Shocking Story #2

[plantime]

This has turned into a most interesting discussion.

I can see both points of view.

Now I have to let them sink into my brain and ferment for a while.

Thanks for the food for thought.

[CarlaB]

You made some good points Fiddle-Faddle. People do have free will, and I, too, do not believe everything is predestined. God does give gifts and answers prayers. Maybe he doesn't answer the prayer for someone to be healed every time (miracles do happen!), or some other specific prayer every time, but as Cindy has said, he can provide comfort and the will to go on. He can also put the right people in your path. God has a hand in things, but people are ultimately responsible for doing or not doing. The intelligence of the lawyer comes from God, but his knowledge and training come from him responding to the gift.

Steve, I'm sure you're right that what I said is not going through most people's heads right now, it was more a thought from the perspective of the sole survivor. I'd be thinking, why was I spared, and I'd be giving God credit, too. I am a believer ... if I weren't sure, however, I'd rather believe and be wrong, than not believe and be wrong. And if I were a loved one of someone who died, I would not be offended at all that the sole survivor was giving God credit for his life.

[concerned-mom061]

I want to say that I think everyone made good points. But, let me clarify some things. First, I am all for helping others just as I have had others help me. Never did I mean that God being my reason for winning would not allow me to tell others what facts and what people helped me win. I am more than willing to talk to anyone that wants to talk to me. I feel we should always share our experiences w/others.

I will stick to my statement that God is the reason that I got my baby back. If anyone wants to talk to me further, I will gladly go into further detail. However, I don't think I could write it the way I would want it taken.

As far as how I would be reacting if I had not won my baby back yesterday.........I have been in that place 2 times before. I went to court twice before the hearing yesterday, and I walked away from both of them w/out my daughter. However, my attitude never changed regarding my faith in God. I will admit that in the beginning I did not understand it.....I did not understand why I had lost my baby. But, over time I felt God's purpose for this horrific event was being revealed to me in a positive way. My eyes were opened to things I had not seen before and I met people that I would not have met otherwise....people that I can maybe help.

What happened in my case yesterday was a huge milestone for accused MSBP moms all around the world!!

My case may help thousands of mom's that are going through what I did.

I hate that I had to lose my baby, and she had to suffer.....but I accept the fact that sometimes bad things happen for good reasons.

I feel we go through things in our lives and learn lessons....maybe even teach about them one day........that will stick with us forever. It does seem that we often remember the negative things in our lives over the good. We remember the pain and hurt that was felt, and know we never want to go through those things again. Sometimes...it takes a terrible thing to get something through to us that we've been missing before.

As far as the statement that we make our own choices......yes, we do. We are responsible for the actions we take. However, that doesn't mean God isn't part of that. I act in areas where I feel God has told me to, and I try to avoid areas I feel I am not meant to be. God can tell us things all day long, but it's up to us to open our hearts and listen!! Just as the old saying goes.."You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Also, I have already said that I will gladly give credit where credit is due. I did have a good lawyer, and I did have a good judge.....but does that mean that God is not a part of their live as well? Whose to say that those people don't feel that God guided them and helped them?! We don't know where they put their trust or what they believe in.

I am not saying that one should pray and do nothing more. I am saying that one should give their burdens to the Lord, allow Him to give us comfort and strength, and allow Him to guide us while we put our complete faith in Him. No one should expect to ask God for something and then just sit and wait and do nothing in the process. We should ask God for help, and then act appropriately. God has to use normal people just like you and me to do His deeds for Him. We just have to be willing to accpet the answer when it is given.

As to the mom's that I give this advice to and they follow and still lose their children....don't worry....everything WILL work out when it is supposed to. We never know what the future brings, and nothing is ever lost until we give up ourselves. Life is not always going to be easy. We will endure our share of hard times......it's what we make of those times that is the real test. Am I saying that I believe only good people that believe in God will prevail? No, I am not saying that. I can only tell people what has worked for me for the past 22 years of my life. I have never once in my life given something completely to the Lord w/reassurance that He would take the matter into His hands, and found that I was let down. There may have been times when things didn't turn out the way I had 1st intended for them to be....but I've always found that things always have a way of working themselves out in a way that makes my life better in the end.

So, yes, I will give God all the honor He deserves for what has happened to me. Just as I will give honor to those individuals that helped me after I asked God to do so, and He led them my way somehow. I'm not debating whether or not God exists to you people or anyone else......all that matters is that He exists to me, and I will give my testimony to those who want to hear it and take from it what they will. I'm not asking anyone to do what I've done.....all I ask is that you listen....then do what you feel is best for you!

