Sluggish Gallbladder/liver: Herbs And Salicylate/gluten Sensitivity

[YoloGx]

I have just recently experienced problems in my liver/gallbladder which seem to be helped by avoiding meat and butter for now and emphasizing raw blended veggies like parsley with celery and ice burg lettuce, and cooked veggies, whole cooked brown rice, fresh ground flax seed, lots of water, some plain no fat yogurt--and to my amazement, my old detox herbs.

This would not be so amazing except for the fact that this last year I have been avoiding all medium to high salicylates due to a skin condition plus intractable insomnia with accompanying nerve twitching etc.

Whereas dandelion root is not particularly high in salicylates, I am betting that marshmallow root, barberry root and Oregon grape root are. But here I am happily ingesting them in decoctions (albeit more watered down than in the past!) and they seem to be really helping me. I did this out of desperation since the AMA remedy of surgery with accompanying antibiotics is not a good path for me if I can at all avoid it. Why make a lazy liver even lazier devoid of a gall bladder unless one has a real emergency?? I plan to stay on diet for at least a month and see where it takes me. Eventually I want to introduce adzuki beans and see if I can digest them since they reportedly help dissolve cholesterol which can create stones or just plain old sludge.

I was on a similar diet nearly three years ago when my kidneys were under it and it really helped me at the time. Eating meat was just killing--as it is now.

This diet with the herbs is really helping me again. It truly makes me wonder if I still have as severe a case of salicylate sensitivity as I did a year ago?? Or if that was in some ways not quite the right diagnosis since a sluggish liver can also cause eczema and insomnia and nerve problems, and may also be helped by having extra sulpher -- like from epsom salt baths and taking MSM (of which I am helped).

Truly I cannot tolerate aspirin and it seems most all high salicylate foods. Last year I could not tolerate hardly any medium level salicylates at all and needed to go off most all herbs. All I could have was garlic, onion, leeks, parsley by way of herbs...

And up until now I could not even tolerate eating raw low salicylate fruits like golden delicious apples and pears without getting terrible eczema, itching and twitching, whereas now (assuming I peel them) they appear to be very beneficial, especially for the liver and gall bladder.

Ironically it is becoming my belief now that I may have needed the herbs all along, but just had overdone using them and plus ate much too high salicylate foods for my system. Behind all this, yes I react to aspirin by getting spontaneous bruises. Plus I have a sister who is highly salicylate sensitive as well as celiac.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this?? It theoretically ain't supposed to happen folks, but here it is. Brought on by necessity perhaps?? i.e., is it just my temporary distress that is causing this remission in symptoms from the herbs?? (i.e. high in salicylates).

Anyone else experience anything like this??

While puzzling all this I also discovered that the liver/gallbadder can be another area for gluten attack. Excess stress doesn't help either... The whole mind/body connection rears its head once again.

A puzzling bit of evidence. I would love to get other folks feedback on either their experience with their sluggish liver/gallbladder episodes and/or this salicylate (herb) sensitivity situation. Of course I would love it if my high salicylate sensitivity really is beginning to be on the way out for real.

[Skylark]

I am starting to think sensitivities have a lot to do with leaky gut, missing bacteria that are supposed to metabolize certain chemicals, and inflammation. I remember you were having huge problems with yeast. If you got that sorted out you might have started healing your gut. Maybe not as much salicylate is getting through now. Check out this cool article. It also looks like your getting sulfur better in balance would help with salicylate tolerance too.

Open Original Shared Link

[Monael]

I am really amazed at connections that I am finding with gluten issues and other gastrointestinal problems. I am currently undergoing testing because I have abdominal pain that I am assuming is related to the gallbladder (upper right quadrant pain, nausea and bloating). I know I do have gallstones but they are not always symptomatic. I wasn't aware of salicylate type sensitivities. Thanks for posting this, I am going to investigate these herbs, maybe they will help with my gallbladder problems? I don't want surgery either, it seems that many who have had their gallbladders removed either go on to have other problems or still have the same pains.

[YoloGx]

I am starting to think sensitivities have a lot to do with leaky gut, missing bacteria that are supposed to metabolize certain chemicals, and inflammation. I remember you were having huge problems with yeast. If you got that sorted out you might have started healing your gut. Maybe not as much salicylate is getting through now. Check out this cool article. It also looks like your getting sulfur better in balance would help with salicylate tolerance too.

