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AliB

Gut Imbalance And Dysbiosis Behind Everything.

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I agree...dis-ese is multi-faceted. There is not "one thing" to fix.

True Shay, but neither is there only ONE bacteria or parasite. If there was, perhaps we would all have the same disease!

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Something has to cause these problems. Some people sail through life without hardly a cold and die at a ripe old age. Why? What makes them different to you or I? What makes me vulnerable and them not?

Alot of it is genetics. Also, environment, diet, lifestyle, exposure to toxins, etc.

Example: My problems surfaced after exposure to mercury. Alot of people can have the same level of exposure and not suffer the same consequences that I did.

Now, I'm not saying that its "safe" for anyone...because its not....however, some people have genetic weaknesses which make them more susceptible to certain things. It could be mold, could be a bacteria, could be heavy metals....etc.

Genetics play a big role. Apparantly I had some vulnerabilities which may have never caused any health issues if not for the exposure to mercury. It played upon that genetic weakness and the result was chronic illness.

We are not all built the same. Aside from having differences in gut flora we dont have the same immune system, we have different DNA....different genes....we may have weaknesses which make us more susceptible to environmental triggers, etc. etc.

It would be much less complicated if the same factors were involved in every case.....but it just doesnt work that way.

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PS. Lyme's is caused by a bacteria...........funny that a lot of the symptoms are so similar to Celiac............

Funny thing - I keep coming back to bacteria............

Yes, Lyme is caused by a bacteria.

Celiac is an autoimmune disease.

They are two different things.

Celiac is triggered by a "stressor"....in some cases it may very well be triggered by Lyme. If a person has the infection and is also genetically susceptible to Celiac....the disease *may* be triggered that way.

However, many people have Lyme without having Celiac and many people have Celiac without having Lyme.

Not everyone with Celiac has a problem with bacteria. Many cases of Celiac are triggered by viral infections.

Also, while there are some who do very well with the SCD.....there are also plenty who do not have good results with it.

I actually got worse while on the SCD. If the problems were all related to gut flora...why wouldnt *everyone* benefit from SCD??

For every person who has done well with it....there are a handful who did not benefit.

Also, this diet does not address other factors which may have led to dysbiosis in the first place.

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Why Not?

Well because coeliac is found in places where peoples guy bacteria is completely different.

Allison is in NYC, her natural bacteria is completely different to ours in the UK....

As i said on the intial lymes thread where the poster claimed lymes was found EVERYWHERE ... it has NEVER been found in Iceland yet celiac disease is prevalent. Another weird thing about Iceland is the restricted genetic pool. Coeliac incidence is as common is Icelandas everywhere else with a gothic derived population (N. Italy, Central Europe etc.) yet no lymes...

Of course I don't believe it is behind EVERYTHING. There are a lot of diseases out there that appear to be caused by genetic malformations and those can occur anywhere, but thinking laterally, there are a lot of communities out there who do not suffer the types and/or range of diseases that befall those of us in 'civilised' society.

No because they have other things to worry about.... malnutrition and access to antibiotics being major ones.

In many parts of the world simply being alive is classed as healthy.

Why is diabetes on the increase here yet unheard of in other, less 'civilised' communities? Why do those communities only start to develop the disease when they are exposed to our environment? Something triggers it. Is it the diet? Is it the drugs? Certain Drugs disrupt the flora balance and high carb/sugar feeds the bacteria that turns pathogenic in quantity.

I have never eaten a diet high in either carbs or sugar.....

Before leaving home I had tasted soda at other peoples houses, we never bought soda, fizzy drinks or the like. We drank water or water.

I never liked sweet anything.... and still don't... a bag of sugar in my house when we were growing up would last until it was thrown out because it was going brown... I had sweets perhaps once a week to once amonth (the only time I was allowed them was at my Aunt Elsie's and then only 2-3)

The average Libyan is alloted 30kg of sugar per month.... of state subsidised sugar.

We don't think of our diet as being high in sugar and carbs because everyone is eating the same way, yet we ingest more of the stuff in a week than our ancestors would have done in a year! We have a much sweeter tooth now than even 50 years ago. The more sweet stuff we eat, the less inclined we are to eat good nutritious food. The stores are packed to the gunwhales with processed this and take-away that and we just carry on stuffing this rubbish down our throats without any thought about what it is doing to us. We are a sick society, but we don't help ourselves one iota by the food we eat.

Yet .... I don't and never have. On the other hand my brother lives off this.... he either eats at my moms or eats processed crap.

He has been repeatedly tested for celiac disease (being myself and my mother have it)....

Funny thing - I keep coming back to bacteria............

Not really, that was my point.... you keep twisting everything back to bacteria....

My point is that I actually think and believe a LOT of what you are saying has a lot of merit.

I just don't think it is helpful to basically bring everything back to bacteria .....

Just as the lady who came here and told us about Lymes disease did ....

Now the Lady in question was run-off many moons ago... and since then many of our good friends have found they have Lymes...

perhaps some of them were the ones laughing at her at the time....

Believe it or not I was one of the people supporting her..... except I didn't support her view that ALL celiac disease is caused by Lymes....

Right now I support a lot of symptoms may be caused by bacteria BUT until scientific proof is available I will never support ALL celiac disease is caused by bacterial imbalance.

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You just get into trouble with ALL type statements, but I dont think Ali is saying this. There is merit in a lot of theories. I like to read what others discover. The more information I have the better. :)

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You just get into trouble with ALL type statements, but I dont think Ali is saying this. There is merit in a lot of theories. I like to read what others discover. The more information I have the better. :)

Hey the Title of the thread

Gut Imbalance And Dysbiosis Behind Everything

As I have said, I also see a lot of merit... however I also see merit in heavy metal toxicity and yeast overgrowth.

We could say "well there is no harm in it" except as Rachael points out, she got worse.

At the same time we have had the "all funghi are bad" threads where people have been told not to take antibiotics, an even more dangerous path. Should people THINK before popping them... absolutely ... however if you happen to have symptoms resembling bacterial meningitis taking a day to think if antibiotics are good is likely to prove fatal.

