gfp

Blood work is not enough. An endoscopy is the only way to truly diagnose Celiac and or rule it out.

I have to disagree with this in the strongest possible way....

A biopsy is practically useless for diagnossing celiac, which doesn't mean they don;t have a use but as a diagnositc tool they are worse than useless.

I'm not using worse than useless as a metaphone I mean it quite literally....

Firstly the biopsy only measures the current amount of damage to the villi that are tested. That's it... the isides of your intestine lain out would be about the same size as a tennis court .. each biopsy sample is about the size of a pin head but lets put it into context saying the size of a blade of grass...

Imagine a tennis court of grass with a few "weeds" for the sake of arguament lets say little baby wheat stalks the same sort of size as the grass. (we are still being generous in scale here)...

Now Im going to blindfold you and give you a little periscope..to see through. and at the end of this periscope is a little clamp.... your job is to test some of the samples of the grass and determine if it has wheat growing in it or not...

What are your chances of taking a single sample and it containing wheat?

the answer of course depends how much wheat there is....

lets say its 1:1000 and the tennis lawn also has some tother things growing in it, the odd dandylion or whatever drifted in ton the wind... even with 1:1000 (which is still thousands of wheat shoots) your chance of finding it randomly is slim to non...

If you take 5 samples its better... if you start being able to tell baby wheat from grass then it gets highrer again but its certainly never going to be a reliable method with only 1:1000 being wheat.

Damage to villi can be completely microscopic and not even visble to the naked eye.. so at this point your sampling randomly or looking for areas that might have a different color? look slightly different...

Many people are biopsied and found negative and then a few months later re-biopsied and found positive....

Its all down to a matter of chance and how much damage you have done.

On the other hand you can wait until the guy mows the court and take the cuttings and then test each one or altogether for the presence of wheat...

This is more or less what the blood test does... when a full suite is taken...

The really really bad thing about relying on biopsy is simply that if its negative your options are ... ignore the positive blood test (if you had one), ignore positive response to diet (if you have one) and then set out to eat gluten for an extended period until you actually do enough damage to get a positive result.... and that damage may never repair itself totally.

A gluten challenge aiming for a positve biopsy is fundamentally designed to do enough damage to make the sampling more sucessful....

The second important reason it you can have celiac disease and not even have GI damage.... and this is becoming increasingly the way research shows. Patients with celiac can go on to develop other autoimmune diseases... even without ever showing a damaged villi....

In reality villi get damaged all the time anyway.... just like other parts of the body and they divide and repair as a normal part of life. However unlike for example the cells lining the stomach they are not designed to constantly divide and repair... hence their enforced increased rate of division and repair is what causes the cancer risk....

If you imagine a threshhold where your body repairs villi at a steady rate then significant amounts of damage will only ever be seen once you cross this threshold....

until you do its a case of n are destoyed and n are repaired on a daily basis.. then chance of finding a damaged one in the millions of healthy ones is pretty small...

Some things such as the body being stressed due to illness, pregnancy etc. can act as a trigger... the body goes from a state of damge/repair to the damage being more than can be repaired... or the same thing just happnes slowly as we get older.

Other irritants including h. pylori can upset the balance along with lymes and others...

What is important is once this threshold is crossed, its crossed... pretty much no going back.

Medical opinion varies....

Your daughter would be classed as celiac in Italy...

Negative IgA is meaninglless without TgA... and meaningless in young children anyway...

Negative biopsy is pretty meaningless all the time...

Non of these being negative rules out celiac but it only really depends on the defintion you use for celiac.

Its just semantics at the moment...

Noone understands WHY some people are IgA +ve and IgG negative or visa versa...

On top of this I think an increasing number of us look as gluten-intolerance as celiac disease that is still not fully developed.

The point is you are either celiac or not... retrospectively many of us can look back at symptoms developing and perhaps then note changes but the point is we always were celiac.... to some extent or another...

The amount of damage to your body doesn't seem to make any difference... perhaps when we are younger or fitter the body repairs villi faster and so biopsies tend to be negative but that doesn';t mean damage isn't being done... we just are not observing it..

As everyone else has said.. the treatment is exactly the same...

Its worth repeating Nantzie

I thought at first that maybe I wouldn't have to be as careful because I'm just gluten intolerant, but it turns out I'm actually extremely sensitive to even the smallest amount of second-hand gluten. So degree of intestinal damage doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the degree of sensitivity.

and what happygirl wrote on a different thread

Open Original Shared Link

I am stilling dealing with the idea that I need to have a gluten-free diet.

My problem with changing my diet is twofold:

First, I am a huge beer and bread fan. Going gluten-free, while not impossible, will rock my world. My only real symptom of celiac is my symmetrical rash that has been quite persistant for 20 years.

So...if I ignore this diseas, what are my increased risks for bowel cancer and/or osteoporosis?

Also, what is celiac has been a kind of calorie-lowering diet for me? I am afraid that if my lower intestine functions properly I will pack on the pounds.

The risks of bowel cancer or any cancer are largely dependent on genetics anyway....

As with something like tobacco .. some people smoke 60 a day for 90 years without ever developing lung cancer... others smoke 10 a day for 5 years and do... and others don't smoke and get it anyway....

If this were the only risk.... its one many might choose to ignore.... just as many people choose to still smoke...

It is however just one of several hundred fatal or chronic complications of celiac....

These include but are certainly not limited to other cancers but also include hypothyroidism or hashimoto's or one of hundreds of really unpleasant way's to die.... and more links seem to be found every year....

The problem is many auto immune diseases are just plain nasty.... and tend to run in groups because one triggers another.

Additionally it can also trigger things like diabetes ...

Neurological illnesses are equally nasty and also linked to celiac... so bowel cancer and osteo porosis although certainly not nice and certainly a risk are just one of the complications...

Perhaps the most important thing is that at the moment you are almost non-symptomatic and the chance is that if you continue eating gluten you will start to develop more symptoms and perhaps other complications and at this point there is no going back...

Its difficult to say the exact risk but its between pretty high and a certaintly somewhere...

The National Guard can be, and has been, called on to do all the same functions as active duty. In fact, we are being used in large numbers in the current conflict. Our base, which is solely an Air National Guard base, actually had to train additional security forces personnel because they were sent over in large numbers to the Middle East. I actually tried to volunteer for security forces (my career field is combat communications), but they had cut off funding at that point. Besides that, my unit has been deployed to the Middle East and will most likely be deployed again in the near future. Anyone who is deployed, regardless of their job classification, is prepared and trained to deal with some level of combat.

All combat communications personnel (of which I am one), including guard members, go to a special school to train for direct combat. They give us M-16s fitted with lasers, and we do very real war games where there are well-trained aggressors with night vision and high powered scopes attacking us. A lot of these "aggressors" have had war experience. They train us to dig fox holes, about "friendly fire," how to sweep out snipers, how to keep moving because a moving target is a more difficult target. They train us in how to address various outsiders who might try to gain access to our area and when to use force and not use force, as well as how and when to detain and/or disarm aggressors. The aggressors sometimes stormed our camp, and we had to respond. We could get "killed" and "wounded" (the lasers could set off sounds that would indicate a kill or a "near miss"). Some of us were captured. They teach us how to survive on our own without supply - how to test for poison in possible foodstuffs to be found in the wild, how to treat medical situations without medical supplies.