Open Original Shared Link

Hi Skylark,

Thanks for the link to the SCD salicylate/phenol article. I was hoping you would respond to my query. The article has a lot of good info and helps me see all this in more perspective, particularly about the phenols and the role of sulpher and leaky gut. Interestingly I was on the SCD diet for 10 months but it did not entirely work for me, as suggested also by the article. I had to adjust it to my condition. Though at that time I didn't know about my salicylate problem. I now find eating cooked brown rice to be healing and am not willing to take it out of my diet quite yet--though I would if I had to.

The suggestion one needs to take more enzymes is a good one. Its just difficult finding the right one(s). I take pancreatin currently. I do not do well with ox bile and the usual bromelain is out. I could take papain if I could find one without the sorbitol. I don't seem to need to take HCL. Nevertheless a bit of lemon or lime juice now actually seems to help.

Salicylate sensitivity all by its lonesome can create leaky gut syndrome. Coupling that with long term celiac doubles the trouble. And yes I do think despite my liver becoming more fatty from the foods I ate t his last year, I have cleared out a lot of built up salicylates and have thus done a lot of healing. The extra sulpher has gone a long way to help all this along, I agree. I also think taking nattokinase each early morning also helps to heal a lot of the old scar tissue in my intestinal villi.

Elsewhere today on the internet I saw part of a naturopathic treatment plan for those with salicylate sensitivity that suggests one use golden seal and nettles to help heal the condition. I found it very interesting since berberine is the main active ingredient in golden seal, plus two of the herbs I mentioned (barberry and Oregon Grape Root). I then did a bit of sleuthing and it appears I have been wrong about the herbs in question, including the marshmallow root and dandelion root. None of them high in salicylates from what I can tell. This comes as a big surprise to me since all the salicylate lists insist that herbs are almost all high in salicylates. Well, no I know, not really quite all, eh?

So that means I wasn't actually poisoning myself with heavy duty detox herbs all those years like I thought. Instead I was helping myself deal and to a great extent heal. Which makes sense given how good they h ave always made me feel despite multiple problems which were offshoots of the combined celiac and salicylate sensitivity condition.

These particular herbs are also not the immune stimulants I feared. They stimulate the macrophages (the good guys that eat up the toxins) and not the killer T Memory Cells produced by the Thymus that are for good reason feared by those who have an auto immune condition like celiac, rheumatoid arthritis etc. etc. since if you take the wrong herbal stimulants your auto immune condition can start to go wild.

Not everyone can either tolerate or are ready for the heavy duty detox herbs; however my system is well adapted to them, especially given my long term use and initial approach of just using a bit at a time before getting into them more. I definitely believe in the principle of graduality even though I may not look like I am doing that in the end.

I am doing the graduality thing again now for my liver/gallbladder congestion, but may soon increase the dosage of these herbal roots if it seems like all is getting better each day--as it seems to be doing.

Meanwhile I am enjoying eating my cooked brown rice with a passle of green beans and a little safflower oil and sea salt.

Thanks again for your input Skylark! It feels very good to get the suggestion my body is actually getting better despite this current kerfuffle.

Bea

[YoloGx]

I am really amazed at connections that I am finding with gluten issues and other gastrointestinal problems. I am currently undergoing testing because I have abdominal pain that I am assuming is related to the gallbladder (upper right quadrant pain, nausea and bloating). I know I do have gallstones but they are not always symptomatic. I wasn't aware of salicylate type sensitivities. Thanks for posting this, I am going to investigate these herbs, maybe they will help with my gallbladder problems? I don't want surgery either, it seems that many who have had their gallbladders removed either go on to have other problems or still have the same pains.

Hi Monael

Certainly this condition is not limited to those who have salicylate sensitivity!

I suggest you try just a bit of each herb at a time to see if they all agree with you. The barberry I suggest you take last since it is the most bitter and is not always tolerated by everyone. I got them in powder form and take a teaspoon in boiling water and let sit to cool down til its drinkable. Add extra water if it is too strong. If you get the whole roots, you can boil them for twenty minutes on a low simmering boil. The herbs will stimulate your bile and your digestion and elimination while soothing and healing the lining of your gut, liver and gallbladder--as well as your kidneys. They will also likely help break down the cholesterol.

If your lymphatic system needs help too, consider taking cleavers or raspberry leaves (though you should look up if they are an immune stimulants of the T-cells or not). Am betting they are high in salicylates, though don't quote me on it yet. I may go look them up shortly.