This is not even starting on the complex relationship between funghi and bacteria in our gut flora.

To my knowledge, although it has been found to help diabetes (it did nothing for mine!) no-one knows what other effects it really has on the body and those of us taking it are just guinea-pigs! i went back to insulin - I know where I am with that.

Now here is why it's a problem.

Last year I posted an article about diabetes and how medical opinion had concluded that 'just giving insulin' is the best way.

This was not based on medical fact, this was based on the opinion of the medical community that people will not follow a strict diet.

The SCD is helping - slowly. I am not as disciplined with it as I would like to be and do allow a little sugar to creep in here and there which is counter-productive, and I am very aware that I am much better when I don't have it, or starchy carbs.

Unfortunately it is now the considered opinion of the medical community to create insulin dependent diabetics INSTEAD of treating by diet.

Cutting out sugars and processed foods..... hey, I'm 100% for this however it dos nothing to explain the incidents of celiac disease prior to the 20C.

Meanwhile :

Non of my personal research or experience has shown that "A strict gluten free diet must be followed for life, to minimise the risk of developing other associated health problems."

However I find that most celiacs are NOT following a strict gluten-free diet. People (myself included) eat out. Many eat codex gluten-free... others will eat processed in a factory .. etc. etc.

I have yet to SEE one single shred of evidence that ANY amount of gluten causes NO DAMAGE.

Meanwhile, the US is adding the (modified according to Peter and i have no reason to doubt him) .. CODEX standard.

VERY VERY SOON .. we will find it impossible to find REAL gluten-free.... the US is using Europe as a model... in Europe its accepted that c(o)eliacs never get better and this is called IBS.

Will a SCD help .... YES but it is not providing the answers nor is it helping provide us with a safe diet.

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I think if AliB could she would change the title.....I dont think she meant it literally. You can see from her posts that she is open to other ideas as well. Like all of us, she is in process.......

VERY VERY SOON .. we will find it impossible to find REAL gluten-free....

Ummm....unless I am missing something SCD is gluten free naturally. No grains, processed foods, preservatives, etc. allowed. Only meats, veggies, fruits, nuts, seeds and dairy in the form of homemade yogurt.....

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Ummm....unless I am missing something SCD is gluten free naturally. No grains, processed foods, preservatives, etc. allowed. Only meats, veggies, fruits, nuts, seeds and dairy in the form of homemade yogurt.....

Yes and SCD is probably great and I probably do over 50% of it naturally....

However two posts were made on here 2 days ago.... both relating to gluten free and the FDA standards....

Both generated next to no responses.

You currently have groups like GIG pushing to have gluten-free defined as = < 20ppm gluten and in the words of Cynthia Kupper without any scientific evidence.

In the UK it is practically 'accepted' that coeliacs who eat codex gluten-free but don't get better have IBS.... and here IBS is non specific.

We are locked into a catch-22. Coelaic UK declares (without scientific evidence and by actually hiding the results of some research) that codex gluten-free is SAFE.

Therefore any coelaic who still has problems must also have IBS.

CUK denies any other side effects (including neuropathy, depression etc.) and prohibits its officers from giving out information on this. Further it has sponsored studies which have proven it and then refused to let them be published or attempted to restrict their circulation. Several officers have been given gagging orders and banned from discussing this and they actively make fun of the idea in their magazine. A magazine paid for by advertising from the food industry.

The US is currently saying (or again in the words of Cynthia Kupper) to paraphrase , if its OK in Europe then it must be OK here too.

Hence my statement ....

VERY VERY SOON .. we will find it impossible to find REAL gluten-free....

I'm living in central London, 90% of the produce in the supermarkets is processed. i have a 'choice' of 4-5 vegetables but 30-40 prepared meals and its getting increasingly worse.

The time for action on this is NOW....

What I'd like to know is if before trying the SCD if Ali tried a 100% gluten-free diet (no CODEX gluten-free, no prepared food from supermarkets, no eating out... all medications checked)...

Maybe she did but 90% of UK coeliacs are misled and are told they are gluten-free when they are eating products with gluten deliberately added. Thanks to CUK they are even given Rx for this to get from a chemist...

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Yes, Lyme is caused by a bacteria.

Celiac is an autoimmune disease.

They are two different things.

Celiac is triggered by a "stressor"....in some cases it may very well be triggered by Lyme. If a person has the infection and is also genetically susceptible to Celiac....the disease *may* be triggered that way.

However, many people have Lyme without having Celiac and many people have Celiac without having Lyme.

Not everyone with Celiac has a problem with bacteria. Many cases of Celiac are triggered by viral infections.

Also, while there are some who do very well with the SCD.....there are also plenty who do not have good results with it.

I actually got worse while on the SCD. If the problems were all related to gut flora...why wouldnt *everyone* benefit from SCD??

For every person who has done well with it....there are a handful who did not benefit.

Also, this diet does not address other factors which may have led to dysbiosis in the first place.

How do we know that not everyone who has Celiac has a problem with bacteria? Just because they may not have gut problems as such does not negate the fact that bacteria and/or parasites may be causing their health issues and/or gluten intolerance.

Just because someone has had 'tests' that have not picked up Candida or Helicobacter does not mean that a different bacteria is not causing a problem somewhere in the body. One of the common problems facing many of us is continuous low-level infection occurring somewhere in the body. The liver is struggling, the adrenals are working overtime, the body is in a continuously stressed state.

Yes, you may be right that heavy metals may play a part, but I still believe that an efficiently working body should be able to cope with most of that. There are many people out there who carry amalgam fillings in their mouths who have never had a day's sickness in their lives. There are children out there who have never had any fillings yet are very poorly.

It may be that the SCD does not work for some people because the strain/s of pathogenic bacteria within their bodies are very resistant and adaptive. We know that bacteria can become resistant - that is why MRSA, C.Diff and E.Coli are on the rampage.

