How Not Feel Guilty Going From Eating Strict Vegetarian Diet To Eating Some Meat...

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May I just say I'm amazed by the brilliance of the posts in this thread?! Nuanced arguments backed by fascinating, careful research... amazing. I hope the gluten-free diet makes me so smart

I used to think I knew a thing or two about amino acids, etc. but dare not post a word on that stuff here after reading the previous posts.

Go ahead... my knowledge was somewhat gained accidentally more than anything.

My BSc. dissertation involved balancing the chemistry of rocks according to trace elements and it involved writing a program to do this on lots of samples. At the same time I was a typical undiagnosed skinny celiac trying hard to put on weight and I was sharing a house with 3 bio-med students and just happened to meet someone who started me on the right track. Oh and my girlfriend was vegetarian.

I also about a year earlier was walking home from uni and bought a candy bar (mars bar in England) and got home feeling thoroughly sick realising I had actually eaten two. I spent my money for dinner and didn't want dinner. So fro that day I stopped eating all candy and started on my limited budget to buy food for its nutritional value.

At least partly out of curiousity I changed the program to use a 'norm' of pork flesh (finding the actual comp of human was hard even in a university library!) and plug in the composition of different foods instead of rocks.

Later i became a specialist in organic geochemistry (the (de)composition of dead beasties and how to link them to the oil they produce)... all rather accidentally this linked up with amino acid and fatty acid compositions.

Instead I'll offer some humble advice as a vegetarian (2 years) turned vegan (3 years) then ovo-lacto-pesco vegetarian again (7 years) who since my celiac disease diagnosis a month ago (and cutting out dairy and soy) is now eating chicken, turkey and fish.

1) We are, from an evolutionary perspective, undoubtably carnivores.

2) Eating "happy" meats is good karma. As far as I'm concerned, animal flesh *ought* to be frighteningly expensive to eat.

3) The moral and environmental impact of eating flesh foods in reasonable amounts (reasonable meaning enough to live, i.e. no where near the amounts typically consumed in the U.S.) does not even approach the moral and environmental damage of my other vices (plane travel several times a year, riding in buses or cars several times a week, trading up my electronic devices every few years, etc.)

4) One way I've found to mitigate my guilt/reluctance/disgust about consuming flesh foods is to buy "happy" meat (organic, free range, etc.) from local folks at my local farmer's market. This way I engage in an ongoing relationship with people who truly care about what they do and who do it on a small and humane scale. Buying locally significantly reduces, I would argue, my environmental and moral culpability.

And finally... not an argument but... last night I was asking my better half, who brought home a bit of (ruinously expensive) turkey from the local co-op if the bird was "happy" turkey. "Sure," was the reply, "this turkey was so happy it laughed all the way to the bank and then with the proceeds sent its kids to a good college. At this price point, the turkey had better be happy!"

Yep I think it makes sense to eat a smaller quantity of good quality naturally healthy meat ...

I think the difference is most people seem to see meat eating as binary on/off.

Its like a meal isn't a meal without meat..... if you ask someone what they ate for instance it nearly always starts off with the meat .. like we had roast turkey with.....

In another way it is just like fast food.... if you eat a burger and fries once a month then its unlikely to really do any harm but eating more than once a week starts to. I think the easiest thing most people could do is just cut down on having meat with every meal and spend more on free range organic meats as a treat.

I am amazed at the number of vegetarians/former vegetarians here!

I think many celiacs develop mild eating disorders and are fussy eaters because we instinctively 'know' that out illness is caused by something we eat, we obviously just don't know what it is.

I don't have anything against vegetarian diets per-se its just like as eKatherine said earlier I have yet to meet one who actually does balance up proteins and I have met many who substitute soya directly for meat.

[eKatherine 5]

I have seen it said here in this thread several times that Americans eat obscene amounts of meat or excessive amounts of meat, and I'd like to know what that is based on, besides the movie "Supersize me" or the generalization, oft-repeated on pro-vegan sites on the web, that "Americans eat 4 times as much meat as they should".

