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...(said the fly on the wall) :ph34r:

buzz, buzz . . . me, too. :P . . . but I gotta say . . .

This is not splitting hairs, folks. This is false and misleading advertisement. Enzymedica claims that GlutenEase is not formulated for Celiacs, and then turns right around and describes Celiac Disease as the condition they do aim for.

Good one, Sarah!

Thoroughly enjoying the sparring, folks . . . and learning a few things, too . . . carry on.

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The following quotes are taken directly from Enzymedica's (maker of GlutenEase) website. Here's the link again for easy reference: http://www.enzymedica.com/products/GlutenEase

Near the top of the page, you see the CYA statement:

Continue reading, for Enzymedica's explanation of the "cause" of gluten intolerance:

Note that this paragraph gives no explanation of cause other than the proteins being difficult to digest. Not offensive in and of itself, but I just wanted to be clear.

Next paragraph, still under "Cause of Gluten Intolerance."

They're claiming that they're describing non-Celiac gluten intolerance, when in fact they're describing Celiac Disease. Confusing, at best... it's actually outright misleading.

This is not splitting hairs, folks. This is false and misleading advertisement. Enzymedica claims that GlutenEase is not formulated for Celiacs, and then turns right around and describes Celiac Disease as the condition they do aim for.

This is wrong.

It is my understanding that villous atrophy and leaky gut can be caused by other situations other than celiac disease.

I re-read the entire page on Enzymedica just to see if I am missing something....I think that by starting off in the very first paragraph

This new formula supports people suffering with gluten or casein intolerance. GlutenEase is not formulated to prevent celiac symptoms
.

I personally don't see what the problem is.

I find this to be a true statement:

For many individuals who consume wheat or dairy products, the particular proteins gluten and/or casein are difficult to digest and can lead to intestinal inflammation, malabsorption and a number of disorders including Leaky Gut or other syndromes
.

Like I said, gluten intolerance can be caused by more than just celiac. We can all agree that celiac disease is highly undiagnosed AND the testing measures are far from being accurate. Could we then argue that possibly some of us have "gluten intolerance" rather than "celiac"? How do we really know? Unless you have had genetic testing (and even then?)...unless you are completely healed being gluten free.

If you are still having problems being gluten free....it could be you (hypothetical "you") have not gotten to the root of your illness. Gluten intolerance would then be stepping stone to yet another underlying condition. It is my *opinion* (so please don't take this the wrong way:) ) that many people are gluten intolerant and have not gotten to the *root* of their illness.

I find it very disturbing that doctors aren't more educated in this area and stop at that. My question is....what caused me to become gluten intolerant.....why am I still having issues after being gluten free after 5 years? Why can one person suffer for 3 days by a minute cross contamination and another is fine? Why hasn't leaky gut healed after being gluten free for so long?

(These are all hypothetical questions and are not meant to describe any particular person here.)

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It is my understanding that villous atrophy and leaky gut can be caused by other situations other than celiac disease.

They can be. But villous atrophy (in particular) being caused by something other than Celiac is extremely rare. More to the point-- when you're talking about villous atrophy and gluten intolerance, you are talking about Celiac Disease. Anything else would be a very dubious stretch.

I re-read the entire page on Enzymedica just to see if I am missing something....I think that by starting off in the very first paragraph

This new formula supports people suffering with gluten or casein intolerance. GlutenEase is not formulated to prevent celiac symptoms

I personally don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that they immediately contradict themselves in the next section.

I find this to be a true statement:

For many individuals who consume wheat or dairy products, the particular proteins gluten and/or casein are difficult to digest and can lead to intestinal inflammation, malabsorption and a number of disorders including Leaky Gut or other syndromes

Like I said, gluten intolerance can be caused by more than just celiac. We can all agree that celiac disease is highly undiagnosed AND the testing measures are far from being accurate.

Both of the paragraphs under "Cause of Gluten Intolerance" are true statements. The problem lies in the fact that the paragraphs are in no way explaining the cause of non-Celiac gluten-intolerance. They are describing Celiac Disease- and they are describing it in a context that implies that these are the people that the product is aimed at.

They are not saying that intestinal inflammation, malabsorption, Leaky Gut, etc are possibly causes of gluten intolerance. They are saying gluten intolerance can lead to these problems.