It could also be that because the bacteria may be so very resistant that the SCD may work but would take a lot longer in some people. How long did you follow it for? Were you very disciplined? I am not, and although there is progress, it would undoubtedly be a lot quicker if I was. I know I need to be eating a lot more vegetables than I am which would also aid detox. I am not going to give up.

My biggest problem is that I can not seem to get to bed early. I always end up fiddling about on the PC till the early hours! Lack of proper sleep is undoubtedly doing little to benefit my recovery! As I have always been the same and lack of sleep depletes the immune system and liver function, I would not be at all surprised if that in itself has been a large contributory factor to my gut dysbiosis.

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Yes and SCD is probably great and I probably do over 50% of it naturally....

What I'd like to know is if before trying the SCD if Ali tried a 100% gluten-free diet (no CODEX gluten-free, no prepared food from supermarkets, no eating out... all medications checked)...

Maybe she did but 90% of UK coeliacs are misled and are told they are gluten-free when they are eating products with gluten deliberately added. Thanks to CUK they are even given Rx for this to get from a chemist...

I was, so I thought, gluten-free for several months prior to SCD, however, I was still having oats and oat products. I was still getting some weird reactions, but thought it was due to my poor gut. Sometime later though, I suddenly started to get 'proper' reactions to some oat-based foods and suddenly realised that oats can be CC'd and that i had probably been getting some tiny amount of gluten all the way through.

I dropped the oats, but started the SCD pretty soon after. At the end of the day, the SCD IS gluten-free. Totally. I do sneak an odd rice cake here and there (and an odd chocolate-chip snack-a-jack!), but generally I eat nothing apart from meat, fish, poultry, eggs, vegetables, fruit and the yogurt.

I realised very quickly after going gluten-free that my body does not cope with carbs at all and never really has done. It coped, after a fashion up until my digestion collapsed after taking the Byetta, and since then carbs have been a huge problem.

So why, I ask myself? Is it a lack of enzymes? Because I don't cope with carbs, consumption of them has led to weight gain and difficulty losing it over the years. The only times I felt well, had energy and lost weight was the 2 times I low-carbed, once with a nutritionist, and once with Atkins (not particularly high-protein, but definitely low-carb). Some of the good bacteria is there as digestive support. It actually helps us to digest certain foods. Am I short of the right bacteria for carbohydrate digestion? Apparently some bacteria chomps its way through the protein we eat too and prevents some people from being able to absorb that properly for cell renewal and repair. Lack of protein will obviously impact on how our bodies function too.

I need to have plenty of protein every day. If I don't, I get a headache. I learnt that one pretty early on. Why? Do I have an overgrowth of the bacteria that depletes my body of protein? Some pathogenic bacteria gives off toxins during carb digestion, like alcohol and acetaldehyde that prevents our bodies from absorbing certain nutrients (hence documented experiences of people being 'drunk' without having ingested any alcohol). Is that what contributes to the brain-fog and 'hangover' type symptoms that many suffer with?

We have a friend who has suffered with CFS for 10 years. He does not have obvious gut problems, but he wakes up with a headache every morning. An acetaldehyde hangover? Probably another one that the SCD with its removal of most carb would benefit.

By the way, yes, I would change the title - to 'behind almost everything?' and it probably needed a question mark on the end!

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Hey, I don't have an autoimmune disease. It's the food supply that's diseased, not me. But that's another topic for another day.

I like the gut bacteria hypothesis. I hope some clever scientists get to work on this.

And speaking of antibiotics: last year one of my animals had a stubborn infection. He was on 6 different types of antibiotics over a 4 week period. A few months later I was told to buy him a vibrational healing remedy, kind of like water infused with stardust from some interplanetary being, because the bad bacteria was still lurking in his body waiting for a chance to make a comeback. I didn't buy it, but I still have him on probiotics.

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How do we know that not everyone who has Celiac has a problem with bacteria? Just because they may not have gut problems as such does not negate the fact that bacteria and/or parasites may be causing their health issues and/or gluten intolerance.

Celiac is a legitimate condition. Its an autoimmune disease that can be triggered in those who are genetically susceptible. The only treatment is a life long gluten-free diet.

Of course some people with Celiac can also have dysbiosis, they can also have Lyme disease....or a viral infection...or heavy metal toxicity....or a compromised immune system due to chronic exposure to mold. The list of possibilities for ongoing symptoms can be endless.

I agree that many people have bacteria overgrowth....however in most of those cases there are more factors involved.

Alot of people with Celiac do not continue to have health problems once they've eliminated gluten....they do just fine while on the diet.

Yes, some others may have additional problems....which may have actually triggered the Celiac Disease in the first place.

However, even if these people DO have dysbiosis....treating that problem is NOT going to allow for them to go back to gluten.....they have Celiac Disease....it doesnt "go away".

There are plenty who do NOT have Celiac Disease and have become sensitive to gluten for other reasons and some of these people may be able to consume gluten again after they have addressed their underlying issues.

In my experience the ones who continue to have problems have *several* issues. Chronic illness is usually multifactorial.....so while dysbiosis may play a role....its not the *only* problem involved.

Just because someone has had 'tests' that have not picked up Candida or Helicobacter does not mean that a different bacteria is not causing a problem somewhere in the body. One of the common problems facing many of us is continuous low-level infection occurring somewhere in the body. The liver is struggling, the adrenals are working overtime, the body is in a continuously stressed state.

This is all very true. Lyme is the fastest spreading infectious disease in the world today. Its an opportunistic bacteria which produces neurotoxins. This is an example of a chronic low-level infection that keeps the body in a stressed state. It slows down the body's detoxification system, it makes it possible for other pathogens to set up housekeeping, it burdens every organ in the body, it allows for other toxins to accumulate, etc. etc.

Of all chronic bacteria infections....this is the most common. Alongside it MANY other infections coexist. This includes fungal, parasitic and viral infections. Because the immune system is burdened.....overtime more and more problems pile up. Multiple infections are the rule...not the exception. In fact, I have never heard of a person who *only* has Borrelia (the bacteria which causes Lyme).