I started keeping a food diary and analyzing my intake numbers (am I obsessive or what?) in an effort to help control my weight. My goal is to eat less than 35% protein, so I'm eating the recommended amount. Doing this while eating 1100 calories a day means I'm eating far more meat than anyone I know, even those eating twice as much food as I am.

Years ago I was lifting weights, and I went through a period of time where I tried to double my intake of protein. At the time I was consuming probably 1800 calories a day, but I was unable to eat that much meat. It is hard! There is little room for anything else in the diet, even if one consumes fat-free supplements. Nobody eats a diet like that accidentally. It does not seem remotely normal.

While there may be a subculture eating giant steaks in restaurants twice daily, I rather doubt that many people do this. I don't know of one. Most restaurants I know of do serve large portions, but much of what is on the plate is wheat-based. Most people I know eat wheat as their meals three times a day (or eat wheat-based snacks instead of meals), and a large portion of meat is a rarity.

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I have seen it said here in this thread several times that Americans eat obscene amounts of meat or excessive amounts of meat, and I'd like to know what that is based on, besides the movie "Supersize me" or the generalization, oft-repeated on pro-vegan sites on the web, that "Americans eat 4 times as much meat as they should".

I started keeping a food diary and analyzing my intake numbers (am I obsessive or what?) in an effort to help control my weight. My goal is to eat less than 35% protein, so I'm eating the recommended amount. Doing this while eating 1100 calories a day means I'm eating far more meat than anyone I know, even those eating twice as much food as I am.

Years ago I was lifting weights, and I went through a period of time where I tried to double my intake of protein. At the time I was consuming probably 1800 calories a day, but I was unable to eat that much meat. It is hard! There is little room for anything else in the diet, even if one consumes fat-free supplements. Nobody eats a diet like that accidentally. It does not seem remotely normal.

While there may be a subculture eating giant steaks in restaurants twice daily, I rather doubt that many people do this. I don't know of one. Most restaurants I know of do serve large portions, but much of what is on the plate is wheat-based. Most people I know eat wheat as their meals three times a day (or eat wheat-based snacks instead of meals), and a large portion of meat is a rarity.

I base this on quite a few things but Supersize me obviously does exert some influence.

Firstly my girlfriend is American and visits family frequently in the US. From her definition of being a "naturalised" European culturally the amount of meat eaten is exceptional... along with the frequency of it.

Secondly I have a lot of American friends, I had this conversation with one and he cannot accept a "meal" without meat is a meal. I have had the same conversation with many of them and though they view a vegetarian meal as a meal they still consistently say that they are accustomed to eating a lot more meat at each meal and eating meat with every meal.

Thirdly, When I'm eating out with friends I rarely speak English .... mainly because the only place a really trust the owners don't speak English so even eating out with my usual suspects (all three American) we speak French out of politeness.

My girlfriend and best friend have no detectable accent, even for a French teacher. Actually Fred has a Normandy accent in French and my girlfriend Parisien. Fred's wife Lauren speaks better French than me but has a detectable accent... my accent is "foreign and a French teacher can spot its English but most French just guess I'm not French and most non French who don't speak very good French would never know I'm English!

Anyway... very frequently when eating out we hear Americans (I might even say perhaps some Albertans though I'm confident I can tell the difference having lived in Alberta for 6 months) and it is certainly not rare (pun intended) for Americans to complain about the size of a steak.... and then go onto a whole rant about how they haven't had a decent sized steak or burger since they arrived.

The average size of a steak in Paris is probably about 250-300g. (8.8-10.1 oz) .. I just actually looked in my fridge... The average Parisian would probably have this and at lunch perhaps something with 1-2 slices of ham almost noone would ever eat 10oz meat twice in a day except perhaps special occaisions.

At the time I was consuming probably 1800 calories a day, but I was unable to eat that much meat. It is hard! There is little room for anything else in the diet, even if one consumes fat-free supplements. Nobody eats a diet like that accidentally. It does not seem remotely normal.

Seriously when I was 18-21 and undiagnosed and trying to gain weight for kickboxing I was eating 8000-9000 calories per day.... of mainly protein. Of course you can't just eat this.....

