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Lymetoo

What About The Eucharist?

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On the topic of wine. Red wine and shampagne (off topic I'm sure) can be problems for folks with Celiac or Gluten Intollerance and here's why I think it's an issue.

I was reading DogtorJ's article about pain, and he started to talk about MSGs and migrains. This got me thinking about my red wine / champagne related head aches. I ended up finding this article.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...ed_ExternalLink

Ok, I started wondering where Diamine oxidase was created or what it was and I found this...

http://www.annclinlabsci.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/3/155

Hmmm... produced in the gastrointestinal mucosal cells... And what area is damaged in our bodies when ingesting gluten. A ha!

Well, well well, look what else I found:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

More food for thought. :)

Thanks,

Mike

PS. I too am Catholic and haven't recieved Eucharist in some time. Red wine doesn't make me feel well either. :( I'm guessing that God understands. :)

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If you watch the rite of communion, a small piece of the large host is broken off and added to the wine. also, any crumbs from the patten are brushed off and into the chalice. The church provides the chalice

This is why it's so important to have a second chalice. The reason I own my own chalice is because I am in situations (retreats, schools, homes, etc.) where the priest is there with his traveling Mass kit. If he only has one chalice, then there's nothing he can do for me. I do a lot of youth work, so I'm in this situation frequently. If it's your regular parish, you are right that they should have a spare chalice.

PS. I too am Catholic and haven't recieved Eucharist in some time. Red wine doesn't make me feel well either. :( I'm guessing that God understands. :)

White wine is perfectly acceptable for Mass. You could talk to your priest about it, or even provide enough for yourself and ask him to consecrate it at Mass. The only requirement is that it be made from grapes. I've yet to come across a priest who doesn't do all he can for his parishoners to receive communion.

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I'm Lutheran (Missouri Synod) and my Pastor has been very accomodating. I bought a box of gluten-free communion wafers from Ener-G.com. They look exactly like the regular wafers our church uses. I took the box to my Pastor and he consecrated them. I then take a wafer with me to church and take it up with me during communion and eat it before I take the wine. Our services alternate the chalice and individual cups. I have gotten sick from the chalice before since everyone usually dips their wafer in the wine, so I haven't drank from the cup since. I have to admit, I do feel uncomfortable and awkward still. I wish I could just take communion like everyone else.

I find it interesting that in the Catholic church that the bread is the body of the Lord and not a symbol. If this is the case, as is stated by the Vatican, then there should be no gluten in the wafer at all if it is strictly the body of the Lord, correct? Just a thought.

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If this is the case, as is stated by the Vatican, then there should be no gluten in the wafer at all if it is strictly the body of the Lord, correct? Just a thought.

This is an excellent point and one I've had a private discussion over with another Catholic on the board. It would seem that way, but that's not the case. We believe that it is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. Not like a piece of flesh cut off his person, rather his whole person. This is a mystery, which is why it doesn't make complete sense ... It remains under the appearance of bread, so it's still looks like bread, tastes like bread, and has the gluten like bread.

You can look over John chapter 6, then cross reference one of the Last Supper narratives and you'll see why the Catholic Church believes this ... not trying to start a religious debate, but just trying to show why it's still the appearance of bread and that it's a mystery believed by faith, but not opposed to reason. BTW, some of the Lutheran Churches believe this as well, as do some of the Methodist and Episcopal, and all of the Othodox.

Just a strange factiod, you know the words "hocus pocus", but do you know where they come from? Back when the Mass was in Latin, the part where the bread is consecrated and turns to the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord, the words said sound like hocus pocus. Since it was a "magical" moment of the Mass, the words came to mean something magical was happening.

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I would sit down with the Pastor and tell him the situation. I have my own chalice and ask the priest to consecrate some wine in it. He places it on the altar with his, then gives it to me instead of the host when I go up to receive. I have never had a priest refuse me yet!

I have been receiving from the priest's chalice with the small piece of Eucharist in it. I haven't felt any ill effects yet (like being glutened). and I am pretty sensitive. Do you think I could still be hurting myself?