Dysbiosis is a given. However, the SCD is not going to eradicate Lyme...or its coinfections...or parasites...or viral infections....or heavy metals....or any of the additional problems that are all part of a multifactorial chronic disease. Even if decades ago the problems BEGAN with dysbiois....other problems develop as the immune system is stressed by these toxins. Its inevitable.

The body is *one*....and this means that a problem with chronic infection is undoubtedly going to take a toll on the immune system...and untimately all parts of the "system" are affected as more and more problems pile on top of each other.

The immune system is amazing in its ability to keep us healthy. It takes alot to eventually tip the scales. One carbohydrate chomping bacteria is not likely to be the only problem. At least I have never seen it happen that way....not in cases of long term chronic illness.

Yes, you may be right that heavy metals may play a part, but I still believe that an efficiently working body should be able to cope with most of that. There are many people out there who carry amalgam fillings in their mouths who have never had a day's sickness in their lives. There are children out there who have never had any fillings yet are very poorly.

Yes....and there are many people who are walking around carrying a hidden Lyme infection and yet are in excellent health. They may NEVER become ill.....whereas their neighbor may lose their health completely to the same bacteria.

We cannot make this type of comparison.....because we all have different genetics. We have weaknesses and vulnerabilities that are very different. Why do some children sail through their vaccinations.....while others end up with severe reactions? Why do some end up with Autism?

We know that some kids are genetically susceptible.....we know that some kids cant detoxify these toxins efficiently. We know it has a profound effect on their immune system, detoxification pathways, etc.

I dont think we can turn our heads to this just because some kids handle it without becoming ill. Amalgams are not the only source of heavy metal exposure....and some kids have a heavy load despite never having had a filling. Also, if a mom has (or had) amalgams....there is a huge mercury burden passed onto the fetus.

One weak enzyme in the body can cause a susceptibility to heavy metals or toxins which may not be as much of an issue for the next person. Some people are less capable of excreting mercury because they carry a certain gene. They are more susceptible to mercury toxicity. None of us knows in advance whether or not we can handle certain toxins....and at what level.

Mercury also damages the gut flora. This is very well known. Mercury is antibacterial....and once upon a time it was used to treat syphillis (before antibiotics were around). Mercury vapors from amalgam fillings can kill off beneficial bacteria...it can promote the overgrowth of pathogenic organisms. It also can create antibiotic resistant bacteria.

Typically we do not have these imbalances without also having some other major factors involved in suppressing the immune system. Mercury is VERY good at doing this....in fact I do not know of very many people who are chronically ill.....with chronic infections....who do not have issues with heavy metals. Its pretty much a given....they go hand in hand.

It may be that the SCD does not work for some people because the strain/s of pathogenic bacteria within their bodies are very resistant and adaptive. We know that bacteria can become resistant - that is why MRSA, C.Diff and E.Coli are on the rampage.

It could also be that because the bacteria may be so very resistant that the SCD may work but would take a lot longer in some people. How long did you follow it for? Were you very disciplined?

I did not do well on the diet because the SCD approved foods are some of the most problematic for me. It has nothing to do with certain strains of bacteria. In my case its because my sulfation pathway is blocked...which means I cannot detox very well. Many foods (and their nutrients) need to be broken down via this particular pathway.....which happens to be blocked and not functioning to its normal capacity.

I got MUCH sicker in a matter of about 3 days on the SCD. Yes, I was very disciplined. I have no problems with discipline as long as something is working for me.....however, this diet did not work for me.

Do I think that dysbiosis is an issue for me?? Absolutely. Do I think that its going to resolve without addressing the other factors which are weakening my system? Absoultely not.

I agree with much of what you're saying but for most people its only one piece of the puzzle. For some people its a large piece....and for others its only a small piece.

Everyone is different and chronic disease does not have a "one fits all" treatment.

I cant say that I agree that bacteria is behind everything (or even almost everything). I think its one of many important factors. In my opinion bacteria would be much less of a problem if not for the heavy metals and chemicals which suppress the immune system in the first place. These are the things which allow for pathogenic organisms to thrive in the body. Its known that wherever you find pathogens in the body.....you will also find heavy metals such as mercury.

This is because the presence of the toxic metals allows a good place for the "bugs" to set up housekeeping in an area where the immune system is less capable of eradicating them. The neurotoxins produced by some of these organisms also have a synergistic effect with the heavy metals.....and the toxicity in the body goes WAY up.

I do benefit from the removal of most grains and other foods from my diet. By following certain diets I have resolved some of my more severe symptoms (including the "hangover" feeling, brainfog, etc).....however, much of this was not caused by bacteria.

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Yes, I am fully aware that Celiac is an auto-immune disease. But no-one knows what causes it. Some may say that certain ones have a 'genetic disposition' to it, but the field of genetics still has a long way to go and there is every possibility that what they think they know may turn out to be completely wrong!

i am still saying - what 'triggers' celiac? the very fact that it appears to need a 'trigger' makes me suspicious. And the fact that in most cases the 'trigger' starts with the gut, is another. Is it actually gluten that triggers the gut damage, or might it be toxins from certain bacteria that themselves react to the gluten in some way, that are causing the damage? What 'triggers' any auto-immune disease? Why does it even need a trigger? What does the 'trigger' change in the body to set the disease off?

What I am saying is that this is a very, very 'unknown' field. We accept the results of reactions to, or infections by known bacteria, but ignore the possibility that unknown bacteria could also be causing major problems within the body. Yes, we are very imperfect and very vulnerable, but I still feel that the likelihood that rogue bacteria may be behind a lot of the 'triggers' to be a very possible scenario. Time will tell one way or another.