[AndreaB]

So, yes, I will give God all the honor He deserves for what has happened to me. Just as I will give honor to those individuals that helped me after I asked God to do so, and He led them my way somehow. I'm not debating whether or not God exists to you people or anyone else......all that matters is that He exists to me, and I will give my testimony to those who want to hear it and take from it what they will. I'm not asking anyone to do what I've done.....all I ask is that you listen....then do what you feel is best for you!

Your whole statement was very well stated.....I just copied a part of it. I am a believer and don't understand everything that happens, but do trust that God is in control even when our lives our spinning out of control. I also respect those who do not believe the same way I do. We all are free to choose if we believe in a higher being or nothing.

[GFBetsy]

Yet another thread goes religious!

I don't suppose the lawyer and expert witness had anything to do with this?

Must have been god who was too busy crashing a plane so that he could miraculously save one suvivor when they took the child away?

I guess since its all down to god then sharing the information with other mothers in the same situation to help them is pointless.

Just thought it was funny that the thread became more religious AFTER the comment by "the athiest"!

[lindalee]

Cindy...

I think its far more important to consider what a mom like yourself who knows she is not guilty who reads this thread would think if she submits to god and then the child is still taken away.

I'm sure prayer can be a great comfort for many but what I'm saying is consider how someone would feel if not only they find the legal process stinks (guilt till proven innocent) but that they are somehow being punished by god?

Its all in the wording.... if you believe prayer helps then fine but please don't make it seem like it is the deciding factor... I'm pleased for concerned_mom and I really hope things go well for you... but if people put all their support in prayer and it doesn't work what do they have left...

Sorry but I doubt that is what is going through the minds of MOST of the parents and loved ones who died...

The survivor saying its a miracle god saved him is not going to help ....

If you want to see why then change the survivor to saying he survived "because Allah saved him...because he is a good muslim" or because "Shiva intervened ...because he was a pious Hindu"

gfp, everyone is different. I can tell you have a good heart by the way you poured your heart out with your advice. Each of us have different gifts and yours might be more analytical than others. Sometimes when a person is going through trama it is difficult to act and some of us find strength in prayer. When you have a relationship with the Lord you just talk to him, that's all. He is my best friend is the best way I can explain it. He has been very good to me and sacrificed everything. Today, or Sept. 2, 2005 I buried my oldest son. Yes, I hate that happened. I did not want that to happen. It is difficult. I don't know why this happened but I do know that God thought this was best because I know He loved him even more than me.

I don't exactly know how to explain it - it's just faith. Friends are staying with me this weekend and they lost their son also. They used to play together as children and we know they are in heaven together. They also believed. My mother was hit by a car and I lost her. I don't know why. I think maybe something worse might have happened to her and that is why he took her. I feel like when I get to heaven I will find out.

[gfp]

Just thought it was funny that the thread became more religious AFTER the comment by "the athiest"!

The point was already better explained by fiddle-faddle.

Before the hearing the talk was of lawyers, legal process, expert witnesses and prayers....

After the hearing it turned into prayers, prayers and prayers.

[Nic]

Cindy...

I think its far more important to consider what a mom like yourself who knows she is not guilty who reads this thread would think if she submits to god and then the child is still taken away.

I

How many of us, after hearing a loved one was terminally (sp?) ill, prayed to God for their recovery. And in the end they died anyway. We do not feel as though God did not spare our loved one for any bad reason. It was just their time. My father died of a brain tumor a year ago this October and you can bet your life we were praying for the entire year that he survive, but he didn't. We don't feel God didn't help us. He just couldn't. Coming from someone who is not very religious (I like scientific proof for everything) prayer gives comfort when things are bad. Thats all there is to it. I don't believe these mothers stopped fighting and relied only on prayer. That would have been a mistake, praying and not fighting.

Nicole

[krisb]

Bree,

I'm very happy you got your child back. i can't imagine losing my child like that especially when they are sick and need you most. Congratulations.

I have a bipolar daughter and every time i take her to a new therapist or Dr. we get accused of abuse or molestation because of her behavior. The state was sent for an investigation to my home. I was devistated that I was going to lose all my kids because of one uneducated therapist. It hurt so bad. Thankfully they saw the kids were fine and I didn't have to go through what you did. I don't know how I would get through that.