There are many good suggestions on the internet about diet to help you fix your gallbladder and liver which really is the key deal. No animal fats at all! emphasize eating fresh vegetables and fruits, and of the fruits particularly those that have vitamin C and pectin like apples and pears. Apparently celery and parsley are very good. I suggest putting some chopped up in your blender with some lettuce and spring water. It is very drinkable and obviously good for one.

Also try drinking a lot of water with fresh lemon or lime juice, especially if something you have eaten seems to be "heavy" with oil of any kind. If olive oil is well tolerated, its excellent since it helps soften the sludge or "stones" by breaking down the cholesterol--especially with the addition of accompanying lemon or lime juice. For me I have to take non salicylate oils and plan to get some sunflower oil which also works at least almost as well as the olive oil. I suggest putting the oil of your choice on your food for a more gradual (rather than a radical) approach.

A tablespoon of fresh ground flax seed mixed with a tall glass of water, and chased by another, will also help with your elimination plus give you needed Omega 3's. A teaspoon of cod liver oil twice a day will likely help you deal with stress better as well as the elimination of some of the cholesterol stones.

Good luck! Let's keep each other posted on our progress.

Bea

[Skylark]

Amazing about the herbs. I'm so glad to hear your regimen seems to be working.

You know a lot more herbalism than I do. It's only something I've dabbled in because it's so hard to learn. There is so much conflicting information, and a lot of it is old folklore that's tough to track down. I find it hard to sort out the real information and I always end up a little afraid of poisoning myself. I'm much happier working with foods, spices, and super-safe supplements like MSM. I'm considering going to a friend who does TCM because some of that stuff is downright amazing.

For enzymes, can you eat fresh papaya or pineapple? Sometimes the natural forms are much better than pills.

I realized a lot of my recent Hashi's trouble started after an antibiotic and I had a bunch of feminine yeast issues right after. I took some pretty darned strong probiotics and my favorite Zand Candida Cleanse a couple months after when I realized I was in trouble but apparently I didn't keep it up for long enough. Now I'm doing GAPS and it's helping a lot. I just got a fresh round of die-off when I introduced coconut oil. Die-off isn't much fun but I was pleased to see it nonetheless.

The autoimmunity herbs are so hard. I don't know for the life of me if I'm TH1 or TH2. I have signs of both. Did you figure out for yourself? I seem to feel better with caffeine, but they're finding out it's anti-inflammatory in general so I don't know that labeling it as TH1 or TH2 is even correct.

Monael, a LOT of celiacs have gall bladder trouble. Have you been gluten-free for long? It tends to resolve as the celiac inflammation goes away but that can take a while - months to a couple years. Inflammation isn't only in your intestine. It can be throughout your digestive system. Try the herbs Yolo suggested and give the gluten-free diet some time. Rest your gall bladder too by going easy on fats and eating small, frequent snacks rather than big meals. As well as lemon or lime juice, sauerkraut juice is great for digestion. Get a brand like Bubbie's that is unpasteurized and has the healthy bacteria. Also go off dairy if you can stand to. A LOT of us are casein sensitive and you can get a lot of healing by going off dairy for a time.

[CR5442]

Wow Yolo, Skylark et al. All of the above! Haven't had time to read everything in detail but yes, I am having the gallbladder/liver pain, nausea and digestion issues. So Skylark it may not have anything to do with some random meditteranean liver condition after all! Let's wait and see what the paper says.

Yolo, I was wondering about meat. I had a big reaction after lunch yesterday. Generalised itching that was really really prickly. However, the liver pain and gallbladder discomfort seemed to subside after taking some ACV in water... not much though. It is so confusing trying to pin down what is causing the problem!

Like you I'm on herbs. Dandelion I find really too drying for me. Instead I take 200mg milk thistle (which I think you can get in powdered form as well as tincture) and a long infusion of Rosemary... of all herbs I never knew this one was such a good cholagogue/choleretic. I think it's action is mostly relaxing to the gallbladder so even though it is essentially a drying herb it really helps gallbladder flow. I make it with two cups of water and three sprigs of rosemary. Cover over pot to stop volatile oils escaping and drink slowly after 30-40 minutes of steeping.

As for salicylates I'm sure there is some issue with them for most people with leaky gut lining. Perhaps they cross the gut barrier in greater quantities and overburden the system/liver in a way that normal people with a reliable gut don't get. Skylark, can you shed any technical light on this... you may have done so already! I really should read all the replies before writing!