I'm scared to make extra work for the priest. Also there are a ton of people of there before distribution, 2 priests, a decon, the lectionaries, and usually 3-4 Eucharistic ministers. Logistically how do you do it at your church? Do you come from a small parish?

Right now I go up with the Eucharistic ministers and stand around the altar and wait to receive. Our parish does not offer the wine to the rest of the congregation.

Mia

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I have been receiving from the priest's chalice with the small piece of Eucharist in it. I haven't felt any ill effects yet (like being glutened). and I am pretty sensitive. Do you think I could still be hurting myself?

I'm scared to make extra work for the priest. Also there are a ton of people of there before distribution, 2 priests, a decon, the lectionaries, and usually 3-4 Eucharistic ministers. Logistically how do you do it at your church? Do you come from a small parish?

Right now I go up with the Eucharistic ministers and stand around the altar and wait to receive. Our parish does not offer the wine to the rest of the congregation.

Mia

Ha, no we have 12,000 registered parishoners!! They do distribute the chalice, however, so I can receive from one without the host. At masses where there is only one chalice, I ask for a second one without the host in it, but that's usually a small Mass at a school, retreat center, etc. Usually the priest puts the crumbs in the cup, too, so I would worry about it. I can't believe it hasn't made you sick!! I would have been really sick from that!

I was at another large parish where they did not distribute the cup. The priest still had two, one for himself, and the one he distributed to the Eucharistic ministers. That might be an option to talk to your priest about. I didn't get to receive the day we visited that parish.

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PS. I too am Catholic and haven't recieved Eucharist in some time. Red wine doesn't make me feel well either. :( I'm guessing that God understands. :)

I imagine He does. Consider the teachings of Jesus and his disciples while He was here - to follow his path.. to treat your body as temple, to take care of the life you were given. Now imagine the Last Supper - and Jesus finds out there is celiac at His table. Now Jesus would know that any gluten would cause harm to the body of this person. Jesus offers the bread and says:

Take this all of you and eat it, this is my body which I have given up for you.

Do you think He would a) tell the person to leave if they cant eat the bread. B) Tell them they cannot be "complete" in their Christianity if they dont eat the bread c) force them to eat it if they want to go to Heaven d) embrace the celiac and tell him how wonderful it is that he has joined him at this last meal and that drinking the wine(Blood) alone is fine.

I vote for d... but I have never studied theology - it is my personal opinion only, my vision of a loving God

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I would be interested in hearing why you think that. My opinion is also based on feedback from Bishop Frederick Henry, our priest and the following information:

According to the Roman Catholic Church, when the bread and wine are consecrated in the Eucharist, they cease to be bread and wine, and become instead the body and blood of Christ. The Vatican does not teach cannibalism. The empirical appearances are not changed, but the reality is. The consecration of the bread (known as the host) and wine represents the separation of Jesus's body from his blood at Calvary. However, since he has risen, the Church teaches that his body and blood can no longer be truly separated. Where one is, the other must be. Therefore, although the priest (or minister) says, "The body of Christ", when administering the host, and, "The blood of Christ", when presenting the chalice, the communicant who receives either one receives Christ, whole and entire.

(from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist )

Religion is always hot topic - I am not meaning to stir the pot, just interested in other peoples' point of view.

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Maybe the Priest should always offer two chalices: one that never had a Host in it and one for everyone else. That certainly would include the celiac and non celiac.

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Maybe the Priest should always offer two chalices: one that never had a Host in it and one for everyone else. That certainly would include the celiac and non celiac.

It seems that most, but not all, parishes I've been to do this, not necessarily for celiac though.

I, too, vote for d. I asked a priest why God would make me allergic to him. He said I was not allergic to God, I was allergic to bread, receive the cup and I receive the whole Christ, just as someone already posted in their quote of a Church document.

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I think God has to understand, we get our ability to understand from God Himself. It's not like we're outright denying the bread, it's that we want to be able to eat the bread, but our bodies won't let us. The intention is there, the love for God is there. I can't see God saying, "you didn't eat the bread and only had the chalice, you are incomplete in your Christianity." God doesn't want us to make ourselves sick for His sake, I'm sure.