Its not easy to do but it can be done. I'm certainly not saying its healthy.... and today it would probably have me ill and bedridden in a week!

100g net (small can tuna) is 300 calories and a bit more (simple under estimate is just use 3KCal/g for protein and carbs) and breakfast would be 6 eggs and 2 cans of tuna washed down with a shake.

typical 10:30 break 2 cans of tuna or 300g pot of cottage cheese

lunch meat sandwiches (back in pre diag days.....) at the beginning of lunch and then a meal before the end.

3-4PM... same sort of thing again.... pint of milk with added protein shake.

5PM carbs, perhaps a couple of burgers from McDo on the way to the gym...

6-10PM gym...

beer, kebabs and get home and have protein shake and 6 eggs.

Now I eat (Yesterday) 1 can tuna in oil with some corn and onions oil mainly drained... 1x grapefruit... 120g of steak on a skewer (half of the 240g steak I shared) with some rice and vegetables...at 6PM and a yogourt and smoothie later on.

Today (1PM here) I have been up since 8 and have eaten nothing ... At 2:30 I'll have some grilled veg (zuccini eggplant and boiled artichokes on rice... that's as far as I have planned!)

[eKatherine 5]

I think that Americans who travel abroad are not typical. They are the big spenders, and they expect to treat themselves to expensive (read: meat-heavy) meals all the time when abroad. I have never eaten much in expensive restaurants, but most of the price range I do go in rarely have even an 8 ounce steak on the menu, which cuts into your nourishment when the only other thing you can get off the menu is a salad.

Don't anybody suggest chicken breasts, I hate them.

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I think that Americans who travel abroad are not typical. They are the big spenders, and they expect to treat themselves to expensive (read: meat-heavy) meals all the time when abroad. I have never eaten much in expensive restaurants, but most of the price range I do go in rarely have even an 8 ounce steak on the menu, which cuts into your nourishment when the only other thing you can get off the menu is a salad.

Yes but firstly I don't think you are an average anything... and I think you care about quality of food far more than the average American. Whereas cheaper places might not have over an 8oz steak they probably do have 8oz burgers and I think a lot of people do expect to eat meat twice a day.

Also the 8oz steak or burger in France is not a regular dietry item, this is what you expect for a steak when eating out - I bought an 8oz steak yesterday because i was cooking for 2 people and wanted the width of the steak to make kebab/brochette and a normal 4oz steak is too thin and I didn't have time to go to a real butcher as I was on my way back from the lab .... This is somethng people might eat once a week or once a month (excepting the fast food craze) ... a normal portion is closer to 4oz of meat and perhaps 1-2oz at lunch on a sandwich...

The other thing is a sandwich in France is not like a sub.... its not even close.. you are lucky to get two layers of thinly sliced meat ... one of the biggest chains is actually changing its lines right NOW...

http://www.paul.fr/produits/fr_sandwichs.htm

As you can see, the roast beef still isn't a subway but they are copying the heavy with meat style in competition to the rise in fast food from burgers etc.

This is a normal sandwich....(OK its swiss but first one I found on google images)

http://www.pouly-tradition.ch/article.php3?id_article=104

I dread to mention supersize again but I don't think this is all that inaccurate in the fact the portion sizes have been steadily increased over the last 20yrs... like the new McDo .. I read in an English paper they have a new 1/2 lb burger (they don't list on the McDo website for some reason) and the add goes something like they try and put in lettuce and it won't fit...

Don't anybody suggest chicken breasts, I hate them.

Even stuffed with blue cheese and garlic with some sage and wrapped in Speck or Parma ham.... wrapped in foil with some wine and ....

[CarlaB 22]

Even stuffed with blue cheese and garlic with some sage and wrapped in Speck or Parma ham.... wrapped in foil with some wine and ....

Okay, after I get my kitchen redone next summer, you and your girlfriend are coming over to teach me to cook!! Actually, I'm a great cook, but it's all just "normal" not fancy but it is stuff from scratch.

I've read that the "proper" amount of protein for a meal is the size of your hand minus the fingers. I think most Americans eat more than that for dinner, but not for the other two meals.