Could we then argue that possibly some of us have "gluten intolerance" rather than "celiac"? How do we really know? Unless you have had genetic testing (and even then?)...unless you are completely healed being gluten free.

I've never in my life argued against the fact that there are various causes of gluten intolerance. :)

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They can be. But villous atrophy (in particular) being caused by something other than Celiac is extremely rare. More to the point-- when you're talking about villous atrophy and gluten intolerance, you are talking about Celiac Disease. Anything else would be a very dubious stretch.

Celiac diasease biopsy: What are other possible causes of biopsy changes that mimic celiac disease?

Cow

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The fact that Celiac is a genetic disease doesn't really have anything to do with it, when you factor in that about 1/3 of the population has a "Celiac gene." (I put that in quotes because there's also international debate about how many different genes can predispose a person to Celiac. There are a handful of others, besides the two that are accepted in the US, that are acknowledged on other countries.)

Just looking at the numbers, the 1/3 of the population who carries a gene can easily cover ALL people who are gluten-intolerant. Now before anyone's feathers get ruffled- I am NOT saying that everyone who is gluten intolerant has Celiac. I am quite aware that there are other conditions that can cause the intolerance. I'm simply making the point that the fact that Celiac is genetic in no way proves the assumption that "most" gluten intolerants do not have Celiac.

I believe that most gluten intolerants (not all) do have Celiac, whether it's shown up on standard tests (yet?) or not.

Yes.....if we were to make the assumption that EVERY person with a genetic susceptibility to Celiac Disease will actually develop the disease this would cover a large portion of gluten intolerance in the country. I dont think it would cover ALL cases of gluten intolerance....but a large percentage.

However, this is a really BIG assumption to make. We ALL have genes which predispose us to certain diseases....fortunately, simply having a genetic predisposition does not map out our future. We are not destined to develop the disease just because we have a gene which predisposes us to it.

I think that alot of us can agree that gluten intolerance is somewhat of an epidemic in this country.

If we were to assume that *most* of the people with gluten intolerance have Celiac (even with negative testing) this would include almost ALL of the autistic population. There is no evidence to support this and the actual incidence of Celiac Disease in the autistic population is no higher than it is in the rest of the population.

There is also no evidence which would lead me to believe that having a celiac gene just about guarantees that you will develop the disease. I think that is a HUGE misconception and nothing I have ever seen suggests that this is even remotely possible. To the contrary....it seems that most people carrying these genes do not ever develop the disease.

Then there is the fact that a huge amount of gluten intolerants dont carry these genes at all.

While they might not have a full understanding of all of the genes involved...DQ2 and DQ8 still represent the vast majority (something like 98%?) of diagnosed Celiacs. This means that we are not having a large amount of people with different genes testing positive for Celiac Disease. Its only maybe 2% which dont carry either of these genes.

That being said, we have a large amount of people right here on this board who are gluten intolerant without having either of those genes....and the vast majority of them are not testing positive for Celiac Disease.

We cannot make the assumption that ALL of these people are actually Celiac's who have "unidentified" genes and only because of "faulty" testing they are not able to test positive for the disease.

If you are going under the assumption that MOST of the gluten intolerant people in this country have Celiac Disease....then yes...I can see how you would be upset about a product such as GlutenEase which is marketed towards the gluten intolerant community.

However, I dont think we have ever seen any clear evidence which would lead us to believe that by having a genetic predisposition to Celiac....you are most likely to develop the disease. I think its pretty far-fetched. One does not simply need to carry the gene to develop the disease.....the gene must be triggered.

On the other hand...leaky gut seems to be a major factor for non-celiac gluten intolerance. This is definately evident in Autism as well as many other chronic illnesses. The list of causative factors known to cause damage to the intestinal lining is long. Assuming all of these cases are actually Celiac Disease would prevent healing for many...because the issues that have damaged the gut would remain unidentified and complete healing would never take place.

Leaky gut also seems to be somewhat of an epidemic...and even though Celiac is one cause of leaky gut.....it is not the most common cause.

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:blink: I have to admit, I'm pretty shocked that anyone would actually think it's more likely that they're talking about anything other than Celiac, when they're talking about villous atrophy.

As I said before, I realize there are other causes of villous atrophy. But if you are gluten intolerant and you have villous atrophy... come on. The chance that you have Celiac is beyond huge. That's why doctors attempt to use biopsy as a diagnostic tool.