[CR5442]

Just another question Yolo. Do you have a scalloped tongue? Just interested because I do.

[bartfull]

I react very badly to aspirin too, and I have been hanging out at salcylatesensitivity.com lately. The other day when I mentioned I ate one thickly peeled pear and had a reaction, I was told that we all have a certain level of sals that we can tolerate, and when we stay away from sals, we can eat SOME, and for a WHILE, until they build back up to the level we can't tolerate. Maybe you are in your "grace period" after staying below your threshold for so long?

One of the other things I learned over there is that they believe sal sensitivity is more a SYMPTOM than a true intolerance. Perhaps getting the gluten, corn, or whatever other intolerances we may have under control could cause the sal sensitivity to go away.

It sure is an adventure, isn't it? How boring life would be if we didn't have to think about every little thing we put in our mouths. I feel sorry for people who can eat anything that comes to hand. What do THEY constantly think about?

[YoloGx]

Just another question Yolo. Do you have a scalloped tongue? Just interested because I do.

Hi C--good to see you here!

Don't know what you mean by a scalloped tongue. Please explain.

Hmm--I used to use rosemary all the time. I should look it up to see if it too is low in sals or not.

It was the peppermint that really messed me up. When I would drink that sleep went out the window.

What exactly meanwhile do you mean by the herbs being "drying"?? Are you taking enough oils in your diet? With this they have to be the right ones (i.e., no animal fats), often chased with some lemon or lime. But you still need them.

I am discovering that even plain no-fat yogurt is a no no. I am going to have to go to the store and buy some adzuki beans to experiment with. Am thinking of sprouting them so they will be more digestible. They have been recommended as a way to melt down the possible cholesterol gallbladder stones.

Meanwhile I am going to try out eating tofu for a while. Not my favorite thing to eat, but right now I don't see what other protein that will work for me while I am recovering from this liver gallbladder episode now that I no longer eat sunflower seeds. And of course eggs now are out too...

[YoloGx]

Hi Skylark--I copied and pasted some of your remarks and put them in quotes which I then responded to underneath:

"For enzymes, can you eat fresh papaya or pineapple? Sometimes the natural forms are much better than pills."

That is such a good idea. I can't handle pineapple, however fresh papaya should be fine. I will buy some today!!

"I realized a lot of my recent Hashi's trouble started after an antibiotic and I had a bunch of feminine yeast issues right after. I took some pretty darned strong probiotics and my favorite Zand Candida Cleanse a couple months after when I realized I was in trouble but apparently I didn't keep it up for long enough. Now I'm doing GAPS and it's helping a lot. I just got a fresh round of die-off when I introduced coconut oil. Die-off isn't much fun but I was pleased to see it nonetheless."

Excuse my ignorance, but what is "GAPS"??

Also, as far as western herbs go, you might be interested in cleavers. As far as I can tell, it is not an herbal immune stimulant. It really helps clean up the system--including feminine issues. Check it out online. Am thinking of using it again too for this liver/gallbladder issue.

Be careful of the Chinese herbs. Some are great, others can be a real issue due I think to their being sprayed on the way over here if not in China plus avoid the little black pills rolled around in who knows what kind of flour to make them stick together...

"The autoimmunity herbs are so hard. I don't know for the life of me if I'm TH1 or TH2. I have signs of both. Did you figure out for yourself? I seem to feel better with caffeine, but they're finding out it's anti-inflammatory in general so I don't know that labeling it as TH1 or TH2 is even correct."

I cannot tolerate any caffeine. It just totally wires my system. Not even green tea or chocolate. Honestly. I agree the auto immune issues with herbs is a big negative. The thing I am discovering however is that it is not all a blanket no no if something is an immune stimulant. The thing is to figure out what it is that is being stimulated--i.e,. T Memory Cells (for us the baddies since they go hog wild going after any old thing that partly looks like something they were after before even if it is just a faint copy or likeness) or Macrophages (the goodies since they gobble up the plain old toxins in one's system).

Meanwhile please excuse more of my ignorance. What is TH1 or TH2?? Does this have to do with the thyroid??

A really good friend of mine theoretically had Hashimotos but got over it even though he still has a low thyroid. He too has c eliac or a very closely related condition.

