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      Frequently Asked Questions About Celiac Disease   04/24/2018

      This Celiac.com FAQ on celiac disease will guide you to all of the basic information you will need to know about the disease, its diagnosis, testing methods, a gluten-free diet, etc.   Subscribe to Celiac.com's FREE weekly eNewsletter   What is Celiac Disease and the Gluten-Free Diet? What are the major symptoms of celiac disease? Celiac Disease Symptoms What testing is available for celiac disease?  Celiac Disease Screening Interpretation of Celiac Disease Blood Test Results Can I be tested even though I am eating gluten free? How long must gluten be taken for the serological tests to be meaningful? The Gluten-Free Diet 101 - A Beginner's Guide to Going Gluten-Free Is celiac inherited? Should my children be tested? Ten Facts About Celiac Disease Genetic Testing Is there a link between celiac and other autoimmune diseases? Celiac Disease Research: Associated Diseases and Disorders Is there a list of gluten foods to avoid? Unsafe Gluten-Free Food List (Unsafe Ingredients) Is there a list of gluten free foods? Safe Gluten-Free Food List (Safe Ingredients) Gluten-Free Alcoholic Beverages Distilled Spirits (Grain Alcohols) and Vinegar: Are they Gluten-Free? Where does gluten hide? Additional Things to Beware of to Maintain a 100% Gluten-Free Diet What if my doctor won't listen to me? An Open Letter to Skeptical Health Care Practitioners Gluten-Free recipes: Gluten-Free Recipes
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Mat82

gluten free, detox, mood, supplements

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Hi Guys, 

Im new here, and been gluten free for just over 6 months, so im still learning alot.

heres some background info: I have suffered with bad anxiety, depression, and brain fog (as well as some other stuff) for over 15years, probably longer but it wasnt as bad so i could manage it . I tried different types of medications from doctors but they didnt really work.

I went and saw a naturopath about 6 months ago and he put me on a gluten free diet as well as giving me metagenics neurocalm, glutagenics, ultra flora digest, and a probiotic ultraflora digest immune control, he has interchanged the probiotic with another one, but i cant remember what it was called. Anyway i started feeling really good, and was improving more and more every week. About 4 weeks ago the naturopath decided to do a part detox on me which was silver and aloe vera juice. I stopped my medication while i did the detox apart from the probiotic. All my symptoms came back a little bit but i just thought it was from the detox. I have now been finished my detox for a couple of weeks and back on all my supplements and now i feel like im back where i started. im anxious, depressed, no energy, foggy brain etc. 

Has anyone else been through this, Does anyone have any thoughts on what is going on, any solutions etc?

Any help would be appreciated, as i cant go back to the way i felt, especially when i know how good i can feel

Thanks

Mat

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4 hours ago, Mat82 said:

Hi Guys, 

Im new here, and been gluten free for just over 6 months, so im still learning alot.

heres some background info: I have suffered with bad anxiety, depression, and brain fog (as well as some other stuff) for over 15years, probably longer but it wasnt as bad so i could manage it . I tried different types of medications from doctors but they didnt really work.

I went and saw a naturopath about 6 months ago and he put me on a gluten free diet as well as giving me metagenics neurocalm, glutagenics, ultra flora digest, and a probiotic ultraflora digest immune control, he has interchanged the probiotic with another one, but i cant remember what it was called. Anyway i started feeling really good, and was improving more and more every week. About 4 weeks ago the naturopath decided to do a part detox on me which was silver and aloe vera juice. I stopped my medication while i did the detox apart from the probiotic. All my symptoms came back a little bit but i just thought it was from the detox. I have now been finished my detox for a couple of weeks and back on all my supplements and now i feel like im back where i started. im anxious, depressed, no energy, foggy brain etc. 

Has anyone else been through this, Does anyone have any thoughts on what is going on, any solutions etc?

Any help would be appreciated, as i cant go back to the way i felt, especially when i know how good i can feel

Thanks

Mat

Sounds like you haven't seen an actual doctor and gotten tested for Celiac before going gluten free?  

Sounds like you are spending a lot  of money for this stuff.

Edited by kareng

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I very much understand going to alternative practitioners particularly if allopathic avenues tried previously have not worked. Karen g is suggesting you get formal testing to confirm celiac/ncgs status. 