Nobody sees villous atrophy + gluten intolerance and thinks AIDS. So yes, I most definitely see the ad as being contradictory and misleading.

Gluten intolerance does not = celiac disease in all cases.

Once again... I'm not arguing against this statement.

Anyway... you and everyone else are more than welcome to join this discussion. In fact, the more, the better. :)

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Yes.....if we were to make the assumption that EVERY person with a genetic susceptibility to Celiac Disease will actually develop the disease this would cover a large portion of gluten intolerance in the country. I dont think it would cover ALL cases of gluten intolerance....but a large percentage.

I certainly do not think that every person with a Celiac gene will develop it.

There is also no evidence which would lead me to believe that having a celiac gene just about guarantees that you will develop the disease. I think that is a HUGE misconception and nothing I have ever seen suggests that this is even remotely possible. To the contrary....it seems that most people carrying these genes do not ever develop the disease.

I agree with this and never have said otherwise.

We cannot make the assumption that ALL of these people are actually Celiac's who have "unidentified" genes and only because of "faulty" testing they are not able to test positive for the disease.

I do not assume that everyone has Celiac. I do think that a large percentage of them do, as I said, but not all.

However, I dont think we have ever seen any clear evidence which would lead us to believe that by having a genetic predisposition to Celiac....you are most likely to develop the disease. I think its pretty far-fetched.

I never said that, and I do not believe it.

Rachel...

I only pointed out the fact that 1/3 of the population has a Celiac gene because-- you said that the fact that Celiac is genetic was the reason why you think that most gluten intolerants are not Celiacs. This was not logical to me, as a reason.

I am not, never have, and never will, argue that other reasons for gluten intolerance do not exist or don't matter.

:)

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They are not saying that intestinal inflammation, malabsorption, Leaky Gut, etc are possibly causes of gluten intolerance. They are saying gluten intolerance can lead to these problems.

And this is true!

Leaky gut can occur for many reasons....there is no single cause for the development of leaky gut. There are many possibilities and more than one factor can be involved.

Gluten can be a cause for leaky gut....and it can also be a result of leaky gut. It can happen either way....and YES...it *can* cause damage to the intestinal lining without Celiac Disease.

They are stating that gluten intolerance can lead to the problems of intestinal inflammation, malabsorption and a number of disorders including leaky gut....and this is true. Its true for both Celiac's and non-celiacs.

Again, you are going under the assumption that MOST cases of gluten intolerance are Celiac Disease...and you are going under the assumption that these gut issues "define" Celiac Disease.

The fact is that while they *can* define Celiac Disease....these conditions are not limited to Celiac Disease.

There are still a large amount of people who do not have Celiac Disease but who do have difficulty breaking down gluten and properly digesting it. This can lead to inflammation, malabsorption and leaky gut. Some people do not produce enough enzymes to break it down....the product contains these very enzymes.

In that paragraph I am not seeing anything which sets off "alarms" for me....because I know all of this to be true in cases of non-celiac gluten intolerance.

HOWEVER, this next paragraph (which I hadnt seen previously) DOES set off alarms for me.

Gluten exhibits a unique amino acid sequence which creates inflammation and a flattening of the villi of our intestinal tract. The villi provide the intestine with the ability to absorb nutrients from the foods we eat, thus damaged villi can lead to responses such as malabsorption, nutrient deficiencies or other digestive disorders.

While I do believe that other conditions (in rare cases) can cause flattening of the villi (possibly in the cases of those 2-3% biopsy proven celiacs w/out the main genes?)....I do feel that this is misleading and more clearly defines Celiac Disease.

Why dont we let Enzymedica know how we feel about that...why dont we try to make some changes to protect those uneducated Celiac's who might cause harm to themselves by consuming gluten while taking these enzymes??

I dont think that the enzymes are going to be pulled off the market (and I dont feel that they should be) but I do feel that the mention of "flattened villi" is misleading.

The rest I see no problem with and in my opinion is not specific to Celiac Disease and very clearly defines health risks which are not uncommon for people with non celiac gluten intolerance.

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And this is true!

Leaky gut can occur for many reasons....there is no single cause for the development of leaky gut. They are many possibilities and more than one factor can be involved.