My thyroid is medium high according to tests even though I have a low body temperature, low blood pressure etc. I took thyroxin for a while years ago and ended up with my eyes bugged out. I had to take pituitone to get my thyroid to function again, but function now it does. I think I am lucky since my sisters both have a low thyroid, as does my mother. We all were subject to radiation from the Hanford nuclear experiments--aka the "Green Run" in late 1949 and other releases the following couple of years--before we moved to Bothel near Seattle and finally to California.

[CR5442]

Hi C--good to see you here!

Don't know what you mean by a scalloped tongue. Please explain.

Hmm--I used to use rosemary all the time. I should look it up to see if it too is low in sals or not.

It was the peppermint that really messed me up. When I would drink that sleep went out the window.

What exactly meanwhile do you mean by the herbs being "drying"?? Are you taking enough oils in your diet? With this they have to be the right ones (i.e., no animal fats), often chased with some lemon or lime. But you still need them.

I am discovering that even plain no-fat yogurt is a no no. I am going to have to go to the store and buy some adzuki beans to experiment with. Am thinking of sprouting them so they will be more digestible. They have been recommended as a way to melt down the possible cholesterol gallbladder stones.

Meanwhile I am going to try out eating tofu for a while. Not my favorite thing to eat, but right now I don't see what other protein that will work for me while I am recovering from this liver gallbladder episode now that I no longer eat sunflower seeds. And of course eggs now are out too...

Hi Bea, by scalloped I mean with teeth marks around the edges. Not necessarily all the teeth marked out but some. That would indicate liver as it does with me. It's totally wierd about the rosemary as it does a lot of similar things to dandelion but isn't as drying. By that I mean I feel dehydrated after taking dandelion... it doesn't sit well with me. Rosemary seems gentler and less dehydrating for the digestive system/organs/skin. In our class we discussed it is mildly drying and heating whereas dandelion is traditionally more so. Be interesting to see if you notice the difference with the two. Interesting about the things you react to liver wise now. I too have problems with eggs when in pain. I took ACV yesterday and today and it seems to have calmed things down immensely but I don't take it all the time as it can be irritating to the gut.

I looked up the constituents of rosemary and i don't think it is high in salicylates but I could be wrong as it is part of the lamiacea (mint) family, as is sage/thyme/oregano and Mint. Mint I think is quite underestimated by the general population. It is an extremely strong and powerful herb. Wonderful I think for certain situations like colds/flu, but powerful in the gut too, so probably for that reason bad for us. I have taken it over the past few weeks but whatever benefits I had were being outshadowed by the harshness of it.

I'll have a look for other herbs for gallstones. Milk thistle is definitely one. Rosemary is helpful though not sure it breaks them down. It is so interesting the herbal degree I'm on as they are teaching us to 'feel' the effects of the herbs, as well as learning the clinical/scientific stuff. So when we talk about warming/drying and cooling/moistening they all kind of sit on one side or the other. Some sit on the midline. That's probably why in TCM they talk about damp cold... that would be immunity affected in the stomach/digestive system. The recommendation is always to eat warm foods, never cold or from the fridge. This might be why you have a problem with the yoghurt. The human body is better eating warm foods. Running out of time today and have to finish my first herbal essay so will get back to you when I can!

[YoloGx]

I react very badly to aspirin too, and I have been hanging out at salcylatesensitivity.com lately. The other day when I mentioned I ate one thickly peeled pear and had a reaction, I was told that we all have a certain level of sals that we can tolerate, and when we stay away from sals, we can eat SOME, and for a WHILE, until they build back up to the level we can't tolerate. Maybe you are in your "grace period" after staying below your threshold for so long?

One of the other things I learned over there is that they believe sal sensitivity is more a SYMPTOM than a true intolerance. Perhaps getting the gluten, corn, or whatever other intolerances we may have under control could cause the sal sensitivity to go away.

It sure is an adventure, isn't it? How boring life would be if we didn't have to think about every little thing we put in our mouths. I feel sorry for people who can eat anything that comes to hand. What do THEY constantly think about?

Hi Bartfull,

I just re-signed up at the salicylate site (though you got the url a little off I still found it). Thank you for reminding me about it. I just participated in the topic about kidneys on it. Kidney health relates closely to the issue with the liver/gallbladder actually, since many of the same herbs work for both. If the liver/gall bladder go off, the kidneys are not far behind. For me kidneys are a huge issue since I have to be extra protective of them due to damage to my right kidney years ago and a family tendency to have weak kidneys.

