Thiamine deficiency and Histamine Intolerance. Is there a link?

[Rogol72]

Folks,

I wanted to ask some of the wise sages on the forum about Histamine Intolerance. Is there a link between Thiamine deficiency and Histamine Intolerance since it's hard to get the RDA of Thiamine it in the diet if you're not taking a B complex? Because I don't consume dairy, I was eating sardines (for the calcium content) sometimes daily and sometimes every other day for an extended period of time ... along with smoked Mackerel or smoked Salmon once or twice a week. So I think I filled up my histamine rain barrel to overflowing since I'd get the sinus/forehead/top of head pressure and fogginess (it's a challange to think clearly!) after such meals which would dissipate after several hours. Since then, I've removed the sardines (added a gluten-free DF SF Calcium/D3 and vitamin K2 supplement) and smoked and fermented foods. Vast improvements in the above mentioned symptoms.

The lady on Triangle Holistic Health Youtube Channel has some very informative videos on histamine intolerance ... she's Celiac and dairy free. Leaky gut clearly has a part to play in histamine intolerance too.

I thought it would be a good topic to kick off a conversation since Thiamine has been extensively discussed here before.

[knitty kitty]

Hello, @Rogol72,

What a nice topic to discuss!  Yes, there's a link between mast cells, histamine intolerance and thiamine deficiency.

Using your smoked fish episode as a starting point....

Smoked foods contain sodium sulfite which triggers mast cell degranulation.

 

Sodium Sulfite-Induced Mast Cell Pyroptosis and Degranulation

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34191510/

 

Histamine Intolerance Originates in the Gut

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8069563/

And...

All disease begins in the (leaky) gut: role of zonulin-mediated gut permeability in the pathogenesis of some chronic inflammatory diseases

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6996528/

 

 

Thiamine has been scientifically shown to modulate mast cell degranulation.

 

Increased mast cell degranulation within thalamus in early pre-lesion stages of an experimental model of Wernicke's encephalopathy

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10411347/

"These data suggest that mast cell degranulation is a very early response induced by TD (Thiamine Deficiency)..."

And...

Regional changes in brain histamine levels following dietary-induced thiamine deficiency in rats

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3221531/

"These data present a new finding that thiamine deficiency affects the central histaminergic neuron system as well as other monoaminergic systems."

 

And...

Effects of thiamine administration on hypothermia and hypothalamic histamine levels in dietary-induced thiamine deficient rats

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2090843/

"...the increased histamine levels in the hypothalamus, especially those in its anterior region, are closely related to the hypothermia in thiamine-deficient rats."

 

"What does the hypothalamus do?"

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/312628

 

 

Mast cells releasing histamine is part of the immune response to antigens like gluten, casein, or viruses like Covid.  

 

Mast cells activated by SARS-CoV-2 release histamine which increases IL-1 levels causing cytokine storm and inflammatory reaction in COVID-19

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32945158/

 

High dose Thiamine is used to quench the out of control immune response in Covid patients.

 

Repurposing Treatment of Wernicke-Korsakoff Syndrome for Th-17 Cell Immune Storm Syndrome and Neurological Symptoms in COVID-19: Thiamine Efficacy and Safety, In-Vitro Evidence and Pharmacokinetic Profile.

https://europepmc.org/article/MED/33737877

"Thiamine, a very safe drug even at very high doses, could be repurposed for treating the Th17 mediated IL-17 immune storm, and the subsequent neurological symptoms observed in COVID-19. Further studies using thiamine as an intervention/prevention strategy in COVID-19 patients could identify its precise anti-inflammatory role."

Cobalamine, Vitamin C, Pyridoxine, and Folate help get rid of the histamine, while Thiamine helps calm the immune response.  Niacin and Riboflavin are also needed to help the other B vitamins do their jobs.  A B Complex supplement should contain all eight of the essential B vitamins.  Thiamine needs magnesium to work properly, so a magnesium supplement would be beneficial.  

Oh, there's calcium in cooked green leafy vegetables that is better absorbed than the calcium in dairy.  

Liver is a great source of all the B vitamins and important minerals like iron and zinc.  

 

[Rogol72]

7 minutes ago, knitty kitty said:

Hello, @Rogol72,

What a nice topic to discuss!  Yes, there's a link between mast cells, histamine intolerance and thiamine deficiency.

Using your smoked fish episode as a starting point....

Smoked foods contain sodium sulfite which triggers mast cell degranulation.

 

Sodium Sulfite-Induced Mast Cell Pyroptosis and Degranulation

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34191510/

 

Histamine Intolerance Originates in the Gut

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8069563/

And...

All disease begins in the (leaky) gut: role of zonulin-mediated gut permeability in the pathogenesis of some chronic inflammatory diseases

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6996528/

 

 

Thiamine has been scientifically shown to modulate mast cell degranulation.

 

Increased mast cell degranulation within thalamus in early pre-lesion stages of an experimental model of Wernicke's encephalopathy

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10411347/

"These data suggest that mast cell degranulation is a very early response induced by TD (Thiamine Deficiency)..."