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Okay, after I get my kitchen redone next summer, you and your girlfriend are coming over to teach me to cook!! Actually, I'm a great cook, but it's all just "normal" not fancy stuff from scratch.

I've read that the "proper" amount of protein for a meal is the size of your hand minus the fingers. I think most Americans eat more than that for dinner, but not for the other two meals.

It'll have to be my girlfriend since I don't have a biometric passport and will never get one so unless the US changes its rules I won't be coming any time soon.... My girlfriend on the other hand has an American passport so doesn't need a biometric one. Believe me I have 20-30 friends in the US from top to bottom and East to West who I would love to visit... Ive got offers of beach houses in Cape Cod to Florida, town houses in Boston, Chicago, W-DC and NYC ... and mansions in Puerto Rico and Seattle ... but every time I think about it I end up in Canada, Mexico or somewhere else where I also have lots of offers.

Anyway... on to the recipee because this is DEAD EASY.....and "normal" just depends where your from... A good thanksgiving dinner or meatloaf is a complex as most stuff....

Just open up the breast like a butterfly (its usually assymetric) and cut out the tendon

Obviously garlic "to taste" but 1 clove per breast is fine.... (a big breast should do 2 people easily)

A bit of celery salt (unless you're allergic) and just a tiny amount of Dijon mustard (so thin you can hardly see it)

and some preferably fresh sage, stalks removed (or tarragon) and blue cheese.. again to taste.... depends on type and availability and taste again!

NO SALT.... (this comes from the cheese and

Now just put it back together and wrap it in course cut parma ham or speck (bacon will work)

Stick it on foil (actually I usually do it all on the foil to save mess) and pour over bit of olive oil and a dry white wine (1/4 cup) (turn up corners to prevent it leaking) sprinkle some option extra finely chopped sage on outside .. roll over and sprinkle... again... then wrap it in the foil and stick it in a medium oven 20-25 mins...

That's almost it....

Now drain the foil .. stick the joice into a saucepan and test it..(its cooked so its safe) at this point you can add more cheese and more wine.or mustard.. and simmer this until extra cheese dissolves and wine looses alcohol...

Meanwhile the chicken should be back in in a shallow casserole and the heat a bit higher for about 3 mins then turn over for further 3 ... the idea is the ham is just starting to crisp....

Pull it out and add a tiny bit of corn starch already mixed into water and make the sauce.

I like to serve with mashed carrots and turnip (3/4 and 1/4) with butter and sour cream.... and black pepper

if you are cooking for 4-6 then you can be real fancy....

Instead of butterlying the breast you just add them on top.. piece with a knife to push in the stuffing and tie it up with kitchen string (not synthetic) to serve you carve into circles about 1/2" thick .... and pour over the gravy....

This works equally well with salmon... except make sure to use tarragon not sage.... and omit blue cheese for a soft cream cheese.

[CarlaB 22]

Sounds delicious. I can't have the cheese though

I reread my post (I edited it already), I do cook from scratch, but cooking for 8 every night, it's never something fancy. This chicken sounds great, thanks for posting the recipe ... now what can be used for the blue cheese? I wonder how well asparagus would work? Of course, then you'd probably want to use basil instead of sage ...

Sounds like you have more interesting places to go than Ohio!!

[gfp 0]

Sounds delicious. I can't have the cheese though

I reread my post (I edited it already), I do cook from scratch, but cooking for 8 every night, it's never something fancy. This chicken sounds great, thanks for posting the recipe ... now what can be used for the blue cheese? I wonder how well asparagus would work? Of course, then you'd probably want to use basil instead of sage ...

Sounds like you have more interesting places to go than Ohio!!

In that case .... I'd say (though haven't tried it) make a stuffing from gluten-free bread crumbs and sage ... use 4 large breasts and make it into a roll.... offset them slightly so when its rolled its like a spiral with the stuffing wrapped in the ham...

You can also add pine nuts ...

This sort of thing is really good for a treat... I do a similar one with pork filet in calvados and cider.

Its pretty similar I use apples or even dried apricots inside and add pistachio into the meat with a sharp knife...

