Celiac Disease Antibiotic Cure?

[Ali82]

Hello everybody. Just registered here at this site. Hope we will

have good discussions.

A while ago I read the highly interesting articles by Roy Jamron

about how bacteria might/can cause celiac disease. These

are the articles:

Bacteria with a Taste for Gluten the Missing Link in the Pathogenesis of Celiac Disease? By Roy S. Jamron

Role of the Innate Immune Response in Celiac Disease with Comments by Roy Jamron

After searching on the internet for a while I found this abstract:

W. M. Roufail1 and Julian M. Ruffin1

(1) From the Department of Medicine, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, N. C.

Summary In 2 cases of gluten-sensitive enteropathy, clinical recovery, partial in one and complete in the other, followed the administration of a gluten-free diet. When challenged with gluten both patients had a pronounced relapse. After the prolonged administration of tetracycline both patients have resumed a normal diet and show no effect when challenged with gluten. If these results can be confirmed in other patients, there must be a factor other than gluten in the so-called gluten-sensitive enteropathy.

Supported in part by Grants AM-5093-08 and M01-FR30 from the National Institutes of Health, U. S. Public Health Service.

Effect of antibiotic therapy on gluten-sensitive enteropathy

Journal Digestive Diseases and Sciences

Publisher Springer Netherlands

ISSN 0163-2116 (Print) 1573-2568 (Online)

Issue Volume 11, Number 8 / August, 1966

DOI 10.1007/BF02233506

Pages 587-593

Subject Collection Medicine

SpringerLink Date Sunday, October 23, 2005

SOURCE:

Open Original Shared Link

I found this information very interesting. Maybe it is possible to cure Celiac disease with

the correct antibiotics. If I am correct, tetracycline kills also cell wall deficient bacteria.

Unfortunaly I cannot acces the complete article. I would be very grateful if this can be posted

by a member of this site.

I have been gluten free for approximately 3 years. I am now chelating heavy metals by using

ALA and DMSA every 3 hours. After I have completed the chelation, I might try the long term

tetracycline(or maybe a novel/better antibiotic) to see if it may cure/silence celiac disease.

I mean if it could just make me insensitive to a small amount of gluten that would be great. Then

I could go out and eat food that does not have gluten ingredients, but might have crosscontamination.

I want to make clear that I am no doctor. I do not proclaim that I believe celiac disease can be cured. I am just

a person who has celiac disease and is very interested in possible cures.

Greetings,

Ali

[jhow32000]

I would like to read that article as well. However, I would never want to start eating glutenous foods again and try to stay away from all grains as in unsprouted form they are not healthy for any of us. I don't think I would wreck my general health and gut flora by taking antibiotics long term so that I could go eat at Mc Donalds with my friends. Also, you have to think of the implications of taking the antibiotics at all--that would seriously impair your immune system.

[Ali82]

I would like to read that article as well. However, I would never want to start eating glutenous foods again and try to stay away from all grains as in unsprouted form they are not healthy for any of us. I don't think I would wreck my general health and gut flora by taking antibiotics long term so that I could go eat at Mc Donalds with my friends. Also, you have to think of the implications of taking the antibiotics at all--that would seriously impair your immune system.

Hello. Thanx for your input.

You are correct that antibiotics are bad for the intestines, but

if a bacteria might be causing celiac disease, then I would take

the antibiotics without hesitating. Of course I would also adapt

a very low sugar diet and use antifungals like coconut oil and

garlic, probiotics, lots of yoghurt. The purpose of taking the antibiotics

is killing the bacteriathan makes you sensitive to gluten.

Personally I don't need to eat gluteneous foods, but if taking

specific antibiotics could cure or silence celiac disease, I would still take it,

because then I could go to a restaurant without being afraid

of crosscontamination. It makes live a lot easier.

I tried accesing the article, but it requires a membership and

possible even a fee for viewing the article.

Hope somebody can help.

Greetings,

Ali

[Di-gfree]

I agree, the antibiotics would wreak havoc with your natural flora. Plus, there is the 'resistance' factor, as well, isnt there? Where your body could become resistant to antibiotics, and if something life-threatening came along, it wouldn't be good

[CarlaB]

Also, you have to think of the implications of taking the antibiotics at all--that would seriously impair your immune system.

