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  1. No, we are not capable of testing for 0% at a reasonable cost - or at all - technologically or scientifically. There is not instrumentation to do it. Logically, you cannot prove a negative, and you're asking scientific instruments to do this. The products that you see currently labeled gluten free are not tested and proven to be free of any possible trace of gluten.

    This is not true - logically you can prove a negative. Peanut testing is a great example. If it doesn't contain ANY peanuts of any kind or derivative, it's peanut-free, if it contains traces of peanuts - it says so - "May contain traces of peanuts". As for products currently on the market claiming to be gluten-free - goodwill and lawsuits have held them in check. It's only since the recent explosion of the gluten-free market that there has been this drive to define "gluten-free" as something less than gluten-free - the "big-boys" want to cash in but not assume any liability. Those companies that can't take that risk shouldn't. Those companies that can't be held to that standard (0% percent gluten) should be liable. If it's not possible to test at that level as you claim, then the ingredients should state - may contain gluten at 20ppm - not "gluten-free". You've been brainwashed or work for the food industry or both.

    The arsenic example is a good one. There are limits to how little arsenic can be detected in a sample of water, due to both sample size and accuracy of the instrumentation itself. The reason that water will never be promoted as arsenic-free is that it is a naturally occurring substance that has always been, and will always be, in water, and only at certain doses is it toxic.

    The reason that water is not promoted as arsenic-free is because it isn't. While it is a naturally occurring substance, we as a species also contribute to its production. As to it's toxicity "only at certain doses" - well, I suppose you'd say it depends on where you live (China for example) and the testing instrumentation available as to whether it was toxic or not.

    Beyond this, it's important to note that there are two issues at play:

    1. the technological limitations both current and theoretic

    2. the legal limitations (that are partially driven by market limitations)

    These are both separate and intertwined when it comes to making and enforcing policy.

    Perhaps you misunderstood the point I was making. Our lawmakers, our regulators, and even our medical community can only deal with real data. Anecdotal evidence, which is not supported by scientific study, will play no part in a formalized decision making process for a large number of people, because it is not scientifically sound. That is not to say it is wrong; it merely says it is unsupported.

    The 20 ppm "gluten-free" standard, without any sort of additional information - "may contain traces of gluten", etc., will wreak havoc on the gluten-free market. I can't tell you how many times I've seen this same Rice Dream question over the last 10 years... just read the responses on this one. Rice Dream gets a resounding "thumbs-down" (at the proposed legal limit 20 ppm) from the majority of writers, and some still seem confused, etc (I guess that's your market, huh?). Now multiply that by all of the new products that will come out once that 20ppm comes into being. You're going to have lots of sick and pissed off people. You're going to have people that think that they're following a gluten-free diet when they aren't. It's all going to make things more confusing than they already are and there will be a backlash and there will be lawsuits. I suppose that is when the "real data" you mention above will come in... along with a great deal of unnecessary pain and suffering.

    I actually have not voiced my personal opinion on this board on the matter in nearly a year, but have merely tried to help explain how the policy is going to be set. Policy is never set for the tail cases - on either end of the distribution, when it's not specifically about that. It's vital that we remember the context of the decisions being made, they are far beyond each of us individually.

    Indeed! Read all of these responses from all of these folks.

  2. It makes sense because there are physical limits to how little of something can be detected. In order to have a federal regulation on food labeling, you have to be able to 'prove' your claim. In order to prove your claim, you have to measure it. All instruments that measure physical things have a lower limit of resolution, and right now, that's about what we're looking at.

    20ppm??? That's a joke. We're capable of testing for 0% at a reasonable cost - why do you think are so many products now that are truly gluten-free??? "Gluten-free" should mean "Gluten-free". Your argument is like saying that your drinking water is "Arsenic-free" and labelled as such - it isn't and in the US your water company will provide you with the average amount of arsenic in your water - however they don't promote it as arsenic-free!

    Is it great for all celiacs? No. Medical testing suggests that it is perfectly fine (no villous atrophy) for the vast majority, however. Combining that with the fact that lower levels can't be well tested for under reasonable cost, it's not unreasonable, even though it's a pain for celiacs who find themselves extremely sensitive, or who consume many such "less than 20ppm gluten" products every day.

    Medical testing suggests a whole lot of things about celiac disease - one of them being that villous atrophy does not have to occur to suffer organ damage. I can't tell you how many times over the years I've read about the "Rice Dream" thing (20ppm by the way) and sick babies, and adults who thought the product was "gluten-free". Now there's going to be lots more of this. To condone this with your backward logic is a spineless argument.

  3. Rice Dream has been playing this little game for years and has made countless people sick. They use to list their ingredients in one place and then put that it may contain 20 ppm gluten elsewhere on the box. They have received complaints about this for years.

    I'll never purchase another product from them.

    Also, 20 ppm is about to become the US standard for "Gluten-Free" - so it won't matter whether they test .002% - it will still be "gluten-free". If you're really sensitive to gluten as I am - you won't know what gluten-free products are truly gluten-free - I know it doesn't make sense.