Besides the fact that they put so much effort and expense in training us in how to avoid bullets and be prepared to resist aggressors, my military would not be throwing me out of the military if I was only a bullet-catcher to them. But they're in process of throwing me out because of gluten sensitivity. It remains to be seen whether or not I'll actually be cast out, but I think I will be. I've at least been put on a temporary hold from any service. And that's because they don't just want a bullet-catcher. They want someone who can be highly functional and capable of repelling the enemy or supporting others who are repelling the enemy in those critical moments. They do not want dead weight. They can't afford dead weight. Dead weight bullet-catchers lose battles, which is why there are medical and psychological ceriteria which determine who can and can't be in our American military, which is quite frankly currently the premier military in the world.

The reason we haven't dealt with much in the way of attacks on our land is because our government has largely had a policy of keeping the war off our shores. This is not a mean thing. This is a responsible policy used to protect our people. If we allowed people to take the fight here, our people would be in more danger. I don't think it's wrong for us to do what we can to keep the fight off our shores. We have a very, very efficient homeland defense - though not impermiable, for sure, it is quite effective. If it wasn't, we would have surely experienced a much greater direct loss by now.

Where are you from, by the way? The UK?

But I diverge from celiac disease, so I'll stop here.

Originally the UK....

My point was really that there is a difference between being attacked and going abroad to perform what are termed police actions....

I doubt me saying it will change anything but I personally would have different feelings about joining a militia who's purpose is defensive and joining a standing army who's purpose at best can be described as passively agressive...

The problem is perhaps the mixing up of the two.... ???

There is a huge difference between going to a foreign country where you have an overwhelming air dominance and a pretty much complete ability to protect your compounds and being invaded.

Even being on the edge of invasion as the UK was in WWII.... is completely different... again...

If you look at my generation from the UK we are really the 1st to partially start getting over the huge cultural changes brought about by rationing in WWII. This is not unimportant from a celiac perspective....

My grandmothers generation lived through severare and complete rationing... right into the 50's and this influenced the type of food we eat immensely along with the fact that most women homebuiilders lots their right to be home buiilders and were "conscripted" to work in factories and food production... and the UK was really on the periphery of this...

The thing is even in the general population niceties about food went out of the window.... celiac wasn't really known about then but if it had been the right to gluten-free food and even the right to have that food labelled would be withdrawn... even in the UK rationing was basically providing the minimum nutritional needs in the form that provided the least drain on the society and freed people up for the war effort.

My uncle tried to join the RAF as a pilot and was refused because (being too young wasn't an issue) wearing glasses was...

During the battle of Britian the average life expectancy in flying-hours was

E. B. Haslam, Journal of Strategic Studies (June, 1981)

It was estimated in the summer of the battle that every pilot kept in action for more than six months would be shot down because he was exhausted or stale, or even because he had lost the will to fight. In terms of flying hours the fighter pilot's life expectancy could be measured at eighty-seven.

Bomber command had a 75% loss rate on long term missions.... any bomber run was basically statistically suicide...

Fighter command commisioned disposable aircraft like the Mosquito made from plywood because there was an ever ending queue of young lads ready to die but only so many raw materials and so my uncle was accepted into the RAF!!

Once the ideal candidates are dead then the non ideal candidates are put forwards...

Living in an enclosed and protected compound with air superiorty and the abilty to resupply ration packs is a far cry from a real war against a power of similar strengh and technology. I have spent a fair part of my life living in paramilitary compounds in not too disimilar situations to peace keeping forces... however the largest threats have always been small arms and landmines... and the odd RPG... not living in foxholes getting shelled or bombed....

What I'm really trying to say is in a real war you don't have lines of supply... at least not consistently...people eat what they can get. The main control over most modern warfare has literally been to cut off lines of supply.... and supplying a front line with ammunition is always going to be more important than supplying them with a gluten-free ration pack....

The reason we haven't dealt with much in the way of attacks on our land is because our government has largely had a policy of keeping the war off our shores. This is not a mean thing. This is a responsible policy used to protect our people. If we allowed people to take the fight here, our people would be in more danger. I don't think it's wrong for us to do what we can to keep the fight off our shores. We have a very, very efficient homeland defense - though not impermiable, for sure, it is quite effective. If it wasn't, we would have surely experienced a much greater direct loss by now.

Its certainly no mean thing...

As to is it a good thing or bad thing...?

That basically depends on how you value human life.

I think its completly normal that people are more shocked when their compatriates are killed than some people in a country they don't even know. Its a basic human tribalism....

However the deeper implications I doubt we will agree on... I find the death of a Iraqi guy fighting to kick what he see's as invadors out of his country as equally tragic to an American guy or British guy... sure my first reaction to seeing British tropps killed is stronger perhaps but if I analyse it the two are equally tragic and no more or no less tragic than a school kid being gunned down at college...

We are more immediately affected by what we perceive as a threat at home and it makes us feel more uncomfrotable and less safe... but it doesn't make one human life worth more than another.

The UK lived for years with an ever present threat, I persopnally have witnessed (been close enough to hear) two IRA bombs go off and on one occaision close enough to feel it...

Throughout the 1970's and most of the 80's the primary funding for the IRA came from ... yep the USA...

The US allowed them through inaction (and coddling the voters) to buy weapons, set up training camps and learn how to make bombs...

Lots of people giving a few $ for "the people back home" in bars throughout NY, Chicago etc. were not specifically giving money to blow up shopping malls or train stations but they gave money all the same.. and noone thought to stop them legally... using the US as a training ground and weapons/munitions supply base.

Indeed the only people who felt strongly about the "Irish situation" were those who supported the violence and bombings... and the majority had little to think about... its just a country 3000 miles away... which doesn't mean they disagreed with it, it just wasn't a issue that anyone wanted to vote for in a positive sense... the only people who would stop voting for any candidate were those in favor of the violent methods... and the only time an average American voter might consider the "problem" was deciding to take a vacation in the UK or not...

That's not meant to be an attack, its just the way things were.... people dying thousands of miles away, even if they share culural ties and the same language is nowhere near the same as your own people dying...

Just to put this in context the tragic events of last week are of course terrible but the sort of thing the UK population lived through on a regular basis in the 70's and 80's...

So because of this I perhaps have a different view.... on "keeping the war off our shores"....

