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schuyler

Vegetarian Vs Eating Meat

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What's belief got to do with the amount of protein our bodies require? The standard calculation is that a person's dietary intake of protein should be 1 gram per kilogram of bodyweight. People who take in less than this are less healthy than those who do. A vegan diet is on the low side of that, which may not be enough for people in a health stress situation.

Yes, that is your belief because you choose to believe a source that says we need more protein than the average perosn uses. According tot he FDA daily protein requirements for an adult are between 0.6 - 0.8 grams of protein for every 2.2 pounds (1 kilogram) of body weight.

Sorry, but I really don't buy what you are selling. I'm not even a vegetarian, which I have mentioned before. I just know a bit about nutrition.

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Sorry, but I really don't buy what you are selling. I'm not even a vegetarian, which I have mentioned before. I just know a bit about nutrition.

rotflmao

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Since you have indicated you don't need to crunch the numbers, I'll do some number-crunching for you.

How much of the following do you need to eat to get a day's protein intake? I've selected these foods because they are the ones which you gave as examples of foods that will produce an adequate diet. My numbers here are for a 50 kg person.

Rice - 1 pound 9 ounces dry weight, before cooking. Rice is not a high protein food! To eat this much rice would give that 50 kg person 2500 calories, more calories than they need, but with no room left for other foods.

Potatoes - 7 pounds if you eat the skins - 1883 calories. Too bad if you like butter, no calories to spare.

Further this assumaes that the proteins in those are actually complete in terms of the human bodies requirements for amino acids.

According tot he FDA daily protein requirements for an adult are between 0.6 - 0.8 grams of protein for every 2.2 pounds (1 kilogram) of body weight.

http://www.unu.edu/unupress/food/8F173e/8F173E02.htm

The first thing to notice is that the protein requirements depend on the type of protein and that protein deficiency is a simple thing to test.

Adding the mean of the long-term studies to that of the short-term studies gave an average of 0.605 g/kg/day, which when increased by 25% gave a calculated safe level of intake of 0.76 g/kg/day. This was rounded to the final value proposed of 0.75 g good-quality protein per kilogram per day.

However the crux is that much of the vegetable protein is not usable without adding the right balance... The following are amino acid breakdowns of a few proteins and the average for nitrogen balance in humans in mg/g of nitrogen. (8 essentials + the 2 commonly accepted semi-essentials)

mg/g N	Isoleucine	Leucine	Lysine	Methionine	Cystine	Phenylalanine	Tyrosine	Threonine	Tryptophan	Valine


Kidney beans	180	279	256	57	73	173	210	194	45	225

Cabbage 	242	296	148	36	1	58	1	1	27	76

RICE	285	536	248	141	104	344	295	243	78	403

IDEAL N balance	250	440	340	220	120	380	240	250	65	310

Human milk	252.63	488.42	343.16	105.26	121.05	222.11	243.68	259.47	100	300

The problem is that although some of the pulses etc. have good overall ranges in they are usually deficient in one or more essential amino acids. Although this can be found elsewhere in other foods like cereals these contribute but add another hole when the two proteins are added together.

Some vegatables are completely bizarre in terms of amino acid content of their proteins. Compared with what a human body needs the ratio's of some amino acids can be sky high while others are near zero.

Thus the proteins are mainly not used as proteins but eventually broken down for energy.

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The problem is that although some of the pulses etc. have good overall ranges in they are usually deficient in one or more essential amino acids. Although this can be found elsewhere in other foods like cereals these contribute but add another hole when the two proteins are added together.

Some vegatables are completely bizarre in terms of amino acid content of their proteins. Compared with what a human body needs the ratio's of some amino acids can be sky high while others are near zero.

Thus the proteins are mainly not used as proteins but eventually broken down for energy.

I think most vegetarians who have bothered to educate themselves, even just moderately, about the vegetarian diet know that most plant-based sources of protein are 'incomplete'. Granted, there are probably a number of vegetarians out there who do not educate themselves (unlikely on this board, given our population, but I'm sure there are plenty of them out there), so I think education is the key. For those unwilling to take the time/energy to educate themselves... perhaps it's not a good dietary choice.