I am glad the practitioner is providing relief /comfort , and I understand a supplement or two for protocol. I do get  concerned when those numbers increase in products suggested.  Ideally it should be mostly food based nutritional support with a few supplements for deficiencies or a multi to support the regular diet. 

It is very possible that your alternative practitioner is onto your problem. I spent years having more symptom relief and better health with a DC . However I would suggest from the sake of this illness that you also take the knowledge you have discovered with the current practitioner and ask an allopathic physician to test for celiac/ncgs. During my 2016 diagnosis process my own team told me accupuncture sometimes helped ease symptoms for previous patients.

Yes one can get a flood of " memory lane " symptoms with a celiac flare or with alternative treatment. It can be hard to rule out which is which it comes with experience and mind/body self awareness knowledge. Naturopathic Dr' s can stir things up as they are treating, but often times you must communicate reactions /experiences so they know pros and cons to tailor treatment. Sounds the most recent step was too strong/too much. It should be gently and positively moving you along not exacerbating the bad.

In my opinion the symptoms are back strongly consider testing for celiac with a celiac hospital/clinic and then let them know you use alternative practitioners for symptom management. For testing they'll need you back on gluten. I know what I'm asking you to do is huge because I've done just that myself.

This is not an easy path, nor easy illness, you had a glimmer it's the right path when you went gluten-free, you likely have had this longer than you realize, do you have kids? Family? I never thought I'd do testing once gluten-free,  but through an error by a restaurant I got badly exposed to gluten and at that point went for testing for my kids. It was a good thing for my son also has my issues and my daughter will always be aware of her genetic potential. I'm still working on my dad and my brother who I very much worry about as I believe they may have celiac.

Sometimes our path unfolds not as we want, but as it's destined.  The alternative Dr clued you in now take that knowledge rule in or out celiac by testing . Lastly the alternative Dr can be great comfort, but celiac can be on two fronts. You need it all in your arsenal. I have a very allopathic medicine based family so my alternative practices often are disregarded I find  with celiac both are helpful.

Lastly, I wanted my allopathic medical record to have connected dots celiac explains it , but I had decades of celiac symptoms bundled and diagnosed as other illness. This finally puts it together for my offspring and future Dr s. My alternatives help a lot , but I focus on treatment not the supplemental products.

It will be a long journey to diagnose and heal you had a glimmer of it so ....

Good luck 

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6 hours ago, Mat82 said:

Has anyone else been through this, Does anyone have any thoughts on what is going on, any solutions etc?

Any help would be appreciated, as i cant go back to the way i felt, especially when i know how good i can feel

What do you typically eat in a day? I’m wondering if nutritional deficiencies could be the problem..

As for the anxiety/depression/brain fog/lack of energy - these issues can be confusing because they can be either symptoms of health conditions or withdrawal/detox side effects. For example, brain fog was a gluten intolerance symptom for me and then after I went gluten free, it was a gluten withdrawal symptom. I think the same applies to quitting caffeine, sugar, etc. How strict was the detox program?

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Welcome.  Anxiety, depression and brain fog can certainly be part of the Celiac spectrum of issues.   You could have gotten glutened and be dealing with that and it can take some time for those neuro symptoms to resolve after you have been glutened.  Do check out the Newbie 101 thread at the top of the Coping section to make sure that you are strictly gluten free.  Be sure to check any medications or supplements to be certain they are gluten free.  One of my worst glutenings in the beginning was from a naturopathic medication.

I don't think it is unusual for us to not respond to the typical drugs that are given for things like depression. They can at times make things worse. They did for members of my family anyway. I think it is because the drugs are treating for something caused by one thing when our issues are caused by the antibody reaction not something like a serotonin imbalance.

It would be a good idea to get tested for celiac but you would need to go back on gluten for a couple months to do so.  Whether you choose to get tested or not we are here to help in any way we can.

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Thanks for the replies

I have not done a celiac test, i didnt even know it was a thing until 6 months ago. i have been diagnosed by the doctor with social anxiety and adhd inattentive, all they want to do is give me drugs, the last one i had made me want to kill myself. I live in a small country town in Australia, i think ive seen every doctor here over the last 10yrs trying to get help and not one of them helped me :( 

Yes it is costing alot of money, but i was feeling so good that he could have had all my money, just this set back has got me a bit worried, as im scared of going back to how i was.