The right to a preemptive strike on a country at the other side of the world who have no means of actually attacking you in a serious way is not really something I can support.... it doesn;t make sense that hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's have been killed in order to prevent a guerilla type attack.... that might claim 100 .. history seems to say that Americans are perfectly capable of doing this for themselves... excluding 9/11 which had nothing to do with Iraq anyway (and even if it did, its a tragic event but in the end 2000 people vs half a million just isn't a measured response... nor does it make it any less likely that the US is liekly to be attacked in a similar way again.... indeed it increases the chances of the number of people who feel strongly enough about it to be suicide bombers. It doesn't approach the number of US deaths each year by firearms incidents...

Whatever the arguaments there are far more Americans killing other Americans than the Iraqi's could ever have achieved...until the war was taken to them. Sorry I said excluding 9/11.... what I mean is shottings, bombings of 20-30 people are unfrtunately relatively common place... and the fact they were not done by a foreign aggressor doesn't make people any more safe???

It just makes people feel more safe....

Your chance of being killed in America in a random incident like Columbine or Virginia tech by another american or from some foreign power is proably well les than being hit by lightening and far less than dying in auto incident...

Its easy to overplay the risk.... and make people scared....when they might do better to reduce their driving by a very large margin...

I tend to agree with sweetfudge....(on stuff lfoating about)

I guess it really depends.... the difference between a non-franchised BBQ resto and McDo's as well....

As the resto owner he makes decisions to change the oils.... but with McDo I think everything is formula...

Oil goes in and each frying is logged... (its all electronic they press the botton and ....) ... and after either so many uses or every day the oil is changed....

The way I view McDonalds is more like a production line than a resto... everything is done to formulas calcualted at HQ to maximise proftability.... and equally give consistency across diofferent franchises/branches (I hestite to use the word resteraunts).. in a way if one was "better" than another this is against the corporate model which is really you should be able to walk into one in NY or Denver and get the "same" meal....

Your friend ..I would guess would find this concept abhorent... His business model is more likely he wants his food to be better so people will come to his place not elsewhere... McDonalds as an organisation don't care so long as its another McDO...

Regular mayo is raw egg, oil, vinegar or lemon juice, salt and an emulsifier like mustard optional....

anything else is something close to mayo with additives....

I certainly understand you didn't mean any harm , but I must beg to differ about the job of a military person being to take a bullet. Our job is not to take a bullet. Our job is to do our best to avoid taking the bullet so we can take out as many of their guys as possible. That's why our government spends so much money training us and on our protective equipment.

I do agree with your statement, "If you don't like it, don't sign."

With that said, an update on my situation: As stated in a prior post, I'm in the Air National Guard. This is the state component of the Air Force. This past weekend, when I went in for my annual physical assessment, I was put on profile. This means that they marked me as undeployable, and therefore, unpayable. I can't serve until I get a negative diagnosis for gluten sensitivity.

The doctor I went in to see was going to let me through and allow me to just talk to my commander about it and have an understanding, but on second thought, he sent me over to the doctor in the room next door because he was a pediatric GI doctor.

Glad you didn't take it the wrong way....

With all due respect and taking your constitution + bill of rights .. the purpose of a military is to defend the country from a clear and present danger.

To some extent this differentiates the national guard and state militias from a "professional" army who might be required to help others out or perform police actions.

I believe (but this is my personal viewpoint) signing up to defend your country/state in dire need is not the same as being sent around the world to perform police actions... (without geting in to the justification or not of those actions)... indeed from memory only the 12th ammendment actually applies and then only to slavery... from memory the text saying "or any territory over which we hold sway" (or similar)... No point this becoming political... I don't mean it like that...

Regarding celiac... etc. there is a very clear difference between fighting to defend your country from someone actively trying to occupy it ... with the possible intent to kill or imprison your family and subjegate your population and performing actions elsewhere when there is no direct threat.

Our job is not to take a bullet. Our job is to do our best to avoid taking the bullet so we can take out as many of their guys as possible.

To a point because it really depends on the situation....

At the point at which your country is occupied or in the process of being occupied everything changes...

Whereby it seems acceptable to cluster bomb civilians and follow it up with a gunship in a far away place in order to "take out" a a few possible "insurgents" and minimise losses of your own.. most people wouldn't be that happy if the target happened to be one of your own cities with your own population....

As this hasn't actually happened to the US since the civil war... Americans tend to have a different opinion over this than countries that lost huge percentages of their civilian population during WWII.... however I really think the whole celiac issue is kinda pointless at the point where you are put in a position of defending somewhere until the last man is killed.

Just to add.... you can't be 100% safe.... even in hospital he could get glutened because very few hospital kitchens really can guarantee gluten-free....

Its pretty sad but that's just the way it is....

Funny thing is they can keep someone in a sterile room, free of bacteria ... free of dust etc. etc. but not feeding them gluten seems too challenging?

s,

That's terrible. What do they do for a reaction in the ER? Did you both eat the exact same thing? What does a 20 month old with severe wheat and rice allergies eat at Outback? I've only been there once, not since being gluten-free. Hope he's OK.

best regards, lm

Erm ... good question....

I'm really not sure what people expect? If you eat out (and I do) then regardless of the care a resto takes accidents are going to happen.

I have never had a problem there.

You are always taking a chance.... you can do everything you can to mitigate the risk and pull it in your favor but at the end of the day its a risk... just one which is probably better than walking across a highhway with a paper bag over your head.

Incidentally people do this all the time in Egypt as a way to test their faith.... who knows, perhaps they get a kick out of it too like I did bungie jumping... but resto's can never be risk free... unless they are 100% gluten-free...

Someone did that to me, I'd have them out the door on their rear, married or not. I'm not celiac, my wife is, and I guess she's lucky that it was me that did the research and me that bullied her into eating properly and cutting out the gluten, so we don't have to do this. I'm glad that we live far enough away from our families that its been nearly a year since they've cooked for us, so they've had time to let it settle into their heads that you can't kill gluten by cooking it well, that its not a faddy weight loss diet, and that 'just once slice of bread' will actually put her in the hospital. [My wife gets a delerium inducing fever when she gets glutened.]

Deliberately poisoning someone like that... to me it feels like a rape. I've had it before- a close friend of mine made a coffee cake and brought it into work. He didn't tell me it was coffee until I was halfway through it. I couldn't taste it because between the cinnamon, mandarins, cream and peanuts the coffee wasn't all that strong. The migrane cost me four days wages and set our entire production team back a week, and I nearly nailed some very sensitive parts of his anatomy to his workbench when I finally got back into work. I'm glad I didn't have a partner or children to care for at that point.

This really illustrates what I'm trying to say, even though you missed it....

Because your wife was so sick and because you care for her so much you bullied and corerced her into the diet.

In the end getting her to do something she didn't want to do....because you wanted her to be better...

In the end you managed t convince her to try the diet...

What I'm trying to point out is if angel42's husband really truly believed she couldn't get ill from a shared strainer and that she was making her life difficult out of self-delusion then he was trying to help.....

Unfortunately there are hundreds of MD's who think the same thing....

Its not really possible for us to judge exactly what he tought..only he knows that.

It really hinges on if he was testing (experimenting) or trying to prove a point so she could be "free" of what he considered self delusional and self destructive behavior.