Based on the work I did looking into going vegetarian, it does indeed look like you can certainly get all the protein you need (even up to the 1g/kg level - a level I've seen as the low-end of the recommendation scale for weight-training), but you have to be smart about it. You can't waste your calories on juice and lots of fruit; you have to be strategic about your eating. (Heh, really, it's a lot like RPG games, and allocating your gear...) Like the gluten-free diet, once you become accustomed to it, it doesn't need to be that hard (you automatically know not to go for white rice, but brown/wild if you can't get a more complete grain like quinoa), but it's a learning curve.

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I think most vegetarians who have bothered to educate themselves, even just moderately, about the vegetarian diet know that most plant-based sources of protein are 'incomplete'. Granted, there are probably a number of vegetarians out there who do not educate themselves (unlikely on this board, given our population, but I'm sure there are plenty of them out there), so I think education is the key. For those unwilling to take the time/energy to educate themselves... perhaps it's not a good dietary choice.

Most people in general, regardless of their dietary preferences, have avoided learning about the food they are eating. If I think vegetarians and vegans rarely do this, it isn't saying that I think people who eat meat every do it either. In fact, I think that people in general avoid this information for fear of having to change their diet - a great and fearful unknown.

Based on the work I did looking into going vegetarian, it does indeed look like you can certainly get all the protein you need (even up to the 1g/kg level - a level I've seen as the low-end of the recommendation scale for weight-training), but you have to be smart about it. You can't waste your calories on juice and lots of fruit; you have to be strategic about your eating. (Heh, really, it's a lot like RPG games, and allocating your gear...) Like the gluten-free diet, once you become accustomed to it, it doesn't need to be that hard (you automatically know not to go for white rice, but brown/wild if you can't get a more complete grain like quinoa), but it's a learning curve.

Actually I compared brown and white rice when doing a little research for this article. The brown rice may be higher in certain vitamins, and certainly in fiber, but it contains the exact same amount of protein, and the fact that it is less digestible means that some of its nutritional components may be less bioavailable.

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I think a big danger in our thinking is assuming that anything is right for all people, or wrong for all people. Examples: garlic. Everyone thinks garlic is so awesome - it makes me, my mother, and many others balloon up and be in misery for hours. Wine - good for the heart, right? If you're a man, most likely; if you're a woman, less so and likely to cause breast cancer.

Each persons body is different. I have done well on vegan + salmon + eggs for years, but my husband can't go veggie for more than a day or two without becoming pale and sickly. I know some raw foodists who are remarkably healthy (at least in the summertime), but others who are ridiculously thin and manic.

It seems to me this argument has become about semantics and evidence, when we all know that evidence can happily support any side of this argument, or nearly any other for that matter. Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics...isn't that how that saying goes? We should ask ourselves what is so important to us about convincing the ther person we're right.

Lastly, I recall one person said that they had never known a veggie who thought about their diets. Well, you certainly don't know me. Of course, I know those folks too. They go to the store and just buy replacements for the meat - SOY and DAIRY...and this is in part because of marketing campaigns by those industries. In that sense, I agree. But you seemed to have some disdain for the veggies, rather than for the huge corporations raking in cash at the expense of the health of Americans (including those who eat meat). That's who we should all be railing against, not one another.

Exactly! Why are we arguing with each other when everyone is different and it is the corporations that are the problem. Rarely do people look at the source of the problem.

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Reading above about the dangers of Soy as a plant estrogen, affecting the hormones of women, and also the overuse of wine as a cause of breast cancer.

I am just wondering about all this. Asian cultures eat tons of soy products. The French and some other Europeans drink tons of wine.

There is very little breast cancer in Asia, and certainly no more Breast Cancer in France than here.

Just wondering. Karen

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Reading above about the dangers of Soy as a plant estrogen, affecting the hormones of women, and also the overuse of wine as a cause of breast cancer.

I am just wondering about all this. Asian cultures eat tons of soy products. The French and some other Europeans drink tons of wine.