Roll the whole thing up and add optionally a few cloves into the outside and tie it before frying with onions.... (preferably little baby silverskin ones)

When the outside is sealed take a 1/4 cup of calvados and flambe.... invite the family its fun {safety first... take it OFF the heat and use a long match or gas lighter to light it and have a damp teatowel ready just in case...} but seriously wear long sleeves .. it will flare and look spectacular BUT it always goes out .... just don't panic if you never flambeed before!

Now you can stick it in a casserole (you can't slow cook it else it will fall apart .. looses the visual effect) and stick it in the oven with a good dollop of cider (1/4 way up the filet) and the onions...

When its ready thicken the sauce as above... a little chicken stock can be added.

its honestly easy but its looks spectacualr when you carve it.... if I have guests I often do it in candlelight so they don't see what ehy have then they start asking how you got the apples and nuts inside

[CarlaB 22]

That sounds great, too! It's amazing how boring your recipes get when you cook for kids every meal.

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That sounds great, too! It's amazing how boring your recipes get when you cook for kids every meal.

I think we all stagnate into comfort foods.

As your kids get older they will become more adventurous food wise, specially if you keep expanding it...

seriously the pork flambee is a party piece.. used correctly you can have em clamouring for it just for the show while you and hubby can eat some non kiddy food

[CarlaB 22]

I think we all stagnate into comfort foods.

As your kids get older they will become more adventurous food wise, specially if you keep expanding it...

seriously the pork flambee is a party piece.. used correctly you can have em clamouring for it just for the show while you and hubby can eat some non kiddy food

When I get my energy back, I'll try it. The problem is, my kids love that kind of food!!! So, if I make it, they'll want it! That makes it much more time consuming to cook.

[eKatherine 5]

Even stuffed with blue cheese and garlic with some sage and wrapped in Speck or Parma ham.... wrapped in foil with some wine and ....

Regardless of what you do with them, they are drier than thighs, which is what I buy. And since I'm off dairy, there's no cream or cheese for me.

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Regardless of what you do with them, they are drier than thighs, which is what I buy. And since I'm off dairy, there's no cream or cheese for me.

I know what you mean .... chicken breast is the only part most people seem to eat (except wings but that's different)

and thighs are much tastier and juicier and CHEAPER too.....

However I find if you are doing breast wrapping it in foil and loads of wine really helps... (gives it some taste too which most people seem to miss out on eating only breast) same goes for stuffing as well... you need to make sure its really sealed so the moisture stays in .... and the stuffing adsobs the moisture and keeps it so its really like broiling from both sides.

In this particular case its handy to have the breasts and blander meat.and no bone.. I usually use thighs and especially drumsticks for meat for risotto etc. and everyone says how tasty and tender they are...??? of course I think that's why I use thighs so they go away and think they can improve the recipe by using breast???

Of course they can't... its less tasy and drier... but so many people only buy breast!

[eKatherine 5]

Breasts are better if you pound them into cutlets, bread, and pan-fry in a mix of butter and olive oil, but that does sort of eliminate them from being a low fat food.

I found if you skin and bone a thigh, you can pound it flat into a nice big cutlet, just like you can with a breast. I served them for my daughter and her boyfriend, and he was so impressed by how juicy the chicken "breast cutlets" were. Well of course...

[RiceGuy 55]

Well, I must say all the replies are quite interesting.

I notice that the reasons for people choosing not to eat meat tend to be more ethical/philosophical. Being kind to animals and such is fine, and I like the idea of a farm that uses natural methods to raise their animals. I don't really have any such "guilty" feelings or whatever to overcome though. My reasons for avoiding animal flesh is based on a general dissatisfaction with the quality of those products, and also the fact that I just feel better when I don't eat them. I won't argue with my body. If it tells me it does better without, then who am I to disagree? So it seems for me the animal proteins are not well tolerated like plant proteins.