The thing is is that after posting this topic, I discovered that the herbs in question actually are not high in salicylates and may in fact help against some of the salicylate sensitivity since 2 of the herbs (the Oregon Grape Root and the Barberry) are high in Berberine. In doing research on this subject about the herbs, I discovered that Golden Seal and Nettles are sometimes used by Naturopaths to combat Salicylate Sensitivity. The active ingredient in Golden Seal is Berberine. You get the rest.

I just looked up Nettles. They are a great antidote to Salicylate Sensitivity and poisoning!! Why I don't know yet...

I am wondering too if Cleavers is a potentially big actor in all this too...

To me this seems very important. A huge clue in the puzzle so to speak. What do you think?? And this business of killer T cells vs macrophages seems muy importante in differentiating which herbs to use and which not since we don't want to be stimulating our already over active immune systems.

And yes it is all very interesting though honestly there are plenty of other things to think about, but nevertheless here it is, we get to be like Sherlock, eh?

[Monael]

WOW I have a lot to learn I am going to have to do a lot of research because this whole topic is fascinating. My gallbladder has been giving me a whole lot of problems and I don't want surgery-I will avoid it at all costs. The only way I would consider it at this point is if it became infected and it was endangering my life. Thanks for all the info!

[CR5442]

Hi All, so here are some details on the herbs that Yolo (Bea) mentioned above.

All the following are both antilithic (dissolving and preventing the formation of Gallstones) and act on liver congestion:

Barberry Root

Dandelion

Milk Thistle

Rosemary

Antilithic mainly is:

Nettle

Liver decongestives are:

Oregon Grape Root

Goldenseal

Most herbs have a salicylate content. The most concentrated seem to be the lamiacea family so - peppermint, thyme, rosemary, Oregano etc. Salicylate sensitivity appears to be particularly marked in people with gut issues. Cases of ulcerative colitis have been exacerbated by this compound.

This paper explains some of the mechanics behind absorption, conversion and excretion of acetyl salicylic acid:

Open Original Shared Link

Aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid), once absorbed, is

hydrolysed almost immediately to salicylic acid. A

proportion of this is excreted unchanged, but it is

largely conjugated with glycine to form salicyluric

acid. The remainder is converted to salicyl

phenolic glucuronide, salicyl acyl glucuronide and

gentisic acid. The conjugates of salicylate are

cleared more rapidly through the kidney than

salicylic acid and are thus the more effective

Both salicyluric acid and salicyl phenolic

glucuronide are said to be rate limited in their

formation and excretion (Levy & Tsuchiya, 1972).

This implies that with increasing dosage their

synthesis does not increase proportionally. The

capacity limit for their formation may be

approached or even exceeded by doses of aspirin

well within the therapeutic range (Levy, Tsuchiya

&Amsel, 1972).

My thoughts are that it is possible, with the increased toxin absorption through the leaking gut caused by celiac disease, that it increases the level of salicylates in the blood stream and increases the burden on the liver. It is also possible that the half-life of salicylates in the system is much increased in people with liver stagnation, poor bile emptying function. Skylark, you are the biologist amongst us... any clues on salicylate accumulation and half-life issues in celiac or other digestive diseases?

It is possible I suppose, that if gut health is improved the burden on the liver and other systems, particularly the kidneys is reduced, allowing them to both act at full capacity on conversion of and reducing chemical loads of compounds like salicylic acid... perhaps something for further study?! Will post more on the qualities of the above herbs when i have a moment.

[CR5442]

One other thing Bea on peppermint and salicylates. Could I ask what your symptoms were? Both digestive, neurologically and physically? I was trying to see if there were compounds in some herbs that weren't in others, particularly bitters. I thought saponins might be one issue as they are gut irritants... however, Peppermint doesn't have these in any great quantity if at all.

[Skylark]

Thanks for the suggestion of cleavers. There is an herb store in town so I'll try to go by over the long weekend and see if they have it.

GAPS diet is a version of the Specific Carboyhdrate Diet that's got extra probiotics and a lot of gelatin-rich bone broth. It is designed to heal the intestine and hopefully repopulate it with healthier bacteria. Open Original Shared Link

For the TH1 vs TH2 branches of the immune system, here are a few links. It's not simple and the articles explain it better than I will. The idea is that the immune system gets out of balance, but it can be different in different people. Herbs that work for a TH1 person will make a TH2 person sicker.