Not if you have a bacteria that is so bad it's causing an auto-immune condition in the body.

I don't know about curing celiac disease .... all previous studies say it cannot be cured except by a gluten-free diet ..... however, this is very interesting information. I can say my gluten intolerance has cleared up completely after long term antibiotics (including tetracycines) for a chronic infection (Lyme Disease).

I tested negative for celiac disease, but tested as highly reactive to gluten, both IgA (60) and Ttg (42) by Enterolab. I was highly sensitive and reacted to the smallest amount of cc. Now I can eat anything I want.

It's a very interesting theory. I hope that there is more research done in this area. Because of my experience, I can see that there might be something to this.

I've had Lyme Disease over 35 years, so I have had various flare ups of symptoms, and other times of relatively good health. The times I flared were all caused by stress of some sort, physical, emotional, etc. This is common with Lyme, which is a bacterial illness.

This phenomenon of bacterial illness flaring would also explain why stress triggers celiac disease if celiac disease is indeed linked to bacterial illness. It has always seemed to me that the cure exists .... people live not having celiac disease until it is triggered .... if a person can live with the gene and not have the disease triggered, it just makes sense that they could discover how to reverse this .... it just seems that at this point in time, they don't know what the cure is.

[CarlaB]

You are correct that antibiotics are bad for the intestines, but

if a bacteria might be causing celiac disease, then I would take

the antibiotics without hesitating. Of course I would also adapt

a very low sugar diet and use antifungals like coconut oil and

garlic, probiotics, lots of yoghurt.

One of the infections I had with Lyme is Bartonella. Once I treated the bartonella, my constant, severe, years long, diarrhea completely cleared up. I also had severe stomach pains from eating ANY food whatsoever, especially if it contained gluten.

My GI issues all cleared up completely on antibiotics.

As you say, I eat low sugar, take Nystatin as a preventative, take massive probiotics, take garlic and eat lots of coconut oil. In 16 months of antibiotic use, I have had no problems with yeast and my GI symptoms have improved to the point that I no longer have any GI problems whatsoever.

So, yes, antibiotics can wreak havoc on the intestines, but if you have a bacteria there already wreaking havoc, it becomes which is the lesser of two evils? For me it was the pathogenic bacteria that was the worst evil.

[home-based-mom]

As no one yet knows all the implications and intricacies and causes and effects of celiac and/or gluten intolerance, I think researchers are going to have to go through a lot of mazes and down a lot of rabbit trails as part of the learning process. Most of them will probably wind up being dead ends ~ but not all of them.

Given our rapidly changing world, I think research like this is both necessary and fascinating.

There may never be a "cure" but right now I would be most grateful to be able to eat food prepared by someone else without feeling like I was playing Russian Roulette with only one empty chamber while navigating blindfolded through a mine field.

[Ali82]

You all make great points!

Carla that is a fascinating story. I hope you have cured celiac disease.

Maybe you could do a Transglutaminase test after some time to check

whether you really aren't having any problems with gluten.

Homebasedmom, yes you explained exactly what I

was feeling. If somebody else could prepare our food

without making us scarred to death that there may be

tiny amounts of gluten, that by itself, I would consider a

cure.

Bacterial resistance, is a good point you bring up. Fortunately

there are new antibioics being made, but yes that will always

be a concern.

Great discussion. I wish Roy Jamron could give us some answers/

explanations about this abstract/article. Still hoping somebody will

post the entire article.

Greetings,

Ali

[CarlaB]

Carla that is a fascinating story. I hope you have cured celiac disease.

I did not test positive for celiac disease .... I did, however, have gluten intolerance. I have been back on gluten now for about 9 months with no problems at all after 2 years gluten-free. I would get tested again, but it's not worth paying for Enterolab just to satisfy my curiosity. I still have way too many medical bills with the Lyme.

I'd love to see more research in this area. It is fascinating.

[trents]

Tetracycline is one of the safest antibiotics to take on a longterm basis. At least that's what my ENT doc told me when he put me on it for 6 months for a chronic sinus infection a few years ago. I never had a problem with GI distress at all while I was on it. As I recall, I use to be on it pretty regularly when I was a teenager for acne. Don't think it ever gave me any problems then either.

[jhow32000]

Here is a link for that article I think you were talking about.