I agree, and acknowledged that that paragraph was saying true things.

HOWEVER, this next paragraph (which I hadnt seen previously) DOES set off alarms for me.

Gluten exhibits a unique amino acid sequence which creates inflammation and a flattening of the villi of our intestinal tract. The villi provide the intestine with the ability to absorb nutrients from the foods we eat, thus damaged villi can lead to responses such as malabsorption, nutrient deficiencies or other digestive disorders.

While I do believe that other conditions (in rare cases) can cause flattening of the villi (possibly in the cases of those 2-3% biopsy proven celiacs w/out the main genes?)....I do feel that this is misleading and more clearly defines Celiac Disease.

(BIG sigh of relief!) Thank you!!! That's exactly what I've been trying to say since post #150. I went back and took another look at that ad, to try and pinpoint exactly why it had left me with such a strong impression that it was geared toward Celiacs. Then it jumped right out at me. That's what the big thing was.

Why dont we let Enzymedica know how we feel about that...why dont we try to make some changes to protect those uneducated Celiac's who might cause harm to themselves by consuming gluten while taking these enzymes??

Not a bad idea at all!

I dont think that the enzymes are going to be pulled off the market (and I dont feel that they should be) but I do feel that the mention of "flattened villi" is misleading.

I agree with both parts of this... I don't feel it should be taken off the market. But the marketing of the product is misleading.

:)

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PS..

Again, you are going under the assumption that MOST cases of gluten intolerance are Celiac Disease...and you are going under the assumption that these gut issues "define" Celiac Disease.

The fact is that while they *can* define Celiac Disease....these conditions are not limited to Celiac Disease.

Yes, I do believe that most cases of GI are Celiac (and since we are both making educated guesses there, we can probably agree to disagree on that one,) but no I'm not going under the assumption that those gut issues define Celiac. I'll say again... I recognize that there are other causes of GI. My problem with that paragraph was simply this-- in the whole section "Causes of Gluten Intolerance," they never once mentioned a cause. Their use of the phrase "can lead to..." is the key.

In other words... they were not saying that there are such and such causes of GI. I hope nobody reads it that way, because that's not how it was written. So-- I'm not saying these gut issues don't matter, or that the mention of them proves that they're talking about Celiac. I'm saying that the company is not presenting Leaky Gut or anything else as a cause of GI. KWIM?

These were my exact comments on that paragraph:

Continue reading, for Enzymedica's explanation of the "cause" of gluten intolerance:

For many individuals who consume wheat or dairy products, the particular proteins gluten and/or casein are difficult to digest and can lead to intestinal inflammation, malabsorption and a number of disorders including Leaky Gut or other syndromes.

Note that this paragraph gives no explanation of cause other than the proteins being difficult to digest. Not offensive in and of itself, but I just wanted to be clear.

It was the second paragraph that I had a huge problem with:

Next paragraph, still under "Cause of Gluten Intolerance."

Gluten exhibits a unique amino acid sequence which creates inflammation and a flattening of the villi of our intestinal tract. The villi provide the intestine with the ability to absorb nutrients from the foods we eat, thus damaged villi can lead to responses such as malabsorption, nutrient deficiencies or other digestive disorders.

They're claiming that they're describing non-Celiac gluten intolerance, when in fact they're describing Celiac Disease. Confusing, at best... it's actually outright misleading.

Just wanted to be 100% clear... You and I have are having an issue the the same statement.

:)

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Rachel...

I only pointed out the fact that 1/3 of the population has a Celiac gene because-- you said that the fact that Celiac is genetic was the reason why you think that most gluten intolerants are not Celiacs. This was not logical to me, as a reason.

I'm basing this not only on the fact that Celiac is genetic....but also on the fact that it is pretty well understood that *most* people who carry the genes do not ever have them triggered.

The statistics for Celiac Disease is around 1 out of 133. This figure is not based on Celiac's who were already diagnosed. The figure comes from a study which involved the screening of both high-risk and low-risk populations.

The new study, which is the largest multi-center, epidemiological study ever on the prevalence of celiac disease in the U.S., took place over five years and included blood samples from 13,145 people, including adults and children. The purpose of the study was to look at the disease's prevalence in both "at-risk" and "not at-risk" populations.

