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Vykt0r

Is It Really A Disease?

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Actually, no, I don't.

My endocrinologist told me that she is now routinely testing diabetic patients for celiac via bloodwork. Those who test positive and go off gluten are able to normalize their blood sugar by being off gluten. Not off carbs, but off gluten.

It appears that at last SOME people presenting with classic diabetic symptoms actually have a problem with gluten. Off gluten, they are perfectly healthy.

See what I mean, everybody? What happens when a person smokes heavily for 30 years? They too are pretty sick, right? A whole series of illnesses stem from smoking, which means that, from a general point of view, the smoke itself is a poison(because it contains poisons). So we're all smoke-intolerant. Does that mean we're diseased? Does that mean that had this person never touched a cigarette, he or she either way would be diseased? No.

EDIT: I apologize for my partial incoherence. I haven't been feeling well so I have a kind of brain fog at the moment.

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So what's abnormal about us? The fact that we can't consume something than humans don't necessarily have to consume and only started doing so by chance? What's the norm, really? I'm not Japanese. If I go to Japan, am I diseased because I can't genetically have their facial features? Over there, that's the norm.

Just because a certain substance hurts us doesn't mean we're diseased or functioning abnormally. We only get sick when we're exposed to what is really a poison to us. What's so abnormal about that?

If you are saying that because we launch an immune response against a foreign protein - then our immune system is doing what it is supposed to do. Technically you are correct. The abnormality lies in the autoimmune process that damages self. The immune system is meant to target foreign invaders (be it gluten, bacteria or whatever) - that is a normal funtion.

It is classified as abnormal when the body's immume system destroys itself during the process. The regulatory mechanism fails.

Autoimmune diseases are a normal function "gone bad" so to speak. The immune system harms the very organism it was meant to protect. It IS an abnormal function when the immune system attacks the body. It is not abnormal if the immune system were just reacting to a harmful substance and to it alone........it becomes abnormal whne it harms the body that it is supposed to protect.

sandy

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See what I mean, everybody? What happens when a person smokes heavily for 30 years? They too are pretty sick, right? A whole series of illnesses stem from smoking, which means that, from a general point of view, the smoke itself is a poison(because it contains poisons). So we're all smoke-intolerant. Does that mean we're diseased? Does that mean that had this person never touched a cigarette, he or she either way would be diseased? No.

EDIT: I apologize for my partial incoherence. I haven't been feeling well so I have a kind of brain fog at the moment.

I do see what you mean, and I didn't think you were incoherent!

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Vykor, so what is your story have you been diagnosed with Celiac DISEASE, are you on THE DIET. I think and this is just my opion here no one elses. But are you diagnosed, are you just really questioning the fact that Celiac is a fad or a disease with real medical problems, With Doll it is, she has a lot of health problems because of "This Disease" I think when it affects someone so profound it is a disease. Yes it is known on here that I have not been diagnosed with Celiac because I was eating gluten free before I was tested that does not mean that I don't have Celiac because it may or may not be hidden in my intestines somewhere. You may think then why on earth am I spending so much time and money eating Gluten free. I for one don't want to make The "disease" to come around and disease my body with cancers, or anything else. I think that Alcholism is a disease which is something that I can controll from staying away from Alchol it runs in my family, I do not react pretty to alchol so there for I have to stay away from alchol, in my younger partying days I had to learn the hard way, I would fight with people when I was drinking they thought I needed to quite for the night I thought otherwise with black outs, not knowing how I was going to be. I am learning now that I have to stay away from foods containing Gluten so I can stay fully aware of my surrounding, fully aware of my concesqueses for eating gluten, I react differantly than Doll to gluten. I do not get sick like Doll does, but getting a little D all day long until I can't poo anything else and feeling sick to my stomach, feeling foggy among others. So yeah I think that Celiac is a disease it affects some of us like Doll, Pedro, lonewolf, these people are affected to the extreme, others like me not so bad.

If you go to Japan you are just differant that is all it make you. So if you go to Mexico and drink the water you get sick from it right then it also just make you differant looking. I think that you need to do a little more research and stop telling people on here that they don't have a disease. It sounds like you are telling people on here that it is just in there heads not diseased, it is not that simple for some people here to not consume foods that my be toxic for them. They have heard enough of that from Doctors and family memebers who don't understand, and sounds like you are one.

donna

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it's clearly apparent that you do not have the Celiac disease. that you are fullly jealous you cannot experience the brilliant absorption of a cure and be regarded as abnormal. you just need some attention here cuz we get so much with all the normal people saying--"oh i'm so glad you are getting better. we all have been pulling for you"--so you spin some more circles honey

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I did not get the impression that VyktOr was or did say we dont get sick from gluten. My interpretation is that he is questioning the classifcation of celiac as a disease . He said that gluten is poison to us. Maybe we are just a variant of normal.

