Celiac.com Sponsor (A1):


Join eNewsletter


Celiac.com Sponsor (A1-m):



Join eNewsletter

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

KevinG

Does Doubling The Gluten Double The Symptoms?

Recommended Posts

Sometimes you discover you accidentally ate a trace amount of gluten; in other cases, you discover you ate a lot.

How much of a difference in your symptoms is there between those two cases? If you ate something that contains 1 ounce of flour, do you think your symptoms would be 5 times worse than if it had only contained 1/5 of an ounce?

I'm trying to figure out if getting glutened is more binary (either you get glutened or you don't), or linear (symptoms scale in proportion to the amount of gluten you ate), or somewhere in between.

I'm also interested to see if there's a difference between celiac disease and gluten intolerance in this regard.


  • Tissue transglutaminase antibody, IgA (normal is <20): 4
  • Endomysial AB IgA: negative

Enterolab results:

  • [*]Fecal Anti-gliadin IgA (normal is <10): 52 Units [*]Fecal Anti-tissue Transglutaminase IgA (normal is <10): 30 Units [*]Fecal Fat Score (normal is <300): Less than 300 [*]Fecal Anti-casein (cow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Celiac.com Sponsor (A8):

Celiac.com Sponsor (A8):


I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as gluten intolerance. The tests fail us. The tests suck and are inferior. When the tests fail people but they have celiac and figure it out somehow they are labeled gluten intolerance. I think it's all celiac and one day when the tests are more accurate they will find that out. My opinion based on lots of people's stories.

As far as the effect of gluten, well yes the more gluten you consume the sicker you will be. It's a lot more for your body to process and get rid of. I have never and will never ever cheat. Trace amounts make me sick. But I did get glutened bad from a restaurant and I was sick for an entire week. Gotten CC'd at home from my kids- so crumbs and trace amounts- the symptoms lasted a day.


Lots of doctors diagnosed me with lots of things including IBS, lactose intolerance, wheat intolerance, and quite a few of them threw up their hands in total confusion.

Had GI symptoms, allergy symptoms and unexplained illness my whole life.

Jan. 2010 Diagnosed celiac at the age of 40.

Ready to get well and get on with my life!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me the amount doesn't matter as far as the time frame goes but if I get a lot, which I haven't in a long time thank goodness, the first couple days are more violent illness. Once my antibodies get activated the symptom cascade is the same. The reaction may differ from person to person though. Some only get sick for a day or two, others like myself suffer for a couple of weeks. The difference may be in how many body systems the antibodies had the chance to attack before diagnosis but I don't know for sure.


Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying

"I will try again tommorrow" (Mary Anne Radmacher)

Diagnosed by Allergist with elimination diet and diagnosis confirmed by GI in 2002

Misdiagnoses for 15 years were IBS-D, ataxia, migraines, anxiety, depression, fibromyalgia, parathesias, arthritis, livedo reticularis, hairloss, premature menopause, osteoporosis, kidney damage, diverticulosis, prediabetes and ulcers, dermatitis herpeformis

All bold resoved or went into remission in time with proper diagnosis of Celiac November 2002

 Gene Test Aug 2007

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0303

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0303

Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 3,3 (Subtype 9,9)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as gluten intolerance. The tests fail us. The tests suck and are inferior. When the tests fail people but they have celiac and figure it out somehow they are labeled gluten intolerance. I think it's all celiac and one day when the tests are more accurate they will find that out. My opinion based on lots of people's stories.

Seconded. And well put. The tests just aren't accurate enough for me to believe that some people are celiac yet others, who have the same symptoms (or similar symptoms) are intolerant of gluten. I just can't get behind that notion, ya know?


Monica

dx celiac disease- November 1, 2008

dairy/casein free (much to my chagrin) for good- September 1, 2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seconded. And well put. The tests just aren't accurate enough for me to believe that some people are celiac yet others, who have the same symptoms (or similar symptoms) are intolerant of gluten. I just can't get behind that notion, ya know?

I totally agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as gluten intolerance. The tests fail us. The tests suck and are inferior. When the tests fail people but they have celiac and figure it out somehow they are labeled gluten intolerance. I think it's all celiac and one day when the tests are more accurate they will find that out. My opinion based on lots of people's stories.

I don't agree with this at all. There is a reasonable amount of scientific work showing non-celiac effects of gliadin on the intestinal mucosa and immune system. From that work, and some clearly demonstrated transient gluten reactions in people with Crohn's, colitis, and SIBO flareups, my hypothesis is that gliadin is more of an intestinal irritant than a trigger of autoimmunity in some people. For example, there was a recent paper where gliadin was shown to trigger TNF-alpha release in tissue cultured intestinal cells through a direct effect on surface receptors. Wheat also contains a fair amount of fructans, so that component of bread and cereal can be troublesome for people with fructose malabsorption and SIBO. Layered on top of this is the somewhat under-acknowledged issue of true wheat allergy, and of wheat germ agglutinin reactions, which can also cause cramping and D. I do completely agree that there is a much broader spectrum of autoimmune, "celiac" reactions than doctors currently acknowledge. The inadequacy of both celiac and food allergy testing has issues very confused right now.