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

This is the problem with stimulating the wrong side of the immune system. Open Original Shared Link

[YoloGx]

Thanks for the suggestion of cleavers. There is an herb store in town so I'll try to go by over the long weekend and see if they have it.

GAPS diet is a version of the Specific Carboyhdrate Diet that's got extra probiotics and a lot of gelatin-rich bone broth. It is designed to heal the intestine and hopefully repopulate it with healthier bacteria. Open Original Shared Link

For the TH1 vs TH2 branches of the immune system, here are a few links. It's not simple and the articles explain it better than I will. The idea is that the immune system gets out of balance, but it can be different in different people. Herbs that work for a TH1 person will make a TH2 person sicker.

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

This is the problem with stimulating the wrong side of the immune system. Open Original Shared Link

These are fantastic links! Thank you Skylark and Caroline.

I think finding out if one is TH1 or TH2 could be of great value for healing one's health. I am now wondering if there is anyone here in the SF Bay Area who could do these tests? The lowball self test to me would indicate I am TH2 since Green Tea is completely out for me. All I need to do is drink one cup of watered down Green Tea and I feel hyped up for at least 48 hours. Nevertheless I also avoid Echinacea since I know it is an immune stimulant. So maybe I don't need to??

Given the herbs in question (Marshmallow Root, Dandelion Root, Oregon Grape Root, Barberry Root), I wonder how they orient with this TH1 or TH2?? I tried to choose ones that are not stimulants as much as possible. I thus did not suggest Echinacea (or Green Tea) or even Burdock Root. If any on the list might be a stimulant, I would think it would be the Barberry, thus my suggestion to use it with observation and caution. Certainly Dandelion does not appear to be an immune stimulant; it just seems to be very good for most everyone (though of course there always is the exception).

As far as my "list" goes, I did not suggest Rosemary, though if one does NOT have a salicylate problem, it is a very good herb to use. It may be slightly stimulating however since it is part of the mint family.

I did suggest Marshmallow Root (the one herb Caroline left out). It is the oddball in the list since it has no berberine and is not a cleanser or blood purifier; nevertheless it is key in matters of both gut and liver/gallbladder health as well as the kidneys since it is mucilaginous plus anti-inflammatory. I don't believe it is a stimulant of any kind. Nevertheless, people on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet look at Marshmallow Root with suspicion since they fear it may clog the lining of the intestines. I never found it to be harmful at all, but like the articles Skylark showed us, we are all a little different. My feeling is that for those with Celiac or Salicylate Sensitivity, a little mucilage on the intestinal wall can be healing rather than a source of problems. This may present itself differently for someone with Crohn's disease however.

[YoloGx]

Hi All, so here are some details on the herbs that Yolo (Bea) mentioned above.

All the following are both antilithic (dissolving and preventing the formation of Gallstones) and act on liver congestion:

Barberry Root

Dandelion

Milk Thistle

Rosemary

Antilithic mainly is:

Nettle

Liver decongestives are:

Oregon Grape Root

Goldenseal

Most herbs have a salicylate content. The most concentrated seem to be the lamiacea family so - peppermint, thyme, rosemary, Oregano etc. Salicylate sensitivity appears to be particularly marked in people with gut issues. Cases of ulcerative colitis have been exacerbated by this compound.

This paper explains some of the mechanics behind absorption, conversion and excretion of acetyl salicylic acid:

Open Original Shared Link

Aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid), once absorbed, is

hydrolysed almost immediately to salicylic acid. A

proportion of this is excreted unchanged, but it is

largely conjugated with glycine to form salicyluric

acid. The remainder is converted to salicyl

phenolic glucuronide, salicyl acyl glucuronide and

gentisic acid. The conjugates of salicylate are

cleared more rapidly through the kidney than

salicylic acid and are thus the more effective

Both salicyluric acid and salicyl phenolic

glucuronide are said to be rate limited in their

formation and excretion (Levy & Tsuchiya, 1972).

This implies that with increasing dosage their

synthesis does not increase proportionally. The

capacity limit for their formation may be

approached or even exceeded by doses of aspirin

well within the therapeutic range (Levy, Tsuchiya

&Amsel, 1972).

My thoughts are that it is possible, with the increased toxin absorption through the leaking gut caused by celiac disease, that it increases the level of salicylates in the blood stream and increases the burden on the liver. It is also possible that the half-life of salicylates in the system is much increased in people with liver stagnation, poor bile emptying function. Skylark, you are the biologist amongst us... any clues on salicylate accumulation and half-life issues in celiac or other digestive diseases?