Why might just ONE carbohydrate-chomping bacteria not cause major problems? Candida is just ONE type of yeast, yet it causes a lot of people major problems. Salmonella is just ONE bacteria - it too causes major problems. Do we assume that the Salmonella, once it has created the awful stomach reaction, just passively passes through and out the other side? I was told today by someone who is just getting over it, that her doctor told her that the virus that causes Gastro-enteritis, once it has triggered the initial response, just embeds itself into a little niche near the bottom of the stomach and gets its feet under the table pretty much permanently. Ok, so maybe it doesn't cause the horrendous initial reaction again, but what other damage is it quietly doing down there?

Whilst there may well be some people who are only affected by one bacteria or parasite, unfortunately it is rarely that simple, and most, especially those who do not recover after going gluten-free may well be struggling against a horde of different types of beasties. But we do know that some bacteria are VERY virulent and it still comes back to the fact that it really depends what is lurking down there. Whether we are suffering from the outfall of several background rogues, or a very debilitating single parasite, the response can still be pretty nasty.

The human species is now heavily infested with parasites, particularly the intestinal fluke Fasciolopsis buskii, the sheep liver fluke Fasciola hepatica, the pancreatic fluke of cattle Eurytrema pancreatica, the human liver fluke Clonorchis sinensis and the common roundworm, Ascaris. The increase in fluke parasitism is due to the establishment of a new "biological reservoir" in cattle, fowl and household pets. The increase in Ascaris parasitism is probably due to harboring of household pets.

At the same time, microcontamination of the human food supply with derivatives of the petroleum industry has occurred; these include solvents, antiseptics and numerous products used directly in the food industry. In the presence of isopropyl alcohol, Fasciolopsis buskii can complete its entire life cycle in the human body, not requiring a snail as an intermediate host, as it usually does. Other solvents contributing to parasitism include benzene, methanol, xylene, and toluene which now occur as residues in our foods and pollute our body products such as toothpaste, mouthwash, lotions and cosmetics. These solvents are also contaminants of animal feed, and thus are responsible for establishing the new biological reservoir or source of infection of flukes.

Different solvents accumulate preferentially in different organs. Isopropyl alcohol accumulates in the liver, resulting in completion of the life cycle of Fasciolopsis in the liver. This establishes the malignant process. A variety of growth factors are produced in the human host organs, possibly for the parasites' own use, inadvertently including the human tissue in its sphere of influence. The presence of an adult fluke in the liver signals the production of such growth factors in a distant organ. This organ appears to be chosen on the basis of certain bacteria as well as specific carcinogens present there.

Source - NutriDirect.

Parasitic diseases account for a large proportion of human morbidity and mortality, and doubtlessly contribute significantly to morbidity and mortality among all animal populations as well. In this sense, parasitic disease is an important ecological force shaping the biosphere.

Some major parasitic diseases of humans include malaria, sleeping sickness, schistosomiasis, leishmaniasis, ascariasis, enterobiasis, entamoebiasis, elephantiasis, river blindness, giardiasis, clonorchis and cryptosporidiosis, as well as minor afflictions like lice, mites, chiggers, bot flies, bed bugs, ticks, eye worms, lung worm, and guinea worm. Humans are also subject to a myriad zoonotic diseases including Diphyllobothrium, hydatid disease, trichinellosis, Taenia infections, and anisakiasis.

Source - Wikipedia.

Just Google 'intestinal bacteria', 'human flukes', 'parasites' - oh boy, I had to stop reading after a few minutes - it made me feel sick. And these are only the ones that are known about...................

Going back to the SCD, some, after following this and very similar diets have completely reversed their 'auto-immune' diseases, like MS, Arthritis, Colitis, even Diabetes in some cases. Ok, so you reacted to some foods on the SCD. So did I, but I just avoided those foods until my stomach had reached a point in the healing process where I can now tolerate them.

When I did the alkalising diet a year or so ago, I could not continue after a few weeks as I believe I was reacting to Salicylates. Gradually though, now I am on the SCD I have started to introduce a few fruits and veg and can tolerate them ok. Just this week I have been having grapes and strawberries, which would have been a no-no 2 or 3 months ago.

Darn it, it's after 1am - I've done it again. No early night for me.

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What 'triggers' any auto-immune disease?

There are many theories about this. Some even believe it starts in the brain. The brain controls everything. We spend a good amount of our time beating ourselves up. We say things to ourselves like, "That was stupid.", "What's wrong with me.", "Im fat.", "Im ugly.", "Im getting old.", "I hate my body." and our cells "hear" this constant attack. So they respond by joining in. Our immune system attacks us, just like our brain is telling it to. It utilizes bacteria, gluten, etc. as a means to follow through with the brain's command which is to "attack self." Just following orders sir......

Many people have healed their bodies from things as devastating as incurable cancer by changing their thoughts. By learning to love themselves. By changing the tapes. By changing the commands. By rewiring the brain and teaching the cells to "call off the dogs".

Hey....think we dont understand bacteria, auto-immune disease, genetics......we haven't a clue really about the power of our brains.......

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Why might just ONE carbohydrate-chomping bacteria not cause major problems? Candida is just ONE type of yeast, yet it causes a lot of people major problems.

I'm not saying that they dont cause major problems.....I'm saying that they usually arent the *only* factor involved. Chronic disease is multifactorial.

If a person is suffering from chronic candidiasis.....there are other factors involved. When the immune system becomes so overwhelmed that opportunistic pathogens are allowed to survive and thrive.....there are usually a multitude of things to deal with.

Treating candida will do some good in relieving some of the symptoms.....however, it will come right back until the underlying issues are also treated. The immune system has to be unburdened in order to keep these pathogenic organisms under control.

They dont set up housekeeping and become huge problems in a healthy body with a strong immune system.

If a person is dealing with chronic gut pathogens...including parasites and yeast....a knowledgeable doctor will dig deeper to get to the root of the problem. The immune system doesnt allow these infections to flourish unless for some reason it is not capable of fighting them off.

So most of the doctors (who are experienced in treating chronic illness) would see chronic candida or chronic dysbiosis as a symptom....and they would then look at the things that tend to allow for these imbalances to occur. Otherwise you end up treating the symptoms and many times this is only a temproary fix....the infections come right back.