The discussion (I think) has been about the semantics of naming something a disease / defining a disease when from another perspective - it could be seen as a reasonable response to a poison even though it causes harm to the body..

My own opinion is that it is a disease- as are all autoimmune DISEASES because the host body is damaged in an "over the top response" by the immune system. The incredible systemic reaction to gluten is related to damaged gut - damaged by the immune system.

In diabetes -it isnt sugar that is causing the issue - it is lack of insulin (thinking Type 1) because the immune system killed the islet cells in an abnormal response to an antigen. In Type 2 the insulin doesnt work effectively. Excess sugar does indeed cause issues for diabetics - sugar isnt bad - insulin that isnt produced or doesnt work effectively is bad.

Would it change anything is we called it a syndrome rather than a disease? A rose is a rose by any other name...or in the case I would call it stinkweed! ;)

Sandy

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Obviously, neither Donna nor Scotty bothered to read ViktOr's first post, nor did they check his profile.

He does have celiac, according to his bloodwork.

He also maintained in the first post on this thread that people don't have digestive systems built for gluten, anyway.

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Obviously, neither Donna nor Scotty bothered to read ViktOr's first post, nor did they check his profile.

He does have celiac, according to his bloodwork.

He also maintained in the first post on this thread that people don't have digestive systems built for gluten, anyway.

Yes I am sorry ViktOR, I did not go to your profile to look, I did read your first post along with everybody elses post on this thread and I guess I did misunderstand him to me with my lack of comprehension skills as a reader I sometimes take things the wrong way which I am not blaming on gluten by any means. I have to read things a million time to understand what is being said, well not a million anyway, I am limited on time on the computer time restraints at the library so I don't have time to reread every post, I am sorry for that as well, which is does get me in trouble at times.

Also sorry for spelling your name wrong on my post. Dislexia kicks my but at times.

donna

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you are right. i was out of line and ignorant. i should have researched. therefore, i am sorry victor

i just hope this all leads to a better understanding and classification; for posterity; to maybe generate conclusions; that we don't have to argue the misunderstanding; that we just, in the end, have the 'proper labels' to treat this disease;...or, at least, that this leads to something

cuz i keep getting glutened or something...know what i mean--like--'thisdiseasekeepsholdingmedown'

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Actually, no, I don't.

My endocrinologist told me that she is now routinely testing diabetic patients for celiac via bloodwork. Those who test positive and go off gluten are able to normalize their blood sugar by being off gluten. Not off carbs, but off gluten.

It appears that at last SOME people presenting with classic diabetic symptoms actually have a problem with gluten. Off gluten, they are perfectly healthy.

The key in your comment here is "Those who test positive." Did your edocrinologist have any observations about people who test negative for Celiac trying a gluten free diet?

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People with Celiac Disease have a leaky gut that lets in environmental triggers, food stuffs, and toxins that others do not. We also have a "screwed up" immune system: some of us have multiple autoimmune diseases (some life-threatening), and a higher than normal cancer and neuropathy risk that DOES NOT go away on the gluten-free diet.

Actually other people DO have these same issues. The majority of the people who are suffering from leaky gut do NOT have Celiac. Its the leaky gut that will open up the door for increased autoimmunity....and this is going on in a much larger group than the 1% with Celiac Disease.

Autism is an example of this...leaky gut is a part of this condition....most of these kids do not have Celiac Disease...however, there are some that do.

Anyone who suffers from leaky gut will have a stressed out immune system. I dont know if I'd call it a "screwed up" immune system....but definately one that is heavily burdened by toxins, bacteria, viruses, fungi, undigested food particles, etc. This sets the stage for autoimmunity...in *anyone*...Celiac Disease or no Celiac Disease.

I agree that this does not go away on a gluten free diet alone.

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Just thought of something else--let's not forget that there is a link between autistic kids with celiac and mercury poisoning...

I dont think there is a direct link here since most of the autistic population doesnt actually have Celiac Disease....even though the diet helps with the condition.

The problem is more related to mercury and the leaky gut. Mercury blocks the DPPIV enzyme required for breaking down gluten and casein. These undigested food proteins pass through the leaky gut and the peptides attach themselves to the opiate receptors in the brain. This causes the kids to remain in a "drugged" state....sometimes unable to speak or make eye contact until these foods are removed from the diet.