I actually used to have eggs for breakfast often, and would eventually be eating about a dozen per week! Of course, my peanut butter was ever-present. Even while transitioning to a gluten-free diet, I occasionally tried some turkey or tuna, only to find it tasted disgusting, and the turkey smelled horrid. It would also make my skin reek for two or three days straight. Nobody else seemed to notice anything wrong with the bird. I concluded that my system was exuding whatever it didn't like every which way it could to get rid of it. Perhaps this was the leaky gut? I don't know. It was just a small amount too - like maybe 2-4 oz.

Now, again I'll point out that although I haven't ever eaten much meat, I have typically consumed a fair amount of protein. To give an idea of just how much, at the age of 6-7 is when I already consumed 3 peanut butter sandwiches for lunch. I was a midget-sized kid who would be taken as a 4 year old. My parents actually purchased peanut butter in bulk, and I'd consume it even faster, spreading it on as thick as it could be without oozing all over (ok, it oozed a lot). It was the natural peanut butter too, so no fillers or artificial junk. I'd often have a sandwich with my breakfast to help fill me (didn't work), the three for my lunch, then one or two for a snack after school, and if there was a banana available, I'd always look forward to a banana w/peanut butter, which I'd still most gladly do if I could tolerate the bananas better now. I do like apples and peanut butter, but unfortunately good fresh apples are hard to come by around here, and the peanut butter tends to slip off too easy. Maybe I should just chop up whatever fruits I can have into a bowl with peanut butter. That sounds good right about now too, so I may just do that.

Come to think of it, since I did find the culprit of my recent pains (nightshades), I may in fact be able to eat bananas without any problems. That would be a relief as well as a joy. It really gets me down when I find yet another food I can't eat.

It is probably worth pointing out that peanut butter is a good source of fat too. Given how I like to indulge on margarine and olive oil, I can easily see that I now am not getting as much fat as I did when I had the peanut butter and margarine. I dropped the margarine because it was the typical sort which I know isn't healthy, and I was starting to see the problems with casein, which it has. Good natural margarine is available, but the price is ridiculous. It's a shame too because it has no trans-fats or hydrogenated oils, etc. No dairy either, and I did try it so I know I tolerate it ok.

It's just too bad I was consuming MASSIVE quantities of wheat for so long. All those sandwiches, bagels/muffins with breakfast, and of course dinner wouldn't be dinner without a bread of some kind. Did I mention pasta? I honestly ate an entire pound every day for years! I thoroughly enjoyed spaghetti sandwiches too. Take a nice large chunk of that oh-so-soft Italian bread, slice it open and spread on a generous amount of margarine, then apply as much of the pasta as will fit. It's really good when the margarine is dripping while you eat it. This idea also works for mashed potato sandwiches.

As for the over-consumption of meat in the USA, I can say it's definitely true around here at least. All the restaurant commercials promote gobs of meat/gravy/animal fat like it was water. There are all-you-can-eat dinners all over town, and people pack into these places nightly. The average person in this area is grotesquely obese. Huge roles of flab hanging over their belts. The predominant pastime is getting drunk and eating all manner of beef, pork, BBQ meats, sausages, pizzas piled high with multiple layers of cheeses, two-foot submarine sandwiches, etc. The burger & fries fast food places always do brisk business too. Health food stores are virtually non-existent, and the one who manages to stay open operates in the red for awhile, then is forced to close. Maybe I'll record one of those aforementioned commercials and post it if there's someplace where I can upload it.

Now to address the protein/calcium/B12 issues, here's an interesting article on the subject. I was particularly surprised with the B12 info:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=d...ientexcessdefic

[Green Fingered Gaelic 0]

Being diagnosed age 2 I've never had the will to attempt a diet such as vegetarianism or vegenism. However I will say this, I respect those choices on ethical grounds. Go animal welfare.

I haven't had time to read all the wise replies you've allready recieved on this thread, though before I do I'd like to add this.

How much do vegans add to the debate on animal welfare. Nadda. By not eating meat they loose the vote. Thats just the way it is in this capitalistic society. You vote with your money. Democracy is about as real as santa.

At least by only purchasing quality meats you know haven't been produced in ways that compromise your ethics, you can sleep. Know this also, if you don't eat the chicken, it won't exist.