There are many diets that are used in treating autism with great results. The majority of these kids do have major gut issues. As far as I know there isnt one diet which works for every child with autism. Many do well on the gluten-free/cf diet....although some do not. Some do well on the low-oxalate diet....but again it doesnt work for each child and some get worse. Some need to avoid all sulfur foods. Some need to avoid high phenol foods. Some do well on SCD....and some do not.

It really depends on what underlying problems each individual child is dealing with....and each case is different. Bacteria is not necessarily the biggest problem. In fact for most of these kids viruses and yeast are bigger problems. Also, alot of these kids test positive for Lyme...this is a bacteria but it requires treatment beyond dietary changes.

Some diets have helped me more than others. The SCD was not the right diet for me. It increased my symptoms/toxicity tremendously. I have multiple chemical sensitivities which I've been able to get under control with strict dietary changes. The SCD foods worsened my condition because the allowable foods are the same ones which slow down my body's ability to detoxify itself. Within 2 days I was unable to go anywhere because my body was overwhelmed with toxicity and I had become highly reactive to chemicals , foods, environment, etc.

On the other hand the Feingold/Failsafe diets and eliminating sulfur foods from my diet made a HUGE difference. I benefited from those diets...whereas SCD caused more harm than good. I have also done well with the low-oxalate diet.

I've had extensive testing (of all kinds) and bacteria just isnt a huge factor in my illness. I'm not saying that it isnt a problem at all....because I do have a chronic illness and there are many factors involved....its just that bacteria isnt a major player for me....its not at the top of the list. Basically treating bacteria isnt going to do much as far as restoring my health.....its only a small piece of the puzzle.

Some other people I know have bacteria at the top of their list (mainly Lyme). Some people have Lyme but are more affected by parasitic infections...or heavy metals.

I'm just pointing out that every person is different and bacteria is not at the root of every problem. For some people it is....and for other people its not. For some people bacteria BECOMES a problem *only* because the immune system is already overwhelmed by something else.

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For anyone who is skeptical, have a read of these links and then tell me you don't think that bacteria/parasites may be a major contributor of many of our so-called 'auto-immune' and other diseases and illnesses, both physical and psychological..........

http://www.behealthy.org.uk/gaps.pdf

http://www.mdheal.org/parasites.htm

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2573140/Illness-...including-yeast

http://www.foodforthought.org.uk/what_happened_5.htm

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...servatives.aspx

http://www.ei-resource.org/articles/candid...ses-of-disease/

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For anyone who is skeptical, have a read of these links and then tell me you don't think that bacteria/parasites may be a major contributor of many of our so-called 'auto-immune' and other diseases and illnesses, both physical and psychological..........

I dont think anyone has been skeptical regarding the role that pathogens play in chronic illness. They are major players for sure.

A cause for all cases of Celiac as well as all autoimmune disease in general....I dont know if I'd go that far. I do think that they play a role....however, I dont believe they work alone.

We are seeing more autoimmune disease, more chronic illness (CFS, Fibro, MCS, autism, etc) then ever before. Bacteria, yeast, parasites and viruses have been around forever....we have *always* been exposed to pathogenic organisms but we have not always been as susceptible to them as we are now.

Lyme is the fastest spreading infectious disease...but *why* are so many people becoming more and more susceptible to these opportunistic organisms?

What has changed in our environment?

What is causing the immune system to become so overwhelmed?

The majority of people with the chronic infections (such as Lyme, candida, etc) do not get well by treating these infections alone. They are having to use a multi-pronged approach.....because the disease is multifactorial.

The autistic kids have genetic vulnerabilities which make them more susceptible to environmental toxins and microbes. Alot of people have these same vulnerabilities/weaknesses......however, we are now seeing more and more people affected by them.

So without the exposures to the environmental toxins....the body would most likely remain strong and healthy...and the pathogens would be less of a threat. However, a compromised system is very susceptible to chronic infection.

One of the main reasons that some people lose their health to toxins and microbes is that they have a genetic predisposition which makes them more susceptible. If someone with a weakness in their "foundation" is bombarded by toxic metals, chemicals, etc.....eventually their body will succumb to pathogenic organisms....because the detoxification pathways are weak and the immune system is burdened.

At that point its alot of work to undo the damage. Getting rid of the pathogens is an essential part of the recovery process....but in most cases there are other factors to address. If the "foundation" remains weak....the immune system is still unable to keep the pathogens in check...so they eventually come back.

Methylation defects are found in most (if not all) cases of autism as well as chronic disease conditions such as Chronic Fatigue syndrome and MCS.

The Methyl Cycle is the backbone of our physiology. It's functional status determines our resistance or susceptibility to environmental toxins and microbes.

This is a confusing array of biochemistry, but suffice it to say, a defect at any one point in these interlocking cycles will inevitably affect the remaining pathways, and your overall health will then suffer.

Methyl Cycle abnormalities explain why you are sick from environmental toxins while the guy next door is just fine, why you are autistic while your fraternal twin brother is not.

The Methylation Pathway

This pathway in your body has ties to most major diseases including:

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Yes, maybe, but never before in human history have we been bombarded with drugs like we have over the last hundred years. Anti-biotics, the pill, steroids, painkillers, any number of drugs also deplete the body of vital good bacteria and upset the balance. The very things that are supposed to support us are actually destroying us!

Medical science extracts what they call the 'active ingredient' from the natural product in order to be able to market it as a commercial product and make lots of dosh, and throws the rest away. They do not realise that they are throwing the baby out with the bath water because the other ingredients are there in the herbs/spices etc., to act as buffers against the very side effects that the drugs create.

Although they are now limiting the use of AB's, for several years they were dished out like sweeties every time someone had a sniffle, without letting the immune system do its work to aid our recovery naturally. Everyone thought that Doctors were God and knew everything so could be trusted to out you right. Sadly that hasn't turned out to be the case and a lot have ended up worse off because of it.