There is very little breast cancer in Asia, and certainly no more Breast Cancer in France than here.

Just wondering. Karen

Actually asians eat little soy in thier traditional diets and this is mostly fermented see: http://health.centreforce.com/health/soy.html

And on breast cancer, I'm not sure of the actual stats on early phase breast cancer but on cancer recovery France has one of the best medical systems in the world. Its expensive, but all cancer medication, ops etc. are free (well courtousy of the tax payers) so cancer survival in France is higher than the US.

I happen to have an American friend here in Paris in remission who has seen both sides of this but this is the difference between a socialised medical system and a private one where the quality of service depends on insurance and what you can pay.

Here is one link I found...

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/suroffrenwom.html

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I think most vegetarians who have bothered to educate themselves, even just moderately, about the vegetarian diet know that most plant-based sources of protein are 'incomplete'. Granted, there are probably a number of vegetarians out there who do not educate themselves (unlikely on this board, given our population, but I'm sure there are plenty of them out there), so I think education is the key. For those unwilling to take the time/energy to educate themselves... perhaps it's not a good dietary choice.

I agree on both counts, and education is the key. Indeed if you check all my posts I have never said vegetarianism is unhealthy as has been claimed all i have ever said is that without advanced dietry knowledge and very careful planning it has an increased opportunity to provide an unbalanced diet and that without this advanced knowledge and research it tends to rely on spupplimentation from questionable sources like soy.

Based on the work I did looking into going vegetarian, it does indeed look like you can certainly get all the protein you need (even up to the 1g/kg level - a level I've seen as the low-end of the recommendation scale for weight-training), but you have to be smart about it. You can't waste your calories on juice and lots of fruit; you have to be strategic about your eating. (Heh, really, it's a lot like RPG games, and allocating your gear...) Like the gluten-free diet, once you become accustomed to it, it doesn't need to be that hard (you automatically know not to go for white rice, but brown/wild if you can't get a more complete grain like quinoa), but it's a learning curve.

Absolutely and I was a quasi vegetarian for 4-5 years because my girlfriend was vegetarian and it was simpler that way. I had no aversion to meat, I just didn't buy it and being a student my diet was financially controlled to that I made myself. However the protein needed for a positive nitrogen balance varies according to the protein AND absorbtion. WHO figures today show about 0.7g/kg but this is not corrected for those with malabsorbtion issues and this is especially true in legume and grain proteins which are particualrly indigestable to start with, let alone someone wioth malabsorbtion and damaged villi.

However as eKatherine said

Most people in general, regardless of their dietary preferences, have avoided learning about the food they are eating. If I think vegetarians and vegans rarely do this, it isn't saying that I think people who eat meat every do it either. In fact, I think that people in general avoid this information for fear of having to change their diet - a great and fearful unknown.

Indeed, my first post on this thread merely stated

The first thing to realise is there ios no such thing as a healthy diet.

If you reach 18, have 3-4 kids and die you have achieved your sole purpose.

But I was told that is fatalistic and later if I want to live like a chimp that is up to me or if I want to scrub around in the forests looking for food etc. .

The fact remains there is no such thing as the healthy diet, just varying degrees.

As was said by eKatherine there seems to be a barrier to vegetarians actually looking up the figures because they seem to beleive the vegetarian diet is healthy by definition .....

I think half the problem is that vegetarians and vegans are often hassled by their own families .. and further in many cases by families with a very poor diet (SAD) who are obviously unhealthy. Hence they take a defensive postition based on their diet being healthier than their family or whomever is the one criticising their vegetarianism.

Hence:

People, for some reason, hold a prejudice against vegetarians (maybe their lifestyle threatens you in some way) and then they run around finding any evidence they can that it is unhealthy and evil. Why can't people just live their lifestyle the way they want and leave others alone about their choices?

I mean what a completely pointless post!

I happen to have researched soy for my own health, I happen to have researched protein adsorbtion for the same reasons and people come here and ask questions.... so from what she is saying I shouldn't express my views when answering someone else, I should leave them alone?