I think that he would "tell them that they cannot be 'complete' in their Christianity if they don't eat the bread".

Why?

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I don't know why, because theology makes no sense to me. My impression of the god of the Old and New Testaments is that he is evil. More human suffering has been caused in his name than anything else in history, and he allows this to happen. We are told that suffering is good for the soul. I don't agree with this, but obviously many religous people and their priests do. It's all just a racket, and if people don't wake up, and SOON, it's all going to be over.

All right, that's it. I have yet to see you write a post that wasn't made to piss somebody off. There are plenty of other boards out there that you can instigate arguments with, because that's what those boards are for. This is a support board. We are here to help eachother and to support eachother, and turning this thread into a threat of hellfire and brimstone isn't being supportive of anyone, especially the person that posed the question to begin with. Please take your incidious comments somewhere else.

I'm done now, and will say nothing more on the subject.

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We were asked for our opinion. If you are not going to accept the choice that I made, and only want to hear those that agree with you, then what's the point? YOU asked me a question!

You are now name-calling, and telling me to not post here. That is not very nice, is it? I guess that I'm to blame - I should have known that being honest and answering a question put forth would bring the wrath of somebody down on me. I will not "report" you, but I'm sure that I will be reported for telling the truth as I see it.

P.S. vulgarities ("piss") are not very nice, either.

Just for the record: I do NOT believe that anybody is going to be faced with "hellfire and brimstone" in an afterlife. This is what is taught, though. I believe that the real threat of faith is what is being done on this planet -and to our bodies, which is what this conversation is about. That is the bottom line, and if you want to get me banned, go ahead and do your worst. :rolleyes:

You do have a point, penguin asked you why, pointed out to you that she was referring to you on another board, and used the word "piss". I think you're pushed many of us to our limits! However, I have to agree with her that you have been antagonistic with your "honesty" on every thread I have seen you post. With your agnostic ideas, I don't know why you'd be interested in a thread on the Eucharist anyway. Even your signature is designed to offend those of us who believe in a loving God. There are many topics that are covered here where we have differing ideas, yet there is a mutual respect we have for each other. We don't have an agenda other than to get healthy and support each other in doing so. I happen to be a very religious, practicing Catholic, but I have had great conversations with some who are of a more Buddhist type religion. Even if we don't agree, we still respect each other's ideas and learn from them.

You have mentioned you were a Catholic. I'm sorry that whoever did whatever they did to you has tarnished your idea of a loving God forever. You need to remember that the Church is full of people who make mistakes and don't necessarily reflect how loving God is and how he meant His Church to be. It's not Him who causes the problems in the Church, it's the human aspect of it.

I don't see the same evil God you do when reading the Old Testament. Have you really read it (rhetorical question, not looking for an answer)? Have you really looked at a crucifix and pondered why a man who is also God would do that? That act is what elevated suffering, which can be good for the soul as it makes us more detached from the material. Many of us, even the non-Christians who would disagree with me on much of what I just said, can look back over their suffering and tell you how they are a better person for having gone through it.

Again, I'm sorry that someone has made you so bitter. We are here to help and support you, but we are not happy with your constant attacks in the name of your honesty.

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I hope that the original question has been answered in a way that has been helpful.

I too asked why Bernice had the view she did - I have heard that view before - about why God would allow suffering and still be considered a loving God...

I feel sad too that Bernice does not see the loving God that others do - but my faith only developed as an adult - I was raised Catholic and taught to fear God as a child rather than turn to Him for support or thank Him when things went well. I came to view it differently when I married a man whose mother has very strong faith - in a loving God. A faith that was not shattered when her first pregnancy ended in stillbirth and baby # 2 died at one day old and when one of her adult children died in an accident. I could not understand how this woman was not angry at God, it was after listening ang learning and watching how her faith saved her from a lifetime of bitterness and sadness - that is when I finally got it and relaized how a different perspective helped me after my fisrtborn was rushed to the NICU.