[concerned-mom061]

I'm sorry to hear about all of the people that lost loved ones.....about the mother that almost lost her kids due to a doctor that made false accusations. I, too, lost my mother last year...one month before my baby girl was born. I was my mother's baby girl, and I needed her as much as she needed me. I now have custody of my two 12 year old brothers. I lost my faith in the Lord, for I was bitter. However, when my daughter was taken from me...I realized what I had done. I went to our 1st hearing on the day my mother died 1 year ago. My faith is now stronger than it has ever been. When I look at all the things I've gone through, and all the hard times my daughter has gone through starting w/spending most of her life in a hospital and almost dying several times and now w/her being taken away from us for 30 days, and I am thankful my mother did not have to endure those hard times w/me. Though, it would have made things easier for me.....it would have been too much on her. So, that is one good thing that came out of something terrible.

Thanks again for everyone's support...including you gfp. I am blessed to have met you all. I hope I can somehow return the favor!!

Bree

[GFBetsy]

The point was already better explained by fiddle-faddle.

Before the hearing the talk was of lawyers, legal process, expert witnesses and prayers....

After the hearing it turned into prayers, prayers and prayers.

Wasn't trying to offend . . . I was just giggling and thought I'd share it.

[gfp]

Wasn't trying to offend . . . I was just giggling and thought I'd share it.

I'm not offended really I'm just more concerned with others reading the end of the thread.... who might not have the same level of faith but still rely on it and to have been told elsewhere that god is punishing them.

Again its best to give a personal experience I guess to illustrate this.

After my mother was diagnosed her priest told her that her celiac was a punishment from god and that he was testing her faith in transubstantiation. I have known this priest since I was 9-10 and he was a pretty nice guy ... indeed he's the one put me into a church school which itself led to a whole load of other problems but .. I still think he was mostly a good guy.

So my mother got to thinking that her whole life (which had been linked to celaic though she didn't know it) was one big punishment .. its a long story involving a hysterectomy and early menopause brought on by this and .....

From my way of thinking if someone who has lost their kids reads the end of this thread then the message seems to be that god gave back the child because ... well it was his purpose.

A lof of people loose their faith through things like this... (and I can't beleive I'm saying this) but that's not a good thing....

I'm not opposed to people having faith but I don't think faith should be something you adhere to because you are scared of the consequences... it should be through free choice and I equally don't think loosing your faith through a bitter experience is a good way to loose your faith....I personally don't see loosing faith as a bad thing though I acknowledge most of you do... but perhaps that is why I see a difference in loosing your faith over a bitter experience as bad as opposed to a simple analytical reason which I personally think is good.

If you discount for a moment that I think its good... then just try and see that soe ways are worse than others!

Its like chicken pox... sometimes it is good for kids to get chicken pox as kids... but when otherwise healthy and not vulnerable.... but someone who has lost a baby is already very vulnerable. ????

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Nicely illustrated, gfp--although I'm sad that your mother went through that.. How awful for her!

I always find it very upsetting when Person #1 tell others with great confidence what God's plans or motives are for Person #2. I don't doubt #1's own relationship with God--but God's relationship with #2 just might be entirely different--and #1 is not part of that relationship unless invited by #2 AND God!

[AndreaB]

I agree with fiddle-faddle gfp. Nice post......very sorry for what your mother had to go through.

I have made friends on this site that don't believe the way I do, which is just fine. We don't push each other's beliefs on each other and are comfortable with that. This board has helped me a lot in this area. I think a lot of it comes down to the comfort level of allowing others to make their own choices, even if our beliefs don't agree with what they are doing. That is everyone's personal choice. I didn't use to feel that way.....maybe it's growth for me. Thank you for putting the other perspective out there. As a christian believer I also believe in prayer, but prayer is not an idle thing. We are to do our part (all that is physically possible) which it sounds like concerned mom and gcbec have been doing, and what you have brought up as important....and it is very important. I have enjoyed a lot of your insights on other threads btw.

[penguin]

*sigh* there was no reason for this thread to get heated

[CarlaB]

Again its best to give a personal experience I guess to illustrate this.

After my mother was diagnosed her priest told her that her celiac was a punishment from god and that he was testing her faith in transubstantiation.

How can a priest have such poor formation???? Ugh. I had to talk someone into the fact that yes, they have celiac and cannot receive the Host ... yes, we do believe that the Host is Christ, but the problem is that he took on the form of bread, which has gluten. It's not a test of faith, nor a punishment! Suffering, it is that, that's for sure! I agree, gfp, it is a shame when someone loses their faith over bad experience or another's poor formation. And, it's definately a free choice.