Either way its wrong..... but they are two different things IMHO.

To quote Kyalesyin

I'd have them out the door on their rear, married or not.

Yep if someone decided to experiment just to see or for their own amusement....

but if they really beleived it couldn't do me any harm and might help me realise I was being obsessive that's different... Biy..I'd be upset... boy we'd have some rows and they would have some explaining to do...

There are 101 little factors and components to this... like WHY and they are all interconnected, for instance the price of gluten-free food might have played a part? the need for new cooking stuff...

It could have been spur of the moment when he got to draining the pasta and he thought ah-to hell a shared strainer can't hurt or it could have been planned... and he could even have been half way though draining using the wrong collander when he realised. then thought Oh heck... what's it matter the doctor says it can't possibly hurt her and she's just making life diffucult for herself... I'll let her just have it and then I can prove to her she was being delusional.....

So many people here seem so ready to condemn at the worst possible level....

Just because the guy is guilty of one level doesn't automatically mean he's guilty of the worse possible scenario....

The guy is guilty of being misinfomed, certainly just like 90% of the medical profession.... however that doesn't mean he set out to deliberatly poision his wife!

Some while ago we had someone who's hubby went to the wrong McDo.... for the fries... because it was "on his way" ... and someone got sick? The person was taking a risk anyway, the husband just forgot to inform he had gone to the other McDo's...

How many mothers and fathers of gluten-free kids or husbands/wives have ANY gluten in thier kitchen at all?

Its really not THAT different... sooner or later if someone is making sandwiches or cooking pasta or ... using the same cloth by accident the person will get glutened...

BUT its not really an accident..its a calculated risk.... actually many people just don't want to address that risk so they pretend and self delude its safe.

So please if you are sharing a gluten kitchen willingly - as a convenience someone is poisioning someone.

If you want to talk about rape... well what about a husband who loves his sandwiches for work and insists on making them on "real" bread, the mother of the celiac child who still shares a kitchen... or buys pre-packaged food?

What of the doctor who convinces a patient with positive blood tests to continue eating gluten to get a biopsy which will confirm?

Hello everybody. I'm feeling a bit better emotionally, but not physically. Can someone explain how to go about following the "elimination diet"? Also, I never realized that liquid immodium has gluten! I just figured it is faster acting becasue it's a liquid! Also, I'm sorry for the long delay in responding/posting. I live in NJ and we had a horrible storm and I spent the last 30 or more hours bailing and pumping water out of my flooding basement! I was still having stomach problems and I didn't get any sleep. What a mess, but what can you do?

Walter a big thing works for me is the sub-lingual immodium....

One thing to explain (facts are normal, I'll make clear when its my interpretation and beliefs)

gluten is classed as a exorphin which means it binds to the bodies endorphin receptors

endorphin controls mood

gluten damages the endorphin receptors

immodium binds to the endorphin receptors

immodium supposedly doesn't damage them

I believe a large part of the depression indiced by gluten is actually withdrawal... the receptors are damaged and so the body can't regualte its moods and we feel like crap at the same time so the mood that dominates is .. well feeling like crap... and that extends to about yourself, about life.. etc .

This seems to be how it affects me.... usually you feel crap so the body makes more endorphins... but in our case the receptors are damaged so they are not actually effective. We can sink low but we can't go to the happy extremes... because our whole endorphin release and adsorbtion is outa whack...

This isn't a great help to you right now but as soon as I think I might have been glutened I take 2 sublingual immodium.

Its the fastest route into the body into the blood and hopefully beats the digestion part.

My theory is get the immoium in 1st... keep the endorphin receptors blocked while the gluten passes by...

Its real hard judge exactly how well this works ... but I really think it helps a lot... its a bit inconvenient to be blocked up if it was a false alarm but the earlier the better... I honestly find not having to spend all the time on the loo as a beneficial side effect...

the depression part is way more important to me....

As I think about this, cheating is the best word for cheating. I have never thought it good to put a pretty face on something bad. If you want to cheat yourself of life, that is your decision.

I agree completely....

And in the end the worst type of cheating IMHO is that against yourself....

My daughter has been gluten-free for about 3 weeks since positive biopsy (just turned 9). She never had any GI symptoms and I'm not sure if behavior issues are gluten related or not.

The only way you will find out is following the diet.....

I'm confused on a whole bunch of things now, just when I thought I was doing okay figuring this gluten-free stuff out. Celiacs is so much more overwhelming than I anticipated -- the more you learn, the less you realize that you know.

We all started out that way.... and that includes some of the very very knowledgeable people who will answer your post....

Before I go on.... what I have to say is that there is no such thing as 100% risk free (if you don't own your own farm...)

Its simply not possible.... so everyone has to deterimine their own risks.....

However.... and this bit is really really important....

Until your daughter actually manages to get completely gluten-free for a significant* time its very very unlikely she will be able to work out what reaction came from where.... (*significant varies but its somewhere over a month)

One thing that never stops being confusing is the ability for symptoms to show up after lying dormant for weeks...

For your daughter its doubly confusing if she either thinks she has no GI symptoms or actually has no GI symptoms....

I might sound stupid to say the thinks she has no symptoms.... and this is the problem... nearly all of us that go 100% gluten-free for a while actually discover symptoms we never realised we had... its the nature of celiac disease that it builds up so gradually over years and even though a single event can "trigger" a certain set of symptoms we then discover things we thought were just normal ... GI symptoms get a special mention because its not exactly info that's discussed...

We don't get into school work monday AM and ask "hey how were your bowel movements this weekend?" We rarely ask friends "hey do you sometimes just really really loose control and poop yourself while running for the loo?" ....

When I was at home I used to be SO embarassed I used to hide my pants and wash them then hide them under the bed until try until dry so I ecould put them in the wash....

1. Is reading the ingredients NOT enough to determine if gluten-free? I just obtained a list of "safe" manufacturers (ie those who disclose any gluten) from another forum here. Does that mean I should be calling/emailing all other manufacturers to ensure that artifical/natural flavors or other ingredients are gluten-free? What about manufacturing lines, does that matter too?

This is your call.... I hate adding to your confusion from day 1.... but... you should realise and decide for yourself.

I'm going to give you the most extreme example.... because like I say there are no absolutes so giving you one end you can objectively look inbetween???

One company that say's it will "never knowingly hide gluten" is Kraft... Kraft are owned by Phillip Morris tobacco although the parent company recently changed its name its the same company... they just kept the name for tobacco products and created a new umbrella....

Im not going to put links because you (and your daughter) should check this yourself and not take some random guy on the internet's word for it....

google "who owns kraft" for instance... it would need to be an absolutely enormous haux for someone to have set up ther parent company corporate website ...maintain it and not get sued ....

OK so the same company stood in front of grand juries, senatorial commisions and stated catergorically "The is no linbk between tobacco smoking and lung cancer"

Next... read the wording.... I underlined the one I think is important. Ask someone you know with legal training what recourse you would have if you bought a product which you then found out (though how you would other than being ill is not so simple) contained gluten?