Open Original Shared Link

well..........maybe not. I don't know but it looks interesting and related to your topic.

[gfp]

I would like to read that article as well. However, I would never want to start eating glutenous foods again and try to stay away from all grains as in unsprouted form they are not healthy for any of us. I don't think I would wreck my general health and gut flora by taking antibiotics long term so that I could go eat at Mc Donalds with my friends. Also, you have to think of the implications of taking the antibiotics at all--that would seriously impair your immune system.

Without antibiotics you would pretty likely not be here.

Are antibiotics overused? Yes but they are not some evil entity (as others have suggested on this forum).

Antibiotics along with vaccinations are what allows our average life expectancy to be something over our 30's.

Much as they are overused they are critical for many life saving reasons from post operative recovery to killer diseases.

I try and avoid antibiotics but not pathologically. I recently had to have a very strong and long course to the point it made me ill for 2 weeks and needed complimentary anti-fungals. This however was in no small part to me refusing the last 3 far more gentle courses my GP had tried to get me to take.

Its not easy and its a balance but I made the wrong choice in that instance perhaps, or perhaps the milder dose would have been ineffective?

[ravenwoodglass]

IF someone has a nonceliac gluten intolerance that is caused by a bacteria then sure antibiotics would be a 'cure'. But true celiac is a genetic differnence that causes an autoimmune reaction in the body. It is not caused by bacteria but by eating a diet that we are not genetically adapted to. Our immune system recognizes gluten as a poison and in it's attempt to rid our bodies of the substance is what causes the reaction. I personally don't think that long term antibiotic use is going to be found to be a 'cure'.

[susieg-1]

IF someone has a nonceliac gluten intolerance that is caused by a bacteria then sure antibiotics would be a 'cure'. But true celiac is a genetic differnence that causes an autoimmune reaction in the body. It is not caused by bacteria but by eating a diet that we are not genetically adapted to. Our immune system recognizes gluten as a poison and in it's attempt to rid our bodies of the substance is what causes the reaction. I personally don't think that long term antibiotic use is going to be found to be a 'cure'.

I agree with this but also believe that many gluten intolerant people are not true celiacs and if they can be helped with long term abx treatment then I also feel the risks would be worth the "cure". I would love to be able to eat food that I haven't had to carefully prepare myself always from scratch (time consuming) and with fairly expensive ingredients. I hate the fact that on Mothers Day I will not have the luxury of having someone pamper me with a meal I did not have to prepare myself!!

[Ali82]

Great points everybody.

Thanx for the link. It made me understand

celiac disease slighly better. Still too complex

Hope somebody will be providing us the article.

Greetings,

Ali

[CarlaB]

The part about celiac disease that makes this seem possible is that more people who carry the genes do NOT have the disease than do. Thirty percent have the genes, but only one percent the disease.

Also, there is something that triggers the disease. Someone might be healthy for their whole life, then have the disease triggered after a trauma. They can digest gluten their whole life, then after the trigger, cannot eat it any longer.

I don't think it's impossible to ever find a way to go back to that "pre-trigger" time. I know we currently do not know how to get there, but I don't think it's impossible just because you have a genetic predisposition to celiac. Most people with that genetic predisposition never get sick.

I did have an autoimmune condition in my body, and I have no doubt that if I was genetically predisposed to celiac that I would have it for that very reason. So, yes, my case is different, for sure, but many who have a chronic bacterial infection develop an autoimmune condition, that is not exclusive to celiac disease. So, if an autoimmune condition can be caused by a bacterial infection, it seems worth it to study further whether it can contribute to developing celiac disease.

There is more to celiac disease than just being genetically predisposed .... everyone who is predisposed doesn't develop celiac disease. When we understand the part that is not genetic, then maybe we will have a real cure.

[gfp]

IF someone has a nonceliac gluten intolerance that is caused by a bacteria then sure antibiotics would be a 'cure'. But true celiac is a genetic differnence that causes an autoimmune reaction in the body. It is not caused by bacteria but by eating a diet that we are not genetically adapted to. Our immune system recognizes gluten as a poison and in it's attempt to rid our bodies of the substance is what causes the reaction. I personally don't think that long term antibiotic use is going to be found to be a 'cure'.

I'm kinda with CarlaB on this....

