Anyone Else See Sicko?

[maryjk]

I hope to see it soon. Don't retire to here (Canada) as our health care is getting worse by the day. I actually would love to retire to Cuba.

I would really think twice, no one hundred times, about planning to retire in Cuba. It is a communist country. You, and everyone else, might also want to remember that when watching a movie that shows something in communist Cuba. Do you really think that Castro would allow you to see what is really happening in his country? There have been numerous reports/shows/ pictures of real Cuban hospitals. I would not send my dog to any of them. They lack basic supplies. Remember that when Castro had health problems, he flew to Spain. He didn't get health care in his own country.

Keep in mind Michael Moore is a propagandist.

When I think about health coverage in Canada, I remember the time my father had eye surgery in Baltimore at the Wilmer Eye Institute. There was someone else having the same surgery. They were paying for it out of pocket. They lived in Canada and the man had required surgery on both eyes. He waited so long that when they did the surgery on the first eye, he was blind. He wasn't going to wait almost another year for surgery in Canada for the second eye. And this wait was after he was blind in one eye.

I have similar stories about health care in England. My BIL was stationed there and the stories from their neighbors are just terrible.

In the US, we may not have the best coverage for everyone. But the last thing I would want would be public health care.

[elye]

Yep, there are down sides with universal health care, for sure. But Doll, I can't believe you Manitobans get ALL of your diabetes supplies paid for??! This is incredible...wow, life is totally different here in Ontario, where health care is the worst in the country. I hear things are also not good just across the river in Quebec, but here we have NO gps, no coverage of ANY medical supplies (my husband has decent work insurance that does pick up 80% of my insulin, test strips, etc....thank gawd), and nine-month waiting lists for MRIs and non-emergency cardiac surgeries. My girlfriend is in Vancouver, where she has been without a family doctor since her old one retired four years ago. She tells me that B.C. has a broken system as well. So I guess it really does make a difference which province you're in, since our provincial governments are given a lot of clout in this field. Manitoba, huh? It's right next door...not a huge geographic move for us....

[JennyC]

Let me first say I don't trust the government or HMOs with my family's health care. It seems strange to me that we have a free market system regarding insurance companies, but they do not really compete with each other. Maybe if employees could have a greater choice in who insures them it would inspire a more competitive relationship between insurance companies. Maybe that would lower rates, deductibles, etc. It would also help if health insurance companies could bargain with the drug companies. Last summer I volunteered at the VA pharmacy and I learned that the federal government makes deals with drug companies that offer the lower prices. For example, veterans could not get Viagra paid for but instead they got the newer drug...the name has slipped my mind. My idea is that maybe the government could do their job my making sure that there is no conspiring amongst insurance companies, and maybe if there was a system built around competition costs would go down.

[mamabear]

I am not against importing medical doctors, but it will be more difficult in the future due to increased security clearance with recent events in the UK. Maybe the doctors Debmidge has seen aren't worth the discount prices physicians are paid, but the bulk of primary care (FP's, IM's,Ped's) work hard and long hours for their reimbursement. The specialists are the ones who reap 5-10 times payment for the same amount of face time that the generalist receives. General Internists are a dying breed and we aren't being replaced. There is something else wrong with the system when med students and residents leap to the high paying subspecialities and pass on the art of taking care of patients,and doing so in a long term relationship. I think we can thank the corporate structure for changing insurance companies on the employees year after year....further lessening the bond between patient and doctor. There are no easy solutions here, but being paid in a private practice of 20+ years less than a starting pharmacist in a chain drug store will not attract new primary care doctors.

[Guest Doll]

Yep, there are down sides with universal health care, for sure. But Doll, I can't believe you Manitobans get ALL of your diabetes supplies paid for??! This is incredible...wow, life is totally different here in Ontario, where health care is the worst in the country. I hear things are also not good just across the river in Quebec, but here we have NO gps, no coverage of ANY medical supplies (my husband has decent work insurance that does pick up 80% of my insulin, test strips, etc....thank gawd), and nine-month waiting lists for MRIs and non-emergency cardiac surgeries. My girlfriend is in Vancouver, where she has been without a family doctor since her old one retired four years ago. She tells me that B.C. has a broken system as well. So I guess it really does make a difference which province you're in, since our provincial governments are given a lot of clout in this field. Manitoba, huh? It's right next door...not a huge geographic move for us....

Manitoba is one of the "have provinces" for Pharmacare. Once you pay 3% of your income annually, all supplies are covered, including insulin pump supplies. Sask. does not have great coverage, but it is better than Ontario. Pump supplies for children are now covered here. I am only a student here, so I'm covered under MB. It really does depend on where you live for coverage. Yukon, NWT, and Nunavut all have 100% coverage, AND cover insulin pumps (MB only pays for the supplies).

There have been attempts to get a national drug plan, so everyone gets coverage similar to what MB has. However, I wasn't kidding when I said that the people who abuse their health are holding it back. I personally have been at meetings where gov't officials say that "our focus is diabetes prevention (Type 2, the kind caused by obesity), not treatment".

The problem with this is that the 10% of diabetics who have Type 1 diabetes (genetic autoimmune form) need insulin and supplies to *live*, and their form of diabetes is not preventable. Thus, the people with genetic and/or non-preventable forms of diseases suffer because of the unhealthy masses. The government's new focus is "healthy living" campaigns, which I am sure you have seen in the media. That does nothing for those like me, who will still have a life threatening health condition that has nothing to do with lifestyle and cannot be prevented. Basically, our nation's bad habits are breaking the system.

But for now, MB is holding up, and our coverage is fairly good. Wait times for an Endo are not the best, but they are not the worst either. Winnipeg has a "private" MRI machine that seemed to fly under the radar...the gov't supposedly pays to send people to this private MRI clinic when the hospitals are booked, but I am pretty sure you can pay yourself to get faster treatment.....

[elye]

Yes, I had the opportunity to get an MRI done privately last year if I travelled to Gatineau and paid $800.00. It was no emergency, so I waited the seven months here.

[lfij]

I saw the movie and I thought it was a bunch of propoganda. Yes, there were very sad stories in it. but go anywhere, and you will find hundreds of very sad stories. The same way farenheight 911 had some truth to it, but alot of it was "spun", i thought alot of this was spun. I have relatives in canada who are on waiting lists for surgery, as some people on this board are canadian, they will tell you everything is far from perfect up there. I thought it was very sad but also exaggerated.

[lovegrov]

I don't pretend to have a solution and I know that Moore salnts everything toward his view. He admits that.

A fair part of our money used for medical reasons is wasted on insurance companies and bureaucracy. I think it's bad for health care. As somebody mentioned in an earlier message, it's a HUGE business and dismantling it might cost jobs, but some of those jobs would go elsewhere. That said, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the government running things, either. I'm not sure what the answer is.

A tale from my family. I have a cousin who went to Europe a number of years ago because he could make a living there playing jazz drums (he couldn't here in the U.S. because of the progressive style he plays). Once there, a world-renowned cardiologist in Paris finally diagnosed problems he had been having as a heart condition that really has no cure other than medications, monitoring, and, eventually, a transplant. He's steadily going downhill toward transplant or death. A few years ago he wanted to return to the U.S. to live but can't because he can't get insurance here and doesn't make enough to pay for his treatment out of pocket. In France, even though he's a U.S. citizen, he's basically taken care of.

richard

[Tim-n-VA]

I hope a lot of people see "Sicko" and leave the US. That way there will be less strain on the US system and care will improve for me.

[debmidge]

It would also help if health insurance companies could bargain with the drug companies. Last summer I volunteered at the VA pharmacy and I learned that the federal government makes deals with drug companies that offer the lower prices. For example, veterans could not get Viagra paid for but instead they got the newer drug...the name has slipped my mind.

The health insurance companies do have bargains with the drug companies: it's called "formulary" and this will hurt celiacs. How? if you definitely want a brand name prescription because you know it's gluten free and you're too sick to go calling every generic company to find out if their formula is gluten free, you might not be able to get the brand name or the particular brand name you desire because it's not on their "formulary list." Now this didn't affect us prior to celiac but now it's a nightmare. That's why the veterans could not get Viagra as it was not on the formulary, but Levitra was. That means that the VA's program has a deal with the manufacturers of Levitra but not Viagra. Now let's pretend that only Viagra is gluten-free - hence the problem for celiacs with a formulary. You do not want the healthcare insurance or provider in cahoots with the drug manufacturer for this very reason. Also, these formularies change from year to year and some drugs are removed and some are added. In my workplace's formulary we've had some gluten-free drugs removed and the "PIA" it is to have to call the pharmacist or generic to find out if a reasonable substitute is gluten-free is a nightmare.

Also, I have a feeling that when an health/precription insurance company has a formulary they keep track of how many of what drugs are being used and when they renew the insurance policy for the employer they remove the drugs that are being used the most. I said that to the woman at the insurance company and she replied "That would be immoral!" I said "Yep, that describes the insurance company." (Even though I am in the business I do not get a discount or any special treatment and I am just as skeptical as you guys are.)

I don't want my insurance/prescription plan in cahoots with the pharmaceutical companies for this very reason. We will have better competition if/when FDA approves more new drugs, but they have had those recent scares with drugs that had to be taken off market, so FDA isn't so quick now to approve just anything.

I'd to know more about France's healthcare; how it operates etc. As it stands now, I am not interested in Universal healthcare run by US govt as they failed us in the Veteran's Administration (personal experience) and I do not want to go though this again. See my info below about the VA & they misdiagnosed my husband, and treated him cruelly and refused to test him further. If this is the mentality of universal govt care then we are in trouble. Man I hated going to the DMV or unemployment because they were so lazy, rude, insolent and impudent to us "customers" and I am told that I have to deal with this type of person for my healthcare? Are we going mad?

This just shows how desperate some of us are to get away from the system we're in now. We change it and accept just anything in its place.

I'll say it again, I want this: my own privately chosen healthcare plan with prescription, eyeglass, dental, short & long term disability and use my own income to pay the premium but be able to deduct from my state and federal taxes *from the first dollar* all costs and premiums associated with my medically necessary healthcare. Meaning healthcare that isn't medically necessary like boob implants or face lift can't be deducted from *first dollar* - that uses the old way of however it's deducted, if it's an allowable deducted procedure at all (I don't know).

Also, additional guidelines for this type of allowable *first dollar* would be tied into annual income with number of dependents or number of adults. For instance: single person making under $50,000 can do the *first dollar* deduction. Family of 4 can make no more than $100,000 and qualify. Or something like this - maybe the income amount has to be regional as $50,000 a year in New York City area wouldn't go too far to support a single person & I don't mean that the night life is expensive just the cost of regular living is. The income limit should be tied into the cost of living in your area and there should be let's say 5 different levels. Level "A" is for cities where $50,000 does't go far like NYC, LA, San Fran, Chicago, etc. Level "B" is for the next step --- and these levels are shown on the map and you report your deductions based on where you live. Unfortunately, the wealthy cannot participate but they are probably not really worrying about healthcare costs to begin with. This would basically be relief in nature for working families/working poor/young & single/etc. to avert a healthcare crisis and to keep the uninsured and underinsured from clogging the emergency rooms.

*I Just want to clarify one thing: I believe medical expenses and premiums are tax deductible however the people who are hurting financially from high costs are those who do not make enough money or own property and cannot itemize their deductions. My idea is for those people only. As Charitable Relief. Not as a field-day for the wealthy who don't have to worry about deciding between paying a health insurance premium and buying their next yacht. Not that the wealthy or yachts are bad...no.no.no. just want to stress that it's the average citizen who needs this relief and needs it now.*

Ok, I'll also repeat myself. Today's income has not kept pace in comparision to 40+ years of inflation and recession. Some of us are not doing as well as our parents, who had less education than we do. This is no reflection on older people or on younger people - it's the economy. But that's a different topic but it does affect the buying power of those who cannot afford health care.

[Judyin Philly]

9:22 Pm on the East Coast.

Larry King interviewing Michael Moore on CNN

West Coast you might catch it.

It's almost over..just turned it on.

Judy

[Guest Doll]

I think the major point here is that everyone in Canada (or country X) GETS medical care. Of course there will be a wait time for non-emergent/urgent cases. Those who can afford to not wait can fly done to the Mayo Clinic and pay for their surgery the next day. The average citizen and poor person will still get care, just a bit later.

People with who need heart surgery etc. get it right away. In the US, if you have heart disease and have no insurance, you may (will) die. If you have Type 1 diabetes and can't afford regular insulin injections, you die, or end up with kidney failure at age 20. Laser treatments and surgery to save your sight are not covered if you cannot get or afford insurance. They are in Canada.

France has a good set up, but I doubt the US will ever have any kind of even partially socialized healthcare system....they're spending (wasting) billions of dollars on a futile "War on Terror"....

[tarnalberry]

I'm quite selfish in my reason to not want socialized medicine: socialized medicine will bring everyone towards the average, but half of us have above average care, so our medical care will get worse. I've got good insurance, my doctors have been good (and the two I had that weren't, I fired - something you can't do in socialized medicine so easily, if at all), and my health care has been quite reasonable given it's complicated-ness.

What I think would help more is some accountability on the part of the average person for their health. Don't exercise regularly? Don't eat pretty darn well? Don't keep your stress levels manageable? Don't have a support system? Don't help your doctor(s) manage your health? Then it's kinda your own fault. (And, yes, I tell myself it's my own darn fault when I don't do these things and I'm not feeling well too, because it is.)

[Canadian Karen]

I'm quite selfish in my reason to not want socialized medicine: socialized medicine will bring everyone towards the average, but half of us have above average care, so our medical care will get worse. I've got good insurance, my doctors have been good (and the two I had that weren't, I fired - something you can't do in socialized medicine so easily, if at all), and my health care has been quite reasonable given it's complicated-ness.

What I think would help more is some accountability on the part of the average person for their health. Don't exercise regularly? Don't eat pretty darn well? Don't keep your stress levels manageable? Don't have a support system? Don't help your doctor(s) manage your health? Then it's kinda your own fault. (And, yes, I tell myself it's my own darn fault when I don't do these things and I'm not feeling well too, because it is.)

Although I can understand the point of view regarding people not taking proper care of themselves, one must also remember all the diseases are we are pre-disposed to, celiac being a perfect example. Taking good care of yourself does squat when you have family genes that give you a disease anyway (i.e. breast cancer, diabetes, heart failure, etc.).......

Karen

[tarnalberry]

Although I can understand the point of view regarding people not taking proper care of themselves, one must also remember all the diseases are we are pre-disposed to, celiac being a perfect example. Taking good care of yourself does squat when you have family genes that give you a disease anyway (i.e. breast cancer, diabetes, heart failure, etc.).......

Karen

one and a half of the three examples you use are not "given" to you by genetics. your genetics may predispose you to them, but they are not by any means a given if you have the genes - just as celiac isn't. taking care of yourself can indeed help keep you from developing those conditions. sure, there are purely genetic conditions - cystic fibrosis, for instance - that are a 'given' that will always require medical care. but the extent of the care required for those with conditions that cannot be prevented can be reduced with good health practices.

does it prevent it for everyone? not at all. and there's no reason to assume that we would need zero medical care if we took care of ourselves. but we would need significantly less, and that care would be less expensive.

[lfij]

I'm quite selfish in my reason to not want socialized medicine: socialized medicine will bring everyone towards the average, but half of us have above average care, so our medical care will get worse. I've got good insurance, my doctors have been good (and the two I had that weren't, I fired - something you can't do in socialized medicine so easily, if at all), and my health care has been quite reasonable given it's complicated-ness.

What I think would help more is some accountability on the part of the average person for their health. Don't exercise regularly? Don't eat pretty darn well? Don't keep your stress levels manageable? Don't have a support system? Don't help your doctor(s) manage your health? Then it's kinda your own fault. (And, yes, I tell myself it's my own darn fault when I don't do these things and I'm not feeling well too, because it is.)

I agree with you 100 percent. There is a lack of accountability with many out there! And, i'm selfish, i like my good health insurance too. I'm sure we'll both get yelled at now for saying this though.

[Guest Doll]

one and a half of the three examples you use are not "given" to you by genetics. your genetics may predispose you to them, but they are not by any means a given if you have the genes - just as celiac isn't. taking care of yourself can indeed help keep you from developing those conditions. sure, there are purely genetic conditions - cystic fibrosis, for instance - that are a 'given' that will always require medical care. but the extent of the care required for those with conditions that cannot be prevented can be reduced with good health practices.

does it prevent it for everyone? not at all. and there's no reason to assume that we would need zero medical care if we took care of ourselves. but we would need significantly less, and that care would be less expensive.

I'm with you on this. Type 1 diabetes (the genetic autoimmune kind that can't be prevented by any known means) is only 5-10% of diabetics. 90-95% (!) of diabetes cases are Type 2 diabetes, the kind that is usually caused by being overweight/obese, eating a poor diet, and not exercising. Wipe out Type 2 diabetes, and diabetes will once again become an "uncommon" disease like it was in the 1950's when mainly only Type 1 diabetes existed (0.5% of the population). Please no one list "diabetes" without saying what type. It's very insulting to the thin people like me with a genetic non-preventable form of diabetes to be linked in with a person who ate McD's for years, never exercised, and now has Type 2 diabetes.

There are people with genes for breast cancer, but in many cases, breast cancer is linked to obesity (due to an excess of insulin levels and hormones in the blood).

Many (but not all of course) cases of heart disease are linked to lifestyle, obesity, etc.

I think what you are trying to say is that those with unpreventable health conditions take up a very small portion of medical costs overall. I agree with this. It is the people who abuse their health that destroy the system and would expect to have care.

[debmidge]

My fear with Universal healthcare in US would be:

1) excessive taxes like in those countries with socialized medicine - take note of their tax percentage..Is there any reason why celebrities/musicians/actors from those countries become residents/citizens of US?

2) the system will be clogged with cases they can't get to

3) the bureaucrats will ruin it with rules and HMO type regulations - I don't think any of you liked the HMO regulations (especially the "referrals")

4) it'll be run like the Dept. of Motor Vehicles with people who know that they'll make their income without any effort or worse yet have no care for the person who needs help - just slap a form at them and argue with them if they can't fill it out (think DMV, unemployment office, any other govt. office where you need their help)

5) the excessive taxes needed to hold up a program like this will make me a pauper and I'll have to live out of my car - if I can afford one.

6) it will not attract the best and the brightest as the program's funds will be doled out miserly on the medical personnel, but the administrators and politicians who head it will be in "gravy."

7) it'll have a great potential for "graft" and "political buddy systems" getting the contracts for the healthcare - whether at hospital, pharmaceutical, diagnostic (MRI's etc.) or treatment level.

8) healthcare will actually get worse than what we have now (through see items 3-7 above)

9) the dismantling of our current healthcare system will have too many negative repercussions on our economy

10) I don't want to deal with cranky government employees more than I have to

11) If it resembles the care in the Veteran's Hospitals: no thank you.

12) I'd rather carry my own weight, buy my own insurance based on MY underwriting criteria and pay premiums for ME rather than subsidize others through my taxes...I already do that and it's called Medicare and Medicad and my taxes are keeping me from achieving my financial goals. I want to be generous with MY money on MY TERMS.

13) I am a free thinker and want less government in my life on every level. I want only the basic minimum.

14) If anyone has read the story "The Ant and the Grasshopper" a public medical plan such as this will attract all the "ants." We already have more people on Medicare/Medicad than the system can handle: that's why it's becoming bankrupt. It'll attract those who have no cares for tomorrow and will want a "nanny government" to take care of them - cradle to grave. I am not saying this to be mean and uncharitable but I am sure those of you who are saving to get married, have a family or buy a home know how elusive it is and that if only you didn't have so much taken out of your pay for govt. programs YOU'D be able to breathe easier and have the basic things in life so many people take for granted.

[Guest Doll]

I have to agree actually that the US could not handle nor implement socialized healthcare at this point. Socialized healthcare does work (but usually a 2-tier model is best). Most countries in Europe are fine with it. Also note that obesity and preventable illness is *generally* not as great of a problem in most European countries. Canada is not that bad either in the grand scheme of things. I can say this with experience using the system. Granted, if Canadians let their health go down the tubes and their waistbands increase, the system will crumble. That's just common sense. You can only milk a cow for so long if you don't give it a chance to rest and produce more milk.

The US is not set up to run socialized healthcare for many reasons, ranging from current government to past practices. Obesity is killing the nation (2/3 of people are overweight/obese). 18 million Amercians have Type 2 diabetes (largely preventable) and millions of others have it but are undiagnosed. By the time those with the condition get proper care, their healthcare costs are through the roof to save their lives. People with Type 2 diabetes (unlike Type 1) can go for years without treatment. Are they not diagnosed because they don't have access to a doctor in the first place? Could they have prevented their Type 2 diabetes if they had coverage to see a dietician when they first began to gain weight? Probably. Perhaps we need to blame both those who abuse their health and also those who do nothing to help the less educated. It may not be PC, but the fact is that some people have low IQs. and/or education They honestly may not understand how important it is to eat properly. I don't think 2/3 of the US is mentally challenged, so obviously there is personal choice here for the majority, but perhaps a percentage of those people could be helped. In Canada, we have shifted towards preventative medicine. The US seems to employ a model of "after the fact" care which treats people who are already very sick, even if steps could have been taken to prevent the illness from progressing. Here, if I were a doctor in Canada, if an overweight patient comes to me, I can refer them to an exercise program and dietician. In the US, they hand out useless and dangerous "diet pills" like candy. And people get fatter and fatter until they have a massive heart attack and are now disabled.

Based on how the US operates, and the current state of unhealthy lifestyles, I have to say that I don't know what the plan should be. I think there is hope for the future if a plan is made now. I DO know that it is truly sad to see young people with non-preventable illesses suffer and die because there is no plan in place for them. Not everyone can be lawyers and doctors. A cashier without health insurance through work wouldn't be able to afford treatment for cancer. Is it right that she dies simply because of her occupation? Maybe some people think it's survival of the fittest, brightest, etc. so this is OK. I just think it's sad....

[Judyin Philly]

DOLL WROTE:

Here, if I were a doctor in Canada, if an overweight patient comes to me, I can refer them to an exercise program and dietician. In the US, they hand out useless and dangerous "diet pills" like candy. And people get fatter and fatter until they have a massive heart attack and are now disabled.

________________________

I've been reading along and just have to add.

I've struggled with being obese all my life.

eaten well and swam for my health 4 times a week.

the only way I could lose weight was after being FINALLY dx'd with celiac's after 20 years of IBS dx!

I guess i'm just kinda tired of the 'simplification' of the general population that obese people do not care, are not trying to take care of their health and the topper..HAVE NO WILL POWER.

Just my opinion and had to speak up.

JUDY

[Guest Doll]

DOLL WROTE:

Here, if I were a doctor in Canada, if an overweight patient comes to me, I can refer them to an exercise program and dietician. In the US, they hand out useless and dangerous "diet pills" like candy. And people get fatter and fatter until they have a massive heart attack and are now disabled.

________________________

I've been reading along and just have to add.

I've struggled with being obese all my life.

eaten well and swam for my health 4 times a week.

the only way I could lose weight was after being FINALLY dx'd with celiac's after 20 years of IBS dx!

I guess i'm just kinda tired of the 'simplification' of the general population that obese people do not care, are not trying to take care of their health and the topper..HAVE NO WILL POWER.

Just my opinion and had to speak up.

JUDY

I'm not saying *everyone* who is obese chose that. There are medical reasons someone can be overweight. However, these are RARE cases. Most people have NO medical reason. Even with the 1 in 133 stats, less than 1% of Americans have Celiac Disease. I have heard that the 1 in 133 stat is even a little high. Please note that I am not referring to those who actually are obese and have a medical reason (if Celiac was the cause of why you were overweight).

A full 2/3 (or is it 3/4 now?) of the US is overweight. Many of those are African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, and Indians, all people who have a low incidence of Celiac. In some cultues, being obese is now considered a "normal" weight. I doubt your heart thinks so!

I am talking about those who *say* they follow a healthy diet, and then go home and eat 2000 more calories than they think. There was a person on a TV show that said they ate salad and beans all day and had no idea why they were fat. A hidden camera caught them ordering in SIX (!) buckets of KFC!

I'm not saying this is the case with you, but many people are in denial about their weight and their habits, period. Yes, some people are naturally bigger despite a healthy diet and exercise, and others have a medical reason for their weight (rare). But more often than not, it *is* a choice.

I have seen numerous people claim they were "genetically fat". As soon as they were told they had Type 2 diabetes and would likely die blind and amputated, they "magically" got serious and LOST THE WEIGHT they said they couldn't lose! What does that say?

I am glad you got your Celiac Dx and were able to get yourself healthy. Just remember that most people who are obese are not obese because of Celiac or any known medical problem. People eat too much and exercise too little, period. I take good care of myself, we all should. We only get one body. It's important to exercise and eat right no matter what your size. This is what is important. However, *most* people who do this tend to not be overweight.

[elye]

This is all resonating eerily for me. My healthy, 56 year-old brother-in-law suffered a massive stroke last September, and has been in a long-term care hospital here in Ottawa since then. Nothing has awakened me to the plight of our broken health-care system like what I have seen in this hospital each time I am there with him. Lack of resources adds up to lack of care. But things got really interesting when I became aware of the bariatric program that is in place at this hospital, and others. Morbidly obese people can be admitted to these hospitals and for thousands upon thousands of our health-care dollars, be taken care of. I see how little my brother-in-law is tended to, how few his vital physiotherapy sessions are, how difficult it is to get one nurse into his room more than once a day to change him. Then I see a "patient" like the one in the link below, with a special $7500.00 lift, $42,000.00 bed, and wheelchair that's too expensive to mention. She has physio five days a week...my brother-in-law is lucky if he's seen twice. She requires four nurses to move and tend to her in her bed, while he requires one. No wonder there are no nurses available to help him eat, or to change him! They are all needed in her room! Something is seriously wrong here; we all pay for each other's health care, and I do not want to pay for a patient like her. She should be on a 1,200 calorie a day eating plan. That's the treatment. Some counselling for the addiction, okay. In the American system at least we would not all be paying for this woman...SHE would have to pay for herself.

Open Original Shared Link

I'm so new to this copy and pasting...I do hope that is a direct link!

[Guest Doll]

This is all resonating eerily for me. My healthy, 56 year-old brother-in-law suffered a massive stroke last September, and has been in a long-term care hospital here in Ottawa since then. Nothing has awakened me to the plight of our broken health-care system like what I have seen in this hospital each time I am there with him. Lack of resources adds up to lack of care. But things got really interesting when I became aware of the bariatric program that is in place at this hospital, and others. Morbidly obese people can be admitted to these hospitals and for thousands upon thousands of our health-care dollars, be taken care of. I see how little my brother-in-law is tended to, how few his vital physiotherapy sessions are, how difficult it is to get one nurse into his room more than once a day to change him. Then I see a "patient" like the one in the link below, with a special $7500.00 lift, $42,000.00 bed, and wheelchair that's too expensive to mention. She has physio five days a week...my brother-in-law is lucky if he's seen twice. She requires four nurses to move and tend to her in her bed, while he requires one. No wonder there are no nurses available to help him eat, or to change him! They are all needed in her room! Something is seriously wrong here; we all pay for each other's health care, and I do not want to pay for a patient like her. She should be on a 1,200 calorie a day eating plan. That's the treatment. Some counselling for the addiction, okay. In the American system at least we would not all be paying for this woman...SHE would have to pay for herself.

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I'm so new to this copy and pasting...I do hope that is a direct link!

Good point and know that I agree with you (I said earlier that people who practice unhealthy habits should pay for their own healthcare).

In the US, people who share the same insurance plan with a woman like this (provided she would have insurance) would also have to foot the bill.

While I'm glad someone's doing something about her obesity, it doesn't say much about the world we live in when someone has so little control over what they eat that they have to reroute or band their digestive system....

Sorry to hear about your Brother in law.

[debmidge]

In the US, people who share the same insurance plan with a woman like this (provided she would have insurance) would also have to foot the bill.

This is not so..to a point the expense would get blanketed over all the policy holders (just like socialism) but first SHE'D have a rate increase on her renewal premium. Or her employer would get socked with a higher premium for the experience of his "group." In USA the health cost DOES get back to the patient through higher health insurance rates, unfortunately however, for those who are desperately ill through no fault of their own.

[debmidge]

I have to agree actually that the US could not handle nor implement socialized healthcare at this point. Socialized healthcare does work (but usually a 2-tier model is best). Most countries in Europe are fine with it. Also note that obesity and preventable illness is *generally* not as great of a problem in most European countries. Canada is not that bad either in the grand scheme of things. I can say this with experience using the system. Granted, if Canadians let their health go down the tubes and their waistbands increase, the system will crumble. That's just common sense. You can only milk a cow for so long if you don't give it a chance to rest and produce more milk.