True - a forum about celiac may not be the right place to have this discussion - it is a place for support and help. Others have views about vaccine issues, doctor stories that became controversial (opposing points of view) etc., so this thread is really no different.

There are other religions in this world, each has strong followings and beliefs. The strength of faith - be it Jewish, Catholic, protestant etc., can be a wonderful gift to get through trying times.

One of the commandments is to not use the Lord God's name in vain... many think that means - dont use his name as an expletive. I was taught it means - dont use his name to start a war or commit violence - citing that you are doing it in the name of God.

What I believe isnt what everyone else belives, that doesnt make either of us wrong. How we live each day and treat others determines who we are.

I hope you dont mind me sharing yet another of my writings... just something to consider.

I am no expert in theology so this my personal view - I do not believe that God inflicts disease and pain on our children or causes physical problems. We are born human and the gift of life is indeed a miracle from God, but from conception onward - we are human, and with that comes frailties. Our bodies will fail and sometimes babies die or struggle with a disability from birth; at

other times we have accidents. He gives us life and then it's up to us how we deal with it.

My belief? God surrounds us with the love of family, friends, church family, excellent doctors and therapists. If you blame God for the pain then you will be too bitter to notice what He provides. He welcomes the babies into Heaven with a loving embrace if they should pass too soon; He cries with us as we struggle with raising a child who is different from the rest, He weeps with us if they die too soon. I believe I was chosen to be Matthew and Kathryn's mother so I could see the gift of being different, so I could understand the love that surrounds me, so I could truly appreciate the angels here on earth that embrace me when I am weak. Perhaps I am here to help another family as they struggle with Aspergers or diabetes... I don't know yet.

I do not wait for God to save my child or cure my illness. This is how it was meant to be.

I remember the story of the man who waited in vain for God to save him as he sat on a roof during a flood, he ignored a boat and a helicopter as he waited for some sign from God. He dies and as he arrives in heaven he asks; "Where were you God?, I believed you would save me!"

The man failed to recognize that the boat and the helicopter were provided and he ignored them.

I have heard of some people that stop taking insulin, believing that God won't let them die......well, I think of insulin as the helicopter that is talked about in the story! It's there for us to use so we can take care of the life we have been given. God does provide, it may seem that we are alone at times - lean back and feel His embrace, He is there.

Sometimes he sends angels to us - ever wonder why your best friend calls just when you need support? Ever wonder why certain wonderful people have crossed our paths?

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Guest southgoingzax

Whoa!

I do not find anything that Bernice wrote to be offensive or intentionally antagonistic- it is her opinion, and she is entitled to it. She is also entitled to vocalize her opinions in this forum. As far as I know, this is still a democratic country, not a theocracy. Just because she doesn't believe in your God doesn't make her opinion any less worthy or valid. And she does have a point, because the Catholic church oes not accept gluten free communion wafers. So let's not start attacking people for their opinions. "God" is nothing that can be proven, and those of us who don't have a particular religion are still human and still deserve respect and compassion. Wasn't that what Jesus was all about?

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A message to the Celiacs: If your church, or anybody else, tells you that you must have gluten, or any other unhealthy substance or idea, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you follow their direction. It's time for all of us to purge ourselves not only of foods that make us sick, but ideas as well.

Thankfully, my Church does not say this.

Why, for instance, do you need a "savior"?

Same reason I need a map, I don't know the way to Heaven.

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Guest southgoingzax

Bernice,

I think you are very well-spoken. I think your opinions are clear and logical and that you are definitely entitled to express them here. I appreciate the diverse perspectives of this group and would never want to place restrictions on what can or can't be expressed, because that, inherently, will limit and constrict my own knowledge. I believe that religion is often used to control and manipulate people, especially the poor and undereducated, into acting against their own best interests. I think a lot of horrible, horrible things have been done in the name of one god or another. I think that we, as humans, would probably do a lot better if we started to believe in HUMANITY, not an ethereal god who may or may not care for us. WE should care for US.