I have children, one of them is exactly like me, she has been diagnosed with mild autism, we try to get her to eat gluten free but she is very hard as she only likes certain things, so she is a work in progress. My sister is seeing the naturopath too after she saw how well i was doing, she has hoshimoto disease but the doctor never tested her for celiac or gluten intolerence either. My mum is similar, but she seems to manage so she hasnt done anything about it.

I thought i didnt have celiac because i dont feel nausea or vomiting, and my wife said that you feel really sick if you eat gluten, but i only get some pains in my stomach and mostly mental problems, is this right or can it affect people differently?

In a day i normally eat watermelon, banana, apple, yoghurt and nuts for breakfast

lettuce, cheese, cucumber, tomato, avocado, beetroot and either ham salmon or chicken with it for lunch

dinner is normally some sort of meat and vegetables

occasionally i will have gluten free cereal or gluten free bread if im in a hurry that day

the detox was literally silver and aloe vera juice, i didnt change anything else except the supplements

I would like to get tested, so i know whats going on, and it would be good to have a doctor that can help me and suport me. 

So the best thing for me to do would be to eat gluten, then go to the doctor and ask for a celiac/ncgs test?

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738337/

This article examines how vitamin deficiencies contribute to one's mental health.  

Celiac Disease causes malabsorption which results in malnutrition.  Even if you don't have horrible gastrointestinal problems, you can still be deficient in vitamins and minerals.  

Some chemical messengers used in the brain, like serotonin, are made in the gut.  Intestinal bacteria help make certain vitamins available for absorption.  If your intestinal flora are messed up (maybe by that silver aloe cleanse), it may take some time to reestablish that beneficial bacteria again.  

https://www.celiac.com/articles/24743/1/What-Causes-Villus-Atrophy-in-Symptomatic-Celiac-Patients-on-a-Gluten-free-Diet/Page1.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28220520

These are articles that look at how some antidepressants might cause problems for Celiacs.  

I was prescribed a variety of  antidepressants and they only made me worse.  Turned out I had serious vitamin deficiencies.  Once the vitamin deficiencies were addressed, I felt much better and did not need the antidepressants.  The root of the problem needed to be addressed.  Covering up the symptoms with more antidepressant medications doesn't work.  

Perhaps having your doctor check for vitamin and mineral deficiencies for you and your daughter would be beneficial.  Supplementation may be necessary until you're healed enough to absorb nutrients.  

Hope this helps.

K

P.S. Omit dairy from your diet for a while.  Celiacs may become lactose intolerant during a flare up.

Edited by knitty kitty
Added postscript

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G'day Matt (couldn't resist it).

22 hours ago, Mat82 said:

Has anyone else been through this,

Yes, my story is similar. I had all sorts of prescriptions over the years and nothing worked particularly well until a few years ago I changed my diet and the brain fog lifted and my mood began to lighten. It was a revelation and once I knew I could feel that way I never wanted to go back. 

23 hours ago, Mat82 said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on what is going on, any solutions etc?

It's a little complicated by the range of treatments from the naturopath, supplements and detox etc. If you make several changes at once then it's difficult to pin down one as a cause.

My first suggestion is to do a little research. It's very good news that you found this site, it's a helpful community and there's lots of knowledge here. You'll find a forum faq above and I collected some Q&A's awhile ago in this post:  https://www.celiac.com/gluten-free/topic/115138-suggestion-faq-intro-post-for-the-diagnosis-board-input-requested/?do=findComment&comment=970127 try reading through, following a couple of the links and you'll feel better once you have a better grasp of this. 

 

Second, start to keep a food / mood diary! Note what you eat and when and how you're feeling at that point. Note any health related things you notice. Skin rash etc. This can really help you tie down anything which may be affecting your mood/health. You may have more than one issue, eg dairy.

9 hours ago, Mat82 said:

my wife said that you feel really sick if you eat gluten, but i only get some pains in my stomach and mostly mental problems, is this right or can it affect people differently?

No this isn't right. Celiac and gluten sensitivity can affect people in a lot of different ways.  See link above. 

9 hours ago, Mat82 said:

I would like to get tested, so i know whats going on, and it would be good to have a doctor that can help me and suport me. 

So the best thing for me to do would be to eat gluten, then go to the doctor and ask for a celiac/ncgs test?