By the way Kevin, with DQ2 and DQ7 (which usually means you have trans DQ2.5), your own gluten reactions are most likely autoimmune and truly in the celiac spectrum. If you're asking this question with the intent of trying to figure out whether you can tolerate wheat, keep that in mind.

By the way, I haven't eaten a LOT of gluten in a long time to have any idea how to answer your main question. My gluten ingestions are always accidental and I have no way to measure how much I ate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't agree with this at all. There is a reasonable amount of scientific work showing non-celiac effects of gliadin on the intestinal mucosa and immune system. From that work, and some clearly demonstrated transient gluten reactions in people with Crohn's, colitis, and SIBO flareups, my hypothesis is that gliadin is more of an intestinal irritant than a trigger of autoimmunity in some people. For example, there was a recent paper where gliadin was shown to trigger TNF-alpha release in tissue cultured intestinal cells through a direct effect on surface receptors. Wheat also contains a fair amount of fructans, so that component of bread and cereal can be troublesome for people with fructose malabsorption and SIBO. Layered on top of this is the somewhat under-acknowledged issue of true wheat allergy, and of wheat germ agglutinin reactions, which can also cause cramping and D. I do completely agree that there is a much broader spectrum of autoimmune, "celiac" reactions than doctors currently acknowledge. The inadequacy of both celiac and food allergy testing has issues very confused right now.

By the way Kevin, with DQ2 and DQ7 (which usually means you have trans DQ2.5), your own gluten reactions are most likely autoimmune and truly in the celiac spectrum. If you're asking this question with the intent of trying to figure out whether you can tolerate wheat, keep that in mind.

By the way, I haven't eaten a LOT of gluten in a long time to have any idea how to answer your main question. My gluten ingestions are always accidental and I have no way to measure how much I ate.

Very informative post, Skylark. I pasted this into my personal notebook. Thanks.


  • Tissue transglutaminase antibody, IgA (normal is <20): 4
  • Endomysial AB IgA: negative

Enterolab results:

  • [*]Fecal Anti-gliadin IgA (normal is <10): 52 Units [*]Fecal Anti-tissue Transglutaminase IgA (normal is <10): 30 Units [*]Fecal Fat Score (normal is <300): Less than 300 [*]Fecal Anti-casein (cow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't agree with this at all. There is a reasonable amount of scientific work showing non-celiac effects of gliadin on the intestinal mucosa and immune system. From that work, and some clearly demonstrated transient gluten reactions in people with Crohn's, colitis, and SIBO flareups, my hypothesis is that gliadin is more of an intestinal irritant than a trigger of autoimmunity in some people. For example, there was a recent paper where gliadin was shown to trigger TNF-alpha release in tissue cultured intestinal cells through a direct effect on surface receptors. Wheat also contains a fair amount of fructans, so that component of bread and cereal can be troublesome for people with fructose malabsorption and SIBO. Layered on top of this is the somewhat under-acknowledged issue of true wheat allergy, and of wheat germ agglutinin reactions, which can also cause cramping and D. I do completely agree that there is a much broader spectrum of autoimmune, "celiac" reactions than doctors currently acknowledge. The inadequacy of both celiac and food allergy testing has issues very confused right now.

By the way Kevin, with DQ2 and DQ7 (which usually means you have trans DQ2.5), your own gluten reactions are most likely autoimmune and truly in the celiac spectrum. If you're asking this question with the intent of trying to figure out whether you can tolerate wheat, keep that in mind.

By the way, I haven't eaten a LOT of gluten in a long time to have any idea how to answer your main question. My gluten ingestions are always accidental and I have no way to measure how much I ate.

Very interesting. Okay I will rephrase. I believe that many many people are figuring it out on their own or whatever and considering themselves gluten intolerant when really they have celiac that just didn't show up on the not so great tests.

My peeve with gluten intolerance is that there is an implication that it's less serious. Know what I mean?

Well this issue of how much gluten came up for me yesterday. I got glutened by trace amounts and my symptoms went away after about 4 hours. Still a little bloated today but nothing major.


Lots of doctors diagnosed me with lots of things including IBS, lactose intolerance, wheat intolerance, and quite a few of them threw up their hands in total confusion.

Had GI symptoms, allergy symptoms and unexplained illness my whole life.

Jan. 2010 Diagnosed celiac at the age of 40.

Ready to get well and get on with my life!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting. Okay I will rephrase. I believe that many many people are figuring it out on their own or whatever and considering themselves gluten intolerant when really they have celiac that just didn't show up on the not so great tests.

My peeve with gluten intolerance is that there is an implication that it's less serious. Know what I mean?

Yes, I do know what you mean. When eating gluten makes you feel awful for days on end, it really doesn't matter one way or the other whether you're celiac. It's pathetic that we have to use the word "allergy" to get taken seriously half the time.

And yes, people who get symptoms from gluten and show up negative on the not-so-great tests are a concern. Do they have neuro antibodies we can't measure? Are they "pre-celiac" and will eventually become celiac? Or are they having different reactions so eating a little gluten from time to time is not an issue? There are no answers for these questions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites