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Gentleheart

More About Dr. Kenneth Fine

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As far as Dr. Fine selling tapes and books, he owns a commercial business as do many doctors these days. So why not? He makes no secret of the fact that he owns a business based on gluten intolerance. He advertises his prices clearly and there is no pressure after you get the tests to buy anything else from him. That doesn't make him any less of a doctor or a charlatan, just like prescribing medicines promoted commercially on TV or by persistent salepeople does not make any other doctor a charlatan, even though some of those meds turn out to be hazardous and pulled from the market. He is just a person who has gone against the mainstream of the medical community and I say thank goodness for that. He offers an alternative to a close-minded medical standard that has refused to even recognize gluten-intolerance until just recently and even then only the very few who bother to keep up with science advances. Good for Dr. Fine and beneficial to many of us.

Yes Laurie, this says it all!!! It's a personal decision as to seeing Dr. Fine, or not, just the same as it's a personal decision to see any doctor.

Just agree to disagree and move on.

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It's a personal decision as to seeing Dr. Fine, or not, just the same as it's a personal decision to see any doctor.

See Dr. Fine?? I was not aware that he actually "sees" patients.....as far as I know he only sells tests but does not have follow-ups with the people who have purchased his tests.

It is a personal decision on whether or not to buy the test....but not the same as making a decision to see a doctor. He is not treating patients and he does not really know how many of the people ordering his tests actually regain their health...and how many continue to have illness despite his recommendations.

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"Does anyone out there think we will see Dr. Fine's research published early next year? "

Nope. He's been saying this for many years and we have yet to see it.

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"Does anyone out there think we will see Dr. Fine's research published early next year? "

:lol::lol:

Sorry.....I just cant help but laugh out loud every time I read that. :lol:

I truely do hope that he does SOMEDAY make good of his word. I understand that some people do not care either way.....however, there are MANY people who DO care and who were anxiously waiting for him to publish his research YEARS AGO.

I think the decent thing for him to do at this point would be to publish.....or at least to stop SAYING that he's "going to publish early next year." Geeez....enough is enough. An explanation as to why he hasnt been able to publish would also be nice.

I know of other doctors out there who are considered "pioneers" and who are actively devoting much of their time to the cause (getting people healthy). Some of them give explanations for not publishing (usually because they focus on treating patients, teaching other doctors, etc.), none of them (with the exception of Dr. Fine) are constantly repeating the same statement year after year with regards to publishing.

I would like to know what it is exactly that has made it so difficult for him to publish all of these years? How is he spending his time? I havent seen any new developments with regards to his research....nothing new being brought up on his website. He's not treating patients. He's not out there getting other doctors to follow his lead? He's not coming forward with any significant discoveries regarding his testing method/theories.....nothing to actually validate his claims.

Most doctors who have made important discoveries DO want it to be known....they want other doctors to be aware of it. They want patients to benefit from it. Whether they publish or not they are still out there spreading the word in one way or another. I havent noticed that Dr. Fine does much of anything except collect the $$ that people spend on his tests. Maybe the rest of the time he's just too busy with his rock band?? :unsure: I dont know.....I just think it would have been nice for him to actually follow through with what he has been saying for so many years.

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considering the huge database of information that he has accumulated over the years, I doubt very seriously if the government will let him publish his statistics & information. If you think everyone has free speech think again. Just like this board that has moderators, to filter out undesirable posts, the people that review these reports have a much larger filter. He would not be the first person under censorship scruntiny, nor the last.

Talk about problems, ever stop to think what would happen if 75% of this country stopped eating gluten grains? There would be problems with the food supply, the medical industry, farm subsidies, and all the problems that would happen if 75% of the population lived an extra 20 years, housing problems, social security problems. In addition there would be problems in the job market because 75% of the workforce would be healthy & would not retire.

In addition to that if it became "official" that wheat was a major problem for most people, then we could not send all that wheat over to third world countries to feed the poor & save them from starvation.