Ok, testing would need you back on gluten for a 'challenge'. This is so your body can develop the antibodies picked up by the test. You would have to be back on for 8-12 weeks depending on what the doctor says. Be warned, this can be rough. You may find you react worse to reintroducing it than you ever did before. 

First step is to find a doctor that understands celiac. Maybe you need either a referral or just google to see if there's any doctors in your area that specialise? I've driven through rural Oz so I realise you may not have a big choice! If you see them and they want to test you can then start eating gluten again. 

Finally, you may have a problem with gluten but test negative for celiac. I did. So think in advance of what you want from the test and what you'll do with the info. For me, testing negative was difficult to take, but I did manage via the challenge to confirm that gluten was a big problem for me and the Doc told me to avoid it as if I'd tested positive for celiac. This is NCGS, there's no test for it, it's what you wind up with if you find gluten is a problem but you test negative for celiac. It didn't make much difference ultimately, I was gluten free for life regardless once I did the challenge. 

Best of luck!

Matt

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13 minutes ago, Jmg said:

G'day Matt (couldn't resist it).

:)

9 hours ago, Mat82 said:

I would like to get tested, so i know whats going on, and it would be good to have a doctor that can help me and suport me. 

So the best thing for me to do would be to eat gluten, then go to the doctor and ask for a celiac/ncgs test?

Matt has given good advice. I'd like to add one more thing: some celiacs are seronegative so the blood tests are not 'perfect'. I tested negative for celiac but didn't have an endoscopy/biopsy so I can be either a ncgs or a seronegative celiac. The important thing is my symptoms have improved so much on the gluten free diet that this is a proof that I do have a problem with gluten and have to avoid it.

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Thanks everyone for your replies, ill do some more reading so i understand it all a bit better and then decide where to go from there