Nearly 9,000 people were considered "at-risk" because they either had relatives with celiac disease, symptoms such as diarrhea or abdominal pain, or other disorders associated with celiac disease, including diabetes, Down syndrome or anemia. More than 4,000 study participants were considered "not at-risk."

The study found that among "at-risk" participants, celiac disease was present in one out of 22 people who had first-degree relatives with the disorder. It was also present in one out of every 68 adults with celiac disease-associated symptoms and one out of every 25 children with symptoms. Among those study participants who were considered "not at-risk," celiac disease was found in one out of every 133 people.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/...30212073309.htm

The incidence of non-celiac gluten intolerance is much higher than that...simply because gluten is very difficult to digest. Which is exactly why a product which includes the necessary enzymes to break it down can be very helpful to the non celiac gluten intolerant community. If those of us who are non celiac gluten intolerant can digest the proteins efficiently....we are less at risk for the intestinal inflammation, malabsorption. leaky gut and other disorders.

So while the product might be harmful for some Celiac's who might misinterpret the purpose of these enzymes....without the enzymes alot of people who are NOT Celiac would have to resort to the life-long gluten free diet...simply because they lack the enzymes necessary to break it down. And as Scott stated in his post (who really wants to do this? :huh: ).

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Note-- I just edited post #160 rather heavily, so Rachel, you may wish to re-read it. Thanks. :)

So while the product might be harmful for some Celiac's who might misinterpret the purpose of these enzymes....without the enzymes alot of people who are NOT Celiac would have to resort to the life-long gluten free diet...simply because they lack the enzymes necessary to break it down. And as Scott stated in his post (who really wants to do this? :huh: .)

I agree.

Has anyone here actually said that it should be taken off the market? I don't think so, but I'd have to go back and re-read. Perhaps it's been implied by some. (But not me. :P )

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I mainly joined in this discussion because 1) I didn't think it was nice the way some people were being treated 2) the discreditation of enzymes.

I just wanted to say that I'm glad you joined the discussion (the more the merrier :) ) and that my reasons for participating in this thread were the same as yours.

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Has anyone here actually said that it should be taken off the market? I don't think so, but I'd have to go back and re-read. Perhaps it's been implied by some. (But not me. :P )

I dont recall if anyone has directly stated that the enzymes should be taken off the market. I do recall seeing words such as "dangerous", "snakeoil", "junk", etc.....and I could be wrong but I'm assuming those people dont want this product on the market. :P

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It is my understanding that the only known viable treatment for celiac and non celiac gluten sensitivity is the strict adherence to the gluten free diet.

I also believe it is the forum's responsibility to protect the gullible ones among us from those who seek take advantage and sell us things that just don't help.

neesee

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My problem with that paragraph was simply this-- in the whole section "Causes of Gluten Intolerance," they never once mentioned a cause. Their use of the phrase "can lead to..." is the key.

In other words... they were not saying that there are such and such causes of GI. I hope nobody reads it that way, because that's not how it was written. So-- I'm not saying these gut issues don't matter, or that the mention of them proves that they're talking about Celiac. I'm saying that the company is not presenting Leaky Gut or anything else as a cause of GI. KWIM?

They do mention a cause...they are stating that the protein is difficult to digest. This is a cause for gluten intolerance! This can be a cause for ANY food intolerance...if we cant digest it...we develop problems with it.

If we lack the enzymes for digesting lactose.....we are lactose intolerant....and this can actually impede healing!! Which is why its recommended that Celiac's avoid lactose until those enzymes are once again being produced.

So obviously, if we cant properly digest things....it can lead to additional problems. An inability to breakdown gluten and casein = gluten and casein intolerance...which can lead to intestinal inflammation, malabsorption, leaky gut, etc. Thats what I get out of this paragraph.

For many individuals who consume wheat or dairy products, the particular proteins gluten and/or casein are difficult to digest and can lead to intestinal inflammation, malabsorption and a number of disorders including Leaky Gut or other syndromes.

They arent mentioning leaky gut as a cause of gluten intolerance because it doesnt always happen that way. Alot of times it happens the other way around....because of problems with digestion.

The product is for addressing that issue of breaking down these foods....nothing else. Its purpose is to improve digestion. Obviously if many non-celiacs are no longer gluten intolerant after they implement these enzymes....then the intolerance was a result of an inability to digest the proteins.