So my Mum's gut flora was compromised by her exposure to AB's and other drugs, she could not pass healthy flora to me so mine was compromised. Because of that I was exposed to AB's, too, so my poor flora was passed to my daughter and so on.

What a legacy.............

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This has been fun to read. Too bad every now and then it gets confrontational. Clearly we all just want to feel better and sharing our ideas is one way to do so.

I look at all of this as a big ladder with a bunch of broken rungs. If there are only two broken rungs in a row we can usually climb over it if our legs are long enough and get to the top. If not we are stuck.

Clearly gut imbalances are part of the story.

Clearly genetics are part of the story.

Clearly current environmental contributors are part of the story.

For me it's been candida. For my father who has similar but different problems it's bacteria.

I think the sun or lack of sun is a big part of the problem. Take a northern European and put sun block on him and keep him indoors and what happens? Could the sun be helpful to our immune systems, keeping the critters in check? I know that my problems are somewhat seasonal at this point.

Is our corn and wheat supply really ALL infected with fungi as some have argued.

Personally I feel the only way many of these problems will begin to be solved is by discussing them on internet boards like this. Science can't study these problems easily given that we are all different, they can't control what we each eat, they can't control how much sun we get and what critters we are exposed to etc. I'm surprised they know as much as they do frankly.

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Coo - you're so right about the lack of sun, Ken - we haven't seen but a glimmer of it for weeks! The weather has been horrendous. The kids have all been off school for 6 weeks with hardly a glimpse of it - no beach - nothing. The poor little beggars are back at school next Wednesday and you can bet your bottom dollar the sun will come out for the next few weeks!

Apparently it will be dry tomorrow with 'sunny intervals' so we are going to the beach come rain or shine! I reckon we will have to keep our sweaters on and won't be doing much in the way of paddling, but we'll have fun hopefully. I can cope with dull, it's just the incessant rain that is driving us round the bend.

We need at least 10 - 15 minutes of sun a day to build our vitamin D reserves for the winter. There was an experiment done on TV the other day using some elderly ladies. They got them to get out in the sun (can't imagine where it was!) every day for 2 weeks then tested their D levels - most, if not all, had doubled it just in that short time. They all had more energy too!

Interesting what you said about Candida. Although it is not widely recognised, I am sure systemic Candida or other rogue yeast is a big problem for a lot of people. I think for men too - it is difficult as they don't always show the external signs like women do, but I'm sure it is just as problematic for them. The 'beer belly' I am sure is a sign of poor carbohydrate metabolism. I have one, but I don't drink any alcohol at all! Poor carbohydrate metabolism can almost certainly be linked to imbalanced flora and bacterial overgrowth. Like you, Candida has been a problem for me for years, and that is probably only one 'parasite' among many.

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Celiac is a legitimate condition. Its an autoimmune disease that can be triggered in those who are genetically susceptible. The only treatment is a life long gluten-free diet.

Of course some people with Celiac can also have dysbiosis, they can also have Lyme disease....or a viral infection...or heavy metal toxicity....or a compromised immune system due to chronic exposure to mold. The list of possibilities for ongoing symptoms can be endless.

I agree that many people have bacteria overgrowth....however in most of those cases there are more factors involved.

Alot of people with Celiac do not continue to have health problems once they've eliminated gluten....they do just fine while on the diet.

Yes, some others may have additional problems....which may have actually triggered the Celiac Disease in the first place.

However, even if these people DO have dysbiosis....treating that problem is NOT going to allow for them to go back to gluten.....they have Celiac Disease....it doesnt "go away".

There are plenty who do NOT have Celiac Disease and have become sensitive to gluten for other reasons and some of these people may be able to consume gluten again after they have addressed their underlying issues.

In my experience the ones who continue to have problems have *several* issues. Chronic illness is usually multifactorial.....so while dysbiosis may play a role....its not the *only* problem involved.

This is all very true. Lyme is the fastest spreading infectious disease in the world today. Its an opportunistic bacteria which produces neurotoxins. This is an example of a chronic low-level infection that keeps the body in a stressed state. It slows down the body's detoxification system, it makes it possible for other pathogens to set up housekeeping, it burdens every organ in the body, it allows for other toxins to accumulate, etc. etc.

Of all chronic bacteria infections....this is the most common. Alongside it MANY other infections coexist. This includes fungal, parasitic and viral infections. Because the immune system is burdened.....overtime more and more problems pile up. Multiple infections are the rule...not the exception. In fact, I have never heard of a person who *only* has Borrelia (the bacteria which causes Lyme).

Dysbiosis is a given. However, the SCD is not going to eradicate Lyme...or its coinfections...or parasites...or viral infections....or heavy metals....or any of the additional problems that are all part of a multifactorial chronic disease. Even if decades ago the problems BEGAN with dysbiois....other problems develop as the immune system is stressed by these toxins. Its inevitable.

The body is *one*....and this means that a problem with chronic infection is undoubtedly going to take a toll on the immune system...and untimately all parts of the "system" are affected as more and more problems pile on top of each other.

The immune system is amazing in its ability to keep us healthy. It takes alot to eventually tip the scales. One carbohydrate chomping bacteria is not likely to be the only problem. At least I have never seen it happen that way....not in cases of long term chronic illness.

Yes....and there are many people who are walking around carrying a hidden Lyme infection and yet are in excellent health. They may NEVER become ill.....whereas their neighbor may lose their health completely to the same bacteria.

We cannot make this type of comparison.....because we all have different genetics. We have weaknesses and vulnerabilities that are very different. Why do some children sail through their vaccinations.....while others end up with severe reactions? Why do some end up with Autism?

We know that some kids are genetically susceptible.....we know that some kids cant detoxify these toxins efficiently. We know it has a profound effect on their immune system, detoxification pathways, etc.