Of course some of these kids DO have Celiac...if they are genetically susceptible Celiac can easily be triggered with so much stress on the immune system. They are dealing with mercury, viruses, bacteria, fungi, all of the toxins passing through the leaky gut, gluten, dairy, etc. Its enough to trigger any autoimmune disease process they may be susceptible to.

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Look how many people we all know with diagnoses of autism, fibromyalgia, MS, IBS, rheumatoid arthritis, autoimmune thyroid disease, diabetes, etc.--ALL most likely CAUSED by gluten.

I dont believe that there is any scientific evidence that all of these conditions are *caused* by gluten. In most of these conditions (Autism, Fibro, IBS, rheumatoid arthritis, etc) heavy metals, pathogens and environmental toxins are common triggers. In studies up to 90% of the people suffering these conditions have underlying causes such as Borrelia infections (Lyme), elevated mercury levels, fungal overgrowths, viruses, etc.

All of these triggers are associated with the development of Leaky Gut Syndrome. At that point gluten becomes a problem because its triggering an immune response once it passes through the leaky gut. If gluten were the *cause* for all of these conditions they should not persist when gluten is removed from the diet.

Removing gluten does not *cure* autism....it reduces symptoms by taking stress off of the immune system and the child is able to process things better by not having to suffer from the effects on the brain.

In these conditions gluten is more of an effect rather than a cause....the problems with digesting gluten originate from another source and the result is a gluten intolerance...which may or may not be Celiac (depending on genetic suscptibility).

I tend to agree with those who feel that Celiac is more of a genetic condition rather than a "disease".

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I only have one thing to say on this thread:

If Celiac Disease is not a disease then can you please explain to me what killed my mother? Because I'm very confused.

She was a highly intelligent person but ignorant to the DISEASE. However, she realized through her own process of elimination what was making her sick. She told the doctors in the hospital all of this. She also kept telling them that whatever they were feeding her through her feeding tube was making her sick.

My mother lost the ability to walk. She lost the ability to move on her own in her bed. She had to be rolled over every 3 hours.

Her kidneys failed.

She became emancipated for well over a year and struggled to survive.

She weighed about 65 pounds when she died.

I asked the physician what happened and he responded "her digestive system just stopped working and she stopped absorbing nutrients she needed in order to survive and it slowly shut down her entire system."

So, I'm sorry..... if my mother didn't die of a disease would you please tell me what the hell killed her?

Because I'm pretty sure it was REFRACTORY SPRUE..... so if Celiac isn't a disease would you ever consider Refractory Sprue a disease.....

And PLEASE, I'm begging you, before you respond.... Have you ever, and I mean ever, watched a person starve to death before your eyes????

Don't anyone on here ever tell me it's not a Disease... EVER.

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Perhaps we can all agree that there are two totally different, totally valid ways of looking at celiac disease?

Viewing it as a disease is certainly valid. It is labeled a disease by the medical profession.

It is equally valid to view it as poisoning by a toxic substance for which the human digestive system was never intended, at least, not the way it is ingested today.

I don't think anybody means to cause anybody else anguish here. We all feel passionately about this, er, condition and its classification. Let's not trash anybody else's point, though, just because we feel passionately about it.

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Oh, and if nothing else, having to suddenly think about what you're putting in your mouth certainly makes you think more about what's also healthy and what's not. Also, it certainly forces a lot of people to cook more food which is usually better than buying preprocessed foods like cookies and such.

Actually it forces me to reach for a candy bar that I know is gluten free than risk my chances ordering a salad and finding a cruton. My diet has gotten much worse since I was diagnosed. I still dont' cook much of my own food, it burn alot of it, and when i don't i find it tasteless and boring. So I eat the junk i know is gluten free and tastes yummy, and occasionally eat a risky nutritious meal.

Sad how people think gluten free = healthy when I feel i'm the walking result of candy, potato chips and crackers.

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The key in your comment here is "Those who test positive." Did your edocrinologist have any observations about people who test negative for Celiac trying a gluten free diet?

Well I don't know this persons endocrinologist but I know myself. I am one of those celiacs who don't show up in blood work, at least in the old blood work I haven't been tested since they came up with the TtG test and would never consider going back to gluten to see. I was diagnosed diabetic when I was in the full effects of a glutening and had gone to my useless ex-doctor for help. I spent a year testing my sugars and found that the only time my sugars are elevated are when I am glutened. I spent months testing before and after meals and at waking and before going to bed. I was in a serious panic about the diagnosis and it took about a year and 3 more A1C levels all under 6.1 for me and my doctor to realize that I am not diabetic. Gluten free and for the last couple months soy free (thanks to a reaction from a unneeded drug given by an idiot GI doctor) and my sugar levels are well within normal ranges. For me there is a direct relationship between my blood sugar and my gluten statis. There is also the issue that for a lot of people being ill will impact their bodies ability to react properly to the sugar that is taken in, whether they are celiac or not. So whether the impact on my sugar was related to the gluten itself, or the illness that the gluten caused is debatable I suppose but for me of no real importance. But the fact that so many of my illness have had a direct link to gluten toxicity and complete remission without gluten is very important to my ability to live my life.

