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Dr. B

Discussion On Why We Are Gluten Intolerant?

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I want to discuss how gluten affects our bodies, the reasons we need to stay away from it, how antibodies react to gluten, are gluten antibodies a problem or are they normal and of no concern, do our bodies accumulate foreign gluten proteins?

Recent studies have suggested that our autoimmune antibodies are normal, that they are supposed to attack foreign proteins like gluten and that there is no need to worry about them attacking healthy cells.

Reference: http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/Proal_MHB_Chapter_preprint.pdf

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I want to discuss how gluten affects our bodies, the reasons we need to stay away from it, how antibodies react to gluten, are gluten antibodies a problem or are they normal and of no concern, do our bodies accumulate foreign gluten proteins?

Recent studies have suggested that our autoimmune antibodies are normal, that they are supposed to attack foreign proteins like gluten and that there is no need to worry about them attacking healthy cells.

Reference: http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/Proal_MHB_Chapter_preprint.pdf

I'm kinda new. Been reading around for awhile. What kind of doctor are you? Its nice to see a doc that knows about Cleiac.

This article seems a bit technical for most of us and I don't see where it mentions gluten anywhere. Talks about germs.

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I'm kinda new. Been reading around for awhile. What kind of doctor are you? Its nice to see a doc that knows about Cleiac.

This article seems a bit technical for most of us and I don't see where it mentions gluten anywhere. Talks about germs.

"Dr. B" seems to be new too and from reading his posts I don't think he is a doctor at all. Welcome! There are many knowledgable people here and I do know there is a real diagnosed med student somewhere so the medical profession is not a completely lost cause ;)

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I'm kinda new. Been reading around for awhile. What kind of doctor are you? Its nice to see a doc that knows about Cleiac.

This article seems a bit technical for most of us and I don't see where it mentions gluten anywhere. Talks about germs.

I am a Naturopath/Holistic MD.

There is great concern about whether or not autoimmune antibodies kill healthy cells, both in celiac disease, and in diabetes. In celiac, the concern is

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Its a chapter out of a text book. It does seem to talk about different "bugs" that are present in different diseases but maybe you could highlight the part about our immune sytems aren't attacking us. Its pretty hard to read all that with out a medical degree. :)

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The chapter doesn't mention the pancreas, islet cells, or villi. It's about infections triggering autoimmune responses.

I'm not sure you understand what you're posting, and I agree with the previous poster that you are highly unlikely to have any formal medical education.

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I am currently treating several diabetic patients and their main concern is about their autoimmune antibodies attacking the islets of the pancreas. In celiac disease, destruction of the intestinal villi seems to be a concern of many people, including myself.

This paper discusses "in general", how autoimmune antibodies function and the fact that they do not attack healthy cells. My patients and I both find relief in knowing this. :)

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I am all for learning new things and even debating different issues. I an certain we do not know all there is to know about Celiac, autoimmune disorders & gluten intolerance.

To tell you the truth, I have some concerns that you are putting yourself out there as a Naturopath and an MD.

This is from your own profile:

I’m a guy who is 58 yrs. old, a self-taught nutritionist for 30 years now, and I like helping people. I have tried just about every diet and every fast known to man.

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This report puts my mind at ease because I have always been concerned about autoimmune antibodies destroying healthy cells in the body. Now I am no longer concerned about that.

Glad your not concerned. Maybe you would like to convince the scar tissue from autoimmune destruction in my brain that was found on an MRI. Or perhaps you could convince my brother whose liver was destroyed by autoimmune activity by age 16...oh wait you can't he's dead.

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I am currently treating several diabetic patients and their main concern is about their autoimmune antibodies attacking the islets of the pancreas. In celiac disease, destruction of the intestinal villi seems to be a concern of many people, including myself.

This paper discusses "in general", how autoimmune antibodies function and the fact that they do not attack healthy cells. My patients and I both find relief in knowing this. :)

You keep repeating this. Sorry, but it really sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about in reards to celiac disease. If our antibodies are not attacking healthy cells then I guess all our cells are diseased because there is EVIDENCE of villi damage (and damage in other organs as ravenwood gave examples from her own life above) in diagnosed celiac patients! This does not put my mind at ease or give ME relief. The only thing that gives me relief is a strict gluten free diet to prevent further damage.

This board is very patient and open to reading new research/new ideas but what you are citing has nothing to do with gluten intolerance nor celiac disease. Please sell your psudeo-medicine somewhere else. Many of us already have enough people in our lives denying celiac is real or disbelieving how careful we need to be. We don't need someone claiming to be a doctor confusing new members looking for help.

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My biopsy found Marsh 4 damage to my villi. If autoimmune attacks were not the cause, can you tell me what was? I went on a completely gluten-free diet, and my villi recovered as confirmed by a second biopsy a few years later. Something destroyed the islet cells in my pancreas. Were they diseased, or were they healthy cells attacked by an autoimmune response?

If you are really a doctor, which I doubt, please post your credentials.

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I did skim through the section about autoimmunity. Here is how I understood it. In a nut shell it is theroized that autoantibodies are produced initially by exposure to a pathogen. Then those autoantibodies either from a "stress" or by mimicry, start to attack self. I don't recall seeing where it said that autoantibodies didn't destroy healthy cells.

Molecular mimicry, in which peptides from pathogens

share sequence or structural similarities with selfantigens,

may also contribute to autoantibody production

It also states:

The prevailing theory of autoimmune disease, which dictates

that the body creates autoantibodies that attack its

own cells, was developed during an era when culturebased

methods vastly underestimated the number of microbes

capable of persisting in and on Homo sapiens. The

advent of culture-independent tools such as 16S RNA sequencing,

single cell sampling, and pyrosequencing have

opened the door to an era of discovery. Rather than a sterile

compartment, the human body is now known to teem

with thousands of species of bacteria, viruses and phages.

In addition to persisting on the body's external surfaces,

these microbes survive in the blood and in many of the

tissues which become inflamed during autoimmune disease,

suggesting that what were once thought to be

"autoimmune" processes may instead result from the

presence of persistent microbes. Metagenomics is allowing

us to study these microbes in the tissues within which

they naturally persist, where they can be examined in the

context of other microbes in their community. A more exact

understanding of how networks of microbes can interact

to cause disease has superseded Kochs Postulates,

which stipulate that a single microbe causes a single disease

Analyzing autoimmune disease through the lens of metagenomics

calls for a re-evaluation of the autoantibody.

Polyspecific autoantibodies are increasingly being associated

with elements of the microbiota, making it likely that

the term "autoimmune" will soon lose its diagnostic utility.

When a disabled immune system is forced to respond to

the presence of a chronic microbiota, the resulting cascade

of cytokines and chemokines will stimulate an adaptive

immune response. The adaptive immune system will

then proceed to generate antibodies to fragments of DNA

generated by apoptosis or phagocytosis of infected cells.

This is supported by studies showing that so-called autoantibodies

such as RO, La, dsDNA and RF can be created in

response to various bacterial and viral pathogens. Autoantibodies

are often observed before a patient becomes

fully symptomatic with an autoimmune diagnosis, reflecting

the gradual accumulation of persistent microbes.

.

IMHO, autoantibodies do damage healthy cells. Anyway, this article just theorizes that autoimmunity is caused by an overload of microbes. It's interesting, but it needs more research. I don't think ridding my body of the potential microbial overload is going to cure my celiac disease. I'll stay gluten free, thanks!

Also, how do you explain the autoantibodies associated with celiac disease decreasing while consuming a gluten free diet then? HMM...

Edited by Roda
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