It is possible I suppose, that if gut health is improved the burden on the liver and other systems, particularly the kidneys is reduced, allowing them to both act at full capacity on conversion of and reducing chemical loads of compounds like salicylic acid... perhaps something for further study?! Will post more on the qualities of the above herbs when i have a moment.

Thank you Caroline for this comprehensive info. from your herbal studies.

This thing with the anti-lithics is very interesting. I would have thought that Barberry would also be liver decongesting. It does have other uses--it is also excellent against infections: viral, bacterial, fungal, microbial. Take note Skylark! Not everyone can handle it however. It is extremely bitter. My friend Graeme with celiac and latent rheumatoid arthritis cannot handle it or Burdock for instance. He also has thyroid problems even though he no longer has the markers for Hashimotos. Interesting, eh? He does take Dandelion regularly and is seeing a Naturopath. I think I will suggest this test to the both of them. He tends to have gut dysbiosis. Currently he is back on grapefruit seed extract to kill off his seemingly intractible infection (klebsiella pneumoniae).

As far as the Salicylate condition goes, as I reported previously, both Nettles and Golden Seal are often used as an antidote.

What does this imply?? Caroline you could be right--the liver and gall bladder seem to be implicated if, by nothing else, what these herbs do. I do not know if all people with Salicylate Sensitivity have celiac, however I do suspect that many are gluten sensitive at the very least. Many don't want to deal with it since their sals condition already is so overwhelming. They seem to miss how important avoiding gluten is to many of these conditions. Nevertheless, Salicylate Sensitive people do tend to have Leaky Gut Syndrome. Go figure...

Again about the Salicylate accumulation. I do wonder about that. At age three I remember thinking eating green apples gave me bruises. I did not take aspirin or any herbs. Basically at that time I was very healthy. I avoided getting the whooping cough everyone else had for instance. I was at that time off most gluten ( I was not reintroduced to it until a year later). Of course I climbed the apple tree to get at the apples and was also eating the raspberries from the bush nearby--both full of salicylates. Nevertheless, two summers ago (at age 60) I really couldn't sleep plus my itchy b%$@#y eczema was through the roof. We had a wonderful garden full of tomatoes, peppers, basil, cucumbers, oregano, zucchini, dill, thyme, marjoram, chamomile, rosemary etc. All chock full of salicylates. I was in fact eating mostly the SCD diet and thus made all kinds of zucchini/sunflower pancakes etc as well as zuke/tomato/beet/pepper/oregano/basil/thyme etc. stews and drinking loads of peppermint tea and passion flower tea at night like mad (the passion flower to help me sleep though honestly it didn't really help much except to make me both jumpy and groggy--an accomplishment of sorts, eh?). I think the one good thing I did for myself was making and eating the 24 hour yogurt (thus free of lactose) which I relied on as a staple.

The ironies of life, eh? Many with salicylate sensitivity discover what is good for most people often is not good for them--i.e., many basic fruits and veggies.

[CR5442]

Hi Bea, very briefly as we are off for lectures very shortly. sorry for missing out Marshmallow root, interestingly we are doing this in class on the digestive system tomorrow... so I will be sure to ask some pointed questions. I think it was left off the list because i didn't see it in the anti-lithics and LC's - so you are right, it is an oddball. It does have some properties similar to Slippery elm though, as in protective and restorative to the lining of the bowel. I'll let you know when we've had the lecture.

Re. rosemary, sorry, that crept in because i've been using it and just wanted to put the whole list of what we had both been taking together... hence the milk thistle too. Sorry the research is very cursory as I've been finishing off an analysis of one herb for an essay. Will try to add more on the immune system issues later

Immune system enhancers are Flower pollen, Microalgae, wheatgrass (??!!), watercress, Kelp Thallus (I'm seeing a T something theme here!), Bladderwrack Thallus, Suma Root.

Immune system stimulants are: Echinacea (no surprise there!), Wild indigo root, Marigold flower, plantain leaf, Purslane herb, Usnea Thallus, Lemon Rind and oil (limonene?), Asian Buplever Root, Yellow Jessamine Root.

Interesting that none of our herbs in the list appear here. Also it would be interesting to look at the compound differences between the two groups... perhaps there is a particular set of compounds that work on one or the other T groups.

Very rushed, sorry. Will get back here later!