What causes celiac disease? We know there are genetic pre-dispositions but there must be more...

The thing is it might not be a single thing .... it could be a variety of bacteria that do some damage and causes a trigger... and that in the genetically pre-disposed people this reaction is worse.

So gluten might never be very good for us... or indeed very good for anyone but perhaps if these bacteria are removed we might have a fighting chance of not being half killed by the odd stray breadcrumb....???

[Ali82]

The part about celiac disease that makes this seem possible is that more people who carry the genes do NOT have the disease than do. Thirty percent have the genes, but only one percent the disease.

Also, there is something that triggers the disease. Someone might be healthy for their whole life, then have the disease triggered after a trauma. They can digest gluten their whole life, then after the trigger, cannot eat it any longer.

I don't think it's impossible to ever find a way to go back to that "pre-trigger" time. I know we currently do not know how to get there, but I don't think it's impossible just because you have a genetic predisposition to celiac. Most people with that genetic predisposition never get sick.

I did have an autoimmune condition in my body, and I have no doubt that if I was genetically predisposed to celiac that I would have it for that very reason. So, yes, my case is different, for sure, but many who have a chronic bacterial infection develop an autoimmune condition, that is not exclusive to celiac disease. So, if an autoimmune condition can be caused by a bacterial infection, it seems worth it to study further whether it can contribute to developing celiac disease.

There is more to celiac disease than just being genetically predisposed .... everyone who is predisposed doesn't develop celiac disease. When we understand the part that is not genetic, then maybe we will have a real cure.

Yes exactly Carla. I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the bad bacteria are the trigger for celiac disease and by using

specific antibiotics, these bacteria can be killed and therefore the disease perhaps be silenced again.

Still hoping for the entire article It probably will contain how much antibiotics was used, how many

times and many more very important information.

I think if I would ever use long term antibiotics, I would try newer antibiotics instead of tetracylcine because

maybe the bacteria are more resistent against tetracycline nowadays.

Greetings, Ali

[Rachel--24]

But true celiac is a genetic differnence that causes an autoimmune reaction in the body. It is not caused by bacteria but by eating a diet that we are not genetically adapted to. Our immune system recognizes gluten as a poison and in it's attempt to rid our bodies of the substance is what causes the reaction.

I also agree with Carla on this.

Since the vast majority of genetically susceptible people do not ever develop Celiac Disease it seems unlikely that the disease is caused by eating a diet that we are not genetically adapted to.

Its also well known that the disease requires a trigger. However, I do not believe that the trigger for Celiac is gluten itself. The disease is usually triggered when the immune system is under stress from any type of trauma, infection, chronic stress, pregnancy, etc. When the immune system is under stress (no matter what the source) we are more susceptible to bacteria, virus, parasites or any type of pathogen.

There is lots of evidence to support the thought that autoimmune conditions are caused by underlying factors in the body as well as a genetic predisposition. I dont know of any autoimmune disease (with the exception of Celiac) which cannot be put into remission with treatment of underlying issues....whether it be chelation of heavy metals, antibacterial treatments, antiparasitic treatments, antifungal treatments, etc. etc.

I do think that when the body goes into a state of autoimmunity there is always a reason for it and when that "reason" is identified and treated the autoimmune response can also be resolved.....in most cases of autoimmune disease.

However, I'm not sure that the same is possible with Celiac Disease. There is some information suggesting that candida (yeast) is a possible trigger for Celiac. In a study candida was found to carry the same exact protein sequence that is found in gliadin....the same protein sequence that triggers the autoimmune response in Celiac.

Candida is a yeast that is naturally present in every person.....it is opportunistic and can overgrow when the immune system is under stress. This can be caused by any number of things...everything I listed previously as well as antibiotic treatments, certain medications (i.e. steroids), etc.

If a person becomes susceptible to an overgrowth of yeast (even if only temporarily) its possible that the immune system's response to that can then be carried over so that when gluten is present the immune system is launching the same attack it did on the candida. This would be because gluten has the same protein sequence that is found in the cell wall of candida....and the immune system cannot tell the difference between the two.

If this were proven to be true then it may not be possible to "cure" Celiac.... the immune system may always react in the same way because Candida will always remain in the body (it belongs there) and as long as gluten is making its way into the intestines the immune system may be acting as it would if candida were invading the intestinal lining (as it can when the body is under stress).