I do not see any other doctors reporting anything celiac related for peer review. If so, I have not read anything about it, nor am I likely to. Maybe another country, but not in the U.S., dare I say never, or at least not anytime soon?

Is it just me, or did anyone else notice how General Mills took that big GLuten Free statement off the front of their package?

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considering the huge database of information that he has accumulated over the years, I doubt very seriously if the government will let him publish his statistics & information. If you think everyone has free speech think again. Just like this board that has moderators, to filter out undesirable posts, the people that review these reports have a much larger filter. He would not be the first person under censorship scrutiny, nor the last.

Talk about problems, ever stop to think what would happen if 75% of this country stopped eating gluten grains? There would be problems with the food supply, the medical industry, farm subsidies, and all the problems that would happen if 75% of the population lived an extra 20 years, housing problems, social security problems. In addition there would be problems in the job market because 75% of the workforce would be healthy & would not retire.

In addition to that if it became "official" that wheat was a major problem for most people, then we could not send all that wheat over to third world countries to feed the poor & save them from starvation.

I do not see any other doctors reporting anything celiac related for peer review. If so, I have not read anything about it, nor am I likely to. Maybe another country, but not in the U.S., dare I say never, or at least not anytime soon?

Is it just me, or did anyone else notice how General Mills took that big GLuten Free statement off the front of their package?

I don't think that there is a vast governmental conspiracy to suppress information regarding the dangers of grain in the US or the world. :unsure:

Dr. Peter Green, is well respected and his research is well known:

http://www.celiacdiseasecenter.columbia.ed...3-StaffBios.htm

People can argue about the pros and cons of Enterolabs till the cows come home. I don't think that it will change minds. It always remains a very hot topic.

But, I have often wondered why those (no one in particular) who support Enterolabs and their work, argue so vehemently. :)

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But, I have often wondered why those (no one in particular) who support Enterolabs and their work, argue so vehemently. :)

I have always wondered why those who don't like Enterolab argue so vehemently also. After all he does not diagnose anything, he doesn't tell anyone that the only issues they have are the antibody reaction that he finds and he doesn't tell anyone that that they shouldn't look for other issues if they do not heal after eliminating the substances that he pinpoints as reactive. He simply finds the antibody reaction and certainly does not diagnose anyone with anything.

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considering the huge database of information that he has accumulated over the years, I doubt very seriously if the government will let him publish his statistics & information. If you think everyone has free speech think again. Just like this board that has moderators, to filter out undesirable posts, the people that review these reports have a much larger filter. He would not be the first person under censorship scruntiny, nor the last.

Talk about problems, ever stop to think what would happen if 75% of this country stopped eating gluten grains? There would be problems with the food supply, the medical industry, farm subsidies, and all the problems that would happen if 75% of the population lived an extra 20 years, housing problems, social security problems. In addition there would be problems in the job market because 75% of the workforce would be healthy & would not retire.

In addition to that if it became "official" that wheat was a major problem for most people, then we could not send all that wheat over to third world countries to feed the poor & save them from starvation.

I do not see any other doctors reporting anything celiac related for peer review. If so, I have not read anything about it, nor am I likely to. Maybe another country, but not in the U.S., dare I say never, or at least not anytime soon?

Is it just me, or did anyone else notice how General Mills took that big GLuten Free statement off the front of their package?

There are currently 14,469 articles about celiac disease on Pub Med. These articles are culled from all over the world, including the USA. They are listed most recent(the bulk of what's available is recent research) and span ALL specialties and subspecialties. Put PubMed on a Google search to find them if you've not been there. I just use celiac disease in the search window. There's a virtual explosion of research happening right now.

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I would respectfully request that you take a closer look at the country of origin for many of the these PubMed articles. I think you will find that most of the current research is not from the US. However, one of the top articles from the US deals with the "cost-containment issue" of first degree relatives coming in for testing. To me, that is very telling. American physicians are in a bind. Celiac is a 100% treatable without any pharmaceutical consumable. How does the medical machine make money off of us? Until they, meaning the pharmaceutical companies, can make money off of us, no well-funded, broad based research will be done in the US. Doctors and the institutions they work for don't bankroll these studies, pharmaceutical companies do.

For our family, his gene testing service was 1/3 the cost out of my pocket than my co-pay through my insurance. And my husband is in the medical research field! :blink:

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Is it just me, or did anyone else notice how General Mills took that big GLuten Free statement off the front of their package?

I noticed they changed the packaging again but there is a big info section on the side of the box that states it's still gluten free.

At least the 2 boxes we got last week have that on the side of my box.

Judy

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"He does not diagnose anything, ...he doesn't tell anyone that that they shouldn't look for other issues."

I do not mean offense to those who defend the good doctor. Many of those who use his tests do indeed think he is diagnosing something. That's a simple fact that is easily verified by looking through some of the posts on this forum. And many of those who think they have been diagnosed then fail to undergo any further tests thinking that they are therefore unnecessary. That's also easily verified by looking through these forums.

I don't think it harms anyone to politely remind these folks that they haven't been diagnosed and advise them that they might inquire regarding further testing.

It looks as if we all agree about that, right?

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I would respectfully request that you take a closer look at the country of origin for many of the these PubMed articles. I think you will find that most of the current research is not from the US. However, one of the top articles from the US deals with the "cost-containment issue" of first degree relatives coming in for testing. To me, that is very telling. American physicians are in a bind. Celiac is a 100% treatable without any pharmaceutical consumable. How does the medical machine make money off of us? Until they, meaning the pharmaceutical companies, can make money off of us, no well-funded, broad based research will be done in the US. Doctors and the institutions they work for don't bankroll these studies, pharmaceutical companies do.

For our family, his gene testing service was 1/3 the cost out of my pocket than my co-pay through my insurance. And my husband is in the medical research field! :blink:

I have read most of these abstracts, and articles if available for the past 5-6 years. I was not implying that the USA doctors are in the forefront of research, but maintaining that research IS being done ,worldwide. In this country, medical research got clipped after Reagan changed the funding .....big Pharma picked it up as well as helping to fund the FDA. One must consider the source and motivation when you are reading a study. I do.

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"He does not diagnose anything, ...he doesn't tell anyone that that they shouldn't look for other issues."

I do not mean offense to those who defend the good doctor. Many of those who use his tests do indeed think he is diagnosing something. That's a simple fact that is easily verified by looking through some of the posts on this forum. And many of those who think they have been diagnosed then fail to undergo any further tests thinking that they are therefore unnecessary. That's also easily verified by looking through these forums.

I don't think it harms anyone to politely remind these folks that they haven't been diagnosed and advise them that they might inquire regarding further testing.

It looks as if we all agree about that, right?

I certainly agree with this. Absolutely, no doubt about it. Anyone reading these topics can see that this is true.

I've been here over 3 years now....and it doesnt matter that Enterolab doesnt claim to diagnose anything. People come to this board for answers and over and over again I've seen it told that Enterolab can give them the answer....and that it is even more accurate than the tests for Celiac.

People DO get the impression that they are getting a diagnosis when they send their $400 to Dr. Fine.

Only 2 days ago I read a new post in which the OP was wondering why they spent their money on Enterolab if they didnt get "diagnosed".

There are people right here on this board implying that Enterolab is the way to go if you want accurate testing. Thats why people are confused when they find out that their positive Enterolab results dont mean that they were diagnosed with Celiac....or anything else for that matter.

As long as people are posting here about their positive Enterolab results....there will also be people here letting them know that it doesnt mean they have a diagnosis. Personally, I feel that its the right thing to do if we really want to give people honest feedback.

Allowing people to believe that they've been diagnosed with something and that they should wait 2 years (or longer) to see if the diet helps them can be dangerous advice....in my opinion.

People should be able to make informed decisions.....and if they are still not feeling well...they should be looking into other things. If we can all agree that Enterolab isnt diagnositic of anything....then it shouldnt be a big deal that some of us want to make that part well known to any newcomers who are looking for a diagnosis. It is VERY obvious that most people who pay for the test are under the impression that they ARE getting a diagnosis.

People who are sick are in a hurry to get answers....if someone tells them they can get their answer from Enterolab....many of them do so ONLY because they believe it is diagnositic.

I honestly feel bad for every post that I made with a recommendation for Enterolab. I feel bad that I was posting without having all of the facts. I feel bad that people spent the money believing they were getting more than they actually got.

Now that I'm more informed....all I can do is make sure that others see both sides before they make a decision.

I dont see anything wrong with that. Shouldnt newbies be made aware (right from the start) that Enterolab isnt diagnostic?? Isnt it the right thing to do?

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I was tested threw enterolab two years ago and did not have the celiac genes. So if i would have stopped at only enterolab, i would of thought i was only gluten sensitive the rest of my life. But i did do blood work and the only thing that came back postive was ttg, after a few months it still went up but my dr was like well maybe its just from the candida issues. So I also had an biopsy for Dh about 18 months ago. It was inconclusinve but the dr was like well maybe its DH, but u dont have the celiac genes. So I was still hanging.

Well this week I got my biopsy results back and I was confirmed 100 percent positve for DH, so I am now an diagnosed celiac. If i would of just stuck to dr fines advice that i was just gluten intolerant, i could of round up doing my body more harm then good. Because I was really thinking of adding gluten back into my diet sometime in my life once i got other issues taken care of.

So I am thankful enterolab pushed me in the right direction, but I am so glad I had others tell me to do blood work. I dont regret paying 400 for his test, but i cant tell people to do them or not to do them. Its their choice what the choose to do.

paula

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I have read most of these abstracts, and articles if available for the past 5-6 years. I was not implying that the USA doctors are in the forefront of research, but maintaining that research IS being done ,worldwide. In this country, medical research got clipped after Reagan changed the funding .....big Pharma picked it up as well as helping to fund the FDA. One must consider the source and motivation when you are reading a study. I do.

But that is what she said! She said it was being done worldwide but not in the US. And, using PubMed as you suggested, it is easily shown that is a TRUE statement. Very few articles are from the US.

Do you believe that research from another country affects treatment protocols in the US? Maybe if you are being treated by Dr. Peter Green or someone at the Columbia Celiac Clinic? Try mentioning a study done in Spain to your local GI. You get the Homer Simpson "doh" look....That research MIGHT affect us in a decade. Not to be too dramatic, but I think I would be dead if I had had to wait another decade.

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There are a small number of top tier journals (and a lot more that are specific to one type of research). If your research is published in Nature (for example) it is completely irrelevant where it was conducted.

If your research was not up to par, it doesn't matter where it was conducted. If it's not published in a good journal, it's unlikely to be noticed.

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Allowing people to believe that they've been diagnosed with something and that they should wait 2 years (or longer) to see if the diet helps them can be dangerous advice....in my opinion.

Would you mind providing a link to where Enterolab's web site tells people to do the diet for two years before they start looking for conditions other than celiac or gluten intolerance if their symptoms don't improve?

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Would you mind providing a link to where Enterolab's web site tells people to do the diet for two years before they start looking for conditions other than celiac or gluten intolerance if their symptoms don't improve?

Yes, please provide us with that link. I just read through his website, and I find nothing to that effect.

https://www.enterolab.com/Home.htm

EnteroLab is registered with the U.S. Government's Department of Health and Human Services department as part of the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments (CLIA). This agency oversees clinical laboratory standards and quality. We have also opted for (at our own expense) third-party accreditation from COLA, a non-profit national laboratory accreditation organization (www.cola.org). EnteroLab passed this accreditation inspection in 2001 and re-accreditation in 2003, 2005, and 2008 with the highest standards. COLA accreditation is given only to laboratories that apply rigid standards of quality in day-to-day operations and pass a rigorous on-site laboratory survey. COLA is approved by the federal government and sponsored by the American Medical Association, the American College of Physicians-American Society of Internal Medicine, the American Academy of Family Physicians, the College of American Pathologists, and the American Osteopathic Association.

This looks very impressive to me.

Patients with gluten sensitivity should be evaluated for nutrient malabsorption because if present, this means there is small intestinal damage and institution of a gluten-free diet is imperative to prevent osteoporosis and other nutrient deficiency syndromes. Furthermore, a test at the time of diagnosis serves as a baseline to be compared to later if needed.

Patients with gluten sensitivity should be evaluated for nutrient malabsorption Now this doesn't sound like he is telling anyone they do not need a doctor. Furthermore, a test at the time of diagnosis serves as a baseline to be compared to later if needed. I think this says it all.

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Would you mind providing a link to where Enterolab's web site tells people to do the diet for two years before they start looking for conditions other than celiac or gluten intolerance if their symptoms don't improve?

If you reread my post I stated that the information is coming from posts right here on this board....not Enterolab. These posts can be easily found...I've seen lots of them and it was actually the same thing that I was told when I joined this board. When I ordered Enterolab tests I believed that I was getting some type of diagnosis. I know that I'm not the only person here who was under the impression that Enterolab was diagnostic of something at the time that the test was purchased.

I first heard of Enterolab when I joined this board......and this is where alot of Enterolab's business comes from. There's nothing wrong with that.....what I'm saying is that people who are coming here for answers should be made aware that they cant get a diagnosis from Enterolab. Just because they have a postive Enterolab result doesnt mean that they are dealing with the same diagnosis that someone with a positive biopsy is dealing with. They may have some other issue totally unrelated to Celiac Disease......and they may continue to have unresolved health issues because they are under the impression that they have a disease that they dont actually have.

What is the harm in letting people know this BEFORE they invest their money in Dr. Fine's test?

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Patients with gluten sensitivity should be evaluated for nutrient malabsorption because if present, this means there is small intestinal damage and institution of a gluten-free diet is imperative to prevent osteoporosis and other nutrient deficiency syndromes.

Where are the studies that Dr. Fine has done which prove this statement to be true? Is he following up on the people who had high malabsorption scores to see if this improved while on the diet?

I had high malabsorption which did not resolve after 3 years on the diet. It was not caused by gluten....I have other issues which caused malabsorption to be elevated. I dont think that Dr. Fine can determine what exactly is causing malabsorption in every person who purchases his test.....especially since there is no follow up whatsoever.

This is exactly the problem with Enterolab....you read this and you get the impression that everything will be OK if you remove gluten. You get the impression that gluten is the cause of all symptoms related to malabsorption....but for MANY people this is not the case. Its misleading.

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I knew exactly what I was getting when I ordered my Enterolab test. If you spend a few minutes reading the FAQ and the other materials he provides he says exactly what it is and what it isn't. If anyone thinks he diagnoses celiac disease then they've been lazy or careless and haven't read up on what he offers.

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Rachel, I am a little confused, because in your sig lines, you have "Diagnosed by Enterolab." You have been one of the most vehement against Dr. Fine, so this is a bit confusing. You have also made many claims for several other conditions, such as metal toxicities, etc. many of which have no medical backing at all. So why the particular vehemence against Enterolab? I am not trying to be mean here but these appear contradictory to your stance.

If it had not been for Enterolab, I would not be gluten-free today because I had no serious intestinal symptoms. My symptoms were neurological and had I gone to a regular doctor, I would have been told to take migraine medications and that's it. I knew there was more going on, especially when I ate gluten foods, but I'm sure I would have been laughed out of every doctor's office. No gluten and little casein means no migraines for me. Many of you with actual celiac disease can't get doctors to recognize you. What about those of us who have DQ1 and 2.2 genes? Most doctors just don't get it - conventional medicine is far behind. Yes, it will be wonderful when/if Dr. Fine publishes, but I am happy that his service just exists.

Laurie

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