The company are pretty likely to just say... oh our manufacturer didn't tell us. It doesn't mean they asked nor required it...

Indeed it would be perfectly legal I guess to ask the supplier to NOT tell them.... and even if... if if they knew... what legal recourse do you actually have?

2. Cross contamination - we are not a gluten-free house. Most dinners are totally gluten-free except pasta. I prepare my DD's food (lunch/breakfast) on one side of the stove, ours on the other, don't mix spoons, separate butter, etc. But I'm a bit confused on cleaning up such as wiping the countertop. Do I use two separate cloths, and keep one sink gluten-free? I try to put all items in the dishwasher so that they are sterilized with very hot water. I use a plastic cutting board for gluten-free foods, but am still using wooden spoons (that go in the dishwasher). We have a separate shelf in the fridge, plus two other gluten-free shelves.

Gluten isn't sterilized.... its not alive, it can't be killed and made harmless short of incineration of chemically reducing it...

Seperate dishcloths is a good start... but if you bake using normal flour then gluten will get all around the kitchen... As a example a can of tomatoes with no gluten in are not gluten free when they are in the same cupboard as flour... the risk of CC is present... just reaching for the can with a tiny amount of flour on the outside and your hands are now contaminated... the onion you go on to chop etc. then all become contaminated...

Sorry... I know this sounds extreme....

3. What are the differences in labeling in Canada and US? I'm in Calgary, Alberta and I'm not sure when reading here what really applies to me as a Canadian re listing ingredients.

I'll leave that to Canadians.... we have plenty

I'm sure that I am accidently glutening my DD because I'm still confused on too many issues. My daughter was totally excited to have a Wendy's Frosty -- we call them malts and she thinks it is so funny she can have a "malt" (she knows about the big gluten ingredients to avoid) but can't have Kellogg's Rice Krispies. She has a very good attitude about it right now and is extremely cooperative (but does refuse to eat any gluten-free food we purchase that she doesn't like, which has been quite a bit!)

I think your one statement shows you are ready.... I read the post first which is why I just "gave it to you" ....

Your already past the midpoint hurdle... which is accepting that gluten-free doesn't mean wiping the crumbs of a burger or picking out the croutons...

It took me probably nearly a year to finally accept what the docotrs and nutritionist said was just bull ...

We so want to beleive its so easy.... and the majority of the medical profession really are clueless... its almost amazing you managed to get a diagnosis so early...

Its not that MD's want to hurt us... they just never had to consider it personally.... just to illustrate this.. take something innocuous sounding like soy sauce... probably 90% of the general public presume its made from soy.. its seems so obvious yet nearly all commerical non specialist stuff is 50% wheat...

BUT.... this isn't the real problem... its relatively easy to buy gluten-free soy sauce.... but its very easy to forget that any food with soy sauce in it therefore contains "hidden gluten"....

However.... this isn't the end... when you consider CC that means all these "products" are capable of CC....

So if for instance your at a resto... they might be really careful about bread/pasta.... but not realise that the soy sauce contains gluten and use a spoon etc. to stir something or the same cloth they wiped up some spilled soy sauce with....

The same goes at home... its the less obvious things that tend to cause CC because its easier to be REALLY careful with the obvious...

flour is an exception.... its obviously gluten but its nature just transfers it about... even vacuuming is going to fill the air with it to be breathed in and anything solid we breath in end up in our GI tract...

This might sound extreme.... if you work in an office with a laser printer or photocopier ask the tech.... if you vacuum up the spilled powder with a normal vacuum cleaner a significant amount just comes out through the exhaust... its the same principal..

Someone has come up with second hand gluten to replace the term cross contamination. I think it is a wonderful suggestion and has my vote.

Making it sound nicer really isn't going to help at all.

Last night on the way back from the station some guy tried to get onto the metro for free by pushing up on some girl going through the turnstyle....

She got all upset (well when his **** is touching her ass I'm not that surprised) ... but apart from that do you want someone who is self evidently a thief to be in close proximity and touching you?

The girl told him to back off and he wouldn't... he insisted he let her through with him... and she argued that she didn't want a thief that close... and the guy gets all angry at being called a thief????

Im not a thief he's shouting, I just don't have a ticket...

You can call it faredogding or we could make up a nice friendly term.... at the end of the day they guy is a thief and should be treated like one.

Anyway the point is Parisians are so used to fare dodging they don't even blink.... even the police just ignore it (there were actually 6 of them watched the whole incident without even moving) and its estimated at any given time 1/3 of the people on the metro are there illegally.

{actually this is OT but .. this is the great part... faredodging is actually encouraged for repeat offenders - the first time you get caught it costs 80 Euro's... 40 to open a "file" and 40 for the fine.... subsequent times they only pay 40??}

So instead of cheating you can say gluten vacation.... obviously its less harmful than cheating because it sounds nicer?

We can go a step further and encourage gluten vacations as well.. we could call the gluten-free diet something that sounds nasty like the flavorless diet or diet for people with no life. And we can go into resto's and look for the menu items marked "suitable for people with no life"

"I know I repeated it.....

Anhauser/Redbridge are more than welcome to put out a public statement and declare if their lines are dedicated or not....

Regardless of their "legal" excuse.... they are perfectly at liberty to run analyses and publish the results on their website...

Indeed the whole excuse is bull**** because if it is truly 100% gluten-free all of the time then its 100% gluten-free... whatever other legaql terminology they use noone is going to stop them saying "This product contains less than 1ppm gluten by analysis" if it does...

As an analogy mineral water companies do this all the time.... "

FYI, just so there is no confusion. As of April 16, 2007, there is no legal standard for what "gluten-free" is and/or means in the USA.

Someone could put gluten free on a label and fill the container with wheat flour (though a negligence claim could be made for misrepresentation probably)

Just throwing that out...

Yep but it doesn't stop them publishing an analysis just like on the side of mineral waters or making a statement about dedicated lines.

To be fair with them its quite possible they are actually converting production lines or even building new ones and they are possibly in some interim position...which is perhaps why they are being a little coy with hard information.

The legal definition and customer confidence are two seperate matters.. and I guess its worth pointing out that although a legal definition exists in Europe I have never heard of a single case of anyone being prosecuted under it yet I have heard of many occaisions when random testing of a specific product has shown it to exceed the legal definition.

At the same time... I think the Americans should think about this with regards the new legislation....because for a legal definition there can really only be one which is enforcable ... the ones that actually says gluten free is gluten free. Any other definition will be open to leeway and speculation... if its set at 200ppm manufacturers will aim for 200 and on occaision cross it... indeed its my belief they actually aim for the 200 even when they don't need to...? The rare but occaisional analyses I saw seem to show specialist gluten-free products either have no detectable gluten or 200 ppm or very close....

When the limit for specialist gluten-free items was switched from 200ppm to 20ppm many of the products, previously using wheat starch that the total product had <200ppm suddenly (it seemed) completely switched recipes to no wheat... I guess this could be partly consumer demand but I think its important to differentiate between products actually marketed as gluten free and products which are basically accidentally gluten free...

gluten-free is a fast growing market segment... the numbers are pretty inviting from a marketing POV... since the present diagnosis rate is something of 1:x0000 (it was 5000 its probably less now) and the actual screening incidence is 1:333.

Companies that get in early and establish themselves will have a considerable advantage as the market develops... however they will also try and make that market one of maximum profitability... its what companies do... it is in their interest to aim for the least stringent tests and highest limits while still being able to target a specific market sector.

I'll let you all know the results when I get them. It's of course possible that I'm wrong about the gluten contamination as I have many sensitivities - but it sure did have all of the trademarks of gluten-sickness, foggy head, bloating, smelly diarrhea for days, and DH. PS - Larry, I'm a diagnosed Celiac with DH and have 10 years of gluten-free experience.

With all due respect to you when I weighed this up I didn't actually really consider your reaction as anything more than a trigger to look at the statements they made ....

You could have been glutened elsewhere or have a tummy bug (I'm not saying you did) I just mean I tired to consider only the statements they made to yourself and ghulia at different times and their information they provide on the web....

Its not that I don't believe you... its just that statistically its not significant... and the different statements they made at two different times combined with the lack of information on their website stand up alone as inconsistent...

Fever is normal for any baterial or viral infection... which is exactly what the body thinks it has....

Its our inhereted first line defense that in humans is about as useful as an appendix... since most mammals have higher temps normally than we can survive when we have a fever...

Don't feel like you have to buy things that are labeled gluten-free. There are many mainstream foods that are gluten-free, and they are a lot cheaper. I do most of my shopping at the regular grocery store (been the the gluten-free store maybe once or twice this year). It does take some research to find them, but you'll get the hang of it quickly.

Yep that's what I tried to say earlier....

As soon as you buy anything that is labelled gluten-free it comes with a price premium... I buy 90% of everything jkust form a supermarket or the local fresh produce... it costs exactly the same being gluten-free or not... for me. with the slight exceptions of gluten-free pasta very occaisionally.

I have to disagree with you, too. Someone wanting to help me know for sure I have celiac is one thing. But playing with my health without my knowledge is quite another. I don't care what the culture in our society is; someone experimenting with my health is never ever acceptable. I also expect people to be respectful of my decisions no matter what the reason behind them. As a vegetarian I would have been very upset if someone snuck meat into my food even though meat doesn't make me sick. This situation is all about respect - or should I say lack of respect.

Its not really the same thing though.... you choose vegetarianism.... and you presumably don't want to eat meat.... that's perfectly fine so long as you don't keep going round all your friends/relatives/XX saying wow... I really miss XX or wow , my health has really deteriorated since.... XX etc. etc.

Anyway.. this isn't lots of standalone parts... I'm writing next... its an overall summary... yes we can argue about component parts... but I would like people to respect my wish to read it all and try and not jump to conclusions until the end.

Like I said before I really think many of our relatives think we are deluded... and deluding ourselves... I for one miss a lot on a gluten-free diet... not so much actual gluten.. I miss not being able to get a hamburger (or tofu burger) when I meet friends and we are having a few drinks... indeed my illness either dictates where they can go or they eat and I don't.... my girlfriend rarely gets to eat out with me... and it creates situations for her at work.... such as when they have a staff meal... and she feels guilty about going when I was also invited but can't.... and every so often I really do miss REAL pasta.... because the gluten-free stuff just isn't the same as handmade pasta by luigi's mother.... Its not so bad compared to pasta you buy in sitres but its really not the same as home made fresh pasta with (OK ill stop now)

Please keep reading..... though....

The point is that many many MD's will tell you you can't possibly get glutened sharing a strainer... we know they are wrong... but there is far more published in total suggesting a little doesn't hurt than there is saying you will get ill from sharing a strainer.

Bear with me... this is true even in the large majority of hospital's ... in the UK the coelaic society actually writes articles saying how 200ppm is fine and cross contamination isn't really important.... and that is to tens of thousands of celiacs and advising government regulation.... they actually fought long and hard to prevent better labelling of food.... because they said it would confuse celiacs....

I actually would put it to you that if you went to a conference of enterologists and asked 500 of them probably less than 20-30 would say you can get glutened by sharing a work surface.... indeed the majority really seem to beleive you can pick croutons out of your salads and brush the crumbs off your burger....

Just consider for a moment.... WE ALL KNOW....

Now please don't get me wrong, I still think this shows a complete lack of respect...

but the fact that the hubby probably really really beleived it was impossible and could have asked 10 MD's and be told it couldn't possibly hurt.... does mitigate it to some extent... not make it correct...

I have a friend on very strong medication (she lost 1.2 her thyroid) and isn't meant to drink..at all.. she drinks at least 2 bottles of wine a day... and often passes out and often gets violent... I know she tells her MD she doesn't drink at all.

We have been known on occaision to water down her wine, usually after the first bottle she can't tell what she's drinking .... and this is perhaps also a lack of respect... but she refuses to deal with the problem and can be very offensive and violent.

Should we take wine away from her? She's an adult? I guess our justification is her judgement is so impaired someone has to ???

Perhaps we should put her in a taxi but last time we did that she had a fistfight with the driver??? Perhaps we should tell her MD.. same problem ??? We could leave her at home and not invite her... and then someone will get called by her neighbours at 3AM when they find her unconcious on the stairs again covered in vomit... seriously its hard work respecting her right not only to harm herself but to harm others.

The point that non of us really know here is if the husband really truly beleived it would do no harm and that it would prove to angel42 that she is deluded and mentally impaired.

I don't think that shows respect, she can probably sue for poisioning and win.... but she needs to decide for herself...

I don't know her medical history but I do know mine ..... I know I have said and done things when glutened in the past I now view myself as being mentally impaired.....

I know many of us have stuggled with families and friends who don't beleive us and think its all in our heads...

So I think it makes a difference.... basically if he was trying to test or if he was trying to prove to her she is deluding herself...

I AM NOT SAYING THAT MAKES IT RIGHT... I'M SAYING IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

That's a lot of speculation over something that one person reacted to, especially since we don't know 100% for sure that the reaction was specifically gluten-related.

This is the first time a really good gluten-free beer has been created, and it's the first time a gluten-free beer is suddenly widely available to American Celiacs (I'm not sure if they sell it in other countries). They even sell something at Whole Foods now called a "Gluten-Free Party Pack." It consists of four Redbridges, two New Grists and two Ramapo Valleys for 9.99 (that's actually cheap for gluten-free beer )

A lot of people read this stuff we write on the internet so let's not put all of the aforementioned awesomeness at risk by making other people paranoid until we get the results back from rh4 regarding the gluten content of the beer. Just my random two cents

Forget the reactions, unless either the people who posted the information they were told are lying or the people giving it to them ...