Fiddle-Faddle, good point. I don't like that either. I think that everyone is on their own journey ....

Chelsea, I don't necessarily think it got heated, I think everyone did a good job this time of talking about religion and still respecting others positions! I just think that whenever the subject of religion comes up with those of differing beliefs, that there is conflict, but as long as it's with respect, we can all learn from each other. I mean, I disagree completely with gfp on the existence of God, yet I agree with some things he says and respect where he's coming from, and enjoy chatting with him ... it's just that in these discussion we all need to remember that it's fine to put your ideas out there, but it's not something everyone is going to agree on ... and it's our differences that makes this world interesting!

Steve, just curious, was it an Anglican priest or a Catholic priest? I grew up Anglican/Episcopal, but converted to being Catholic in 1990. My grandfather's parents came over here from London, so our family has an Anglican background, sort of.

[GFBetsy]

I'm not opposed to people having faith but I don't think faith should be something you adhere to because you are scared of the consequences... it should be through free choice and I equally don't think loosing your faith through a bitter experience is a good way to loose your faith....I personally don't see loosing faith as a bad thing though I acknowledge most of you do... but perhaps that is why I see a difference in loosing your faith over a bitter experience as bad as opposed to a simple analytical reason which I personally think is good.

If you discount for a moment that I think its good... then just try and see that soe ways are worse than others!

I always find it very upsetting when Person #1 tell others with great confidence what God's plans or motives are for Person #2. I don't doubt #1's own relationship with God--but God's relationship with #2 just might be entirely different--and #1 is not part of that relationship unless invited by #2 AND God!

gfp -

I'm glad you posted that longer explanation of your feelings. I'm also glad that I hadn't offended you, because I truly didn't mean to.

I don't think that I could explain all my feelings here . . . it would take me a long time and would probably hijack the thread . . . but I do understand your statement that some ways of losing faith are worse than others. It is emotionally much more scarring for people's faith to be damaged through other's ill-meant or unintended accusations/statements of belief. But I think that for one's faith to be crippled by another's statement (as your mother's was) there has to be a level of trust/understanding between the two people. To continue with your mother's example, she was wounded because it was her PRIEST that told her that celiac was a punishment. If I had wandered up to her and told her the same thing, her reaction would probably been to blow me off because I had no credibility with her to make such an accusation (just as a CPS caseworker would have blown me off if I had made accusations of MSBP (to return to the topic of the thread )). As fiddle-faddle put it, the statement by the priest was more damaging because your mother probably felt that #1 (the priest) HAD been invited into her (#2's) relationship with God, both by herself and God.

I agree with your contention that someone who had already received such a condemnation from an authority they trusted would be sensitized to other's reactions in such a situation. It is more likely that someone who has been hurt would be likely to read the flip-side of statements in praise of God. (I mean, simplistically, that when someone writes: "God loves us and that's why I got my kids back" someone who is already feeling shaky in their belief may interpret that as: "God doesn't love me, and that's why I didn't get my kids back.")

But there is always the chance (in fact, a likelihood) that someone is listening/reading who has been hurt in the past. Does that mean that no one should be free to express gratitude? As far as I can tell, no one was trying to heap coals on the heads of those who were already hurting. They were simply expressing their own feelings of joy. And I don't think it is right to pretend that no good things ever happen to anyone just so that those who HAVE experienced bad things won't have anything to compare themselves to. (That is taking your argument to an extreme that you didn't necessarily mean, but it explains my point.)

Oops. Hijacked the thread anyway. But I wasn't as long-winded as I might have been

Also, as I reread this I realized that I sound a little more intense than I meant to sound. I just find this a serious subject, and can't be light-hearted about it. I am feeling no animosity, just a desire to explain my own viewpoint clearly.

[gfp]

How can a priest have such poor formation???? Ugh. I had to talk someone into the fact that yes, they have celiac and cannot receive the Host ... yes, we do believe that the Host is Christ, but the problem is that he took on the form of bread, which has gluten. It's not a test of faith, nor a punishment! Suffering, it is that, that's for sure! I agree, gfp, it is a shame when someone loses their faith over bad experience or another's poor formation. And, it's definately a free choice.

Fiddle-Faddle, good point. I don't like that either. I think that everyone is on their own journey ....