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Actually it forces me to reach for a candy bar that I know is gluten free than risk my chances ordering a salad and finding a cruton. My diet has gotten much worse since I was diagnosed. I still dont' cook much of my own food, it burn alot of it, and when i don't i find it tasteless and boring. So I eat the junk i know is gluten free and tastes yummy, and occasionally eat a risky nutritious meal.

Sad how people think gluten free = healthy when I feel i'm the walking result of candy, potato chips and crackers.

You need to start thinking about what you are eating before you get hungrey so you are not tempted to make bad choices. It takes very little time to throw a couple pieces of fruit in a bag or to grab a baggie and put in nuts, gluten-free pretzels, dried fruits and seeds in a baggie to toss in your purse so you are not tempted to grab a candy bar. And if my DS could learn to cook after throughly avoiding the kitchen for the majority of his life you can too. Prediagnosis he thought all he needed in his kitchen was paper plates, takeout menus and a microwave. I walked him through cooking a meal sometimes two or three times a week for the first few months till he got the hang of it on his own. If you need someone to help with something like that just PM me. There is a lot of really simple tasty food that you can prepare yourself very easily but in our society today many people have gotten so used to all the convience foods that they have forgotten how quick and simple it can be to cook whole nutritious foods. It can be hard to break that mindset but it can be done.

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Actually it forces me to reach for a candy bar that I know is gluten free than risk my chances ordering a salad and finding a cruton. My diet has gotten much worse since I was diagnosed. I still dont' cook much of my own food, it burn alot of it, and when i don't i find it tasteless and boring. So I eat the junk i know is gluten free and tastes yummy, and occasionally eat a risky nutritious meal.

Sad how people think gluten free = healthy when I feel i'm the walking result of candy, potato chips and crackers.

Is a salad that hard to make, though? I mean...after all, vegetables are naturally gluten free. So are all tubers, lots of grains and pseudo cereals(quinoa, rice, corn), all legumes, and all meats. I personally don't bake. Most of the food I eat I boil myself. I dunno, I find that my own food tastes better than junk food, but that's me, so I won't impose my view of things on you.

I get the impression that most people feel obligated to cook meats in an oven or on a grill. You can boil those too.

EDIT

------

By the way, if we're going to talk about healthy foods, we really should exclude fruits. Fruits are nature's candy, and while they're a good alternative to what we call "junk food", they're still not particularly healthy as they're mostly sugar. Of course, it also depends on what fruit we're talking about. I mean, nutritionally, the avocado is superior to, say, an apple, but most people don't walk around with a Hass avocado in their pocket, now do they.

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Is a salad that hard to make, though?

I have (finally!) learned to wash, dry, and chop salad greens and keep them in a Tupperware container in the fridge. I also wash and chop green onions and red peppers, dice cucumbers, and I buy pre-shredded carrots, and keep them all in separate containers in the fridge. They stay fresh in the individual containers for several days, so I only have to wash and chop about once a week.

Then, before I leave for work in the morning, it's like I have my own salad bar. It takes me about 2 minutes to assemble a salad in a large plastic container, and I have a separate small container for dressing. I also keep sliced deli gluten-free lunch meat (usually turkey) and shredded cheese.

I put the salad in a lunch bag with a freezer pack and a bottle of water and a piece of fruit, and it lasts 6-8 hours.

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I have (finally!) learned to wash, dry, and chop salad greens and keep them in a Tupperware container in the fridge. I also wash and chop green onions and red peppers, dice cucumbers, and I buy pre-shredded carrots, and keep them all in separate containers in the fridge. They stay fresh in the individual containers for several days, so I only have to wash and chop about once a week.

Then, before I leave for work in the morning, it's like I have my own salad bar. It takes me about 2 minutes to assemble a salad in a large plastic container, and I have a separate small container for dressing. I also keep sliced deli gluten-free lunch meat (usually turkey) and shredded cheese.

I put the salad in a lunch bag with a freezer pack and a bottle of water and a piece of fruit, and it lasts 6-8 hours.

If you're not allergic, try throwing some peanuts in the salad. Good stuff.

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This thread is officially over

Scotty,

You may choose not to participate is you wish. No Board Rules have been broken and until that occurs it may continue. Respect to all posters opinions should continue, as it has.

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