Thank you for sharing your opinions here. I hope you continue to do so.

zax

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especially the poor and undereducated

I appreciate hearing other's ideas that are in the spirit of respect. Do not get the impression that I am poor and uneducated. I am neither. I would actually be interested in learning more about agnosticism as I know little about it, but not from someone who is hostile to my own faith or assumes I am ignorant for having it.

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Guest southgoingzax

Carla,

If you had read my previous post, you would understand that I am not hostile to religion in theory, nor was I attempting to imply that you are poor or uneducated. It seems like you are approaching me with a level of hostility I do not deserve. I do not think that everyone who is religious is stupid or mean or evil or in any other way inferrior to me or to someone else who does not believe in a god. I think that religious beliefs have been used to manipulate people and certainly have led to a lot of terrible wars and abuses of power. If you can find peace by believing in a savior, then more power to you. I am simply showing my support for the freedom of expression and the right to believe as you choice. I think that the world would be a better place if we could all be much more inclusive and accepting of other people's perspectives. Please do not attack me for sharing my opinion.

zax

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Carla,

If you had read my previous post, you would understand that I am not hostile to religion in theory, nor was I attempting to imply that you are poor or uneducated. It seems like you are approaching me with a level of hostility I do not deserve. I do not think that everyone who is religious is stupid or mean or evil or in any other way inferrior to me or to someone else who does not believe in a god. I think that religious beliefs have been used to manipulate people and certainly have led to a lot of terrible wars and abuses of power. If you can find peace by believing in a savior, then more power to you. I am simply showing my support for the freedom of expression and the right to believe as you choice. I think that the world would be a better place if we could all be much more inclusive and accepting of other people's perspectives. Please do not attack me for sharing my opinion.

zax

Zax,

I have read all the posts. I was just seconding the suggestion that Bernice was stirring up trouble on several boards with all of my comments except the one that was directed at you disagreeing that Christians were poor and undereducated. The rest had nothing to do with you.

Carla

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Guest southgoingzax

That's okay. It's clear that my opinion isn't wanted here either. So be it.

Well-behaved women rarely make history.

:lol: Stir it up, Bernice! Otherwise we'll all settle at the bottom!

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That's okay. It's clear that my opinion isn't wanted here either. So be it.

That's not what I meant ... :rolleyes:

Have to go, too many things to do this afternoon! Have a great day!

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I do apologize for attacking Bernice, she is indeed entitled to her opinon, and she has a right to say it.

By the way, I didn't make a single post on the topic of children in Chernobyl, so please realize that I am not the only one that have found your posts abrasive, so that if you are to lay blame you may do so in the right direction. There are plenty of other places where I have disagreed with you, but that thread was not one of them.

My frustrations toward you is that I have yet to see a post from you that is not meant to irritate, instigate, or otherwise rile someone up. These posts of yours aren't usually posts made in the midst of serious discussion, usually the thread is a lighthearted one and then it turns into a world catastrophy. I also have not seen a single post of yours that is encouraging or supportive of other board members, with the exception of the one on this thread where you thanked another poster for validating you. I am also entitled to my opinion, and I will have it.

Southgoingzax- I also didn't appreciate the comment about the religious being poor and uneducated. The religious come from all walks of life from the beggar to the millionaire, and from the drop-out to the PhD. I'm not even religious and that irritates me.

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Guest southgoingzax

Please read what I actually typed, not what you would like to read into it!

I did not say that religious people are poor or under-educated. I said that religion is often used to MANIPULATE the poor and under-educated. You are are creating a personal insult where there was none. I was not trying to offend, merely to point out that religion does not always have a positive influence on the world or the people it supposedly is saving. There are a great many people for whom their faith is a source of inspiration and strength, and the basis from which truly good works spring. That is a true gift. But, religion can also wreak havoc and humans often tweak teachings to serve their own, far less noble purposes. That was just a part of my point. So let's please stop jumping to conclusions!

God or no God, we wont get very far if we can't even feel free to express ourselves.

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