When people make wild and outrageous claims like chimpanzee's are vegetarian I should just ignore it and not correct it and that vegetanarianism is simply a healthier lifestyle and therefore doesn't need questioning and proof to the contrary be damned?

I fail to see the point of this board if this is the case.

Further to this is the existance of many vegetarian sites dedicated to defending vegetarianism with quasi-science. Heck their are hundreds with myth buster factoids like amino acid ratio's can be balanced yet they all stop short of actually doing the math. As a scientist I findd these sites objectionable because they are pretending to express scientific fact without proof based on the fundamental tenet that "vegetarianism is healthy" and there is no need to check.

edits:

The point is non of these pro-vegan/vegetarian sites contain figures for the constituent parts of different foods yet this information is avaialable in many places such as

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/X6878E/X6878E00.htm#TOC

Yet in every place the actual analysis and results are found they find that minimum protein intake is in the region of 0.7g/kg and that vegetarian protein intake is insufficient.

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I had the same issue "going veggie" seemed like a good change for me and I got into the issue of balancing proteins and carbs, balancing legume consumption (for nitrogen) and finding enough sources of calcium, iron, etc. It certainly is a tightrope act maintaining a healthy diet on vegan sources alone. That being said, I am not a vegan/vegetarian as it was just too much to think about.

I think careful analysis of the vegan diet is mandatory especially for a celiac patient as yes, there are malabsorption issues to begin with. Once you have mapped out a vegan diet (with all the minimum nutritional requirements and with a -sorry for the pun - seasoned nutritionist) you then are ready, set & go to eat vegan.

I don't think the non-vegans (on our thread) are questionning a vegans choice here, but just stating what might not be the obvious to the general public: that the vegan diet can be inadequate (as many non vegan diets are too, but they require less homework because "everything goes.") if you don't do it without doing your homework on types of protein, carbs, etc. Without doing homework, your vegan diet could end up being inadequate for your needs and thereby creating additional health problems. I guess it can be boiled down to "look before you leap."

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I had the same issue "going veggie" seemed like a good change for me and I got into the issue of balancing proteins and carbs, balancing legume consumption (for nitrogen) and finding enough sources of calcium, iron, etc. It certainly is a tightrope act maintaining a healthy diet on vegan sources alone. That being said, I am not a vegan/vegetarian as it was just too much to think about.

I think careful analysis of the vegan diet is mandatory especially for a celiac patient as yes, there are malabsorption issues to begin with. Once you have mapped out a vegan diet (with all the minimum nutritional requirements and with a -sorry for the pun - seasoned nutritionist) you then are ready, set & go to eat vegan.

I don't think the non-vegans (on our thread) are questionning a vegans choice here, but just stating what might not be the obvious to the general public: that the vegan diet can be inadequate (as many non vegan diets are too, but they require less homework because "everything goes.") if you don't do it without doing your homework on types of protein, carbs, etc. Without doing homework, your vegan diet could end up being inadequate for your needs and thereby creating additional health problems. I guess it can be boiled down to "look before you leap."

exactly...

The original issue was why a nutritionist would suggest adding meat to a diet for someone with celiac problems.

I would imagine that the primary reason for this is the nutritionist beleives that they are not getting enough protein to maintain a positive nitrogen balance.

I have been a vegetarian for about 7-8 years, and before my celiac diagnosis, I relied heavily on meat substitutes. I cut out the fake meats after my diagnosis because almost all of them contain gluten as a filler. Since then I have been eating tofu and drinking soy milk about 3 times a week. Last week, I also found out that I am lactose and casien intollerant. Friday I spoke on the phone with a nutritionst and she told me that I need to cut out or limit my tofu and soy milk intake and start eating some meat. This is a nutritionist that I know well, but I wanted another opinion, so I asked a doctor who told me that cutting out those things would not help me. I'm so confused!! That is why I'd like advice from you all. Since my diagnosis, my symptoms have not improved at all, I have not gained any weight, and yesterday I developed a blistery, itchy yet burning rash all over my face (possibly dh, but I'm not sure).

So we have a vegetarian, trying to gain body mass who is lactose and casein intolerant and celaic.

