leech-tending, said "he'll grow out of it" & I was back on gluten & mostly fine for 30yrs.

Gluten-free since 12-03

Dairy-free since 10-04

Soy-free since 5-07

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Recently saw an entry for "gliadin", claiming it's in wheat AND RYE AND BARLEY!!!
Really? What misinformation is out there. It's incredible!!!

P.P.S. Has anyone seen the wiki entry that says Van Gogh had celiac? Hehehehehhe hey who knows?? :):)
That's too funny... lol :lol: Do you still have the link on that one?

It might not hurt, writing some professional pages about that gluten issue down or at least to save them in your favorites. This way, you can just post them one by one, if someone thinks, they are super-clever again :rolleyes: . Do you know any good pages by chance? Linking to celiac.com might be a good idea, cause it's pretty good explained on here actually!?!


Stef

Next goals:

Results for 2011:

1x PA State Champ (I defended my title in pointfighting) and also again Grand Champion in pointfighting

August 20-27: Karate and Kickboxing World Championships in Germany (my homecountry)

gluten-free since 07/21/2004

Shermans Dale, PA

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When you knead dough the strands of gluten bind together and form a matrix that captures gases from the yeast thus causing the loaf to rise. If I were you, I'd probably skip it and go do something else with your friend. They might be too much of an expert to be open-minded about taking in new information from a lay-person. :P

Developing the gluten in this context means mixing the flour and water together. It's explained in the wikipedia entry.

The development of gluten in baked goods affects the texture of the resulting product. More gluten development leads to chewier baked goods such as pizza dough and bagels, while less gluten development is desirable in more tender baked goods such as pie. There are several factors that affect the development of gluten in baked goods:

* The amount of gluten-forming proteins in the wheat flour used (for instance, bread flour is high in these substances, while cake flour is low in them).

* The amount of fat (shortening) in the product inhibits the formation of long gluten strands, so more shortening yields a more tender product.

* Mixing is necessary to develop the gluten strands, so more mixing creates a chewier product.

* Liquid is necessary to the development of the gluten, and more liquid generally is used in products where a chewier texture is desired. (see http://www.bakersassist.nl/processing5-2.htm).

So in a pie you use "shortening" and you don't knead the dough. The shortening actually shortens the strands of gluten and keeps them from becoming chewy and forming those matrices. But even though you don't "develop the gluten" in a pie crust and do in a loaf of bread, the amount of gluten per cup of flour remains the same. :P

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no wonder when I used to make pie dough at home (wheat type) my mom always said not to play with the dough after it was made as it would make it "tough." I guess there's no chance of that with gluten-free pie dough.


Husband has Celiac Disease and

Husband misdiagnosed for 27 yrs -

The misdiagnosis was: IBS or colitis

Mis-diagnosed from 1977 to 2003 by various gastros including one of the largest,

most prestigious medical groups in northern NJ which constantly advertises themselves as

being the "best." This GI told him it was "all in his head."

Serious Depressive state ensued

Finally Diagnosed with celiac disease in 2003

Other food sensitivities: almost all fruits, vegetables, spices, eggs, nuts, yeast, fried foods, roughage, soy.

Needs to gain back at least 25 lbs. of the 40 lbs pounds he lost - lost a great amout of body fat and muscle

Developed neuropathy in 2005

Now has lymphadema 2006It is my opinion that his subsequent disorders could have been avoided had he been diagnosed sooner by any of the dozen or so doctors he saw between 1977 to 2003

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.......and speaking of pie crust------the last time i made a gluten free crust it was better than the wheat crust i had at a church dinner. i used bette hagman's vinegar crust.

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