    PS - the Gluten-free Mall supports this labeling by the way, so they can sell more products (make more products available as they put it)

  4. In my opinion there is no "norm" for celiac disease, but in my experience your body's response is not unusual. My reaction to gluten is similiar and became much more severe after going gluten-free, also developed several other food allergies. Depression is also one of the reactions I experience during/after a gluten poisoning. I've got about a two week recovery period and have found that lots of sleep assists me in recovery after an accidental poisoning - it might help you too. Hang in there.

  5. Thanks everyone, and power to those who can tolerate Redbridge. As I said before I applaud Anheuser-Busch for its efforts to create a gluten-free beer. I like the beer, but it made me sick so I thought I'd post to see if others had similar reactions.

    I think gfp has good insight into how a large company might tackle this new product, and am a little surprised at the auto-acceptance of Anheuser-Busch's claim of being gluten-free by others (noted in these posts). Afterall, the term isn't legally defined as of yet. And, as most of us know there is a continium of gluten-intolerance. Some people for example can drink the original Rice Dream with no more than 20 ppm gluten; I can't - it makes me sick - gluten-sick. In the future, if the FDA's proposed guidelines are made into law, Rice Dream with 20 ppm gluten will be labelled as a "gluten-free" product. Maybe that's what Anheuser-Busch means by gluten-free as well. Surely, we must as a community speculate, investigate, and know these things.

    I'll let you all know the results when I get them. It's of course possible that I'm wrong about the gluten contamination as I have many sensitivities - but it sure did have all of the trademarks of gluten-sickness, foggy head, bloating, smelly diarrhea for days, and DH. PS - Larry, I'm a diagnosed Celiac with DH and have 10 years of gluten-free experience.

    In the meantime I invite all of you to call Anheuser-Busch at 1-800-DIAL-BUD (1-800-342-5283), ask them if the beer is "gluten-free" (and what that means), ask them if it's made on dedicated machinery (and what that means). If they say it's gluten-free and made on dedicated machinery - request that they send you that in writing - because it's not on their packaging as it is on many products that cater to our community (including other gluten-free beers). Please let us know their answers -

    Also for your reference - brewing beer (as gfp pointed out) is a process that has many possible ways that contamination can occur (especially for a large company like Anheuser-Busch). In my opinion our job as a community is to demand that gluten-free means gluten-free. Somebody needs to make a T-Shirt :rolleyes: Gluten-Free Means Gluten-Free!


    6) How can we be sure that your beer is gluten free?

    A: We don

  6. I've had a chance to sample Redbridge. Had a few beers a couple of times and got sick. Emailed them and asked if the product was "gluten-free" as they claimed.

    Their response was that it was "illegal" to actually label the beer "gluten-free" as the government has yet to determine what the term means... (proposed 20 ppm). Interesting as Bard's Pale Ale labels each bottle as gluten-free and I've had no reaction to it. They also told me that Redbridge was made on equipment used to create other beers after it was washed. They are sending me a kit to return the product for testing.

    I'm very happy to have a beer to drink and I applaud The National Foundation for Celiac Awareness, Anheuser-Busch, and the makers of Bard's Pale Ale (seemingly a true gluten-free product - and the beer of my choice at this time), and other up and coming gluten-free food creators for their efforts, but I am very alarmed that gluten-free will not actually mean gluten-free (Rice Dream for example is 20 ppm gluten - they would be able to say that their product is a gluten-free product). This will really make things even more confusing for people/families trying to cope with gluten intolerance.

  7. "Does celiac cause lactose intolerance? Or does dairy just aggravate (some? all?) people's systems while they heal? I currently consume a ton of dairy--think 6-8 glasses of milk a day plus cheese, etc. and I don't *think* it's making me sick, but..."

    Milk casin (a protein in milk) is also an issue with many celiacs.

    If you are considering an elimination diet - where you eliminate all foods that you *think* you might be reacting to - top food allergens and intolerances - gluten, milk, eggs, nuts, fish/shellfish, and soy (for your reference).

    Stop eating these foods for a month or two and see if you feel better. Add these foods back into your diet one at a time and see how you feel. Then work from there.

    Beware: It not as easy as it sounds - these foods (those listed above) are hidden in all sorts of products so read labels carefully.

    Enjoy! :rolleyes:

    Nice to meet you.

  8. Can over eating gluten free foods affect the same as eating gluten foods?

    I was thrilled to have gluten free spagetti and got carried away and kinda over ate.

    If you mean that you feel symptoms similar to eating gluten even though you've eaten a truly gluten-free product (0% gluten), it may be possible.

    I've had similar experiences. My theory is that since the permability of the small intestine is often compromised in those with celiac disease (and compromised during their healing process), it makes sense that over eating may stress this recovering system and result in partially digested foods, proteins, etc, improper entrance into the bloodstream. And so, the body reacts, launches an auto-immune response, much like a response to gluten.