I dont think they need to list every possibility for gluten intolerance....there are so many variables when it comes to non-celiac gluten intolerance.

For example, if a person has a problem with yeast or bacteria....this can have an effect on enzyme production and digestion. So maybe the actual underlying causes are the overgrowths which have occured in the gut. However, now we have a problem with digestion....and the enzymes may be necessary to improve that situation. The only other option would be to avoid all of the foods which are causing problems.

There are lots of possibilites for enzyme deficiencies, there are lots of contributers to inflammation in the gut, there are so many different scenarios that can take place which might result in gluten intolerance.

I see no logical reason for Enzymedica to delve into all of that on their website. The point is that when we cant properly digest the protein it causes inflammation....and if there is already inflammation (for some other reason) then the problem is only going to get worse.

Regardless of what came first "the chicken or the egg" if a non celiac person isnt properly digesting gluten...it leads to additional problems.....and this is where the enzymes can be helpful.

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Just wanted to be 100% clear... You and I have are having an issue the the same statement.

Agreed regarding paragraph 2 and the mention of "flattened villi". ;) I dont like that part. :(

It is my understanding that the only known viable treatment for celiac and non celiac gluten sensitivity is the strict adherence to the gluten free diet.

In my experience this is not true for non celiac gluten intolerance which can be caused by certain conditions in the body...including enzyme deficiency, an imbalance of gut flora (dysbiosis), yeast overgrowth, etc.

Of course if none of these things are addressed...then yes....the person should stick to the diet. ;)

When the problem isnt Celiac...some people choose to get to the root of the problem to improve their overall health.

Many non-celiac gluten intolerant people are able to overcome their intolerance by addressing the underlying problems...which for some may be as simple as supplementing the necessary enzymes. For others it may be more complicated if infections or other problems are contributing.

For Celiac's there is no treatment other than the strict gluten free diet.

I also believe it is the forum's responsibility to protect the gullible ones among us from those who seek take advantage and sell us things that just don't help.

I think Scott and the moderators do a great job of keeping those who seek financial gain off of this board.

We cant assume that every person who has something positive to say about a product is trying to benefit financially.

I can assure you that I have nothing to gain from posting about enzymes in a positive manner. :)

I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone and I'm not affiliated with Enzymedica....nor do I take this particular brand of enzymes (I use a different brand).

Its apparant that the people who have actually used enzymes have benefited from them.

So far I havent seen any posts where a person has said they were harmed by taking the enzymes.

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The incidence of non-celiac gluten intolerance is much higher than that...simply because gluten is very difficult to digest. Which is exactly why a product which includes the necessary enzymes to break it down can be very helpful to the non celiac gluten intolerant community. If those of us who are non celiac gluten intolerant can digest the proteins efficiently....we are less at risk for the intestinal inflammation, malabsorption. leaky gut and other disorders.

So while the product might be harmful for some Celiac's who might misinterpret the purpose of these enzymes....without the enzymes alot of people who are NOT Celiac would have to resort to the life-long gluten free diet...simply because they lack the enzymes necessary to break it down. And as Scott stated in his post (who really wants to do this? :huh: ).

I think the product would also be harmful to the non-diagnosed Celiacs who are currently labeled Gluten Intolerant (either by themselves or their doctors) . . . and perhaps this is what Sarah was trying to say . . . we know that there are many on this board who are self-diagnosed either because they were fed up with their doctors/medical community, didn't have the insurance, IgA deficiant but never got IgG testing, had already gone gluten-free and didn't want to challange or were told by their doc they only needed to eat gluten for a week prior to testing, and then there are the standard false negatives. Many were diagnosed through Enterolab which we know can't diagnose Celiac. We have all seen the advice over and over on the board (I've said it myself) . . . "you don't need a diagnosis to remove gluten from your diet", "whether you are Gluten Intolerant or Celiac, the course of action is the same, a gluten-free diet," "you don't need a prescription from the doctor to go gluten-free," yada, yada, yada. You know that there are some undiagnosed Celiacs in those groups. I would have no guess as to how many.

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Unclezack:

I've never heard of any study currently being done that made any mention of a specific amount of gluten that they hope their treatment will allow people with celiac disease to eat, so I have no idea where you get this 25 gram amount--but please let us know. Since you seem to be the person whose focus on this board is to defend Glutanese as something that is potentially safe for people with gluten intolerance, you must have facts and evidence to back up your claims--otherwise you will create false hopes in people that have the potential to harm them.