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    • You could very well have celiac disease, but there are 200 symptoms attributed to celiac disease and those often overlap with other illnesses.  You could get tested, but all celiac testing requires you to be on a full gluten diet for 8 to 12 weeks prior to a blood draw (it can take time for antibodies to ramp up and spill into the bloodstream).    You have been off for a month and it is possible that you could have healed.   Consider getting back on gluten and get tested.  Since you have Gastritis, maybe you can get a GI referral and an endoscopy to biopsy the stomach and the small intestine.  Only two weeks on a gluten diet is required for that procedure.      Learn more about testing: http://www.cureceliacdisease.org/screening/  
    • I'm a 30 year old female. All of my life I've had extreme bloating after eating. About 4 years ago I started having upper stomach pain. It's dead center below my rib cage where the diaphragm is located. As the years have passed the pain became more intense and more frequent until it was daily and affecting my ability to function. I had 2 drs say it was gastritis but prilosec did nothing to help. My head got to where it always hurt and I was exhausted constantly. If the pain and head fog wasn't already enough my joints started to hurt and swell making it hard to get out of bed. I'm 4ft 11 inches and was 130 pounds and my blood pressure was staying 160/105. I've always suffered with spells of constipation then episodes of D. I was getting mouth sores and had random rashes and itching mostly on my legs. I've also suffered anemia. When my stomach pain is at its worst I have foul smelling stools. All my liver and pancreas testing have come back normal. I tested negative for h pylori but am currently on carafate for ulcers. I'm going for another gallbladder ultrasound in 3 days as 9 years ago the ultrasound showed sludge so the dr is wanting to recheck. I've done research for a while now on gluten and have cut it out for over a month. I have noticed a significant improvement since stopping it and only have flare ups if I accidently consume gluten. So my question is does this sound like anything you've experienced and been positive for celiac? I also have numbness and tingling in my feet and hands 
    • Welcome!   With a sister who has celiac disease, you are at a much higher risk of developing it.  I would go for the complete 12 weeks.  Why?  Because doctors recommend anywhere from six to 12 weeks for the blood tests, but there has not been many long term studies to back up the claims.  Best to play it safe.  It sounds like you are not suffering too much (I had no GI symptoms and just anemia when I was diagnosed).  Ask your PCP to run the full panel, including  the DGP and EMA tests.  Why?  Not all celiacs test positive to the TTG, like me!  If your Kaiser doc refuses, please ask if you can be referred to a GI and select one who handles celiac patients.  Some celiacs are even seronegative!  In that case, going to an endoscopy is necessary.  Keep in mind that you might just be developing it or know that if everything negative now, you can still develop it in the future.  First-degree relatives should get tested every few years even if there are no symptoms.   What if your PCP refuses even after you show him the printed data supporting your claims (and the ones I made...so hit Dr. Google)? Get to another PCP or put your request in writing  via the patient portal or a registered letter.  Be nice.  Support your claims.  Ask for the full panel or to be referred to a GI.  In writing, they have to respond.   I do know that the TTG catches most celiacs, but not all.  If celiac disease is still suspected, you should move to the next series of celiac tests.  Unfortunately, to keep costs down, Kaiser just orders the TTG for initial screening.  You have to get around that.  I found that out when family  went in for testing and they had Kaiser.   Advocate for your health!  Document!  Save and print all test results and maintain file.   Take care!  
    • hi All, I had been getting so gradually sick that I don't know when it started, (but I am now assuming 1994).  In 2008, I succumbed to pressure from my insurance rep to get more insurance, and they would even come to my house to test my blood.  I was denied insurance and recommended to see my doctor, who told me I had the liver of a severe alcoholic.  I very rarely drink. I went for tests and the doctor was baffled.  He said I should lose weight.  He said it was likely fatty liver disease. That was 2008.  For the next few years I got tests, tried to eat healthy, and every so often I would see if it was helping my liver numbers. I got stomach aches when I ate toast or a sandwich, but didnt link it to the toast except later, in hindsight.  How could toast give me a stomach ache?  Anyway, on the advice of my doctor, I tried very hard to lose weight, so went lo-carb.  One day, I had had no breakfast and at church 'goodie-time' was unable to resist all the carbs.  Later that afternoon, I felt like someone had literally poisoned me. This was now 2011.  I decided to not eat or drink anything but almonds and organic cold pressed  apple juice in a glass jar, and ate only those things for the next 3-4 days while I looked for symptoms on the Internet. I narrowed it down to celiac disease and went to the doctor.  I refused to eat gluten to get the test.  I decided not to eat gluten and I got better. I then started a job in China.  I learned how to say things like "no soy sauce" since it's made from wheat.  I got so much better.  I knew what my reactions were to gluten, especially the one that happened first: I would get a shakiness inside, like my blood system was micro-vibrating. i got the flu and was in bed for three days straight eating only mandarin oranges and water.  After a couple of days, I got that shakiness, suddenly, lying in bed.  I was astounded, cause I had only water and oranges.  Then I remembered that I had taken two Advil, in the gel cap form.  I looked on the Internet, and sure enough, the gel caps contained gluten.  Wow.  Even that small amount in two gel caps set it off. I was very vigilant.  Then one day, back in Canada, I was making hot dogs for a four-year-old and I had fresh bakery buns.  I couldn't resist.  I guess I thought, well, it's been a couple of years gluten free, let's see what happens.  I ate one and a half huge bakery hot dog buns on impulse.  Big mistake. I got so, so sick.  I was sick for 6 weeks with various symptoms.  