I really can't see the first one, the second one.... well it doesn't matter in a way.... since we can't do anything about it...

by which I mean if Redbridge are not telling the truth ... then they are not telling the truth...

Why would they start off saying its made on dedicated lines.... right at the beginning ?

guhlia got told it was made on dedicated lines, right at the beginning ... and she also got told this was why supply was patchy.

rh4 far more recently got told its not made on dedicated lines but they clean the equipment inbetween...

Given the number of people enjoying it that extra production must be coming from somewhere?

So for me it comes down to speculation.... why would they tell one person one thing and another something different... and where is the extra production coming from?

The point is food and beverage companies switch production facilities all the time to cope with supply... and Anhauser have all of the equipement and already available... almost everyone seems to like the stuff ... so it doesn't seem so speculative that demand exceeeded supply...

However the reason I said this is really more overall not just about the beer.... because we often have products someone reacts to etc. Lay's would be an example...

We end up with threads of "I eat them and don't react" and "well I tried them and did" ....

On the whole that doesn't tell us much.... ???

A lot of people read this stuff we write on the internet so let's not put all of the aforementioned awesomeness at risk by making other people paranoid until we get the results back from rh4 regarding the gluten content of the beer. Just my random two cents

Yes I agree.... and that is why I think in general.... but especially when a product is made on shared lines its a bit of a crap shoot...

In general I prefer to stay away from this kind of product ... but that doesn't mean I won't risk it... if its what's available.

If totally at random I make up a figure of a production run of a product, be it lay's or redbridge being 100,000 units then depending on the risk etc. I would have to be really unlucky to buy one of the first 500 off the lines.

I do eat out at resto's as well.... and sometimes despite doing everything I could like last week I get caught out....

Indeed my chance of getting caught out from a resto visit (even when they do understand and try really hard) has got to be way more likely than a single bottle of beer made on shared but cleaned lines or a single packet of chips.

Hence I really think either I wouldn't have a problem with as a one off.

When I think its important is when the product is a regular product.... something we consume daily or nearly daily. If you bought a crate of RedBridge and had one after work each day then if you got a "bad crate" your going to be glutening yourself a few times and reasonably frequently. If it happens to be lay's its the same.... To me the most frustrating and confusing part of gluten-free is stuff that you put onto your "safe list" that varies in gluten-free quality....

As Ive said a lot of times..I went through a phase where I ate plain tortilla chips almost daily.... the ingredients plainly said corn meal, salt and water... and I went through a REALLy bad phase.... I cut out almost everything from my diet and I got really really dangerously skinny to the point lots of friends were telling me to see a Dr. but I was just to down and depressed at the time (as it happens as a result of the gluten)....

I literally scared myself into not eating hardly anything.... I was to depressed to do proper shopping or take food into work so I used to go to the shop round the corner and buy the "safe items" almost daily.... I was eating so much soft fruit I had to add something with some extra fibre ....

Eventually someone suggested I change the diet and stop eating the tortilla chips.... this is when I started to climb out of a very deep hole... A year later perhaps labelling laws changed and the same torilla chips had a new label..."made in the same factory as gluten containing products, may contain traces of gluten" (or something very close to that)...

I had a very bad time, its before I came here.... but I strongly beleive the root of the problem was

I had put a risky product onto my safe list and so was consuming it regulary.

A lot of people read this stuff we write on the internet so let's not put all of the aforementioned awesomeness at risk by making other people paranoid until we get the results back from rh4 regarding the gluten content of the beer......

I know I repeated it.....

Anhauser/Redbridge are more than welcome to put out a public statement and declare if their lines are dedicated or not....

Regardless of their "legal" excuse.... they are perfectly at liberty to run analyses and publish the results on their website...

Indeed the whole excuse is bull**** because if it is truly 100% gluten-free all of the time then its 100% gluten-free... whatever other legaql terminology they use noone is going to stop them saying "This product contains less than 1ppm gluten by analysis" if it does...

As an analogy mineral water companies do this all the time....

If they are doing the gluten-free thing half correct and have done any market research.. they must realise that dedicated lines would be important for many of the consumers. However they fail to mention this so far as I can see on their website....

I personally prefer to be safe than sorry, especially on "staple" items....

So yep a lot of peple read this.... a lot of people can read this and bring up these questions to Redbridge. Meanwhile people can vote with their wallets or their email (and even good old fashioned post or telephone)... if they decide ... they can either issue statements or not but one thing is certain they won't do it unless enough people demand it OR they would already be doing it.

Given they have a dedicated website for RedBridge their customer base must be pretty much celaics and gluten intolerants. Its not like say Kraft who have thousands of products with only certain ones OK... its a whole seperate product aimed at gluten intolerants. Taking this into account the website says very little....

However for this to be effective people need to be asking the same or similar questions....

Is it made on dedicated lines?

Do you test the output and what detection level...

On the whole (it seems) you prefer to take a risk until the company chooses to either tell you or not? Lots of people will have that opinion too (we all have to decide the extent of our own risks) but some people choose to minimise their risks...

Many people simply want to believe its gluten-free.... I could pay personally to analyse 100 bottles at a certifed lab and get positive tests for gluten and some people would still choose not to believe it...

Incidentally we could actually do this ourselves, GIG could do this .. etc. instead of sending a suspicious bottle back to them we could jointly pay to have it analysed in a lab... but still people would choose not to believe....

As an example the Mcdonalds website has the analysis report for the oil used for the fries.... it says in black and white that proteins from wheat are detectable in the oil.... I won't say it says it in plain english because it doesn't... its pretty well hidden after the ELISA tests which were negative.... but it does actually say it....

Yet there are people on this board who time and time again say its gluten free.

The exact same can be said for grain alcohol.... the SAME people (on the whole) misquote or selectively quote the GIG statement and deliberatly leave off the part that says "it is not suitable for those on a strictly gluten-free diet" .... (tha't s not a quite its what I remember it saying)... but when yopu copy and paste you do have to decide where to put the mouse....!!!

I could be critical and say they just want to hurt people.... but I seriously doubt that is it.. they just don't WANT to believe it and they tell themselves its OK... and by encouraging others to do the same they get to be part of a larger group that doesn't want to believe the analysis...

I agree. I can't think of a better way to put it or anything else to add.

I don't disagree.... but its a very fuzzy area....

I'm sure my mom lied about not hiding mashed of vegetables when I was a kid for instance...

There is of course a world of difference between slipping someone some mashed and hidden greens and giving an adult celaic gluten but I think we the sufferers see that gap a lot wider?

As many of us know for instance it can be painful to watch an adult self-harm, be it through alcohol or over eating or drug use?

Lets take an (almost) hypothetical situation.. a dear friend who's doctor has told them they are going to die very soon if they do not eat less bad cholesterol and fats and ..... is coming over its his birthday and your cooking for him...

You make a simple starter he loves, buffalo mozeralla and parma ham...

At which point are you overstepping the mark? Trimming extra fat of the ham? using a low fat mozeralla?

Its his own life?

So next course cos we didn't actually add someothing you use low-fat creme fraiche....?