Chelsea, I don't necessarily think it got heated, I think everyone did a good job this time of talking about religion and still respecting others positions! I just think that whenever the subject of religion comes up with those of differing beliefs, that there is conflict, but as long as it's with respect, we can all learn from each other. I mean, I disagree completely with gfp on the existence of God, yet I agree with some things he says and respect where he's coming from, and enjoy chatting with him ... it's just that in these discussion we all need to remember that it's fine to put your ideas out there, but it's not something everyone is going to agree on ... and it's our differences that makes this world interesting!

Steve, just curious, was it an Anglican priest or a Catholic priest? I grew up Anglican/Episcopal, but converted to being Catholic in 1990. My grandfather's parents came over here from London, so our family has an Anglican background, sort of.

He sadly died a few years ago but he was an Anglican priest but very very close to catholic .... (latin in services and even confession) ... but seriously he was a nice guy.. he just believed this was the reason... but he was nominally Anglican but attended a lot of catholic seminaries with the blessing of his bishop whom I also used to know.

How can a priest have such poor formation????

He's a priest not a MD!

I agree, gfp, it is a shame when someone loses their faith over bad experience or another's poor formation. And, it's definately a free choice.

Do you mean formation as in French? (=training)

anyway... the point I really want to make is although I personally view religious faith as misguided I would much rather see someone continue with their faith and be happy than loose it over a bitter experience....and be miserable for the rest of thier life.

Perhaps being outside gives me a different perspective .....?

Its the same in the other direction.... if someone is coerced or threatened to convert then what does that mean? Threatening to kill someone unless they convert or recant is not the point.... and even I as a non beleiver can see that!

For instance I have many Muslim friends who have urged me to convert to Christianity... not a single one has ever suggested I convert to Islam because they believe I will still be saved as a Christian or at least judged on my merits.

What the priest said was really like this... he wasn't a bad person he was a good person but IMHO misguided in more than one area.... and he wanted to save my mother for the sin of divorce.

[GFBetsy]

and he wanted to save my mother for the sin of divorce.

"For" the sin of divorce? Or "from" the sin of divorce?

[CarlaB]

Yes, formation as in training ... religious formation. His mistake was with religion, not medicine, which is what I was referring to -- when he said it was a punishment from God and a test of whether your mother believed in transubstantiation. A priest should know that the Host keeps the appearance of bread, and the properties of bread, even after the consecration. I didn't mean to imply that he should understand the disease.

I know that many of the Anglican Churches look more like Catholic Churches in England than some Catholic Churches in the USA do!! My mother calls herself an "Anglo-Catholic", so she's basically Anglican, but believes in a lot of the Catholic stuff. So, it wasn't a very big change for me, but it was heretical to her that I converted.

I have a feeling you and I could have a very interesting discussion on religion, but I'm afraid no one other than you and I would enjoy it too much. We'll have to save it for if we ever meet in person.

[barbara3675]

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about the "Shocking Story" mothers and how to help them instead of just ANOTHER discussion about the use of wafers in communon or not? I don't tune in everyday as I don't have time, but I have tried to follow the poor mom's and their stories. When I came back to this today, it was only about religion, how come? This issue is NEVER going to be settled or understood between Catholics and those that are not. I think we need to stay on topic for a particular thread especially something as important at this one.

[GFBetsy]

Concerned_Mom -

I saw you on here a little while ago . . . if you've got time (which I understand you might not have, as you've got a little one to take care of again) I was just wondering if you could give more info on how your trial went . .. you mentioned that there were some very positive things that had happened . .. I wondered how the judgement went, what the judge's opinion was, etc.

Like I said, if you have time.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

It's not like anyone suddenly hijacked the thread--it was a relatively smooth and relevant transition from the moms to religion. If the moms in question would like us to start another thread, then I would wholeheartely concur, but as things stand now, many of us are either enjoying this discussion or at least getting something out of it. And I haven't seen any discussion about wafers here.

You could always skip this part of the thread if you like...

[gfp]

I have a feeling you and I could have a very interesting discussion on religion, but I'm afraid no one other than you and I would enjoy it too much. We'll have to save it for if we ever meet in person.

Actually the priest was also a interesting person to talk to....

The thing is it ran a bit deeper than divorce but I'm not going into details of my mom's sex-life here

Both of you....

If you want I will set you up a website where you can help share this with other moms and also post things like cases you find oput about....

I hope both of you keep up the good work after you get your kids back... so if either of you or both want I can make you a website (obviously for free - hope I don't need to say that) where you can post items to help out people I the same situation....

Just drop me a pm and I can make one in a few hours and help you get started.

[GFBetsy]

The thing is it ran a bit deeper than divorce but I'm not going into details of my mom's sex-life here

Oops! Didn't mean to pry!