The US is not set up to run socialized healthcare for many reasons, ranging from current government to past practices. Obesity is killing the nation (2/3 of people are overweight/obese). 18 million Amercians have Type 2 diabetes (largely preventable) and millions of others have it but are undiagnosed. By the time those with the condition get proper care, their healthcare costs are through the roof to save their lives. People with Type 2 diabetes (unlike Type 1) can go for years without treatment. Are they not diagnosed because they don't have access to a doctor in the first place? Could they have prevented their Type 2 diabetes if they had coverage to see a dietician when they first began to gain weight? Probably. Perhaps we need to blame both those who abuse their health and also those who do nothing to help the less educated. It may not be PC, but the fact is that some people have low IQs. and/or education They honestly may not understand how important it is to eat properly. I don't think 2/3 of the US is mentally challenged, so obviously there is personal choice here for the majority, but perhaps a percentage of those people could be helped. In Canada, we have shifted towards preventative medicine. The US seems to employ a model of "after the fact" care which treats people who are already very sick, even if steps could have been taken to prevent the illness from progressing. Here, if I were a doctor in Canada, if an overweight patient comes to me, I can refer them to an exercise program and dietician. In the US, they hand out useless and dangerous "diet pills" like candy. And people get fatter and fatter until they have a massive heart attack and are now disabled.

Based on how the US operates, and the current state of unhealthy lifestyles, I have to say that I don't know what the plan should be. I think there is hope for the future if a plan is made now. I DO know that it is truly sad to see young people with non-preventable illesses suffer and die because there is no plan in place for them. Not everyone can be lawyers and doctors. A cashier without health insurance through work wouldn't be able to afford treatment for cancer. Is it right that she dies simply because of her occupation? Maybe some people think it's survival of the fittest, brightest, etc. so this is OK. I just think it's sad....

My name is Deb and I am overweight (he he)

I was always overweight by anywhere from 15-60 lbs. - catch me at any moment and I am somewhere in that range. This being said I am in great health! I have blood pressure of 120/70 or less at times - cholesterol under 200, esp. the good cholesterol.. Doctors marvel over my numbers because I am atypical. I feel that in many cases problems from being overweight are exaggerated ...isn't it so or they tell me that people in France eat much more animal fats than Americans do? Cheeses, croissants, pastries, etc. It's more than people being overweight. It's not so much a health crisis but people are truly now aware of the toll life takes on your body and are looking for answers from medicine. Perhaps in past people weren't so aware of their health status.

Yes, doctors have told me to lose weight but no doctor ever prescribed me diet pills, even when I wanted Zenical or something like that I was told I wasn't heavy enough (presciption plan wouldn't pay for it.). At one point I went on Atkins and lost 38 lbs. It really worked but it's hard to stay on. I don't lose weight on low fat diets unless I am below 1000 calories a day - very difficult to stay on too and does it matter when I am a healthy and hearty person and continue to be so?

Several years ago I went to the Humane Society with a friend as she wanted an unwanted dog. She had to pay $75 for a "used" dog. I asked the Society why the fee and they answered : if you get something for nothing you treat it like that: like it's nothing. When there's a fee, the person doing the purchasing has more of a stake in it and a bond of responsiblity is created. Free health care is like adopting a pet then. When that bond isn't made it's abused and overused and taken for granted and tossed away. But having to achieve health with sweat from your brow will make you hold it more dear to you. Perhaps in Canada certain procedures should have a copay to show people that this is serious and that it's not to be taken lightly or sucked up like pigs at a trough. Health care should be approached with reverent respect. (In insurance terms it could be considered a "moral" hazard when the only people buying and using the insurance are claimants, but I digress).

As for people who are working at jobs without insurance..it's a horrible thing to have to go through. I only wish I had an answer - I know what the answer isn't: it isn't instituting a govt program to part me from my money - I'm telling you now that I can't afford anymore govt programs. Perhaps govt will organize a program for these that fell though the cracks - that I'll certainly listen to and if it makes sense perhaps approve. I know about cracks in system as my husband and I too fell through them with his health.

I have a friend who had a lot of part time jobs without insurance and she had ulcers...she needed meds but had no income nor husband..just herself..her kids abandoned her...she needed meds and I know that pharmaceutical companies have programs to help indigent/working poor obtain drugs they need. So she applied to the companies who made her prescriptions and they came through for her.

The pharmaceutical companies really do care.

My sister works for big pharma and I watched a program her company made& put together (not for general public's viewing) and they interviewed some patients who took their cancer drugs & got better and at the end the pharma employees actually cheered the patients and the leader of the group of pharma people shouted something like "we do it all for you - the patient!" It was so nice I almost cried when it was rolling. My sister worked on the production of that film. So they are all not heartless creatures only trolling for money.

Just musing.