This would actually be an appropriate immune response to a potentially pathogenic organism.....however gluten looks too much candida and so whenever a person is consuming gluten the immune system will act appropriately. Gluten can become the enemy (in those who are genetically susaceptible)....however, it was an actual pathogenic organism which triggered the immune response to begin with.

A bacteria infection in the gut can throw off the normal gut ecology....creating a situation of dysbiosis. This can also promote a yeast overgrowth. In this case by treating the bacteria infection and restoring beneficial bacteria the yeast overgrowth can also be resolved. So even in the presence of a bad bacteria infection its still possible that candida would be the actual trigger. Yeast overgrowth is very often an issue when bacterial gut infections are present....whether its Lyme or some other infection...its a stress to the immune system and it can promote yeast overgrowth.

I do believe that its possible for Celiac symptoms to go into remission. However, if candida can trigger the disease....the chances are extremely high that even if the immune response ceased for a period of time the disease would be triggered again because the candida is not going to ever leave the body. Most other pathogens or toxins can be cleared from the body with treatment but this is not the case with candida....it remains in the body. Under any circumstances that weaken the immune system the candida can overgrow once again.

If a person is susceptible to yeast overgrowth while under stress....it seems very likely that if it were the trigger for their Celiac....the autoimmune response would be re-triggered the next time the yeast had the opportunity to overgrow. The same immune response would be launched and once again gluten would appear to be the enemy.

I dont think that remission would be possible unless gluten were avoided for a long period of time....and then I think that the chances of having the disease re-triggered are just too high to risk abandoning the diet.

As far as I know the only pathogen found to have a direct link to gluten so far is candida. Other species of yeast dont share the same protein sequence. Its only the yeast that are capable of attaching themselves to the intestinal lining (candida albicans) that can trigger the production of tissue transglutinamase (tTG).

HWP1 is a transglutaminase substrate, and is used by C albicans to adhere to the intestinal epithelium. Furthermore, tissue transglutaminase and endomysium components could become covalently linked to the yeast. Subsequently, C albicans might function as an adjuvant that stimulates antibody formation against HWP1 and gluten, and formation of autoreactive antibodies against tissue transglutaminase and endomysium.

https://www.celiac.com/articles/695/1/Does-...ease/Page1.html

[Rachel--24]

I dont think that remission would be possible unless gluten were avoided for a long period of time....and then I think that the chances of having the disease re-triggered are just too high to risk abandoning the diet.

I just want to clarify that in making this statement I'm referring to a remission of Celiac related symptoms/damage while on a diet which is not gluten free.

I am aware that remission of disease symptoms is always possible while gluten-free.

[tarnalberry]

I may be able to get access to the article, but posting the whole thing would be a copyright violation. (I can try to summarize after I see if I can get access - I can't from home.)

As for the "can we untrigger the genes"? Antibiotics are *quite* unlikely to be the "untrigger". Geneticists have, by now, learned that there are portions of the genetic code that act - essentially - as switches, for other sections of the chromosome they are on. Various things can affect these regions and turn a switch from "off" to "on" (or vice versa), which is essentially what's happening when celiac is triggered in adulthood. Various research has shown that different pathogens can do this, and different chemicals.

But turning a gene off isn't the same as merely removing whatever has turned it on, so it seems highly unlikely that antibiotics would magically hit the same spot that is the switch for celiac genes that a bacteria happened to turn on. Impossible, no, but highly coincidental. It seems reasonable that it would help a bacterial induced enteropathy, but not a true genetic case.

This could, however, help further elucidate differences between "types" of gluten intolerance. If we could then test for them, that could reduce the number of people requred to be on a gluten free diet.

[Rachel--24]

It seems reasonable that it would help a bacterial induced enteropathy, but not a true genetic case.

This could, however, help further elucidate differences between "types" of gluten intolerance. If we could then test for them, that could reduce the number of people requred to be on a gluten free diet.

I agree. I dont think that antibiotics alone would untrigger the Celiac gene. For some cases of non-celiac gluten sensitivity it may be the answer.....but probably not the magic bullet for those who have true Celiac Disease.

[Ali82]

I may be able to get access to the article, but posting the whole thing would be a copyright violation. (I can try to summarize after I see if I can get access - I can't from home.)