I dont think we can turn our heads to this just because some kids handle it without becoming ill. Amalgams are not the only source of heavy metal exposure....and some kids have a heavy load despite never having had a filling. Also, if a mom has (or had) amalgams....there is a huge mercury burden passed onto the fetus.

One weak enzyme in the body can cause a susceptibility to heavy metals or toxins which may not be as much of an issue for the next person. Some people are less capable of excreting mercury because they carry a certain gene. They are more susceptible to mercury toxicity. None of us knows in advance whether or not we can handle certain toxins....and at what level.

Mercury also damages the gut flora. This is very well known. Mercury is antibacterial....and once upon a time it was used to treat syphillis (before antibiotics were around). Mercury vapors from amalgam fillings can kill off beneficial bacteria...it can promote the overgrowth of pathogenic organisms. It also can create antibiotic resistant bacteria.

Typically we do not have these imbalances without also having some other major factors involved in suppressing the immune system. Mercury is VERY good at doing this....in fact I do not know of very many people who are chronically ill.....with chronic infections....who do not have issues with heavy metals. Its pretty much a given....they go hand in hand.

I did not do well on the diet because the SCD approved foods are some of the most problematic for me. It has nothing to do with certain strains of bacteria. In my case its because my sulfation pathway is blocked...which means I cannot detox very well. Many foods (and their nutrients) need to be broken down via this particular pathway.....which happens to be blocked and not functioning to its normal capacity.

I got MUCH sicker in a matter of about 3 days on the SCD. Yes, I was very disciplined. I have no problems with discipline as long as something is working for me.....however, this diet did not work for me.

Do I think that dysbiosis is an issue for me?? Absolutely. Do I think that its going to resolve without addressing the other factors which are weakening my system? Absoultely not.

I agree with much of what you're saying but for most people its only one piece of the puzzle. For some people its a large piece....and for others its only a small piece.

Everyone is different and chronic disease does not have a "one fits all" treatment.

I cant say that I agree that bacteria is behind everything (or even almost everything). I think its one of many important factors. In my opinion bacteria would be much less of a problem if not for the heavy metals and chemicals which suppress the immune system in the first place. These are the things which allow for pathogenic organisms to thrive in the body. Its known that wherever you find pathogens in the body.....you will also find heavy metals such as mercury.

This is because the presence of the toxic metals allows a good place for the "bugs" to set up housekeeping in an area where the immune system is less capable of eradicating them. The neurotoxins produced by some of these organisms also have a synergistic effect with the heavy metals.....and the toxicity in the body goes WAY up.

I do benefit from the removal of most grains and other foods from my diet. By following certain diets I have resolved some of my more severe symptoms (including the "hangover" feeling, brainfog, etc).....however, much of this was not caused by bacteria.

I got really sick the other night while drinking only 3 glasses of wine in a 5 hour time span.........Does this have anything to do with the sulfation pathway issue you have..........I know wine contains sulfites. Why would wine make me so sick............

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I don't know what Rachel would say about this - sulphites could be a problem, but I also have a problem with tannins, which wine contains copious amounts of, especially red wine. I can cope with the very low alcohol cheap plonk like Lambrini but anything stronger than that I spend the rest of the evening coughing my guts up! (It also goes straight to my bowels!)

Because of the tannins, I can't tolerate tea (it makes me queasy and nauseous) or slippery elm (which I bought to calm my raging stomach before I knew about the gluten connection and dropped it but which had the opposite effect!).

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I got really sick the other night while drinking only 3 glasses of wine in a 5 hour time span.........Does this have anything to do with the sulfation pathway issue you have..........I know wine contains sulfites. Why would wine make me so sick............

Yes, I have major problems with sulfites (pretty much all processed foods), all high sulfur foods as well as any supplements containing cysteine, glutathione or anything else high in sulfur.

I have a major block. You might have the same problem but reactions depend on how impaired the enzyme is. I wouldnt be able to tolerate even a small amount of wine.

You had the same indicator of glutathione deficiency so you may be having some problems with the same pathway (hence the food/wine reactions)....but you might not be as sensitive as I am.

I think I'd investigate the sulfites first....as far as a cause for the reaction you experienced.

Sulfite sensitivity indicates impaired function of the sulfite oxidase enzyme....which normally converts the sulfites into sulfate. If the enzyme is down...the sulfites accumulate and cause reactions. The symptoms may be similar to an allergic reaction....but its actually a metabolic issue and not an allergy. Sulfites are toxic....so if the body isnt breaking them down efficiently.....they will make you feel pretty sick.

I will be starting treatment for my pathway problems soon....so I'll keep you informed as to what we're doing for it. :)

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I got really sick the other night while drinking only 3 glasses of wine in a 5 hour time span.........Does this have anything to do with the sulfation pathway issue you have..........I know wine contains sulfites. Why would wine make me so sick............

Not all wines are gluten free. You need to check on the kind you have, just like any other food. You might also be having a reaction to the yeast in the wine.

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Yes, I have major problems with sulfites (pretty much all processed foods), all high sulfur foods as well as any supplements containing cysteine, glutathione or anything else high in sulfur.

I have a major block. You might have the same problem but reactions depend on how impaired the enzyme is. I wouldnt be able to tolerate even a small amount of wine.

You had the same indicator of glutathione deficiency so you may be having some problems with the same pathway (hence the food/wine reactions)....but you might not be as sensitive as I am.

I think I'd investigate the sulfites first....as far as a cause for the reaction you experienced.

Sulfite sensitivity indicates impaired function of the sulfite oxidase enzyme....which normally converts the sulfites into sulfate. If the enzyme is down...the sulfites accumulate and cause reactions. The symptoms may be similar to an allergic reaction....but its actually a metabolic issue and not an allergy. Sulfites are toxic....so if the body isnt breaking them down efficiently.....they will make you feel pretty sick.

I will be starting treatment for my pathway problems soon....so I'll keep you informed as to what we're doing for it. :)

Please do............my reaction was violent vomiting from 12am -4am , pounding headache and non-stop nausea until about noon . Wine always gives me some trouble, but never this much.

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