This has additives... often guar gum or xanthan (and sometimes here freakin gluten)

Ideally of course you should tell him in advance but his wife begs you not to?

Now what you don't know is my friend is allergic to walnuts....

What I think we all (mostly) object to here was the "testing" .... and lack of respect.... and I can't disagree... but I think also you have to remember that people who "don't get it" literally don't get it....

They might believe really and truly that we are making life difficult for ourselves and wasting our lives....

I still think its disrepectful - no excuse for that but I do think looking from the other side they might really think they are helping ....

ack, Im skirting..... OK .. I'll just spit it out....

They think our judgement is impaired.... and some of us in our pre-gluten-free days probably gave them reason from time to time to think that!

If your mother falls down stairs and bangs her headbut insists she's OK. and asks you not to... do you call a doctor?

Its a hard call.... if you really truly beleive the bump on the head has impaired her judgement and she really needs a doctor I am not going to blame you...

This "testing" is somewhere between those extremes IMHO.... I think most people would call the Dr with the head wound... and I think most peple wouldn't deliberately test if something poisioned someone....

Just as a note of caution.... how many people here thought laxaid was a good solution to in work glutening a while back?

Its not so different but WE view it differently....

Azul, I would second everyone here about reducing if not eliminating your dairy intake, and never allowing it to reach that point again. Milk should not be taking the place of necessary water in your diet, you should be providing your body with clean water all day. On the other hand, after you've given your body some time to repair, I higly recommedn RAW milk, especially goat's milk. Pateurized dairy is no good for anyone. Traditional cultures have been consuming dairy products straight or fermented for thousands of years, including the notoriously long-lived Jewish people, and it was never pasteurized. Modern milking procedures have made it quite safe for healthy adults, which you are. As to replacing anything with soy, here's a link regarding it: Open Original Shared Link

Hope that worked. And glad to hear you haven't been spending all of your recent past in the bathroom!

Hmm. just some clarifications ....

I' m not against RAW milk, especially not sheep or goats (or good quality dairy) but AFAIK cow milk hasn't been consumed for that long and certainly not as a primary milk source (perhaps you mean that and Im misreading but then still worth clarifying)

If you think about it just take any biblical or torah text.... calves were rather rare... and not common items (indeed rather prized) wheras sheep and shepherds were the everyday source of milk.... or you can look it up

It was basically the same in Europe from the Celtic migration through to more or less modern times...

Dairy cattle are an even more modern invention than cultivated wheat..(and still rare in many countries like France).. even when diary milk was drunk it was usually "spare" since the calves need to be killed to maximise milk yield and calves were too valuable to do that... remember cattle up till the late 19C were largely oxen and used for field work in Europe...(or European buffalo)

Even though I try and stay clear of dairy 90% of cheese that I do eat is goat or sheep and unpasturised... and I guess this is because a smallish amount of dairy milk makes me uncomfortable and bloated...

I don't actually buy milk (my girlfriend does though) and I sometimes have a drop in coffee but that's about it. (perhaps once a week?)

I hope you are feeling better today--so sorry you were feeling so lousy yesterday. Any possibility that you had a stomach virus on top of all the other problems?

Hang in there.

I dunno except he could be me when I've been glutened....

Walter .. this sounds so far away right now! IT GETS BETTER....

DO NOT MAKE ANY IMPORTANT LIFE DECISIONS WHEN GLUTENED!

Realising its a reaction and you will get better very soon is perhaps the most helpful thing I can say...

Take some immodium tablets (not liquid which apparently contains gluten) just to give yourself some respite.... get some rest as in sleep and some rest for your intestines....

I know this feeling sucks... you probably can't sleep.... and your worrying about stuff you certainly can't doi anything about right now....

I'd pretty much say the two are about equal.....

They are both probably good to give up.... but also its not like gluten in that cutting down is also useful.. at least until you actually provoke a full blown intolerance....

My personal opinion... is since so many celiuacs do develop intolerances to them both... I take them in extreme moderation...soy more than milk simply because I love cheese.... I fugure if Im going to have one or the other I might as well really enjoy it...

but overall I try and limit my intake of both....

If I go for sushi I'll take my gluten-free soy ,,, (also it seems fermented soy like sauce/tofu) is less bad...

If your posting this in response to anothe rpost of mine then you should of course wait for other opinions because that is all this really is... there is lots of evidence for celiacs developing dairy and soy intolerances and its generally believed that eating a LOT of a potential intolerant food can provoke an intolerance... so I just try and keep neither as a major source of protein/nourishment in my diet...

Hi! I just learned that my son, who is 5 is having issues with yeast elimination and absorption and we must become gluten-free; which will hopefully also help my other son who has ADD. I have purchased a probiotic for children and Candidase for the yeast. I am doing this alone because the doctor's are not helpful, they want to put him on more medications. What other supplements would you suggest?

We went to the store to select gluten-free foods and was shocked there are not more options. Do you have any suggestions on where to go or is there somewhere on the Internet to order gluten-free foods?

Any advice would be very helpful and greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks!

Adina

Adina, the biggest source of gluten-free everything is simply fresh food (with the obvious exception of gluten) .. in general don't get too caught up in the marketing side... (my mom did that) .. some stuff might seem convenient .. I find it less so because you limit yourself to certain brands and items... its also a bit dangerous in that you then start using these as staples so if one of them isn't 100% gluten-free or gets contaminated, changes recipe or one of 20 other possibilites your stuck....

The worst part though is you can be poisioning yourself regularly without knowing... and this can be both frustrating and confusing on top of making you feel like poop.

I buy a few 'conveneience foods' but really hardly ever... perhaps 1/month... some gluten-free bread or pasta... 90%+ of what I eat is just normal meals that happen to be gluten-free or are easily adapted to gluten-free....

Baking gluten-free is a bit of an art.... but you can buy mixes or the basic gluten-free flours but there are really very few recipes can't wasily be adapted and taste just as good....

Google is great... sometimes I just google "recipe" and what happens to be in the fridge! It takes a bit of practice but really not so much and instead of convenience meals I buy tupperware and freeze extra portions... (I especially like the freezer direct to microwave stuff)...

Also need to keep an eye on things like anemia and other nutritional issues that are common in both vegetarians and celiacs!!

Its really worth noting that and other deficiencies because being a vegiac and celiac they will compound and what was marginally OK can easily drop below...

and as usual ... (my tired old warning) lots of celaics develop otrher intolerances... especially dairy and soy... so whereby I wouldn't say avoid them like gluten I think its at least sensible to try and not make them staples or main sources of protein...

In other words celiac and veggie is possible, just needs some work and knowledge to keep it balanced.... but hey gluten-free needs work too.... however celiac, veggie and dairy and soy intolerant is going to seriously limit your choices and make a balanced diet even harder (not impossible... just harder)

Im not veggie but I wouldn't mind.(Ive done it for a couple of years)... I'd really dread being celiac, diary/soy intolerannt AND veggie