As for the "can we untrigger the genes"? Antibiotics are *quite* unlikely to be the "untrigger". Geneticists have, by now, learned that there are portions of the genetic code that act - essentially - as switches, for other sections of the chromosome they are on. Various things can affect these regions and turn a switch from "off" to "on" (or vice versa), which is essentially what's happening when celiac is triggered in adulthood. Various research has shown that different pathogens can do this, and different chemicals.

But turning a gene off isn't the same as merely removing whatever has turned it on, so it seems highly unlikely that antibiotics would magically hit the same spot that is the switch for celiac genes that a bacteria happened to turn on. Impossible, no, but highly coincidental. It seems reasonable that it would help a bacterial induced enteropathy, but not a true genetic case.

This could, however, help further elucidate differences between "types" of gluten intolerance. If we could then test for them, that could reduce the number of people requred to be on a gluten free diet.

You make good points Tarnalberry. The thing is that scientist know quite a lot about

celiac disease, but still there is much to learn. Who knows maybe a certain bacteria

is responsible for turning on the whole machinery of the celiac disease.

The article written by Roy Jamron explains why a certain bacteria might cause

celiac disease very well.

I think it was something like e cell wall deficient bacteria that might ingest gluten

is recognized by the body as a foreign invader. So if we could kill this bacteria by

using antibiotics, then you take away ''the foreign invader''.

Perhaps certain genetic switches affect multiple other switches and therefore shutting

off one switch can make a huge difference. Again I am no doctor, just speculating.

Hello Rachel. Yes you are correct. Candida might trigger celiac disease. I had read the abstract.

It's quite complex to understand all.

Keep the good stuff coming.

Greetings,

ALi

[CarlaB]

I think if I would ever use long term antibiotics, I would try newer antibiotics instead of tetracylcine because

maybe the bacteria are more resistent against tetracycline nowadays.

It would all be a function of what bacteria is being treated. I am taking both Levaquin and Doxycyline right now to go after two different bacterias. The Levaquin won't kill the Lyme, but the Doxy won't kill the bartonella.

I wasn't thinking along the lines of "untriggering" a gene, rather eliminating the autoimmune condition. If the autoimmune condition is caused by candida, metals, bacteria, etc. then working to stop that condition might, feasibly untrigger the reaction to gluten (in theory).

I'm sure it wouldn't be as simple as taking one antibiotic and being forever celiac disease-free anymore than taking one antibiotic would cure Lyme Disease. To cure the Lyme, I have been systematically getting rid of metals, other toxins, killing other infections/conditions that go along with Lyme because of the weakened immune system, eliminating parasites, restoring balance in the intestinal flora, etc. If there was ever a "cure" found to eliminate the autoimmune condition of celiac disease, I would guess it could be equally as complicated.

[Rachel--24]

I wasn't thinking along the lines of "untriggering" a gene, rather eliminating the autoimmune condition. If the autoimmune condition is caused by candida, metals, bacteria, etc. then working to stop that condition might, feasibly untrigger the reaction to gluten (in theory).

The problem is that with Celiac Disease there IS a gene involved...and the gene DOES get triggered in order for a person to aquire the disease. No matter what triggered the gene in the first place....there is no evidence (so far) that removing the "trigger" can allow a person to consume gluten again without consequence.

Even if candida were the actual trigger for Celiac....once the gene is triggered the autoimmune response continues as long as a person is consuming gluten. I have read of cases in which a person abandons the diet after having been on it for several years....and then find that they are once again able to eat gluten. This *may* be the only way that the disease can be put into remission....if the trigger (candida?) is no longer an issue and gluten was removed for a long period of time.

However, I do believe that in most cases the autoimmune response would even eventually return....especially if candida was the trigger in the first place.

I dont really think its possible to untrigger the gene by simply removing the initial trigger....especially since once the gene is activated gluten BECOMES the trigger for the autoimmune response from that point on. You would have to remove both the intitial trigger AND gluten for a substantial amount of time in order to *possibly* halt the autoimmune response. Even then I'm not sure that its possible....and even if it were possible the chances of the gene getting retriggered would be too great.

As far as stopping immune responses to gluten that are non-celiac....I think that treating the underlying issues will take care of that in most (if not all) cases.