GFinDC you are correct in post #134 here--breaking down gluten into smaller parts is easy and can be done with many kinds of enzymes--actually in brewing beer barley enzymes can do this. The problem is that people with celiac disease have a problem with one of those smaller parts--gliadin, which is a tiny peptide/amino acid sequence within the gluten molecule. Breaking this tiny peptide down is the hard part, and there is nothing on Glutanese's web site that even talks about its ability to break down gliadin--this should be a huge warning and red flag for anyone who reacts to gluten, including anyone with gluten intolerance.

Glutanese buyer beware: If something sounds to good to be true, it usually is. It is up to you to protect your own health, as there are plenty of companies out there who will gladly take your money by making health claims that they can't back up.

Unclezack: If you are one of the owners of Glutanese, and I suspect you are, good luck in court trying to convince a jury that you were not making any claims that Glutanese can allow those with gluten intolerance to eat slices of wheat-crust pizza.

FYI: I blocked Glutanese's Google ads from appearing on this site long ago--you won't see them here or on Celiac.com--I don't want their money because I think they are purposefully misleading people.

Take care,

Scott

Scott, this link: http://www.celiaccentral.org/Other/Alba_Article/481/ is not the original one I tried to post earlier, but you can read in the third paragraph that there is optimism of being able to eat 2.5 grams of gluten which they compared to one slice of bread. The other article said 25 grams. 2.5 grams would be a pretty thin slice of bread, however they may be weighing the actual amount of gluten rather than the weight of the bread.

I defend several of the products made by Enzymedica because that is the brand I use. It is the only brand I have ever used because it helps me digest all starches. If I were using a different brand that aided my digestion and curbed symptoms of cross contamination, I would be defending that product instead. I am happy with Enzymedica products, so I have no desire to try a different product. I initially started using their digestive aids when I first went gluten free 5 years ago to aid my digestion, not to combat gluten. I am extremely cautious about gluten, however, we do like to eat dinner away from home at times and enzymes do work for me with cross contamination.

The only ownership I have in Enzymedica is a partial bottle of Glutenease and a partial bottle of Acid Soothe sitting on top of my microwave.

I came here to read what others had to say about Glutenease. Someone had posted a question asking what others thought about the product. I replied my honest feelings about the product. I was immediately accused of being a "shill" along with a few others who had posted in favor if the product. I was recently PM'ed by Peter Sawyer who stated that he had reviewed all of the posts and didn't see me in that category. Now I'm an owner of Enzymedica? Since several of the other members have defended my opinions, they must be on my payroll! I am very disappointed about your accusation. Gluten intolerance and celiac disease are still being researched. That means that there is still more to learn about the disease and no one knows all of the answers. Like research on any other disease, it is ongoing and there are new findings about diseases we thought we already knew the answers to, including the common cold which we take for granted. New research, new ideas, hopefully better ways to cope with disease.

I don't know if you are just stating it as an example, but I have never said that anyone could take enzymes and eat a slice of pizza.

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I was recently PM'ed by Peter Sawyer...

That was on Friday, and much has happened in this debate since then. The focus of that message was to clarify the board policy about the posting of links to other sites. I said that I didn't think you were a shill, but I am inclined to reconsider my thinking. You have posted more than twenty times in this thread. More than 90 percent of your total posts are in this thread. This thread had been dormant for about 9 months until you revived it. Hmmm.

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It is my understanding that the only known viable treatment for celiac and non celiac gluten sensitivity is the strict adherence to the gluten free diet.