With any farm produce the farmer only wants to produce enough to satisfy demand. By buying the meat your are giving it the life it had. Purchasing from battery farms obvisiously creates a life of suffering for your food before you consume it, but buying high quality your ensuring thats the quality of its life.

Try some of the japenese beef. They massage the bull and give it beer to ensure the beef is nice and tender. Also when they slaughter they make sure the animal is the last one to know its dead.

Second last thing is this. Maybe being a celiac is a way our immune system is saying, hey we've been intensively producing this gluten protien for a while. thats not right. When we develop allergies from over intensifying poultry, pork and beef production I'll become vegetarian.

GFP

Oh and btw as an athiest I find your tag line offensive GFP. Even sword bearing catholic crusaders will cut you down if you say you don't believe their bull, even if your nice! I'm sorry to say it out loud, I think your (GFP) a great and wise guy. Love all the input, historically your passionate and well reasearched. but as an athiest I find that offensive.

peace

[CarlaB 22]

Riceguy, haven't I read on your posts that you are still trying to come to the bottom of your health concerns? I have been reading a lot about adrenal fatigue, and most of what I've read from you goes right along with it. I ate mostly vegetarian for years, so I know where you're coming from. However, not being able to tolerate meat well can be a sign of adrenal fatigue. Google adrenal fatigue and adrenal burnout, I think you'll find it interesting.

[paw 0]

I have not ever been vegan. Meat was served with dinner each day as I grew up, rarely with breakfast or lunch. The serving size of meat was about 4 oz. For a meat serving, think deck of cards or normal sized computer mouse.

Now that I am gluten-free, dairy free and avoid soy almost completely (I can't quite get away from all soybean oil yet) I NEED some meat each day. I don't digest beans well, they make me very sick so they are out too. I can manage a little nuts, but that will not replace the protein if I don't have the meat.

I eat very boring meals. I do not buy or bake gluten-free bread, so I have not had any peanut butter in a couple of years. I am not quite hungry enough to eat it plain from the jar and I have nothing to spread it on. (Bread went with dairy because all the supermarket breads also had milk) I eat organic whole chicken, roasted in the oven. I eat Piedmont beef which is very low fat and organic and similar to bison in nutrition. I eat an occasional small steak (deck of cards size when cooked) and quinoa, potato and rice and veggies and fruits. I do not eat pasta (any type) and I keep eggs to less than 2 a week. Most weeks I do not use any.

I also do not eat fish. I don't like it and where I live you can't get it fresh. I have issues with the contamination of fish and can't make myself eat it. I had tuna once last year and I could hardly make myself eat it because I found the taste so unpleasant. I can't afford to feel bad for eating the only protien in my day.

I know I should increase the protein amount I get daily. The meat contributes roughly 30 - 40 grams a day. It varies from the grains, quinoa has more than rice, but I don't know if I have had a 50 gram protein day in the last couple of years. This is one area I need to work on. I do not follow a diet "typical" in any way!

If you have found a way to get the nutrition and not eat meat and it is working for you, that is fine. I know I would be starving without my 4 oz Piedmont beef patty or small serving of chicken. I am sure I have other food intolerances that I have not figured out yet. My foods are a work in progress.

[CarlaB 22]

Even sword bearing catholic crusaders will cut you down if you say you don't believe their bull, even if your nice!

I'm a sword bearing Catholic Crusader ... it doesn't actually bother me ... at least I know where he's coming from.

[jerseyangel 413]

I'm a sword bearing Catholic Crusader ... it doesn't actually bother me ... at least I know where he's coming from.

I am, too--and it dosen't bother me in the least!

[AndreaB 1]

I do my best not to insult anyone's beliefs and hope they allow me the same courtesy. We all belief in something, we are all entitile to our own opinion. It is courtesy not to shoot down someone's opinion and discuss it in a way that won't belittle them.....or just let it drop.

BTW I am a conservative christian who used to not be.

[CarlaB 22]

Steve, once again it is you who starts a religious thread!!!

[jerseyangel 413]

Yea--and you weren't even on here when it happened

[CarlaB 22]

Yea--and you weren't even on here when it happened

He's in France. He's probably sleeping ... boy will he be surprised when he wakes up!!