Spleen pain, liver pain, kidney pain, migraine headaches, stomach issues, constipation, dizziness, brain fog, irritability, etc.  This was 2013. After one week of still being sick, I thought it's probably too late, but I should get that celiac test to see if there are detectable antibodies.  I went to the doctor, who didn't think it was necessary and insisted it was fatty liver disease and not celiac.  He humoured me and gave me the requisition anyway.  It wasn't too late!  One week later. i was shocked to see that my antibody level was 99. ( If you have less than 20 you don't have Celiac. It is called tTg test).  If you have 100, they say you don't really need a biopsy and it's pretty much confirmed celiac.  The doctor was a little bit embarrassed and said, "looks like you've diagnosed yourself". So finally he shut up about fatty liver disease.   I got so much better living in China.  I occasionally slipped. I  then went back to canada for a year.  I developed DH, as I got these lesions starting on my thumb and then on my fingers and palms.  Finally after 6 months I cut out dairy.  I had heard it was also somehow bad for Celiacs from the Internet but I really didn't want to cut out dairy as it was bad enough without gluten.  I finally did and the DH cleared up.   Then back to China.  I would go back to Canada twice a year for the time off from spring and summer holidays.  It was really hard to be around western food temptations and I would get "glutened" even though I tried hard. I began to get a strange pain in my leg and the doctor in canada said it was likely arthritis in my hip.  i went for an xray but it didnt show anything.  it really killed me to get that pain in my leg and then in my hip.  i would cry out and have to sit down.  i started riding my bike to work in china cause it was painful to walk very far.  I had started to reintroduce dairy while in China and found that I could eat yogurt, which I love. I had heard that people blamed their gluten reactions on Roundup, or glyphosate, because they could eat flour products in other countries but not North America.  One day about six months ago I made cookies for my students.  I wore gloves and was very careful.  Before this, I wouldn't even be in the same room with flour.  But nothing happened.  Then I tasted a cookie.  Nothing happened!!  The next day, I ate a whole cookie. Nothing happened!!  I began to think there was something to the theory of North America and roundup.  I still avoided flour in general cause I didn't want to push it, but I started eating soy sauce and relaxed a bit - started going to restaurants in china, etc. instead of micromanaging food in my kitchen, cause I was evidently not reacting to gluten in China.  I then realized that the only episodes of pain I had had were when I was in Canada the previous summer and spring.  Very strange.  So.  I got back to Canada, last spring, had my usual gluten free meal on the airplane, and then visited my mother.  I ate only organic yogurt.  Nothing else, and a few hours later I was attacked by almost every gluten related pain I had ever had.  My hip was suddenly shooting pain and I cried out and limped to the couch.  My mother asked, what did you eat?  I said, nothing!  Only organic yogurt!   Of course after any glutening, it takes weeks for these pains to subside, and I endured pain stabs in my spleen for a while.  Then back to China, where I was able to eat normally.  No pains, nothing.  I ate yogurt, made myself with uht milk imported from Germany or Australia, and I was fine.     Until the day when I ate one of the chocolate bars I had brought from Canada as prizes for my students.  Instant reaction! Spleen pain!  I had heard that sugar cane was as bad as flour for being drenched in roundup.  Now I was convinced. It was definitely stuff from Canada that was the culprit.  Only farm products.  Yes, they say the yogurt is organic, but I'm sure they feed the milk cows hay that has been exposed to roundup.   Now I know exactly what I can eat and where.  I love the food here, and it's safe.  There are exceptions.  They use pesticides on fruit, cause I get a stomach ache when I eat certain fruits, but it's a different reaction that the gluten reaction,  I can eat flour products without a huge reaction, but I still have celiac, because I do get reactions even from Chinese flour, just not as bad as I did before.  A mild sick feeling, like something is off, kind of unbalanced, and of course the inevitable shakiness.  I react much worse to Canadian chocolate.  But there is a huge difference between food here and food there.  A very painful difference.  Hard to figure out, but I think I have. so here's my theory,  roundup actually causes the celiac disease, or whatever disease you might happen to be genetically susceptible to. (My uncle has arthritis in his hip). If you keep ingesting it, you will get gradually sicker and sicker and get some kind of disease.  If you stop eating roundup completely, you will heal with a healthy diet.  If you already have a disease like celiac or DH you can manage it and stay healthy if you are totally roundup free. My dad died of nonHodgkins lymphoma and he insisted it was the roundup the neighbor had been spraying on his farm, right next to my dads organic hobby farm.  Now I believe him. I wish I'd been able to piece this together a bit earlier.  Since 1994, many diseases have hugely increased.  That's when they started with the roundup and there is a one on one correspondence on the graphs with roundup use and  many diseases. sorry for the novel but I just can't keep this all to myself,  I'm like the canary in the mine.  But roundup is everywhere so I don't know if you can really avoid it in North America, sadly. My advice is to move elsewhere and figure it out like I did. i saw a youtube video by an MIT researcher that they are now figuring out that glyphosate actually takes up the place of the essential amino acid glycine in your body.  Because they are molecularly similar, glyphosate gets in there and stops glycine from being able to do it's job in your body.  So it causes all sorts of problems in a gradual way and eventually you will have trouble. i hope this helps!  Stay away from farm products!  I hope it's not true what the conspiracy theorists say (that they are spraying chemicals, chemtrails etc.  I don't know if they are spraying roundup) but if it is, that's the end of the world as we know it.  I don't really want to go there,  I just know what I know and I'm sharing it.   this is just the short version  but I've tried to include important info.  Anyone else have a similar story in any way?
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