I also believe it is the forum's responsibility to protect the gullible ones among us from those who seek take advantage and sell us things that just don't help.

neesee

It is the board's responsibility to protect us from sneaky advertising, but personally, I would like to be responsible for researching and making my own choices by hearing accounts of others - good and bad - on a particular product or idea. I don't want to be "protected" because others might be gullible. :)

I think the product would also be harmful to the non-diagnosed Celiacs who are currently labeled Gluten Intolerant (either by themselves or their doctors) . . . and perhaps this is what Sarah was trying to say . . . we know that there are many on this board who are self-diagnosed either because they were fed up with their doctors/medical community, didn't have the insurance, IgA deficiant but never got IgG testing, had already gone gluten-free and didn't want to challange or were told by their doc they only needed to eat gluten for a week prior to testing, and then there are the standard false negatives. Many were diagnosed through Enterolab which we know can't diagnose Celiac. We have all seen the advice over and over on the board (I've said it myself) . . . "you don't need a diagnosis to remove gluten from your diet", "whether you are Gluten Intolerant or Celiac, the course of action is the same, a gluten-free diet," "you don't need a prescription from the doctor to go gluten-free," yada, yada, yada. You know that there are some undiagnosed Celiacs in those groups. I would have no guess as to how many.

I think there are definately undiagnosed celiacs in the group as well as supposed celiacs who might actually be gluten intolerant with other issues underlying that caused the gluten intolerance. I see it all over the board...."I am not eating gluten...but still having issues...." kind of scenario.

When I first went gluten free I could have sworn I was celiac. But now after researching, learning, and dealing with many underlying conditions, I am not so sure of that now. I think others probably go through the same learning experience. Its just that others may stop at being gluten free because they think they found the answers.

My aunt was supposedly diagnosed with celiac because she had diarreah for 3 weeks non-stop. The dr said she could go gluten free and see if that helps OR she could do a small intestine biopsy to confirm. She went gluten free and many issues cleared up for her. She calls herself celiac, but is she? That we'll never know. Either way, she is eating healthier now than ever which is good...

Okay, guess I am getting Off topic :)

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I dont know if anyone is a shill or not. And I am not going to say because I dont know.

I used to sell on eBay and remember how rotten it felt when someone would email me accusing me of shill bidding. Here I was excited that I was going to make a sale and watching the bidding war, and some jerk had to email me with all kind of nasty remarks. In the end, on eBay, the auction would end and I made a sale. Of course the nasty person reported me to eBay, then eBay did their research to see all bids were legit. and the nasty person got no satisfaction (by seeing my auction pulled). But the point is, you dont know who it is you are accusing. I know it doesnt feel good to be falsely accused.

And you would have to be pretty desperate to come into an "obviously hostile" environment day in and day out just to try to sell your product. When there are so many more receptive places.

Health food stores absolutely LOVE to have "guest speakers". Find a health food store that gets a lot of traffic from Mom's and sick people and you could make a fortune. I see this little "seminars" all of the time at various HF places in Tampa. And it is ALWAYS someone selling something. Even ate my lunch next to a gluten intolerance one a few months ago. The woman was selling her book and herbs.

Me personally, from a marketing standpoint, would not bother with in here......

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I dont know if anyone is a shill or not. And I am not going to say because I dont know.

I used to sell on eBay and remember how rotten it felt when someone would email me accusing me of shill bidding. Here I was excited that I was going to make a sale and watching the bidding war, and some jerk had to email me with all kind of nasty remarks. In the end, on eBay, the auction would end and I made a sale. Of course the nasty person reported me to eBay, then eBay did their research to see all bids were legit. and the nasty person got no satisfaction (by seeing my auction pulled). But the point is, you dont know who it is you are accusing. I know it doesnt feel good to be falsely accused.

And you would have to be pretty desperate to come into an "obviously hostile" environment day in and day out just to try to sell your product. When there are so many more receptive places.

Health food stores absolutely LOVE to have "guest speakers". Find a health food store that gets a lot of traffic from Mom's and sick people and you could make a fortune. I see this little "seminars" all of the time at various HF places in Tampa. And it is ALWAYS someone selling something. Even ate my lunch next to a gluten intolerance one a few months ago. The woman was selling her book and herbs.

Me personally, from a marketing standpoint, would not bother with in here......

Well if you read the whole thread there were numerous shills that were outed up at the beginning. All of them (incl. Unclezack) had acct creation dates after this thread was started and all immediately started praising the product with their only posts being in this particular thread.

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Just out of curiousity....if I had joined the board last week and my first post was in this thread (because its a topic I'm somewhat familiar with) how many people here would be calling me a shill?? :unsure:

The majority of my posts have been in this thread the past few days.

I actually kind of felt like woolygimp was implying that Rachel/Zack are one in the same. :blink:

Of course I'm not defending anyone who actually IS a shill....but sometimes we just DONT KNOW.

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