Her nutritionist wants her to limit her intake of soy prodcuts (suggesting a suspicion of intolerance to them IMHO) and start eating some meat.

This largely suggests to me her nutritionist suspects or has tested (nitrogen balance is simple to test on urine) however her Dr. doesn't think cutting out soy will help and she is confused... who wouldn't be!

Now noone here as far as i can see has said a vegetarian or even vegan diet is unhealthy in itself, simply that it is more difficult to get a balanced diet. All the evidence we have (above post) leads me to think her nutritionists suspects or has confirmed she is in a catabolic state and hence not gaining the desired weight.

If the nutritionist suspected to few calories or vitamins the nutritionist would have told her to increase calories or take suppliments... but they do not they simply suggest cuttting soy and adding meat.

Its entirely possible the nutritionist if employed fulltime could formulate a balanced vegan diet without soy but they would need to know everything she ate everyday .. so she has taken the simple and practical option of removing soy and adding meat.

Presuming the OP can eat meat and her later posts show she is then the simple answer to her question is in two parts.

1) Eating meat is the simplest way to achieve a positive nitrogen balance for someone with lactose and casein intolerances.

2) Given the OP is tested positive for celaic, lactose and casein intolerances reducing a known and common intolerant (soy) from the diet is a sensible step.

There are pro-soy and anti-soy lobbies but the obvious thing to do if in doubt is to cut it out! Indeed givent he timeframe for clinical testing on the issues the responsible thing for the nutritionist to do is suggest erring on the side of safety?

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When people make wild and outrageous claims like chimpanzee's are vegetarian I should just ignore it and not correct it and that vegetanarianism is simply a healthier lifestyle and therefore doesn't need questioning and proof to the contrary be damned?

I would like to point out that I never stated a vegetarian lifestyle is healthier. I said it can be healthy, just as a meat eating diet can be healthy. Both can provide ample sources of nutrients and protein. I'm not even a vegetarian myself. I consider myself a meat-n-potatoes person. I am just defending them because I have never seen conclusive evidence to the contrary.

I know that ,traditionally, the human diet has consisted of mostly plant foods gathered by women, and only about 5% of the prehistorical human diet consisted of animal products. Any more can be too much. Too much saturated fats can cause all kinds of problems, including heart disease and obesity. There is a healthy balance, and I feel many vegetarians meet this and are well-informed about nutrition. They are not the picture of ignorance and sicklyness that you seem to be painting of them.

That's all I really have to say. I'm tired of arguing with people who obviously false presumptions when it comes to this topic of vegetarians.

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I think most vegetarians who have bothered to educate themselves, even just moderately, about the vegetarian diet know that most plant-based sources of protein are 'incomplete'. Granted, there are probably a number of vegetarians out there who do not educate themselves (unlikely on this board, given our population, but I'm sure there are plenty of them out there), so I think education is the key. For those unwilling to take the time/energy to educate themselves... perhaps it's not a good dietary choice.

Based on the work I did looking into going vegetarian, it does indeed look like you can certainly get all the protein you need (even up to the 1g/kg level - a level I've seen as the low-end of the recommendation scale for weight-training), but you have to be smart about it. You can't waste your calories on juice and lots of fruit; you have to be strategic about your eating. (Heh, really, it's a lot like RPG games, and allocating your gear...) Like the gluten-free diet, once you become accustomed to it, it doesn't need to be that hard (you automatically know not to go for white rice, but brown/wild if you can't get a more complete grain like quinoa), but it's a learning curve.

I bought a box of quinoa flakes a while back and put it in the frig. because I have never eaten it. It is ancient harvest organic. Any suggestions? How do you eat it? Thanks, LindaLee

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I bought a box of quinoa flakes a while back and put it in the frig. because I have never eaten it. It is ancient harvest organic. Any suggestions? How do you eat it? Thanks, LindaLee

just like any other hot cereal - mix with water or a milk (or milk-sub) and heat. on the stove or in the microwave. (the box should have instructions as well.) I think I used 1/4 cup quinoa flakes to 1 cup liquid, but it might be a bit less liquid than that.

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