And...

Regional changes in brain histamine levels following dietary-induced thiamine deficiency in rats

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3221531/

"These data present a new finding that thiamine deficiency affects the central histaminergic neuron system as well as other monoaminergic systems."

 

And...

Effects of thiamine administration on hypothermia and hypothalamic histamine levels in dietary-induced thiamine deficient rats

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2090843/

"...the increased histamine levels in the hypothalamus, especially those in its anterior region, are closely related to the hypothermia in thiamine-deficient rats."

 

"What does the hypothalamus do?"

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/312628

 

 

Mast cells releasing histamine is part of the immune response to antigens like gluten, casein, or viruses like Covid.  

 

Mast cells activated by SARS-CoV-2 release histamine which increases IL-1 levels causing cytokine storm and inflammatory reaction in COVID-19

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32945158/

 

High dose Thiamine is used to quench the out of control immune response in Covid patients.

 

Repurposing Treatment of Wernicke-Korsakoff Syndrome for Th-17 Cell Immune Storm Syndrome and Neurological Symptoms in COVID-19: Thiamine Efficacy and Safety, In-Vitro Evidence and Pharmacokinetic Profile.

https://europepmc.org/article/MED/33737877

"Thiamine, a very safe drug even at very high doses, could be repurposed for treating the Th17 mediated IL-17 immune storm, and the subsequent neurological symptoms observed in COVID-19. Further studies using thiamine as an intervention/prevention strategy in COVID-19 patients could identify its precise anti-inflammatory role."

Cobalamine, Vitamin C, Pyridoxine, and Folate help get rid of the histamine, while Thiamine helps calm the immune response.  Niacin and Riboflavin are also needed to help the other B vitamins do their jobs.  A B Complex supplement should contain all eight of the essential B vitamins.  Thiamine needs magnesium to work properly, so a magnesium supplement would be beneficial.  

Oh, there's calcium in cooked green leafy vegetables that is better absorbed than the calcium in dairy.  

Liver is a great source of all the B vitamins and important minerals like iron and zinc.  

 

Excellent information! I came across some very interesting ideas by Morley Robbins ... of https://therootcauseprotocol.com/  ... on Youtube, suggesting that maybe histamine intolerance is related to a Copper deficiency and/or Iron overload (not specific to Coeliacs). He's also discussed the importance of Magnesium.

[knitty kitty]

That's really interesting!  

I've recently been reading about anemia unresponsive to iron supplementation therapy actually may be copper deficiency.  

Thiamine needs Magnesium to work properly, a co-factor.  Having Magnesium deficiency can affect how well the body can utilize Thiamine.  Thiamine is needed to make different types of blood cells.

Alteration in MDA, GSH level and hematological changes due to thiamine deficiency in Mus musculus

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6853013/

There's several posters who have said they have thalassemia and/or iron overload.  

[Rogol72]

18 hours ago, knitty kitty said:

That's really interesting!  

I've recently been reading about anemia unresponsive to iron supplementation therapy actually may be copper deficiency.  

Thiamine needs Magnesium to work properly, a co-factor.  Having Magnesium deficiency can affect how well the body can utilize Thiamine.  Thiamine is needed to make different types of blood cells.

Alteration in MDA, GSH level and hematological changes due to thiamine deficiency in Mus musculus

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6853013/

There's several posters who have said they have thalassemia and/or iron overload.  

Switching topics. Does anyone happen to know what percentage of Coeliacs have the MTHFR gene mutation? I believe this can also have an effect on histamine intolerance if I'm not mistaken. I've never had the test done, but it wouldn't surprise me if I did have it, having 2 autoimmune conditions.

[knitty kitty]

The MTHFR genes mean they need the methylation forms of certain vitamins like methylcobalamine and methylfolate.  

 

[Wheatwacked]

The backup to MTHFR issues; there seems to be lots of variations; for methylation of homocysteine, is Choline.  That frees up folate for other functions. Looks like your diet may be short on potassium.

The B Vitamins and Choline

Quote

Untreated celiac disease may be associated with hyperhomocysteinemia caused by a combination of vitamin deficiencies and variants in the MTHFR gene. Abnormalities do not consistently improve with gluten-free diet. The abnormal findings could result from vitamin deficiencies or variant MTHFR status.   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16917400/#:~:text=Conclusions%3A Untreated celiac disease may,deficiencies or variant MTHFR status.

Quote

 

 

[Rogol72]

20 minutes ago, Wheatwacked said:

The backup to MTHFR issues; there seems to be lots of variations; for methylation of homocysteine, is Choline.  That frees up folate for other functions. Looks like your diet may be short on potassium.

The B Vitamins and Choline

 

Thanks @Wheatwacked, it's the histamine issue that I'm working on addressing at the moment. That's what got me thinking about methylation and I suspect I have the MTHFR thingy going on. Everything else is fine. Bananas though seem to give me a histamine reaction. Yes, potassium intake could be better, and Vitamin E since I don't tolerate nuts.